Will Adams fall victim to the Peace Process he helped build?

William F

Everybody knew the risks Sinn Fein were taking when they signed up to the Good Friday Agreement. No other understood these risks more than Gerry Adams.

Gerry Adams, like Michael Collins before him, put his life on the line when he signed up for a deal which fell far short of a United Ireland. This threat stemmed from former comrades who saw the Good Friday as a ‘sell-out’. But it is unknown whether anyone would have anticipated the other threat, from the ‘Peacemakers’, who have now arrested the Sinn Fein leader in an effort to silence him and his party.

Throughout Irish history, the British Government has felt the need to silence Nationalist parties when Nationalist stood to gain too much from the democratic process. Famous arrests include that of Daniel O’Connell, Charles Stuart Parnell and even Eamonn De Valera. Yet at times, those arrests have back fired and given support for the ‘cause’ which was never there before.

If worse comes to worst, and the Brits jail Gerry Adams for IRA membership charges, like Michael Collins before him, will he have fallen victim to the peace he signed up to and what are the likely repercussions?

Given the audacity of this arrest, I have a sneaking suspicion that Brits will jail Adams and I think if this happens, it will come at a massive price and a release pending for 2016 will lead to catastrophe for British Rule in Ireland.

maccored

they released him. goes to show it was all bollocks. if they had evidence of IRA membership, they would have charged him on that. they dont have that evidence.

oscarBravo

maccored wrote: »

they released him. goes to show it was all bollocks.

Yes. Because every single time the police release anyone without charging them, that proves conclusively and without a shadow of a doubt that the arrest was politically motivated in the first place.

There isn't a eye-rolling emoticon big enough.

maccored

yes, they arrest politicians all the time during elections. Once you find that big eye rolling emoticon, lend me it so I can also use it.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes. Because every single time the police release anyone without charging them, that proves conclusively and without a shadow of a doubt that the arrest was politically motivated in the first place.

There isn't a eye-rolling emoticon big enough.

RandomName2

maccored wrote: »

they released him. goes to show it was all bollocks. if they had evidence of IRA membership, they would have charged him on that. they dont have that evidence.

When's the last time anyone was successfully convicted for something that happened during the Troubles? It's notoriously difficult process - the prospect of Adams being charged with anything was fairly remote without confession.

oscarBravo

maccored wrote: »

yes, they arrest politicians all the time during elections.

Just so we're clear: do you want all politicians exempt from police questioning during elections, or only the ones you agree with?

RandomName2

maccored wrote: »

yes, they arrest politicians all the time during elections. Once you find that big eye rolling emoticon, lend me it so I can also use it.

Because we all know that the EU and local elections are where it's at. Not presidential elections (*cough*), General Elections or national referenda: no it's safe to say that if you want to destroy Sinn Fein you arrest their leader (who isn't up for election) a month before EU and local elections, a couple of weeks after he has presented himself for questioning.

You see, the only convincing explanation is that it is a conspiracy.

maccored

No. A bit of cop on would be grand though. He was arrested in the middle of an election campaign. Arrested only when he voluntarily went to the station mind you, on a date arranged by the PSNI. Clearly, they didnt have enough evidence to put out a warrant. Considering that, they could have asked him to drop in to them when the elections werent going couldnt they? Before or after for example. Like, it wasnt as if they had any urgent reason to bring him in considering they hadnt enough evidence to instigate a warrant for his arrest.

Then again, considering the anti SF brigade I am currently replying to, I suppose you probably dont actually see how that could be called political policing. Im sure you are hoping the whole affair badly damaged SF. I think you will find it didnt.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Just so we're clear: do you want all politicians exempt from police questioning during elections, or only the ones you agree with?

oscarBravo

maccored wrote: »

Considering that, they could have asked him to drop in to them when the elections werent going ahead couldnt they?

So what you're saying is that the police should base their operational decisions on what would best suit the needs of one particular political party.

