Fianna Fail - their plan is working out beautifully....

jetsonx

FG and Labour have now become associated with pain, hardship and cuts.

In the last 12 months something strange has happened in Ireland. The vitriol against FF seems to have abated. Some people are now even beginning to defend the actions of FF.

FF are playing this very well - like a sly contestant on Big Brother who tries to win by being affable, not rocking the boat and biding their time.

I reckon FF will have the electorate nice and ripe for the next general election - ready for picking.

hatrickpatrick

I personally haven't noticed the vitriol abating much, certainly haven't noticed people defending their actions.
The most common theme I've noticed lately is "FG/Labour have been just as bad as FF. Who the f*ck are we supposed to vote for now?" which is a little different to actively defending FF.

Tabnabs

FG/Lab have very cunningly astutely waited to begin a banking enquiry, where all the FF dirty laundry will be aired, just in the run up to the next GE.

FF are quite possibly the worst and meekest opposition that Dail Eireann has seen in many terms and their vote has collapsed in the largest municipality in the country.

FG/Lab, if they can complete the term in office, should emerge with an economy on the up and unemployment dropping.

Some FF plan...

jetsonx

Insightful post Tabnabs...the "banking inquiry" could rightly fess up FF plans.

Images on computer and TV screens of Cowen, Ahern, Sean Fitzpatrick and other FF-associates a couple of months before the next GE
will bring the memories of FF in power flooding back to people. That could be a the death knell of any FF plans to
regain power.

Davarus Walrus

Martin remains inextricably linked with the worst excess and incompetence of the Ahern and Cowen Governments. Senior Minister and right-hand man of Ahern. It's hard to get rid of that association and it hamstrings the party as a result.

raymon

Fianna Fail's strategy is to wait until the government does something wrong and the try to capitalise on it.

Fianna Fail are not patriots and would love if the country went down the tubes under FG and Lab.

sillyoulfool

FF are the most ineptly led, disorganized, and dis-unified opposition in the history of the Dail.
They cant even agree on the time of day ffs.
In my opinion it is worse they are getting instead of better.

Manach

Well it would have taken nearly an unprecedented display of arrogance and disdain for the voters by the current FG/Lab government to get people to at least re-consider FF: but fair play, they've achieved it.

Good loser

I liked Pat Rabbitte the other day when questioned about the opposition:

'One opposition party ruined the country and the other will ruin it again - if it gets the chance'

RichardAnd

raymon wrote: »

Fianna Fail's strategy is to wait until the government does something wrong and the try to capitalise on it.

That's how most government get elected, especially here. FG and Labour didn't come out on top after the last election by being "better" than FF. Instead, they won simply because they weren't FF. It's voting out, not voting in.

periodictable

sillyoulfool wrote: »

FF are the most ineptly led, disorganized, and dis-unified opposition in the history of the Dail.
They cant even agree on the time of day ffs.
In my opinion it is worse they are getting instead of better.

Idiots like Hanafin, O'Donoghue and Coughlan plan a comeback...was the message not loud and clear in 2011?

SCOOP 64

What happens if we all vote independants?

Mycroft H

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

What happens if we all vote independants?

Even less gets agreed and less gets done.

The_Captain

I get the feeling that Martin's plan is to issue PFO's to all senior members of FF and anyone connected to the former government (excepting himself of course), then bring out a load of kids and say "Hey these guys have never been implicated in corruption scandals and hate property tax! Please vote for us"

But it seems his own party members don't like being told to take their fingers out of the pie.

The Anita Lenihan thing was a joke, a political nobody who has done nothing in Dublin West is deserving of a seat in the Dail in the eyes of the FF elite because of her last name.

And now Mary Hanafin, despite being utterly toxic to voters, will run in the local elections because she doesn't like not having money/power.

road_high

Except her mega pensions...anyone who votes for Hanifan and her ilk require sectioning in my view..that goes for most of FF also.

