New Mobile Phone Laws effective May 1st

IsThisOneFree

Hi All

with this law coming into force tomorrow, I can find sod all information online about what exactly the new law states. My Mum said that she heard on the radio that the use of handsfree kits will now also be illegal. Does anybody know if this is true ? And if so, is it isolated to the handsfree kits that come with mobile phones, or are "plumbed in" hands free kits also be illegal now ?

I've also heard also that, strictly speaking, using your mobile phone while your car is OFF, but the keys are in the ignition, will also be illegal. Seems a tad extreme to say the least

Anyway, just wondering if anybody has seen anything in local press, online or anywhere else about the details of this new legislation ? Granted ignorance to the law is no excuse, but likewise surely the government have an obligation to ensure that the necessary information is made available to the public

Anybody have any further light to shed on this at all ?

IsThisOneFree

apologies, should probably have posted this in legal rather than motoring. please feel free to move it if necessary

corktina

As I understand it, the new law is to stop people using a phone even in a cradle to text or use social media..... you'll be able to use a totally handsfree phone but can't use the keypad whilst driving. It's just bunging up a loophole really, noting to worry about

Gumbo

corktina wrote: »

As I understand it, the new law is to stop people using a phone even in a cradle to text or use social media..... you'll be able to use a totally handsfree phone but can't use the keypad whilst driving. It's just bunging up a loophole really, noting to worry about

So using the oem Bluetooth systems or the likes of the parrots that sync phone books etc will be fine is what I imagine.

Greenmachine

IsThisOneFree wrote: »

Hi All

with this law coming into force tomorrow, I can find sod all information online about what exactly the new law states. My Mum said that she heard on the radio that the use of handsfree kits will now also be illegal. Does anybody know if this is true ? And if so, is it isolated to the handsfree kits that come with mobile phones, or are "plumbed in" hands free kits also be illegal now ?

I've also heard also that, strictly speaking, using your mobile phone while your car is OFF, but the keys are in the ignition, will also be illegal. Seems a tad extreme to say the least

Anyway, just wondering if anybody has seen anything in local press, online or anywhere else about the details of this new legislation ? Granted ignorance to the law is no excuse, but likewise surely the government have an obligation to ensure that the necessary information is made available to the public

Anybody have any further light to shed on this at all ?

Believe it will be an offense once you are in the drivers seat. Key does not even have to be in the ignition.

Pov06

So basically if I am using my phone as GPS and I park the car I cannot use the phone from the driver's seat? :eek:

Bpmull

Can you still use earphones with the built in mic so you would have your handsfree? Or does it have to be bluetooth ?

IsThisOneFree

If that's the case, sounds like you can't use your phone as a GPS full stop, right ?

Playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I wonder - using my phone as a camera while driving, presumably illegal. However, using a camera while driving, not illegal ?? Sorry, I don't meant to stray away from the point here .... just trying to demonstrate that this legislation seems to be very poorly thought out

Pov06

IsThisOneFree wrote: »

If that's the case, sounds like you can't use your phone as a GPS full stop, right ?

Surely that can't be right

IsThisOneFree

Pov06 wrote: »

Surely that can't be right

Well, if it's going to be illegal while sitting in the drivers seat and stationary, it'll still be illegal while the car is moving. The whole thing seems vague at best. And with nothing in the media about it (at least that I've seen) nobody has any way of knowing the "rumours" (such as the one I mentioned when I opened the thread) are true or not

Kimbot

Actually I believe to be in charge of a vehicle you have to have the keys in the ignition so if you are in the drivers seat using your phone and keys are not in the ignition then they cant do anything as you are not driving your car.

dgt

Bpmull wrote: »

Can you still use earphones with the built in mic so you would have your handsfree? Or does it have to be bluetooth ?

