Getting in a spin: Why washing machines are no longer built to last

Just thought that I would put this here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27253103

Remember that old washing machine you bought back in the 1980s? The one that seemed to go on for ever?
And then there was the one you bought only a couple of years back, which seemed to give up the ghost more quickly than an ultra-fast spin cycle.
They don't build them like they used to.
Even the industry admits that the lifespan of white goods has fallen. But then so too have prices.

This is one thing that I find very annoying that these items appear to have deliberately shortened life expectancies. In most cases the it would not cost much more to produce something that would last longer, maybe 20-30% more. But the "Quality makes" cost nearly 3 times more than the cheap ones, that's a huge markup!

brightspark

They don't deliberately make machines have a short life in the hope that you will buy the next model from them, after all they have no guarantee that the next machine you buy will be from them.

What is happening is that they are trying to produce the machines as cheaply as possible. So that you buy their machine instead of their competitors.

In order to do that they use lower quality steel of the minimum thickness and lower quality components, all designed to just outlast the warrantee period (any longer and they should have been able to make a cheaper machine, any shorter and they will loose money on the repairs)

Also mass production techniques using rivets or welds instead of bolts etc, means that parts cannot be easily disassembled for repair.

The labour cost of repairing a machine in your home is also probably higher than the labour cost of building a complete machine on the production line, making anything beyond the most basic repairs uneconomic.

Of course the "greener" option would be to purchase an expensive machine and pay for it to be serviced and repaired as necessary.

But the problem with a more expensive machine is are you paying for quality? Or are you paying for marketing, branding or novelties such as over complicated programmers with features few people ever use?

The Red Ace

just after reading the BBC article and I am amused at where it says the the cheaper appliance may last 7 years or less, they dont say how much less, if they were truthful it should have read two or three years plus. Since the production of domestic appliances that were made in the UK and Italy that were common here in Irl. up to 8/9 years ago has stopped, only rubbish is coming in here from places like Turkey and China but then the consumer is more or less dictating this as they are not prepared to pay for quality.Take a 300E washer for instance if you break down the price of it the retailer has c40 euro from it there is 23% Vat and the importer has probably 50e out of it, you are in fact buying a 150E washing machine, Santy was paying more for ones that were made by Lego in the Celtic tiger days. The most of the common brands available here are produced by only a handful of companys, its in their interest to produce stuff that doesent last , it keeps the factorys open. Hoover were in Wales from the end of the 1940s until 2010 and at the height of production had 5400 employees and made appliances that often lasted 15 years plus, now they are made in Turkey and I have seen them nearly cost half their original purchase price to repair them under warranty after a year or two because of the call out charge.The same goes for the most of the other producers. The Germans still make pretty decent appliances but its probably only a matter of time before they farm out the production to cheaper labour countrys to keep costs down as well. The powers that be in Brussels should lay down a law that dictates that a product should last a minium number of years if treated correctly, we hear so much from them about carbon footprint.

rovoagho

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

simplybam

As with everything else in live - you get what you pay for. You can't seriously think that you can buy a washing machine for 300 quid and expect it to last 15 years!

The powers that be in Brussels should lay down a law that dictates that a product should last a minimum number of years if treated correctly, we hear so much from them about carbon footprint.

I would be of the opinion that the products should declare their design life (& serviceability) along with their energy rating, at least then the consumer who decides to buy the cheapest will know that he is likely to have to replace it in say five years so he may decide to pay a bit more to have one last twelve years.

Billy Bunting

brightspark wrote: »

In order to do that they use lower quality steel of the minimum thickness and lower quality components, all designed to just outlast the warrantee period (any longer and they should have been able to make a cheaper machine, any shorter and they will loose money on the repairs)

I think you mean lower quality plastic as most machines these days only use steel on their casings while everything inside is plastic, pure and utter rubbish and in my opinion done to get regular sales, perhaps even a monopoly conspiricy, otherwise why not revert to how they used to be built and get back your reputation of quality that lasts.

brightspark

Billy Bunting wrote: »

I think you mean lower quality plastic as most machines these days only use steel on their casings while everything inside is plastic, pure and utter rubbish and in my opinion done to get regular sales, perhaps even a monopoly conspiricy, otherwise why not revert to how they used to be built and get back your reputation of quality that lasts.