[Jackass]

I suspect many who voted for FG / Labour in the last general election were voting as much to remove the circus from town that was the FF Government, but with its "rebuilding", many will go back.

The great thing about Irish society is that it's inherently tribal. The majority of households are [insert party name here] households. Their father voted for them, as did their fathers father, and their fathers fathers father. Over the years, people have evolved this towards FF - one main reason being that FF have controlled many of the national media since the foundation of the state, most notably de valera where history was somewhat rewritten. A lot of people vote based on a treaty that was signed almost 100 years ago. They have voted that way since they were 18, and their unborn children will vote that way for their entire lives too. This is all too common in Irish society and the only way to ensure absurd election results and the continued elevation of the incompetent is knowing exactly how 40% of the country, give or take, will vote in 10, 15, 20, 25 or 30 years time.

If you were corrupt or wanted influence in Irish society, why wouldn't you join the FF party for example? We are in extraordinary times where their vote isn't in the 40% bracket, but it mostly always has been and will be again.

I think it's unlikely that FG / Labour will form the next Government and I can absolutely guarantee that FF will be the senior coalition partner in Government, if not after the next general election (although I think they will), then without question the one after that - presumably when the economy is in full swing, and the status quo will be fully restored.

Don't fool yourselves, Irish society is too dumb and too tribal to break the vicious cycle we are in and we have proven time and time again that as a result we are incapable of governing ourselves. That has always been the case and it always will be the case.

padser

[Jackass] wrote: »

I suspect many who voted for FG / Labour in the last general election were voting as much to remove the circus from town that was the FF Government, but with its "rebuilding", many will go back.

This.

For most people, the only prospect worse than the opposition getting into Government was the prospect of electing FF again.

Even with all of FF struggles FG didn't actually manage a particularly strong showing (and given they are the same party FF support should have just transferred over). Labour is not an option for anyone in the centre or right of centre and SF and all the rest of the looney parties are chipping away at their left wing support.

Next election will see FF back in again most likely, and if not 100% guaranteed by the election after. The sad part is, it's actually impossible to look at the Irish political landscape and identify a party that's even remotely deserving of a vote so I guess FF is as good as any and probably better than the looney parties.

sparkling sea

I think the Independents will do very well in the next general election, there are such a wide array of views, however blocking could easily happen.

Shane Ross and co will definitely appeal to right of centre; John Halligan and co to centre; and Clare Daly and co to left of centre.

I don't feel the FG/Lab gov have achieved anywhere near their potential but worse still I feel the voters feel disempowered by both these parties - unfortunately and especially with FG there are non so deaf as those who refuse to hear, FG make the ordinary person feel invisible and Labour just seem to be copper fastening this feeling.

FF are not a credible option for government despite the current governments attempts to make FF look credible compared to them. Sinn Fein, while it seems many people may support them, young males don't vote and the rest of us who do vote will see them for what they are and an establishement party to boot.

Counties that have been neglected will push in strong independent candidiates for the good of their county but there is nothing to suggest Independents in government won't be better then disfunctioning parties that have governed Ireland up until now. In a post democratic Ireland a new era is needed, perhaps the next general election will see a new and more democratic dawn!!

raymon

[Jackass] wrote: »

I suspect many who voted for FG / Labour in the last general election were voting as much to remove the circus from town that was the FF Government, but with its "rebuilding", many will go back..

What have Fianna Fail rebuilt ? What is new?
Do you know what their new policies are?

Have they got rid of people who tell lies under oath in sworn dispositions ?
Have they got rid of people who lodge developer's donations into their wife's personal bank accounts ?

Scofflaw

This is a somewhat depressing thread. I don't think FF had a cunning plan - certainly, they've managed to hive off some of the blame for austerity and the collapse to the current government and the EU, but as far as I've ever been able to make out, their only plan, ever, is to be in government. Everything else is just tactical stuff designed to serve the plan.