To me that's just as dangerous if not worse than holding the phone to the ear

Markcheese

Heard a garda on Matt Cooper last week , manually operating (ie.pressing buttons/screen) a handheld electronic device (phone,handheld sat nav ,tablet and I assume camera,) is now illegal, but not built in devices or Bluetooth headsets as long as you don't have to touch the phone (or whatever)..
Got told off by a Garda a few years ago for using the phone while parked..engine off. Though he was just a nut . But maybe he was just ahead of his time ?
Presume your not supposed to stop on motorway hardshoulder to use phone,? It would get you a ticket in the Uk ..

Pov06

Markcheese wrote: »

Heard a garda on Matt Cooper last week , manually operating (ie.pressing buttons/screen) a handheld electronic device (phone,handheld sat nav ,tablet and I assume camera,) is now illegal, but not built in devices or Bluetooth headsets as long as you don't have to touch the phone (or whatever)..
Got told off by a Garda a few years ago for using the phone while parked..engine off. Though he was just a nut . But maybe he was just ahead of his time ?
Presume your not supposed to stop on motorway hardshoulder to use phone,? It would get you a ticket in the Uk ..

Stopping in the hard shoulder altogether is illegal unless your car has broke down.

IsThisOneFree

Markcheese wrote: »

Heard a garda on Matt Cooper last week , manually operating (ie.pressing buttons/screen) a handheld electronic device (phone,handheld sat nav ,tablet and I assume camera,) is now illegal, but not built in devices or Bluetooth headsets as long as you don't have to touch the phone (or whatever)..

Well now that certainly would make a lot of sense, and would certainly be something I could agree with.

Back to the earlier thing of having the keys in the ignition - wonder how taxi drivers will fare. If I hop into a taxi and give them an address they've never heard of, are they gonna pull over and take out the keys (!!) while they type the address into the GPS ?!

As for using the motorway hard shoulder - yea, I'd have thought that would be equally illegal given that it's intended for emergencies. Although that's just me guessing really

rubberdiddies

it will surely signal the end for Hailo, as taxi drivers have to touch the screen to accept a job. I believe they get only a few seconds to accept a job.

Surely, standalone GPS devices are covered also under this new law as there is usually some level of interaction with them

IsThisOneFree

Good point, hadn't thought of Hailo, or built in GPS. So using built in GPS is fine, but using my "portable" Garmin/TomTom/whatever is not .............

ironclaw

Full details here:

http://dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/roads/english/information-note-road-traffic-act-2006-restriction-use-mobile-phones-regulations-2014./information-note-restriction-use-mobile-phones-regulations-2014-pdf.pdf

And here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2014/en.si.2014.0178.pdf

The regulations make it an offence to send or read a text message from a mobile phone while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle. These regulations apply to mobile phones which are not being held, i.e. to hands-free devices.

‘Text message’ in these regulations includes an SMS or MMS message, or an email.

‘MMS’ means a Multimedia Messaging Service which sends messages that include
multimedia content between mobile or fixed numbers assigned in accordance with national numbering plans.
‘SMS’ means a Short Message Service text message, composed principally of alphabetical or numerical characters, capable of being sent between mobile or fixed numbers assigned in accordance with national numbering plans.

I'm not a solicitor, but 'between mobile or fixed numbers assigned in accordance with national numbering plans' wouldn't cover the likes of iMessage where contacts can be defined by email addresses and not phone numbers.

By my reading, its not an offence to use a GPS or touch the screen for other purposes. In fact, the only offence seems to be messaging (SMS, Text and Email) But I doubt any Garda will listen to you because its frankly impossible to tell from a distance what someone is doing on their phone.

Contrary to some misleading media reports, they do not make it an offence to speak via a hands-free device. Nor do they make it an offence to touch a button on a hand-free device in order to answer a phone call.

Alanstrainor

What about changing tracks on my phone when its connected over bluetooth? That's pretty much my main concern.

ironclaw

Alanstrainor wrote: »

What about changing tracks on my phone when its connected over bluetooth? That's pretty much my main concern.

By my reading, this legislation only covers messaging services. But even then, its very loose and grey.

Its pretty much black and white here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2014/en.si.2014.0178.pdf

A person shall not while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a
public place—
(a) send a text message, or
(b) read a text message,
from a mobile phone.

Doesn't mention the million other things you can do on a modern smart phone including music and GPS.