I think there is a forum somewhere around here for conspiracy theories. :rolleyes:

The regular sales argument might apply to razor blades etc., where once you have bought their razor you have to buy more blades to suit afterwards, but it's not relevant to washing machines.

As I said before the manufacturers are producing the machines as cheaply as possible to sell you ONE machine, they can't be certain you will buy your next machine from them!

Ultimately we as consumers are driving the price down and as companies exist to make profits they will make the machines as cheaply as possible.

As to reverting back to making long lasting quality machines? How is the consumer going to know? A more expensive machine isn't always better built.

Once the reputation for building long lasting machines is gone it takes many years to get back, years spent building expensive machines that few customers are willing to pay for, no company can do that easily, and I doubt any want to take the risk that at some point in the future the majority of consumers will choose quality over price.

Billy Bunting

brightspark wrote: »

As to reverting back to making long lasting quality machines? How is the consumer going to know?

By having a meaningful warrenty, a warrenty that the manufacturer wouldnt be building loop holes in to because they can trust their product.

coylemj

Billy Bunting wrote: »

By having a meaningful warrenty, a warrenty that the manufacturer wouldnt be building loop holes in to because they can trust their product.

Sounds great but who's going to be first to do that - the company that will soon be out of business. Once they recognise the brand name, the next thing people look at is the price and with the exception of Miele, the price usually dictates the decision because most washing machines provide the same function and they all more or less look the same. That's what pushes down the price and the quality and durability goes in the same direction.

Jellybaby1

I recently stood in the big white appliance shop looking at a particular appliance.

"Am I getting German engineering here?" sez I.

"You'd be surprised where all the machines are made" sez he.

"So where are they made?" sez I.

"Well, not where you would think", was all he replied.

rovoagho

(General comment, not directed at anyone.)

To be honest, if you're buying white goods based on the brand or the word of a sales person, you deserve all you get. I have a Zanussi washing machine but a Beko dryer, because I invested a pound in a trial subscription of Which magazine, an hour or two reading reviews, and around the same amount of time looking for the best price.

I reckon I've saved myself a lot of grief over the years applying the same principles to most of my purchases. And when something goes wrong, I make myself a polite but firm nuisance until it's corrected. Most people won't bother expending the time though, as far as I can see.

Jellybaby1

I've only got my own experiences to go by. I was married in the 70's and in my naivety was quite surprised to find that appliances don't last forever like my mother's did, though the only appliance she had was a gas cooker built like a tank! Oh but I have learned. I've now gone through several fridges, fridge-freezers, vacuum cleaners, cookers, washing machines and electric kettles. Over the last 45 years I can almost guarantee that all appliances break down just a few weeks or months after the guarantee period runs out. I allow myself only two service call outs after that and then I start looking for new again. Fine when you have the money but now we don't so I just try to keep them limping along as long as I can until I save up the money for a replacement.

It is fairly clear that the manufacturers engineers use a similar brief to F1 car designers, it only has to last until the warranty expires (race ends).

After that we don't care if it lasts five minutes or five years!

brightspark

Deleted User wrote: »

It is fairly clear that the manufacturers engineers use a similar brief to F1 car designers, it only has to last until the warranty expires (race ends).

After that we don't care if it lasts five minutes or five years!

If it lasts longer it means they could have made it cheaper!

brightspark

brightspark wrote: »

If it lasts longer it means they could have made it cheaper!

True, then it's best to keep quiet about those ones

hfallada

British appliances are made to last. My parents are landlords and used to constantly buy the marginally cheaper British brands. But now German brands are quite cheap compared to the British Appliances. You can buy a decent Bosch washing machine for only €400. Even Mieles used to be around £1,200(irish pounds) are now about €800-900. My parent never have issues with German made appliances

My mother Miele washing machine is over 15 years old and does 2/3 washes a day and is perfect. Not one single issue in 15 years. German white goods are good and cheap. Someone in a factory in Germany might only make €550-600 a month full time. Because Germany has no minimum wage laws. This allows German exports to be cheap

I know some Bosch is made outside of Germany. But it only takes 2 seconds to see the made in Germany sign. Germany prides itself on well made goods. It isnt in their interests to have people buying their appliances every 3 years as they are **** quality. It will be destroy their reputation, something far more important in the long run, than short term profits

DGOBS

I bought a Bosch dishwasher (€795) and it lasted 2.5 years, was told by the service guy that it's a rubbish machine with a design problem and have been made almost unserviceable.