If only there was a pithy, alliterative, two-word summary of such behaviour.

maccored

I do agree with you - its a pretty stupid thing to attempt to do alright. Arresting the leader of a party affects how the public think of the whole party btw. Funny how that seems to have gone over your head.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Because we all know that the EU and local elections are where it's at. Not presidential elections (*cough*), General Elections or national referenda: no it's safe to say that if you want to destroy Sinn Fein you arrest their leader (who isn't up for election) a month before EU and local elections, a couple of weeks after he has presented himself for questioning.

You see, the only convincing explanation is that it is a conspiracy.

digzy

maccored wrote: »

No. A bit of cop on would be grand though. He was arrested in the middle of an election campaign. Arrested only when he voluntarily went to the station mind you, on a date arranged by the PSNI. Clearly, they didnt have enough evidence to put out a warrant. Considering that, they could have asked him to drop in to them when the elections werent going couldnt they? Before or after for example. Like, it wasnt as if they had any urgent reason to bring him in considering they hadnt enough evidence to instigate a warrant for his arrest.

Then again, considering the anti SF brigade I am currently replying to, I suppose you probably dont actually see how that could be called political policing. Im sure you are hoping the whole affair badly damaged SF. I think you will find it didnt.

I'd never vote Sinn Fein. But if i was, I wouldn't care one jot about this. Everyone knows he was head man in the ira, friend and foe. No news here.

maccored

As already mentioned - a bit of cop on wouldnt go amiss. If you arrest the leader of a political party in the middle of elections in two areas where the party are running (ie north and south) - especially when you cant actually charge him with anything and the fact he isnt going to vanish into thin air - then you have to expect people to call you up on bad judgement.

oscarBravo wrote: »

So what you're saying is that the police should base their operational decisions on what would best suit the needs of one particular political party.

If only there was a pithy, alliterative, two-word summary of such behaviour.

maccored

Make sure you go to the PSNI with that information as they obviously dont know he was. or are we living in warped view of justice land again?

digzy wrote: »

I'd never vote Sinn Fein. But if i was, I wouldn't care one jot about this. Everyone knows he was head man in the ira, friend and foe. No news here.

Marhay70

Am I missing something or was not the whole thing arranged ages ago? All this talk about arresting a party leader in the middle of a campaign is just hyperbole IMO.
SF will probably benefit from a sympathy vote north of the border as a result of the indignant ranting of Kelly and Mc Guinness, if the police north or south had any intention of charging Adams with IRA membership I think they would have done so long ago.
I reckon any police force in the Democratic world is duty bound to investigate when the possibility of someone's involvement in a serious crime is brought to their attention, no matter who that person might be.

alastair

maccored wrote: »

yes, they arrest politicians all the time during elections. Once you find that big eye rolling emoticon, lend me it so I can also use it.

Well, name me another politician accused by the daughter of a murder victim of culpability in the murder of her mother, where the politician heads up a party involved in the 'disappearance' of both this woman, any many more. A politician named as responsible for ordering the murder by his colleagues of the day. I'm a bit stuck to come up with another name tbh.

alastair

maccored wrote: »

No. A bit of cop on would be grand though. He was arrested in the middle of an election campaign. Arrested only when he voluntarily went to the station mind you, on a date arranged by the PSNI. Clearly, they didnt have enough evidence to put out a warrant. Considering that, they could have asked him to drop in to them when the elections werent going couldnt they? Before or after for example. Like, it wasnt as if they had any urgent reason to bring him in considering they hadnt enough evidence to instigate a warrant for his arrest.

I hadn't readied you were privy to so many details of how the PSNI operate, and what evidence they have or do not have? Impressive stuff.

RandomName2

maccored wrote: »

I do agree with you - its a pretty stupid thing to attempt to do alright. Arresting the leader of a party affects how the public think of the whole party btw. Funny how that seems to have gone over your head.

Oh not at all! Just like the Mahon Tribunal investigation of Bertie Aherne had an effect of the public's perception of FF.