Alanstrainor

That's interesting! Very black and white.

I have an app on my phone that auto responds to texts when I receive them while in the car. It's dead handy. You can have it reply with any message you like. Tasker is the app, and I'm running it on Android. It's an app you can do a million things with, but that's just one of mine.

AugustusMinimus

So it is illegal to be in the driver seat of a parked car, with the engine turned off and making a phone call ?

This is crazy stuff if true.

DavyD_83

What about sending a text by dictating it to phone and sending using voice commands?

Also, as said above, would it be ok to send an email as it would not be going to another phone?

corktina

"So it is illegal to be in the driver seat of a parked car, with the engine turned off and making a phone call ?"

.no of course it isn't....it says "driving"

ironclaw

corktina wrote: »

"So it is illegal to be in the driver seat of a parked car, with the engine turned off and making a phone call ?"

.no of course it isn't....it says "driving"

I'm fairly sure you can be done for drink driving in the driver seat of a parked car. Wasn't there a case in (Athlone?) a few years back? Pretty sure they keys don't have to be in the ignition either. I'd say in that case though its Garda discretion. Neatly parked versus pull up anywhere to have a chat. If it went to court I'd say it would be thrown out.

DavyD_83 wrote: »

What about sending a text by dictating it to phone and sending using voice commands?

Also, as said above, would it be ok to send an email as it would not be going to another phone?

Basically, any 'messaging' service you can't use by touching in the phone. Voice commands and dictation are fine. Again, I'm not read in law so thats purely my opinion from reading the SI.

Spook_ie

ironclaw wrote: »

I'm fairly sure you can be done for drink driving in the driver seat of a parked car. Wasn't there a case in (Athlone?) a few years back? Pretty sure they keys don't have to be in the ignition either. I'd say in that case though its Garda discretion. Neatly parked versus pull up anywhere to have a chat. If it went to court I'd say it would be thrown out.



Basically, any 'messaging' service you can't use by touching in the phone. Voice commands and dictation are fine. Again, I'm not read in law so thats purely my opinion from reading the SI.

Would imagine that the charge would have been similar to the UK's Drunk in Charge rather than drink driving. Though a quick search of legislation doesn't show much other than
EDIT
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0050.html

(2) A person who, when in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle which is in a public place with intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle, but not driving or attempting to drive the vehicle, is unfit to drive the vehicle shall be guilty of an offence.

From 1961 not sure if there any updates to it

IsThisOneFree

ironclaw wrote: »

I'm fairly sure you can be done for drink driving in the driver seat of a parked car

To be fair, drunk driving is slightly different - sitting into the drivers seat while being over the alcohol limit would likely show an intention to drive while under the influence. Being on a phone while sitting in the drivers seat doesn't quiet show the same intent, as the call can be ended before the driver starts the car. So in the case of being over the limit, the driver cannot "put themselves into a legal state" as it were (without getting out of the car). However, a person on the phone can, just by putting down the phone.

Just my 2 cent :-)

_Kaiser_

I wouldn't worry too much guys..

As usual there'll be a bit of a fuss over the forthcoming bank holiday weekend but after that it'll drop pretty much back to normal - that's how it works in this country.

The only change will be a potential surge in rear-endings as people try to hide the phone under the dash/window line as they text away

Another nonsense, open to interpretation/depends who you get law that won't be enforced anyway!

_Kaiser_

ironclaw wrote: »

By my reading, this legislation only covers messaging services. But even then, its very loose and grey.

Its pretty much black and white here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2014/en.si.2014.0178.pdf



Doesn't mention the million other things you can do on a modern smart phone including music and GPS.

To play along with that.. as it says "while driving". Does that include stopped at a set of lights with the handbrake on? You're not "driving" then. If you have a car with stop/start the engine might not even be running!

No doubt the default answer at the side of the road will be "yes" but again, all vague enough so the usual mood of the Garda nonsense can continue.

Spook_ie

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

To play along with that.. as it says "while driving". Does that include stopped at a set of lights with the handbrake on? You're not "driving" then. If you have a car with stop/start the engine might not even be running!