And they don't need to plan it, really. As various posters have said, the people who always voted FF will gently slide back into their greasy embrace, telling themselves the party has "reformed" because it says it has, and that FF weren't to blame for all the bad things because they say they weren't. If challenged properly on the first, they bring up the second and disclaim responsibility and thus the real need for reform. If challenged properly on the second, they look grave and say that mistakes were made but they've reformed.

People generally use reason more to rationalise what they've already decided than to make the decision in the first place. Successful politicians are aware of that.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Good loser

Quite likely imo Independents will hold the balance of power after the next election.

Any Govt formed will be unstable as a result. There could be a few quick elections.

Then the electorate will get pissed off with the Independents and turn their back on them.

jmayo

padser wrote: »

This.

For most people, the only prospect worse than the opposition getting into Government was the prospect of electing FF again.

Even with all of FF struggles FG didn't actually manage a particularly strong showing (and given they are the same party FF support should have just transferred over).

Except FG is not the same as ff.
They may inherit the same middle ground, they may be a centrist party, they may have grown out of the same original partry, but there is a big difference in the way they handle themselves and what historically they have done to this country.

FG have degree of responsibility and the non toleration of unethical and actual fraudalent behaviour amongst it's members, particularly those at senior level.
FG haven't had two leaders and taoisigh exposed as frauds.
They haven't had the litany of dodgy members and when they did have high ranking member/minister who was into dodgy sh** he was turfed out.
To highlight it even more ff did a deal with the same guy to keep them in power.
ff promoted a number of dodgy members to high office and had to be forced to kick them out.
ff have twice ruined the country.

padser wrote: »

Labour is not an option for anyone in the centre or right of centre and SF and all the rest of the looney parties are chipping away at their left wing support.

Next election will see FF back in again most likely, and if not 100% guaranteed by the election after. The sad part is, it's actually impossible to look at the Irish political landscape and identify a party that's even remotely deserving of a vote so I guess FF is as good as any and probably better than the looney parties.

Why does your last line read like that uttered by many a fianna fail voter.
It boils down the old mantra "Shure aren't they all as bad as each other and shure you might as well vote for ff."

Very despressing.

At the moment the real opposition is a combination of sinn fein and independents as can be seen over the last few days in the Dáil.

periodictable

Enda just released this statement referring to severance payments made to ex Ff ministers

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/taoiseach-reveals-171-000-severance-payments-former-fianna-112449448.html#VqAmmUW
Wonder if Shatter will drop him in the s**t?

mcko

FF guy called to me during the week, I asked him to wait a sec while I called the kids 13 and 9. I made them promise me that they would never vote FF as this was the party that ruined their futures.
He left unimpressed, never forgive what they did, I have no part association but we must keep FF down.

creedp

periodictable wrote: »

Enda just released this statement referring to severance payments made to ex Ff ministers

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/taoiseach-reveals-171-000-severance-payments-former-fianna-112449448.html#VqAmmUW
Wonder if Shatter will drop him in the s**t?

I wonder when FG and Kenny in particular will grow up and move beyond continually referring to 'what FF did'. Its unbecoming and worse that spoilt children behaviour in a school yard. I suppose though thats what you get when you have highly paid and intelligent advisors. Issue now is what FG/Shatter are doing .. grow up and deal with it

Truman Burbank

Incumbent Labour councillor requesting a 2nd preference, this am, for fellow FF incumbent :eek:

Idbatterim

Even with all of FF struggles FG didn't actually manage a particularly strong showing (and given they are the same party FF support should have just transferred over). Labour is not an option for anyone in the centre or right of centre and SF and all the rest of the looney parties are chipping away at their left wing support.

Next election will see FF back in again most likely, and if not 100% guaranteed by the election after. The sad part is, it's actually impossible to look at the Irish political landscape and identify a party that's even remotely deserving of a vote so I guess FF is as good as any and probably better than the looney parties.