And I suppose it was politically naive of the PSNI, but due process and all that.

alastair

Marhay70 wrote: »

Am I missing something or was not the whole thing arranged ages ago? All this talk about arresting a party leader in the middle of a campaign is just hyperbole IMO.
SF will probably benefit from a sympathy vote north of the border as a result of the indignant ranting of Kelly and Mc Guinness, if the police north or south had any intention of charging Adams with IRA membership I think they would have done so long ago.
I reckon any police force in the Democratic world is duty bound to investigate when the possibility of someone's involvement in a serious crime is brought to their attention, no matter who that person might be.

I reckon McGuinness did SF harm with the whole selective support for policing gaff. It frames just how far the commitment to democracy goes, and doesn't, within SF. And the mural so near Divis was a complete foot in mouth move.

William F

alastair wrote: »

I reckon McGuinness did SF harm with the whole selective support for policing gaff. It frames just how far the commitment to democracy goes, and doesn't, within SF. And the mural so near Divis was a complete foot in mouth move.

As a democratic party, Sinn Fein has a right to 'review' it's position as McGuinness put it but that doesn't mean he speaks for the whole party as such a review would be subject to a vote.

As an independent observer, I think Sinn Fein are firmly wedded to the Peace Process and had a charge been brought, I think rational leadership would have prevailed.

Banjo String

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes. Because every single time the police release anyone without charging them, that proves conclusively and without a shadow of a doubt that the arrest was politically motivated in the first place.

There isn't a eye-rolling emoticon big enough.

And if the DPP do not see grounds or reason to charge him.......

maccored

the fact he was released without charge should have really, you know, give you a hint of their lack of evidence

alastair wrote: »

I hadn't readied you were privy to so many details of how the PSNI operate, and what evidence they have or do not have? Impressive stuff.

maccored

yes you were missing something. Adams let the PSNI know 6 weeks ago that if they want to talk to him, he'd be available. The PSNI then decided to asked him to present himself in the middle of an election. Ergo the whole thing wasnt arranged ages ago.

Makes no odds now really. He's been released and it'll pan out in SF's favour.

Marhay70 wrote: »

Am I missing something or was not the whole thing arranged ages ago? All this talk about arresting a party leader in the middle of a campaign is just hyperbole IMO.
SF will probably benefit from a sympathy vote north of the border as a result of the indignant ranting of Kelly and Mc Guinness, if the police north or south had any intention of charging Adams with IRA membership I think they would have done so long ago.
I reckon any police force in the Democratic world is duty bound to investigate when the possibility of someone's involvement in a serious crime is brought to their attention, no matter who that person might be.

oscarBravo

Banjo String wrote: »

And if the DPP do not see grounds or reason to charge him.......

maccored wrote: »

the fact he was released without charge should have really, you know, give you a hint of their lack of evidence

I would point out that people get questioned by the police on a regular basis; that files get sent to public prosecutors on a regular basis; that charges fail to ensue on a regular basis; and that when these things happen on a regular basis, we don't get politicians screeching hysterically about political policing. It's only when the police have the temerity - the affrontery - the friggin lèse-majesté - to question his holy saintliness that it becomes an article of faith that there is no conceivable motive imaginable other than that the entire basis of policing on these islands consists of nothing more than a conspiracy to undermine the One True Party.

But there would be no point in me pointing those things out, because y'all have your narrative, and there's nothing on this green earth that will ever shake you loose from it.

maccored

Personally i believe this will have ended up being the best ever PR for Sinn Fein in the election. Whatever the reasoning for arresting a politician in the middle of elections - and then releasing him without charge .... thats just worked to SFs advantage. We'll see in the next few weeks.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I would point out that people get questioned by the police on a regular basis; that files get sent to public prosecutors on a regular basis; that charges fail to ensue on a regular basis; and that when these things happen on a regular basis, we don't get politicians screeching hysterically about political policing. It's only when the police have the temerity - the affrontery - the friggin lèse-majesté - to question his holy saintliness that it becomes an article of faith that there is no conceivable motive imaginable other than that the entire basis of policing on these islands consists of nothing more than a conspiracy to undermine the One True Party.

But there would be no point in me pointing those things out, because y'all have your narrative, and there's nothing on this green earth that will ever shake you loose from it.