So that blows out the theory that more expensive trusted brands are better!

I hence bought a dishwasher that was €259 and is now 3 years and still going!

byte

DGOBS wrote: »

I bought a Bosch dishwasher (€795) and it lasted 2.5 years, was told by the service guy that it's a rubbish machine with a design problem and have been made almost unserviceable.

So that blows out the theory that more expensive trusted brands are better!

I hence bought a dishwasher that was €259 and is now 3 years and still going!

I'm surprised there is a Bosch machine costing that much, as generally, the higher priced stuff is for their other family brands, Siemens and Neff (all part of BSH group).

What make is your current dishwasher? Beko or NordMende?

The Red Ace

hfallada, alas there are no more of the well known brands of domestic appliances made in the UK, DGOBS with regards to your problem with the Bosch d/w repair I would think the greatest issue was likely with the guy that was sent out to sort out the d/w. I have seen more products nearly thrown out by their owners because of poor diagnosis by service guys that's its unbelievable. The likes of Which magazine don't recommend Bosch or any other brand name just or the sake of it. I have worked on domestic appliance repairs for close on four decades, I have handled most brands available here in Irl and I have not yet not found any great design faults in the Bosch etc group of appliances, granted they may not last as long as those made in the 80/90s or earlier. If he could not fix the d/w he should have recommended a replacement in writing after all you were barely out of guarantee, but obviously that wasn't part of his brief. I am surprised that you didn't follow it further considering the price and age of the product. BTW I am freelance with no allegiances

SpaceTime

Miele genuinely builds the machines more like commercial machines. They use much better components but they cost about twice to three times the price of a regular machine.

They are probably the only machines that still have a stainless steel outer tub. They also have extremely high quality bearings and other mechanical components. The machine's also built on a proper chassis rather than just having components bolted to the cabinet.

So, they're effectively a domestic version of a laundrette machine.

The machines actually weigh about twice (or more) as much as a normal machine too. Very heavily built and very good quality.

Bosch and AEG aren't what they used to be. Still upper-end of the market machines, but they're not built like they were 20+ years ago.

hfallada wrote: »

British appliances are made to last. My parents are landlords and used to constantly buy the marginally cheaper British brands.

Almost all of the British appliance brands are gone and all that remains is the trademark.

Hotpoint = Indesit (Italy)
Hoover (Europe) = Candy (Italy)
Belling and Creda = Glen Dimplex (Ireland) and partially to Indesit (Italy)
Servis = Vestel (Turkey)
Tricity/Tricity Bendix = Electrolux Group (Sweden)

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other British white goods makers that are still around.

The only British appliance maker I can think of is Dyson and they only do vacuum cleaners and they're made in Malaysia.

leeroybrown

Unfortunately, it's realistically impossible to provide long-term servicable parts to the home market anymore. The cost of after market repair/servicing is just too high in an economy with high labour costs. I've repaired my washing machine myself a few times but each time it'd have been more cost effective to replace it I couldn't do it myself.

SpaceTime

leeroybrown wrote: »

Unfortunately, it's realistically impossible to provide long-term servicable parts to the home market anymore. The cost of after market repair/servicing is just too high in an economy with high labour costs. I've repaired my washing machine myself a few times but each time it'd have been more cost effective to replace it I couldn't do it myself.

The other issues is that they way the machines are being made the parts are not very serviceable anyway. Everything's a disposable module and some of the control systems can be nearly the price of a new machine.