Hang on, I agree they are all useless to a large extent (to different degrees) but FG are far more capable than the rest, I believe they will run by far the steadiest ship, which is what we all want. Are you implying you intend on voting for FF? I can understand them receiving the vote of the ignorant, as scofflaw referred to above, its just your post came across as reflective, so I'd be shocked that someone can show reason though and logic would vote for those absolute crooks! To be honest I really hope FG avoid auction politics as much as possible, but if they have to court one group to stay in power, so be it the pensioners, PS or others on welfare, I would throw the pensioners a bone and just take one for the team. i.e. us the electorate!

creedp

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hang on, I agree they are all useless to a large extent (to different degrees) but FG are far more capable than the rest, I believe they will run by far the steadiest ship, which is what we all want. Are you implying you intend on voting for FF? I can understand them receiving the vote of the ignorant, as scofflaw referred to above, its just your post came across as reflective, so I'd be shocked that someone can show reason though and logic would vote for those absolute crooks! To be honest I really hope FG avoid auction politics as much as possible, but if they have to court one group to stay in power, so be it the pensioners, PS or others on welfare, I would throw the pensioners a bone and just take one for the team. i.e. us the electorate!

A couple of years in Govt and FG are already thinking like FF! Of course its OK when we do it!

periodictable

I wonder if the problem really isn't within the ""permanent" government.
I find it difficult to believe that several TDs have serious agendas and want to get things done, but that perhaps they are blocked and obstructed by the Sir Humphreys.
I did as this question of a very earnest TD who said that any minister is lucky to get one significant piece of legislation through whilst in power-excuses are made, road blocks put in place, slow paperwork, etc.
Maybe this was just an excuse.

Zubeneschamali

periodictable wrote: »

I did as this question of a very earnest TD who said that any minister is lucky to get one significant piece of legislation through whilst in power

This is only part of their job, and not the part that went Horribly Wrong in the Tiger years.

The other part of the Governments job is the annual tax-and-spend, with the budget set in, well , the Budget, and each Department managing its own spend. That's the part where the FF-led governments went completely mad.

BillyBoy13

jetsonx wrote: »

FG and Labour have now become associated with pain, hardship and cuts.

In the last 12 months something strange has happened in Ireland. The vitriol against FF seems to have abated. Some people are now even beginning to defend the actions of FF.

You say this like its a bad thing. Like it almost upsets you that people have moved on and are willing to give FF a second chance.

The party screwed up. So what? Most of those people have since left and we have a lot of new faces. Even in the local elections we are seeing people we never saw before.

So why all the hate?

Its as bad people saying they wont vote for SF because of things that happened over 40 years ago.

Zubeneschamali

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

Most of those people have since left and we have a lot of new faces.

The party is led by MM, a minister under Bertie and Biffo, who shares Cabinet responsibility for:

1) Using the State to enrich developers and bankers during good times at taxpayer expense
2) Bailing out the bankers and developers when it hit the fan, at taxpayers expense
3) Continuing to spend like a drunken FF leader after 2007 until...
4) Handing the country over to the IMF/EU.

Our grandchildren will be dealing with the debt these people piled on us, and you want to forgive and forget because, hey it was 3 years ago?

_Kaiser_

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hang on, I agree they are all useless to a large extent (to different degrees) but FG are far more capable than the rest, I believe they will run by far the steadiest ship, which is what we all want. Are you implying you intend on voting for FF? I can understand them receiving the vote of the ignorant, as scofflaw referred to above, its just your post came across as reflective, so I'd be shocked that someone can show reason though and logic would vote for those absolute crooks! To be honest I really hope FG avoid auction politics as much as possible, but if they have to court one group to stay in power, so be it the pensioners, PS or others on welfare, I would throw the pensioners a bone and just take one for the team. i.e. us the electorate!