Karl Stein

oscarBravo wrote: »

I would point out that people get questioned by the police on a regular basis

'People'? Yes.

Party leaders regarding something that happened 4 decades ago by information gleaned from others who are now dead and might have had an ulterior motive?

See that question I've asked? That's not really a question because it's rhetorical - it answers itself.

Phoebas

Adams won't fall victim to the peace process that he helped build, but he might fall victim to the war process that he helped build before that.

Not sure if 'victim' is the correct term.

alastair

maccored wrote: »

the fact he was released without charge should have really, you know, give you a hint of their lack of evidence

Not really. A file is still being sent to the prosecutors office.

alastair

Banjo String wrote: »

And if the DPP do not see grounds or reason to charge him.......

The PPS. If they decide not to bring charges it's because they don't see the evidence as being sufficient to win in court. But that's not to say that they don't have evidence, they may well have lots of evidence, but are still left with broad scope for doubt in a jury. By the nature of the crime, there's no physical or forensic evidence, so it just comes down to which witnesses you believe.

I doubt that there's any real interest in pursuing Adams over IRA membership at this stage. Any charges would have to relate to terrorist acts, not membership.

alastair

Karl Stein wrote: »

'People'? Yes.

Party leaders regarding something that happened 4 decades ago by information gleaned from others who are now dead and might have had an ulterior motive?

See that question I've asked? That's not really a question because it's rhetorical - it answers itself.

You seem to forget that the victim's daughter also claims Adams is culpable in the murder. Name another party leader with those kinds of accusations hanging over them? And accusations that, worryingly, aren't that implausible?

Icecap

alastair wrote: »

Well, name me another politician accused by the daughter of a murder victim of culpability in the murder of her mother, where the politician heads up a party involved in the 'disappearance' of both this woman, any many more. A politician named as responsible for ordering the murder by his colleagues of the day. I'm a bit stuck to come up with another name tbh.

It will interesting to see if the family proceed with a civil trial , as I believe they have intimated .
Presumably this would put all available evidence into the public realm..

maccored

yeah. as i said, released without charge. the file is probably a face saving exercise. If anything comes out of it you might have a point - but it'll never be heard of again. bit like all the 'evidence' linking the ira to the the northern bank robbery. non existant.

alastair wrote: »

Not really. A file is still being sent to the prosecutors office.

Icecap

Now , looking to the conspiracy theory aspect of this ......


Who would have called the timing ?

What could have been the political fallout ?

Has MMcG played into their hands by his precipitate reaction ?

If its true that the 'old guard ' in the PSNI was trying to smear Sin Fein , would they not have considered that it might backfire on them and have the opposite effect .? Or are they not very bright .

maccored

Icecap wrote: »

Or are they not very bright .

You might be on to something there.

walrusgumble

William F wrote: »

Everybody knew the risks Sinn Fein were taking when they signed up to the Good Friday Agreement. No other understood these risks more than Gerry Adams.

Gerry Adams, like Michael Collins before him, put his life on the line when he signed up for a deal which fell far short of a United Ireland. This threat stemmed from former comrades who saw the Good Friday as a ‘sell-out’. But it is unknown whether anyone would have anticipated the other threat, from the ‘Peacemakers’, who have now arrested the Sinn Fein leader in an effort to silence him and his party.

Throughout Irish history, the British Government has felt the need to silence Nationalist parties when Nationalist stood to gain too much from the democratic process. Famous arrests include that of Daniel O’Connell, Charles Stuart Parnell and even Eamonn De Valera. Yet at times, those arrests have back fired and given support for the ‘cause’ which was never there before.

If worse comes to worst, and the Brits jail Gerry Adams for IRA membership charges, like Michael Collins before him, will he have fallen victim to the peace he signed up to and what are the likely repercussions?

Given the audacity of this arrest, I have a sneaking suspicion that Brits will jail Adams and I think if this happens, it will come at a massive price and a release pending for 2016 will lead to catastrophe for British Rule in Ireland.