The only machines that are still being made with very high end parts the 'old fashioned way' i.e. serviceable and long-lasting are :

Miele (very pricy)
Asko (not available in Ireland as far as I am aware) and now owned by some other company anyway so the standards may be slipping.
V-Zug (ridiculously expensive Swiss brand - they've machines for €5000+)

leeroybrown

It's not just the disposable modules. Even the simpler hoses, belts, cables, etc are damn expensive to replace from warranty stocks once you have to pay callout or labour. I looked at this before and realistically for a shared house with four moderate users it still made more sense to buy a cheaper unit with good energy and water ratings. If it breaks out of warranty then I see if the part is available online reasonably and replace if it isn't.

macshadow

Anyone fancy a light bulb that lasts a hundred years?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfbbF3oxf-E

We bought a midpriced Zanussi washing machine in 1989. It more or less quit working in 2004 (we might have been able to rescue it for another year or two, but it was doubtful). We replaced it with a more expensive Zanussi, which is still working slightly more than 10 years later.

We bought a Zanussi fridge freezer in 1996. It wasn't by any means the most expensive on offer in the store. It gave up the ghost last autumn.

When we bought our house, it came with a Philips dishwasher that dated from 1990. We decided it was a good idea to replace it in 2005. We bought a Whirlpool model that was at the cheaper end of what was available in Power City or DID at the time. It does the occasional odd thing (about once a month it'll forget which programme it's running and just stop and beep at us), but it still works.

We bought a tumble dryer in 1996, and it packed in on us in 2010. That was a Candy.

We're still using the gas hob and electric oven and grill that we installed in 1997.

We recently replaced a Philips vacuum cleaner that we got as a present when we moved into our house in 1996. We previously had a Rowenta that we bought in the mid 1980s. My father-in-law still has it as a spare in a workshop in his back yard. And one of our relatives still uses a Sony TV as a spare room backup - that we bought in a "Dublin Millennium" sale in 1988.

We seem to have had a lot of luck with our electrical goods over the years. Maybe that will change in the future.

Except irons. Jaysus, our house is like a vortex of doom for irons. I reckon we've had about 10 or 11 in the last 20 years.

Spanish Eyes

I've a whirlpool washing machine going strong since 1996! never needed a thing. Nothing. It's getting a bit rusty at the bottom now, and will need to be replaced sooner or later. After nearly twenty years, I'm going to treat myself to a Miele..

The dishwasher is also from 1996 an Ariston. Only problem it ever had was the program control needed a new knob. I'm going to keep it when I get my kitchen replaced, and hope it can beintegrated, it has an integrated cover at the moment.



But as for kettles, toaster etc. many many replacements.

SpaceTime

The main reason is very simple. They're very, very cheap.

People forget about inflation when they look at these things.

A washing machine in the 1980s was a very expensive item. The machines were mostly built to the same kind of build quality that only Miele does now and the prices were similarly big.

The other issue is that modern cheap machines offer 1400 and 1600 spins. In the past only very high end machines did that.

The result is cheap bearings and components being pushed to their limits and they fail.

Old cheaper machines often did 400-800 rpm

The other factor is that people want 8kg and even 12kg loads to fit into a standard size cabinet.

Older machines washed 4kg or 5kg at at most and had much softer suspensions and a lot more shock absorbing ability. Slow spins and a very springy drum requires relatively simple engineering compared to 1600 rpm with 10kg of laundry.

If you want a machine that will last 25 years you can still buy a Miele. They're genuinely different build quality. Outer tank is stainless steel, weights are cast iron rather than concrete, shock absorbers and bearings are just much better and the components are generally top notch stuff.

The downside is it'll cost you between 900 and 2000 Euro. At the lower price range you'll also get a rather basic machine but it'll be exceptionally high quality for the price.

The simple reality is you can't make a good quality machine and sell it for a profit for less than about €700 and in the 80s that is the kind of money you were paying when you factor in inflation.

We've become used to buying very cheap appliances made with very cheap components manufactured cheaply in China mostly (even if the final assembly is in Italy or whatever).

The other problem is that previously high quality brands may now just be brandnames applied to cheap machines.

So do your research before shelling out for a badge.

byte

A good post SpaceTime, which I think is pretty much bang-on.