No doubt the default answer at the side of the road will be "yes" but again, all vague enough so the usual mood of the Garda nonsense can continue.

You'd still be driving because you would ( presumably, though depends on the driver ) still be in the traffic lane. I would have thought it fairly easy to tell between parked and just not paying attention

Spook_ie

IsThisOneFree wrote: »

Good point, hadn't thought of Hailo, or built in GPS. So using built in GPS is fine, but using my "portable" Garmin/TomTom/whatever is not .............

Garmin/TomTom/whatever isn't a device linked to a nationally recognised numbering system or to put it simply it's NOT a phone.

That's not to say that you can't still be done for driving without due care or whatever if you are typing an address into it while driving!

Del2005

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I wouldn't worry too much guys..

As usual there'll be a bit of a fuss over the forthcoming bank holiday weekend but after that it'll drop pretty much back to normal - that's how it works in this country.

Another nonsense, open to interpretation/depends who you get law that won't be enforced anyway!

Exactly. We already have laws for texting or updating Facebook etc, driving without due care is one, which aren't used so why will they bother enforcing this one. They don't even bother with the easy not holding a phone law with the amount of people I see using phones and I don't do much mileage.

AlekSmart

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I wouldn't worry too much guys..

As usual there'll be a bit of a fuss over the forthcoming bank holiday weekend but after that it'll drop pretty much back to normal - that's how it works in this country.

The only change will be a potential surge in rear-endings as people try to hide the phone under the dash/window line as they text away

Another nonsense, open to interpretation/depends who you get law that won't be enforced anyway!

I believe ,in keeping with MOST Irish Legislation (apart from Financial Regulation :rolleyes:),that we have spawned a monster here....

Journeyed last night from Dublin to Co Waterford....Incredible number of sudden Stops....diving across two lanes to the hard shoulder as well as anchoring up immediately a phone rang......

This is going to KILL far more innocent motorists pedestrians due to the level of panic/fear of detection amongst Irish Drivers...:eek:

Anybody driving long distances really will have to up their observations levels and drive defensively...for sure !

micks_address

Couple of questions.

1) What if my sat nav is built into the car and i need to use a touchscreen to set?
2) Isnt fiddling with a radio on the car/scrolling through lists of music etc just as dangerous? e.g. my ipod connects to my radio controls, so i can control via the stereo display
3) Drinking coffee/tea from a cup while driving - is that an offence?
4) So if i answer a call by press the 'accept' call on my phone while its in its cradle, and talk via the hands free i would be breaking the law?
5) Is it a 1000 euro on the spot fine or is that maximum fine allowed under tha law?

I have no issue with the crackdown on phones being used while driving. I drive the m50 every day and its amazing how many people i see doing 120 on the motorway while holding their phone, making calls, or actually reading/texting.. and the best yet was a guy on the phone drinking coffee at the same time..

I have an awful habbit when stopped at lights of just checking my phone for new emails/texts.. i guess thats not allowed now? I would just press the power button look for any new notifications on the phone..

No Pants

I don't think it matters what we all think it says. Unless the burden of proof has changed significantly, it's all going to come down to what a Garda believes he saw you doing.

Pov06

micks_address wrote: »

Couple of questions.

1) What if my sat nav is built into the car and i need to use a touchscreen to set?
2) Isnt fiddling with a radio on the car/scrolling through lists of music etc just as dangerous? e.g. my ipod connects to my radio controls, so i can control via the stereo display
3) Drinking coffee/tea from a cup while driving - is that an offence?
4) So if i answer a call by press the 'accept' call on my phone while its in its cradle, and talk via the hands free i would be breaking the law?
5) Is it a 1000 euro on the spot fine or is that maximum fine allowed under tha law?

I have no issue with the crackdown on phones being used while driving. I drive the m50 every day and its amazing how many people i see doing 120 on the motorway while holding their phone, making calls, or actually reading/texting.. and the best yet was a guy on the phone drinking coffee at the same time..