You're trying to tell me that after the Shatter debacle, Reilly's strokes with primary centres and the mess he's made of the HSE, Hogan's ongoing antics - not to mention the great leader Kenny himself who has shown himself to be nothing more than an EU mouthpiece when - after being elected on a platform of change, reform, and a new approach to the crisis - the first thing he does is tells them that we all went mad in the good times and actively champions their policy of austerity (for some!).
A guy who refuses to debate and when he does comment - safely behind the doors of the Dail or with a scripted spiel from his handlers - he can't do it without continually blaming FF (3 years later!!) or throwing childish insults at SF to avoid the very valid points they might be making, and even then he comes out as wooden and sincere as Pinoccio.

THIS is the crowd you think are better equipped to steady the ship? FG are no different than FF - irrelevant Civil War stuff aside. They have proven themselves to be just as incompetent, out of touch and corrupt as their predecessors. The only reason we haven't seen more of it is because they've never managed more than a handful of terms in office - and never consecutively.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of FF either, but at least we didn't have a former primary school teacher on TV lecturing us like the kids he should have stuck with about how we WILL pay our bills while he and his mates live in an out of touch fantasy land at our expense!

FF are profiting here purely because FG (and their LAB hangers-on) have proven themselves to be just as bad if not WORSE than they were.

Ash.J.Williams

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

You say this like its a bad thing. Like it almost upsets you that people have moved on and are willing to give FF a second chance.

The party screwed up. So what? Most of those people have since left and we have a lot of new faces. Even in the local elections we are seeing people we never saw before.

So why all the hate?

Its as bad people saying they wont vote for SF because of things that happened over 40 years ago.

so what?
There was only about 10 years since the foundation of the state that we thought they were NOT corrupt....but they were

Zubeneschamali

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

he can't do it without continually blaming FF (3 years later!!)

Ministers rewarding their constituents a la Reilly is extremely small beer beside 100 billion euros of debt. You'd need a very short attention span to be going back to FF, if in fact you weren't a genetic FFer to start with.

The_Captain

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

You say this like its a bad thing. Like it almost upsets you that people have moved on and are willing to give FF a second chance.

The party screwed up. So what? Most of those people have since left and we have a lot of new faces. Even in the local elections we are seeing people we never saw before.

So why all the hate?

Its as bad people saying they wont vote for SF because of things that happened over 40 years ago.

That's what MM has been trying to convince us, but the last few weeks has shown that it isn't quite true...

raymon

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

The party screwed up. So what? Most of those people have since left and we have a lot of new faces. Even in the local elections we are seeing people we never saw before.

So why all the hate?

Its as bad people saying they wont vote for SF because of things that happened over 40 years ago.

New faces you say ?? Yes - Absolutely

Brian Cowen looked like a new face out on the hustings with Pat the cope - himself a brand new face.

Willie " come here till I tell you a lie under oath" O Dea looks young and fresh still.

Bertie's Team Thomas Byrne running for Europe . He is a new face isnt he ?

Hanafin - she is full of youth as she runs for election.

O Cuiv - has a becalmed spring in his step !

All led by Michael "How did that developer's donation end up in my wife's AIB bank account " Martin. I never saw him before

Well spotted Billyboy - all youth , new faces and renewal.

BillyBoy13

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The party is led by MM, a minister under Bertie and Biffo, who shares Cabinet responsibility for:

1) Using the State to enrich developers and bankers during good times at taxpayer expense
2) Bailing out the bankers and developers when it hit the fan, at taxpayers expense
3) Continuing to spend like a drunken FF leader after 2007 until...
4) Handing the country over to the IMF/EU.

Our grandchildren will be dealing with the debt these people piled on us, and you want to forgive and forget because, hey it was 3 years ago?

Yeh thats one guy. But it's irrelevant anyway. My point was that the party that will be standing forward in the next GE will be a far different party then we had during Berties reign.

Ash.J.Williams

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

Yeh thats one guy. But it's irrelevant anyway. My point was that the party that will be standing forward in the next GE will be a far different party then we had during Berties reign.

no they need a few more terms outside of government or total disbandment before they get elected again...as i said earlier they have been corrupt since the foundation of the state.