Jellybaby1

Everything is breaking down in our home this year. Had to get a kettle recently. I walked along the row of about 24 kettles in the shop and checked where each one was manufactured....almost all of them were made in China. Only the most expensive ones, three or four, were made in if I remember correctly Spain, France, and possibly Germany but unsure of my memory on that one.

The Red Ace

Space Time good post you have the A to Z of it spelt out exactly as things have happened, I remember servicing the original Bendix washers in the 70s that were made in Liverpool that cost £300 which was half the price of a car back then

SpaceTime

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Everything is breaking down in our home this year. Had to get a kettle recently. I walked along the row of about 24 kettles in the shop and checked where each one was manufactured....almost all of them were made in China. Only the most expensive ones, three or four, were made in if I remember correctly Spain, France, and possibly Germany but unsure of my memory on that one.

It's not even where they're made. Some great stuff comes from China.
It's when they're making to a very low price. That's when you'll have issues.

I try to buy stuff made in the EU where possible though as most of the EU manufacturing jobs are at risk at the moment and we really do need to show a bit of solidarity towards workers in Spain, France, Italy and even Germany. A lot of those kind of previously good 'blue collar' jobs are all disappearing.

The Red Ace

The Red Ace wrote: »

Space Time good post you have the A to Z of it spelt out exactly as things have happened, I remember servicing the original Bendix washers in the 70s that were made in Liverpool that cost £300 which was half the price of a car back then

Considering the build quality of some of the Leyland cars then, it probably lasted longer than the car.

leeroybrown

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Everything is breaking down in our home this year. Had to get a kettle recently. I walked along the row of about 24 kettles in the shop and checked where each one was manufactured....almost all of them were made in China. Only the most expensive ones, three or four, were made in if I remember correctly Spain, France, and possibly Germany but unsure of my memory on that one.

The MacBook Pro I'm typing this post on was made in China and it's probably the best constructed laptop I've ever used. Manufacturing standards in China are pretty high in general. The product design and and materials are where the quality issues are introduced.

leeroybrown

leeroybrown wrote: »

The MacBook Pro I'm typing this post on was made in China and it's probably the best constructed laptop I've ever used. Manufacturing standards in China are pretty high in general. The product design and and materials are where the quality issues are introduced.

A lot of stuff is actually designed to have a shortened life, for example some cheap printers actually have a chip that has a countdown timer in them to "stiff" the printer after it had printed in excess of a pre-set number of pages. Most electronics go to the bin still working, just outdated.

As for most white goods, they only need slightly beefier materials in a couple of key areas to last much longer for a small increase in price. For example a bracket made of 1mm thick steel rather than 0.7mm will never fail when the thinner one snaps and kills the machine.

RichieMag

Hi all, not sure if this is the appropriate thread, but my Bosch washing machine is making some terrible noises during the spin cycle, something like metal grinding on metal. Any ideas?!

(I was going to post a link to a YouTube clip of it but Boards won't let me!)

evolving_doors

The Red Ace wrote: »

just after reading the BBC article and I am amused at where it says the the cheaper appliance may last 7 years or less, they dont say how much less, if they were truthful it should have read two or three years plus. Since the production of domestic appliances that were made in the UK and Italy that were common here in Irl. up to 8/9 years ago has stopped, only rubbish is coming in here from places like Turkey and China but then the consumer is more or less dictating this as they are not prepared to pay for quality.Take a 300E washer for instance if you break down the price of it the retailer has c40 euro from it there is 23% Vat and the importer has probably 50e out of it, you are in fact buying a 150E washing machine, Santy was paying more for ones that were made by Lego in the Celtic tiger days. The most of the common brands available here are produced by only a handful of companys, its in their interest to produce stuff that doesent last , it keeps the factorys open. Hoover were in Wales from the end of the 1940s until 2010 and at the height of production had 5400 employees and made appliances that often lasted 15 years plus, now they are made in Turkey and I have seen them nearly cost half their original purchase price to repair them under warranty after a year or two because of the call out charge.The same goes for the most of the other producers. The Germans still make pretty decent appliances but its probably only a matter of time before they farm out the production to cheaper labour countrys to keep costs down as well. The powers that be in Brussels should lay down a law that dictates that a product should last a minium number of years if treated correctly, we hear so much from them about carbon footprint.

