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Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

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    #752
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    alastair wrote: »
    Who, out on their own, claimed 'the possibility go political policing'? Why it was SF!
    Who was arrested, not for no reason, but because they're implicated in a murder? Why a SF politician!
    Who made an official complaint? Why that self same politician implicated in a murder! How much merit does a complaint have to have, before it can be made? Why none at all! It can be entirely mischievous, and still 'official'.
    Who believes that questioning a murder suspect is potentially going to "affect the peace process"? Why the same party that threatened to 'reflect' on it's support for policing, and told it's supporters to remain calm... until the police charged that suspect - their leader.

    Colour me unimpressed.

    To be "implicated" in a crime is pretty much an assumption of guilt:
    implicate
    verb
    past tense: implicated; past participle: implicated
    ˈɪmplɪkeɪt/

    1. show (someone) to be involved in a crime.
    "he implicated his government in the murders of three judges"

    To claim Adams is "implicated" in McConville's murder is a factually incorrect claim. At no point has Gerry Adams been shown to be involved in McConville's murder, full stop. One may have whatever suspicions one likes, but you cannot state as fact something that is not fact.

    If you have a justification, you may respond.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #753
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    To be "implicated" in a crime is pretty much an assumption of guilt:



    To claim Adams is "implicated" in McConville's murder is a factually incorrect claim. At no point has Gerry Adams been shown to be involved in McConville's murder, full stop. One may have whatever suspicions one likes, but you cannot state as fact something that is not fact.

    If you have a justification you may respond.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw

    It's certainly not factually incorrect - see below:
    Adams was implicated in the killing by two IRA veterans who gave taped interviews to researchers for a Boston College history archive
    http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.2627546
    Republicans interviewed as part of the oral history project had implicated Gerry Adams in the murder of Ms McConville, who was dragged “squealing” from her home in front of her children in December 1972 and was never seen alive again.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shadow-of-jean-mcconville-murder-still-hangs-over-gerry-adams-and-sinn-fein-30244125.html
    Participants in the BC project have implicated Adams in the killing: Brendan Hughes, a legendary IRA volunteer who fell out with Adams over the latter’s peace strategy that included compromising on long-standing republican ideals; and Dolours Price, one of the highest-profile female members of the Provisional IRA, who said that Adams ordered her to drive McConville to her IRA executioners.
    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/04/30/sinn-fein-leader-gerry-adams-arrested-connection-with-ira-murder/xUrADTJZCIhQMZSExLiAlM/story.html


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    #754
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    alastair wrote: »
    SF 'concern' over 'political policing' is about as convincing as any other straw man argument. As in not convincing at all. The fact that no-one else buys their spin says it all.
    It's about time the phrase "straw man" was retired from the internet. 99% of the time (including here) the poster simply hasn't the first clue what it means.


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    #755
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    alastair wrote: »
    It's certainly not factually incorrect - see below:

    http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.2627546


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shadow-of-jean-mcconville-murder-still-hangs-over-gerry-adams-and-sinn-fein-30244125.html


    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/04/30/sinn-fein-leader-gerry-adams-arrested-connection-with-ira-murder/xUrADTJZCIhQMZSExLiAlM/story.html

    Boston University has distanced itself from the tapes and said they never sanctioned the project. People being recorded on tape outside of a courtroom or under arrest doesn't really stand up and all it comes down to is hear say.

    SENIOR historians at Boston College have sought to distance themselves from the controversial 'Boston Tapes' project, the Irish Independent has learned


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    #756
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    crusher000 wrote: »
    Boston University has distanced itself from the tapes and said they never sanctioned the project.

    Perhaps you have a link where they did that? Because I heard a spokesman for Boston University on the radio the other day, and he was not distancing the university from the project.

    He was distancing the university from the opinions of the people the University paid to run the project, and explaining that the unexpected actions of the PSNI meant that the project was damaged, and that peoples interview material would be returned to them if they asked.


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    #757
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It's about time the phrase "straw man" was retired from the internet. 99% of the time (including here) the poster simply hasn't the first clue what it means.

    It's 100% applicable here, or do you believe otherwise?


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    #758
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    crusher000 wrote: »
    Boston University has distanced itself from the tapes and said they never sanctioned the project. People being recorded on tape outside of a courtroom or under arrest doesn't really stand up and all it comes down to is hear say.