I do not think that the Brits are that stupid, they are surely aware of history. We don't know if Adams and Co have not, in the past, signed any amnesty for the price of the GFA.

I don't think the British are looking for Adams and IRA charges, more to do with any association , before or after, of the murder of Jean McConville. (obviously both would link, but it is not essential)

Yes, there would be a siege mentality and a "vote to get him out"..

Would not want to be a PSNI member stationed around the Anderstown area ........

catastrophe for British Rule in Ireland, nah. People want peace, they also are now, understandably, thinking with their pockets. In an ideal world, the Adams/McGuinness/Paisely/IRA/UVF/LVF/INLA etc would face off the face of the earth.

You are right though, if Sinn Fein play this cleverly, they may still come out of it without too many bruises.

walrusgumble

alastair wrote: »

I hadn't readied you were privy to so many details of how the PSNI operate, and what evidence they have or do not have? Impressive stuff.

This information was well known to the media. Adams' solicitor has been in contact with PSNI for a while regarding a future meeting.

The Phoenix is one source. And, before you get sniffy on them, it should be borne in mind that LONG BEFORE mainstream media "broke" the news, The Phoenix was reporting and investigating and publishing news on the following topics.

The Smithwhick Tribunal, Sophie Du Plantier and the application by the French to transfer Bailey to France and the problems in the case, Anglo Irish and Quinn, Rehab and Keirns, the North in general and issues at Stormount (ie stalement over bread and butter issues),

That is just a few examples. Suffice to say, they are reliable

It would be fair to say, that this group would be more Republican in its sympathies.


And, normally, you only tend to arrest someone on warrant. Of course, due to his status, it would not have been a smart move for the PSNI.

walrusgumble

RandomName2 wrote: »

Oh not at all! Just like the Mahon Tribunal investigation of Bertie Aherne had an effect of the public's perception of FF.

And I suppose it was politically naive of the PSNI, but due process and all that.

Tribunals are not the same as arrest or facing criminal courts

Face it, if the economy was not warning of meltdown, Bertie would still have had a larger group of supporters or well wishers

People already have their views on Adams, so , it is not like they could take a further nose dive

walrusgumble

alastair wrote: »

The PPS. If they decide not to bring charges it's because they don't see the evidence as being sufficient to win in court. But that's not to say that they don't have evidence, they may well have lots of evidence, but are still left with broad scope for doubt in a jury. By the nature of the crime, there's no physical or forensic evidence, so it just comes down to which witnesses you believe.

I doubt that there's any real interest in pursuing Adams over IRA membership at this stage. Any charges would have to relate to terrorist acts, not membership.

Eh, the evidence has to be strong enough, beyond all reasonable doubt, to support each component of an offence which Adams might be charged for. Eg "knowiningly" or "recklessly" , "with intent"..... That is what a Jury are asked about, does the people fall under the definition of the offence that the defendant is charged with

You can't be arrested if the purpose of same is for a "fishing expedition".

gandalf

The question here is if the tables were turned and a unionist leader with a chequered past was accused of similar crimes would Sinn Fein take a similar position saying it was "dark" policing or would they be straining at the leash demanding action by the PSNI?

I think we all know what the answer would be to that situation.

Police investigations timelines should be decided by the police, not by when it suits those who are being investigated for crimes. Adams may have offered to be interviewed six weeks prior to his arrest but it appears that the PSNI were not ready to talk to him then given they had arrested others and were interviewing them. Maybe those interviews were needed to be completed before they turned to Adams.

I doubt it will effect Sinn Fein in NI as some have said it may aid them by pulling back some of the more hardline into voting for them because now they no longer "like" the PSNI. It will effect them down here because it will remind people of who is in charge of this organisation and what crimes they committed, endorsed or were involved in and the McConville murder was up there with one of the worst committed.

maccored

If a unionist MP was arrested by the PSNI, I'd say most of us would be suffering from shock.