BillyBoy13

raymon wrote: »

New faces you say ?? Yes - Absolutely

Brian Cowen looked like a new face out on the hustings with Pat the cope - himself a brand new face.

Willie " come here till I tell you a lie under oath" O Dea looks young and fresh still.

Bertie's Team Thomas Byrne running for Europe . He is a new face isnt he ?

Hanafin - she is full of youth as she runs for election.

O Cuiv - has a becalmed spring in his step !

All led by Michael "How did that developer's donation end up in my wife's AIB bank account " Martin. I never saw him before

Well spotted Billyboy - all youth , new faces and renewal.

As mentioned above I was more getting at the fact the majority of core government of that time are gone.


But some points anyway.


Brian Cowen...? You must know something I dont know. What will his role be in the planned FF governement after the next GE?


Willie O Dea, emm correct me if Im wrong, but hes only a spokes person for the party.


Thomas Byrne. Im not familiar with him and after a quick google search what can I say.... he seems to have a full history of losing elections. Yeh he got onto the Seanad but that hardly counts for anything. I dont think you can put this guy in the room with Lenihan and the bankers.


Hannfin - When the bubble burst she was minister for education and science. Again, hardly a person that was calling the shots and doing dodgy dealings with bankers.


O Cuiv - Again, Minister for Gaeltact during the heat of it. Hardly the guy making decisions/deals with bankers.

BillyBoy13

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

no they need a few more terms outside of government or total disbandment before they get elected again...as i said earlier they have been corrupt since the foundation of the state.

I think you're probably right about them been made wait for another term or two. Then again, it seems to me that a lot of young people don't vote these days.... and from what I can see, it seems that its mainly young people that hate them, so there's potential for the older generation to bring them back I suppose. I guess only time will tell.

aoraki

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

The party screwed up. So what?

It's great to see you so blase about it. After all, we only saw the IMF come in, the entire banking system on the verge of collapse and needing to be rescued, unemployment go through the roof in a very short period of time, young people emmigrating in their droves, young families being absolutely crippled with debt just to put a roof over their heads, the banking guarantee, the entire nation landed with the debt of the derelict banks that will take DECADES to pay off, if ever. No other government in the history of the state have ever taken a country that was in fairly good nick in the late 90's and mismanaged to such a degree through corruption and downright stupidity so that the above misdemeanors came to pass. Such a f&ck up in unparallelled in the history of this state, and is probably unparallelled in any other country as well.

And the fine upstanding politicians responsible for all this were the most richly rewarded set of politicians we've ever had, and we are still rewarding them through pensions, golded handshakes and whatnot.

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

So why all the hate?

Its as bad people saying they wont vote for SF because of things that happened over 40 years ago.

It's lucky it's only vitriol you guys are getting. If this was a north african country it would be a lot more than "vitriol" you'd be getting. And to your point about SF, some people (myself included) won't vote for SF because a certain organisation they are associated with did some things that are considered unforgiveable.

I put FF in the same category as SF. What they did was unforgiveable. If somebody follows the FF banner, then as far as I'm concerned they are A-Ok with all the ****e that went on and they will be treated with the contempt they deserve.

BillyBoy13

aoraki wrote: »

It's great to see you so blase about it. After all, we only saw the IMF come in, the entire banking system on the verge of collapse and needing to be rescued, unemployment go through the roof in a very short period of time, young people emmigrating in their droves, young families........

Either you are trolling or.... nevermind. Look Im not saying lets make Bertie a national hero. Hell Im not even saying lets forgive the people that caused the mess. All Im saying is lets not blame the current lineup for something the previous members did.

In 100 years time will we still look at FF and say "nope not voting for them, back in the day, haughey was a gangster"

If Lenihan/Cowen etc were still holding prominent positions within the party then the hate wouldnt be misplaced.

aoraki wrote: »

It's lucky it's only vitriol you guys are getting. If this was a north african country it would be a lot more than "vitriol" you'd be getting.