I have an awful habbit when stopped at lights of just checking my phone for new emails/texts.. i guess thats not allowed now? I would just press the power button look for any new notifications on the phone..

I've seen worse to be honest, e.g. a lad on the phone and smoking at the same time driving a car with an L plate, unaccompanied of course

Gazzmonkey

corktina wrote: »

As I understand it, the new law is to stop people using a phone even in a cradle to text or use social media..... you'll be able to use a totally handsfree phone but can't use the keypad whilst driving. It's just bunging up a loophole really, noting to worry about

But it's still OK to poke at our radio or A/C buttons?

Bpmull

dgt wrote: »

To me that's just as dangerous if not worse than holding the phone to the ear

Obviously I mean only put one ear phone in one ear not both. I have a bluetooth kit anyway just have to fix it at the weekend.

Markcheese

Pov06 wrote: »

I've seen worse to be honest, e.g. a lad on the phone and smoking at the same time driving a car with an L plate, unaccompanied of course

I think that guys sister/girlfriend lives near me,
As well as a fag and a phone in hand the seats so far back that she can only just see over the steering wheel ...

Presume there's not really much chance of getting done for touching your touch screen phone once , but it'll be pretty obvious if your fumbling for your phone, trying to open your e-mail and LOL ing on Facebook ... (so while one touch on hailo may be illegal it's unlikely to get you points)

corktina

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

But it's still OK to poke at our radio or A/C buttons?

I don't see the problem there. I can operate all my cars controls without looking or hardly even thinking about it. Texting someone would be a different matter

ironclaw

1) What if my sat nav is built into the car and i need to use a touchscreen to set?

Only applies to mobile phones and further more, only applies to messaging.

2) Isnt fiddling with a radio on the car/scrolling through lists of music etc just as dangerous? e.g. my ipod connects to my radio controls, so i can control via the stereo display

No issue, not covered by the new laws.

3) Drinking coffee/tea from a cup while driving - is that an offence?

Probably if you were making a mess of your driving then its 'without due care and attention' but would depend on the Garda. Its not specifically an offence.

4) So if i answer a call by press the 'accept' call on my phone while its in its cradle, and talk via the hands free i would be breaking the law?

You can touch the phone to accept a call but you must talk handsfree

Its all here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2014/en.si.2014.0178.pdf

Once again, I cannot see this being enforced as its impossible to tell what someone is doing without seeing their screen i.e. The Garda literally has to be on your shoulder.

Del2005

corktina wrote: »

I don't see the problem there. I can operate all my cars controls without looking or hardly even thinking about it. Texting someone would be a different matter

That's you. A lot of people can't find the horn without looking for it.

What isn't clear from this is if you can put a SIM into your car can you now not drive it? As your car is now a phone and you are interacting with it.

simplybam

What's the point of this thread? Use common sense. Don't use your phone to call or text/email while driving. Feel free to use GPS as long as you don't program it while driving. Same goes for music - don't search for songs or do anything that'll distract you while driving (same as with you in-car stereo).

Seriously, why does anyone even need to ask questions like 'ok, I'm not allowed to text but can I send email?' That's absolutely ludicrous! The driving standards in this country are bad enough as they are. Do you really think you're that important that an email, text or phone call can't wait a few minutes until you can safely pull over somewhere legal and do it without endangering innocent people by your reckless behaviour?

IsThisOneFree

simplybam wrote: »

Seriously, why does anyone even need to ask questions like 'ok, I'm not allowed to text but can I send email?'

I may have missed it, but I don't believe anybody asked such a question ??

simplybam wrote: »

What's the point of this thread?

Read the very first post, the point of the thread was clarification around the following:

- My Mum said that she heard on the radio that the use of handsfree kits will now also be illegal. Does anybody know if this is true ? And if so, is it isolated to the handsfree kits that come with mobile phones, or are "plumbed in" hands free kits also be illegal now ?