If ANY politician was arrested in the same way during an election, it should be looked at suspiciously. Especially if its initially a visit of the politicians own free will. If there was a warrant, then yes, you might have a valid point, but to stage the whole thing the way they did was pretty shortsighted. I dont think SF are complaining though. Their recent meetings in Belfast and Dublin were packed to the rafters.

gandalf wrote: »

The question here is if the tables were turned and a unionist leader with a chequered past was accused of similar crimes would Sinn Fein take a similar position saying it was "dark" policing or would they be straining at the leash demanding action by the PSNI?

I think we all know what the answer would be to that situation.

Police investigations timelines should be decided by the police, not by when it suits those who are being investigated for crimes. Adams may have offered to be interviewed six weeks prior to his arrest but it appears that the PSNI were not ready to talk to him then given they had arrested others and were interviewing them. Maybe those interviews were needed to be completed before they turned to Adams.

I doubt it will effect Sinn Fein in NI as some have said it may aid them by pulling back some of the more hardline into voting for them because now they no longer "like" the PSNI. It will effect them down here because it will remind people of who is in charge of this organisation and what crimes they committed, endorsed or were involved in and the McConville murder was up there with one of the worst committed.

oscarBravo

maccored wrote: »

I dont think SF are complaining though.

Absolutely. If there's one thing there has been a complete and total absence of over the last week or so, it's Sinn Féin complaining. Not a peep out of them.

alastair

oscarBravo wrote: »

Absolutely. If there's one thing there has been a complete and total absence of over the last week or so, it's Sinn Féin complaining. Not a peep out of them.

Post of the week.

maccored

Yeah, they have no complaints about how the backfired attempt by the PSNI has garnered quite a bit of support for them. No complaints at all about the support.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Absolutely. If there's one thing there has been a complete and total absence of over the last week or so, it's Sinn Féin complaining. Not a peep out of them.

alastair

maccored wrote: »

Yeah, they have no complaints about how the backfired attempt by the PSNI has garnered quite a bit of support for them. No complaints at all about the support.

Pffffft!

The only 'backfiring' I saw was McGuinness exposing just how far SF are prepared to condone democracy and the rule of law. Remain calm folks... 'until' we get the outcome we want.

Still - the 'dear leader' mural was good for a laugh.

maccored

Remain calm until the elections. Thats when we'll see what backfired.

alastair wrote: »

Pffffft!

The only 'backfiring' I saw was McGuinness exposing just how far SF are prepared to condone democracy and the rule of law. Remain calm folks... 'until' we get the outcome we want.

Still - the 'dear leader' mural was good for a laugh.

Lastlight.

One has to wonder if they panicked because Gerry Adams was in a police station being questioned and they didn't know what to do. They completely lost the plot when he was locked up.

So embarrassing with Bobby storey shouting in a way you would think it was North Korea with his pathetic threats thrown into the mix. Martin Mcguinness also let himself down, just when he was growing a better image among some Unionists and some Unionists went a bit soft with him, that is now gone.

alastair

maccored wrote: »

Remain calm until the elections. Thats when we'll see what backfired.

The damage is already done. No need to wait until the elections.

maccored

hahahaha - I'll quote you on that whenevers its all done and dusted. I think its wishing thinking on your part though.

alastair wrote: »

The damage is already done. No need to wait until the elections.

Lastlight.

I don't see how anyone voting can get the pictures of that loud mouthed thug Bobby Storey shouting and sending threats and vote for them. But it is Sinn Fein, they work mysterious ways.

maccored

interesting though that since Adams was released (ie in less that a week) SF had an extra 2,000 facebook likes and 60,000 more youtube views. Obviously its not the same as an election, but more people seem to be tuning into them on social networks.

Lastlight. wrote: »

I don't see how anyone voting can get the pictures of that loud mouthed thug Bobby Storey shouting and sending threats and vote for them. But it is Sinn Fein, they work mysterious ways.

Lastlight.

What that has to do with Bobby Storey using Republican aggression and being a thug is beyond me.

maccored

it shows people dont seem to be as put off with it as you assume

Lastlight. wrote: »

What that has to do with Bobby Storey using Republican aggression and being a thug is beyond me.