But this isnt NA.

aoraki wrote: »

And to your point about SF, some people (myself included) won't vote for SF because a certain organisation they are associated with did some things that are considered unforgiveable.

OK. I really dont want to turn this into SF/IRA thread- but the troubles (or the main bulk of it anyway) are almost 40 years ago. When are you going to let go and move on? Should we give the EU the finger too just because 60 years ago Germany was killing jews?

Idbatterim

Kaiser, I agree 100% about kenny on another thread a few days ago I posted the issues you have raised. I have also said on another thread I am not too happy with FG, but they are streets ahead of the rest of them. FF are cancerous, what their plan, get back in power and party like its 2006 again? That reckless and it is reckless short termism, has to stop here. I cannot face going through another 5 or 6 years of this **** again ever, its actually sole destroying.

It's great to see you so blase about it. After all, we only saw the IMF come in, the entire banking system on the verge of collapse and needing to be rescued, unemployment go through the roof in a very short period of time, young people emigrating in their droves, young families being absolutely crippled with debt just to put a roof over their, the banking guarantee, the entire nation landed with the debt of the derelict banks that will take DECADES to pay off, if ever.

I will ad to this. There have been huge amounts of suicides, couples staying together because they cant afford to separate, families having to wave goodbye to their young one (not always bad thing) people stuck in negative equity who cant move. The damage that has been done cannot be overstated or underestimated. I had calmed down for a while, but that isnt something you can let go. The appalling mismanagement of the country, years after years, billions of give away budgets, yet look at out waster and waste water infrastructure, its archaic, Dublin still doesnt have a properly connected transport network, kids still learning in prefabs, nowhere near enough prison spaces, you could go on and on and on. This at at time where they had so much money they didnt know what to do with it, jobs for everyone yet welfare rose at rates a multiple the time of inflation. Its actually jaw dropping even after the several years it has had to sink in...

aoraki

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

Either you are trolling or.... nevermind. Look Im not saying lets make Bertie a national hero. Hell Im not even saying lets forgive the people that caused the mess. All Im saying is lets not blame the current lineup for something the previous members did.

In 100 years time will we still look at FF and say "nope not voting for them, back in the day, haughey was a gangster"

If Lenihan/Cowen etc were still holding prominent positions within the party then the hate wouldnt be misplaced.






But this isnt NA.





OK. I really dont want to turn this into SF/IRA thread- but the troubles (or the main bulk of it anyway) are almost 40 years ago. When are you going to let go and move on? Should we give the EU the finger too just because 60 years ago Germany was killing jews?

I'm not trolling, far from it. I wish I were. These fresh faced youngsters that are the "new" face of FF haven't just joined the party in the last 20 minutes. They have for the most part been involved in Ogra FF and grassroots for years . They attended Ard Fheis gatherings when the likes of Bertie, Lenihan, Cowen, Hanafin, O'Donoghue, etc where in their pomp and were pontificating from their many orifices. They applauded the speeches and lapped it up.

When did these newbies speak up against what FF were doing just a few years back? To my mind, if you have integrity and are firmly against the actions of that old guard, you would leave such a tainted organisation. If you decide to stay and support, then that tells me that while you may "tut tut" when confronted with the transgressions of FF, you're actually fine with it and couldn't give a monkeys. Where is the heave against Martin, O'Dea, O'Cuiv, Calleary, Hanafin etc, and calls from the "Decent Grassroots FF" for them to be expelled? Nope? Thought not.

Maybe one day in the far far distant future if they still exist as a political entity (which I sincerely hope they don't), and have proved themselves trustworthy, then maybe they will warrant a vote. But you have to remember that there is a whole generation of people that got completely shat on by that government and are paying boom time mortgages on houses whose value was inflated by the Bertie-Bubble, and will take a long time, if ever, for them to regain their initial value. They will be reminded of that every month for the lifetime of their mortgage, 35 years in a lot of cases. A whole generation of people that have seen family and friends emmigrate.