Welllll as you mentioned Hoover...in their defence, We got a hoover washing machine in 2009 ... Going nearly every day , sometimes 3 times a day! (Kids...)
Not a bother, although in saying that, I am waiting for it to go any day.

Saw a TG4 Fíorsceal documentary on it about 2 years ago. Its called Obsolecence . They showed some old Russian guy with a fridge he had since the fifties...still working still the same light bulb in it...

Its a conspiracy Joe.

Buy cheap buy twice.

ianobrien

RichieMag wrote: »

Hi all, not sure if this is the appropriate thread, but my Bosch washing machine is making some terrible noises during the spin cycle, something like metal grinding on metal. Any ideas?!

(I was going to post a link to a YouTube clip of it but Boards won't let me!)

It's probably a small coin stuck. I was terrible for leaving 1 cent coins in the jeans pocket when being washed...

RichieMag

ianobrien wrote: »

It's probably a small coin stuck. I was terrible for leaving 1 cent coins in the jeans pocket when being washed...

Thanks - any idea how I can check and get it out?! And would it not usually go into the filter/coin trap thing?

Day Lewin

When we had a few bob to spare about ten years ago, we replaced some appliances with dearer ones: choosing, for example, a Bosch freezer to replace a second-hand chest freezer, which had in turn replaced a 20-year old Servis?? I kid you not

Bosch freezer - not that great: plastic bits have broken off quite soon
BUT - paying a substantial amount for a Miele dishwasher was SO worth it!! Trouble-free, smooth seam free engineering, runs like a dream - previously i had had three dishwashers with a life span of maybe 5 or 6 years each. [Winner had been the very earliest one, a Phillips, lasted 9 yrs]

Got to vote for Miele but they are so expensive it will be prohibitive for many; However if you get a windfall, they really ARE better value in the long run!

ianobrien

RichieMag wrote: »

Thanks - any idea how I can check and get it out?! And would it not usually go into the filter/coin trap thing?

The one cent coins were a curse for getting stuck between the drum and the casing. I have no idea how they were removed, but I do remember getting a bill for the call-out.....

The Red Ace

Armelodie, my next door neighbour has a fridge that was made by GEC in Dunleer Co. Louth in 1969, its in use since new and nobody has ever had to repair it. (Must get a thread going on how long has your appliance worked/lasted for)

Jellybaby1

Deleted User wrote: »

.....some cheap printers actually have a chip that has a countdown timer in them to "stiff" the printer after it had printed in excess of a pre-set number of pages.

Why isn't that illegal? They are controlling a product long after you have purchased it. If they did that to cars they could be arrested for endangering lives.....okay so a printer won't kill you but, that's OTT, but you know what I mean.

The Red Ace

The Red Ace wrote: »

Armelodie, my next door neighbour has a fridge that was made by GEC in Dunleer Co. Louth in 1969, its in use since new and nobody has ever had to repair it. (Must get a thread going on how long has your appliance worked/lasted for)

I started one a while ago http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55362436
Enjoy

Big Davey

Dyson made washing machines too ! And very good ones I think.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Miele genuinely builds the machines more like commercial machines. They use much better components but they cost about twice to three times the price of a regular machine.

They are probably the only machines that still have a stainless steel outer tub. They also have extremely high quality bearings and other mechanical components. The machine's also built on a proper chassis rather than just having components bolted to the cabinet.

So, they're effectively a domestic version of a laundrette machine.

The machines actually weigh about twice (or more) as much as a normal machine too. Very heavily built and very good quality.

Bosch and AEG aren't what they used to be. Still upper-end of the market machines, but they're not built like they were 20+ years ago.



Almost all of the British appliance brands are gone and all that remains is the trademark.

Hotpoint = Indesit (Italy)
Hoover (Europe) = Candy (Italy)
Belling and Creda = Glen Dimplex (Ireland) and partially to Indesit (Italy)
Servis = Vestel (Turkey)
Tricity/Tricity Bendix = Electrolux Group (Sweden)

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other British white goods makers that are still around.

The only British appliance maker I can think of is Dyson and they only do vacuum cleaners and they're made in Malaysia.