- I've also heard also that, strictly speaking, using your mobile phone while your car is OFF, but the keys are in the ignition, will also be illegal

With regards to the hands free issue - I heard Conor Faughan from AA on the radio this morning. He again mentioned about the illegality of using hands free kits (and mentioned about phones being in a cradle), but it wasn't clear if the illegality spread to speaking on hands free kits or not, and if so, what was the definition of hands free.

Admittedly you would hope that common sense would prevail, but the whole things still seems vague at best

ironclaw

IsThisOneFree wrote: »

- My Mum said that she heard on the radio that the use of handsfree kits will now also be illegal. Does anybody know if this is true ? And if so, is it isolated to the handsfree kits that come with mobile phones, or are "plumbed in" hands free kits also be illegal now ?

- I've also heard also that, strictly speaking, using your mobile phone while your car is OFF, but the keys are in the ignition, will also be illegal

The only SI's that I can see this year in relation to mobile phones is this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2014/en.si.2014.0178.pdf

Which is explained here:

http://dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/roads/english/information-note-road-traffic-act-2006-restriction-use-mobile-phones-regulations-2014./information-note-restriction-use-mobile-phones-regulations-2014-pdf.pdf

So basically, anything to do with a text, MMS or email is illegal. However, I believe there are serious loopholes to this. For instance, and I'm not read in law, an fb message would not fall under the defintion of SMS, MMS or email. Nor would an iMessage being sent between contacts defined by email not phone number.

I really wish the media would add this to all reports:

Contrary to some misleading media reports, they do not make it an offence to speak via a hands-free device. Nor do they make it an offence to touch a button on a hand-free device in order to answer a phone call.

IsThisOneFree

Yup, got that. Was just re-posting the original questions in answer to simplybam's post

simplybam

DavyD_83 wrote: »

What about sending a text by dictating it to phone and sending using voice commands?

Also, as said above, would it be ok to send an email as it would not be going to another phone?

^ Yes, this question was asked, although indirectly, really.

And to be honest, I wish the gards would actually start enforcing these laws more. There's not a single day going by when I don't see someone talking on the phone - or even worse, texting away like there's no tomorrow. And as far as I am concerned, those drivers should get a min. 12 month ban - no questions asked!

_Kaiser_

ironclaw wrote: »

I really wish the media would add this to all reports:

I really wish our Keystone Cops brigade would do their jobs and enforce ALL the Rules of the Road rather than revenue exercises like motorway speed traps or being more concerned about the state of the tax disc on a car rather than its condition/behaviour of the driver (broken lights or no lights, bald tyres, no signalling, reckless manoeuvres etc)

Still, what can we expect from a force that treats its own like lepers for calling out malpractice, routinely violates the same Rules without cause (and I don't accept the "cause we can" excuse - in fact as far as I remember a statement was issued previously that they SHOULD adhere to the same rules unless responding to a call/emergency), and which has proven time and again to be incompetent, unprofessional and unaccountable.

This is all covered under existing legislation. No need for yet more vague confusing nonsense added to the statute books.

ironclaw

simplybam wrote: »

And to be honest, I wish the gards would actually start enforcing these laws more. There's not a single day going by when I don't see someone talking on the phone - or even worse, texting away like there's no tomorrow. And as far as I am concerned, those drivers should get a min. 12 month ban - no questions asked!

The problem with these laws, as I see it, is that its completely unenforceable. How can a Garda tell what you are doing on your phone? Can you tell what someone on a bus say 2 seats in front of you is doing? I can't. So how can a Garda see what I'm doing on my phone in a moving car?

Unless there is another SI amendment I haven't seen, you are still perfectly entitled to touch your phone (Provided its cradled and you are not supporting it with your body) as long as its not for text / MMS or email messaging purposes.

corktina

Would it not just be easier to park up rather than using voice commands and emails or fb messages etc. A damn sight safer too and within the spirit of the Law

ironclaw

corktina wrote: »

Would it not just be easier to park up rather than using voice commands and emails or fb messages etc. A damn sight safer too and within the spirit of the Law

Totally agree. I don't use my phone at all while driving save for perhaps rerouting or tapping a quick route change. Honestly, they should have banned phone usage outright or not bothered at all in my eyes.