And again to your point about Sinn Fein. It's the same as with FF above, if they prove trustworthy at some distant point in the future they may warrant a vote. But with the likes of Adams and McGuinness at the helm there, that time is not now.

aoraki

Idbatterim wrote: »

Kaiser, I agree 100% about kenny on another thread a few days ago I posted the issues you have raised. I have also said on another thread I am not too happy with FG, but they are streets ahead of the rest of them. FF are cancerous, what their plan, get back in power and party like its 2006 again? That reckless and it is reckless short termism, has to stop here. I cannot face going through another 5 or 6 years of this **** again ever, its actually sole destroying.

I will ad to this. There have been huge amounts of suicides, couples staying together because they cant afford to separate, families having to wave goodbye to their young one (not always bad thing) people stuck in negative equity who cant move. The damage that has been done cannot be overstated or underestimated. I had calmed down for a while, but that isnt something you can let go. The appalling mismanagement of the country, years after years, billions of give away budgets, yet look at out waster and waste water infrastructure, its archaic, Dublin still doesnt have a properly connected transport network, kids still learning in prefabs, nowhere near enough prison spaces, you could go on and on and on. This at at time where they had so much money they didnt know what to do with it, jobs for everyone yet welfare rose at rates a multiple the time of inflation. Its actually jaw dropping even after the several years it has had to sink in...

This is spot on, the whole social impact of the clusterphuq that FF presided over. It's incalculable. And you're right, it's not something that can be let go for a long long time. I actually think that one of the reasons that there has been so little protest in this country is that people can't get their heads around the enormity of the phuq-up.

periodictable

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

no they need a few more terms outside of government or total disbandment before they get elected again...as i said earlier they have been corrupt since the foundation of the state.

Remember de Valera's fundraising in the States? That money went into the Irish Press for the benefit of his family.
Haughey was another thief, and Bertie's gang enriched themselves and their pals.

Zubeneschamali

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

If Lenihan/Cowen etc were still holding prominent positions within the party then the hate wouldnt be misplaced.

Martin/O'Dea/O'Cuiv/Smith/Kelleher/Kirk/Kitt/Calleary/Browne/Fleming/McGuiness are still holding prominent positions. Get back to us when they are gone.

Or don't bother, because we all know that you've got genetic supporters that don't care, and nobody else will ever vote for you, why pretend?

BillyBoy13

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Or don't bother, because we all know that you've got genetic supporters that don't care, and nobody else will ever vote for you, why pretend?

Pretend? What are you trying to imply?

michael999999

raymon wrote: »

New faces you say ?? Yes - Absolutely

Brian Cowen looked like a new face out on the hustings with Pat the cope - himself a brand new face.

Willie " come here till I tell you a lie under oath" O Dea looks young and fresh still.

Bertie's Team Thomas Byrne running for Europe . He is a new face isnt he ?

Hanafin - she is full of youth as she runs for election.

O Cuiv - has a becalmed spring in his step !

All led by Michael "How did that developer's donation end up in my wife's AIB bank account " Martin. I never saw him before

Well spotted Billyboy - all youth , new faces and renewal.

You can add tom the quiet man Mcellistrim to that list!

charlie14

FGs problem with the next general election will be that they just followed FFs blueprint for dealing with the economic crisis, and in doing so broke most of the promises they made. Their senior ministers, and Kenny`s kitchen cabinet, have been disasters. Reilly their deputy leader, is an embarrassmebt, Shatter is gone, but hanging around like a sulky scepter. Hogan, everything he touches turns to crap, and will get himself off to Brussels. Labour will be gutted in that the broke every promise, so FF keeping their heads down may not be that crazy a strategy, but i wouldn`t write off the shinners holding the balance of power the way the vote will be fractured next time around.
With the way people are being hammered financially, its going to be difficult to convince a lot of voters that their economic policies are any crazier than what they have been subjected too.