    You can choose to believe the evidence or not, but the fact that they implicated him is kind of hard to wish away.


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    #759
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Perhaps you have a link where they did that? Because I heard a spokesman for Boston University on the radio the other day, and he was not distancing the university from the project.

    He was distancing the university from the opinions of the people the University paid to run the project, and explaining that the unexpected actions of the PSNI meant that the project was damaged, and that peoples interview material would be returned to them if they asked.

    Did you use Google?
    Senior historians at Boston College have distanced themselves from the so-called Boston tapes project that led to the arrest of Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams.

    Five professors have signed an open letter headlined: "'Belfast project' is not, and never was, a Boston College history department project."

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/may/08/gerryadams-boston


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    #760
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Banjo String wrote: »
    http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/may/08/gerryadams-boston

    The professors at the linked article state that it was not a History Department project, but:

    Moloney and the interviewers he hired - Anthony McIntyre and Wilson McArthur - were subcontracted by the director of the Burns Library and the director of the centre for Irish programmes.

    The Burns Library is the library of Boston University. Boston University fought a 2 year legal action against the Federal subpoenas demanding release of the material to the PSNI. Odd if it wasn't their project.


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    #761
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    First Im condescending and now Im pious? hahaha. You seem to be back saying the same old same old, and in reply to any response I make you return with various insults. Well done. Shows the strength of your argument.
    marienbad wrote: »
    More pious nonsense, they don't do mealy mouthed populism ! Instead they make veiled threats undermining the institutes of state !

    And yes there are real life issues going on out there , like people loosing their homes, Jobs ,benefits but all take second place to the SF Narcissism.


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    #762
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    alastair wrote: »
    You can choose to believe the evidence or not, but the fact that they implicated him is kind of hard to wish away.


    You can implicate anybody about anyhting but it doesn't make it the truth or even have foundation.


    Bailey is implicated in the Di Plantier murder in Cork but he has never been found guilty.

    I can implicate someone to a crime but that doesn't make them guilty or doesn't even mean they had anything to do with a crime.


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    #763
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    maccored wrote: »
    First Im condescending and now Im pious? hahaha. You seem to be back saying the same old same old, and in reply to any response I make you return with various insults. Well done. Shows the strength of your argument.

    Not at all , but you are not presenting arguments , just either or choices that have little validity or telling us we are not in the 'real world' ,Life is a bit more nuanced .


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    #764
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    crusher000 wrote: »
    You can implicate anybody about anyhting but it doesn't make it the truth or even have foundation.


    Bailey is implicated in the Di Plantier murder in Cork but he has never been found guilty.

    I can implicate someone to a crime but that doesn't make them guilty or doesn't even mean they had anything to do with a crime.

    Sure - but it's the reason Adams was brought in for interview. Pretending he wasn't implicated is just incorrect. The PSNI clearly believe there was enough foundation to question him, and extend his arrest.


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    #765
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The professors at the linked article state that it was not a History Department project, but:

    Moloney and the interviewers he hired - Anthony McIntyre and Wilson McArthur - were subcontracted by the director of the Burns Library and the director of the centre for Irish programmes.

    The Burns Library is the library of Boston University. Boston University fought a 2 year legal action against the Federal subpoenas demanding release of the material to the PSNI. Odd if it wasn't their project.

    Lots of people use university facilites for lots of reasons. Medical research etc. That doesn't mean that it is automatically the property or sanctioned by a university because even though they permit a project they may not be concerned or need to be aware of the context of the project. If that was the case they would be full time reviewing every project that goes on under their roof.


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    #766
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    alastair wrote: »
    Sure - but it's the reason Adams was brought in for interview. Pretending he wasn't implicated is just incorrect. The PSNI clearly believe there was enough foundation to question him, and extend his arrest.

    Ah yes , that's why he has now made an official complaint about his detention to the PSNI because they had now foundation or evidence of him being involved in this crime and most of they're knowledge was based on hear say.

    Plus I'm not pretending he wasn't implicated my point as I made earlier is you can implicate anyone you wish for any crime doesn't make it correct though.


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    #767
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    alastair wrote: »
    Sure - but it's the reason Adams was brought in for interview. Pretending he wasn't implicated is just incorrect. The PSNI clearly believe there was enough foundation to question him, and extend his arrest.
    Unless the questioning was politically motivated.
    But since you have already refused to believe that any member of the PSNI (formerly the utterly trustworthy RUC) could be in any way partial I guess that's just impossible to be true...


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    #768
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Unless the questioning was politically motivated.
    A claim which only SF have made, and everyone else dismissed.


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    #769
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    crusher000 wrote: »
    Lots of people use university facilites for lots of reasons. Medical research etc. That doesn't mean that it is automatically the property or sanctioned by a university because even though they permit a project they may not be concerned or need to be aware of the context of the project.

    The fact that the University fought subpoenas for 2 years kind of hints that it was their project.

    They are now offering to ship the material back to the interviewees, but they are blaming the PSNI and the people who conducted the research, they are not denying that they commissioned the research and paid for it or that it was their project.


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    #770
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    crusher000 wrote: »
    Ah yes , that's why he has now made an official complaint about his detention to the PSNI because they had now foundation or evidence of him being involved in this crime and most of they're knowledge was based on hear say.

    Plus I'm not pretending he wasn't implicated my point as I made earlier is you can implicate anyone you wish for any crime doesn't make it correct though.

    Making a complaint costs him nothing, and doesn't require any sort of merit to make. It means nothing.


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    #771
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    alastair wrote: »
    A claim which only SF have made, and everyone else dismissed.
    Who's "everyone"? You and the PSNI?


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    #772
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    alastair wrote: »
    Making a complaint costs him nothing, and doesn't require any sort of merit to make. It means nothing.
    Neither does inviting him in for questioning.


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    #773
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    So he was a member of the IRA, he has been accused of being involved in murders, crimminal activity and he has been convicted of how many henous crimes ?

    He has been elected as a member of the Nothern Assembly.
    He has been elected as an MP.
    He has been elected as a TD.

    My god not bad for a crimminal on the run.

    But I don't need to defend Gerry Adams any more as he has proven he is quite capable of doing this himself.


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    #774
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Who's "everyone"? You and the PSNI?

    The PSNI haven't dismissed it or can, until complaint has been processed.

    Alastair, as usual, is assuming on behalf of 'everyone else'.


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    #775
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Who's "everyone"? You and the PSNI?

    Everyone outside SF (and their flagwavers).


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    #776
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Neither does inviting him in for questioning.
    Arrest requires some degree of evidence. Adams isn't claiming wrongful arrest.


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    #777
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    crusher000 wrote: »
    So he was a member of the IRA, he has been accused of being involved in murders, crimminal activity and he has been convicted of how many henous crimes ?

    He has been elected as a member of the Nothern Assembly.
    He has been elected as an MP.
    He has been elected as a TD.

    My god not bad for a crimminal on the run.

    But I don't need to defend Gerry Adams any more as he has proven he is quite capable of doing this himself.

    When was he on the run? None of the above removes from the reality of his membership of the IRA.


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    #778
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Not when he voluntarily hands himself in, since then they can arrest him to keep him there for questioning. If they had put forward a warrant for his arrest, then yes, they would have needed some evidence. thats why they waited for him to offer to present himself. and then, rather than having the decency to interview him before the election campaign started, or afterwards, they decided to call him in slap bang in the middle of it.
    alastair wrote: »
    Arrest requires some degree of evidence. Adams isn't claiming wrongful arrest.


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    #779
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    alastair wrote: »
    the reality of his membership of the IRA.

    Which is? What is the reality? Have you any proof at all? Dont refer to threads on the internet and pictures ... give us some real proof and then contact the PSNI with it.


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    #780
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    alastair wrote: »
    Everyone outside SF (and their flagwavers).

    I've even heard it from SF supporters, how everyone including SF members know it, but it has to be denied for political reasons.

    If it is ever proven in court, the SF script will shift immediately to "everyone always knew that!".


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    #781
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Its quite obvious the questioning was at the very very least, suspiciously timed. I would say its political policing as the timing wasnt accidental. Purely 'imo' mind you.
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I've even heard it from SF supporters, how everyone including SF members know it, but it has to be denied for political reasons.

    If it is ever proven in court, the SF script will shift immediately to "everyone always knew that!".


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