Some of the basics for a noob!

nokes

Hi Guys,


new poster here, but looking at some of the existing threads, it seems that there is a very knowledgeable active group in this forum, so, hopefully my questions won't be too low-brow!

If you think I'm mad - please just tell me

Currently, in my house there is already an alarm fitted (Honeywell components mostly) which has 3 motions sensors (PIRs I believe they're called), 10 wireless connectors (on 2 doors and 8 windows), what looks like a old wifi router that has a loud alarm bell attached (but takes a sim card for alerts) and finally a crappy external siren which I believe isn't even wired up - but has been so weather beaten that it is hanging on it's hinges!
Also, I noticed that the house is actually WIRED for an alarm, i.e. each window/door has a cable running to it and there is a white blank box (just a casing) in the main hall where they all come back to - and a cable near the front door at waist height (I assume for a keypad).

Eh, while it should be noted that I inherited this setup and know little about it, I love taking on projects and "trying my hand" at different things. I'm sure whoever "did" the last job should probably be shot, but never-the-less I fancy I could do a better job myself.

I know I could go to reputable alarm specialists who will gladly take ~€1000 and the job would be done and everything would be hunky-dory - but I'd enjoy the challenge of trying this myself

I've seen various other posts which reference the site:
(Ooops - as new user can't post URLs yet!)
rspl web ie



Now for the noob questions as promised!

Do inertia sensors also act as contact sensors, or is that what the "Shock Sensor with Magnetic Contact White or Brown" is for?


I see HKC, Texecom and Siemens all have similar products. Can you mix and match between them all? I.e. a Texecom keypad with a Siemens panel and HKC external siren? Or are you more or less locked into going with one company and that's that?


If I were to buy everything I would need to fit the alarm myself, i.e.:
1) Keypad and panel (HKC SW8/12)
2) External siren (HKC SABB)
3) 3 PIRs (HKC PIR)
4) 10 Inertia sensors/contacts/Shock sensor with mag. contact (UTC GS611 - will this work with ALL companies HKC/Texecom/Siemens?)
5) Text messaging: HKC GSM
I'm guessing those are the main components required for a typical HKC setup?


Any ideas how much a setup like that could cost me?






As a bonus noob question, on a scale of 1-10, how crazy would it be to go down the route of one of these:
(Ooops - as new user can't post URLs yet!)
Search on ebay for "HOMSECUR LCD Wireless GSM Autodial Home Office Burglar Intruder Alarm System"

Given that for less than €200, I'd get all of that, could I then retro-fit the shock sensors and maybe external siren?


Thank you for your time in helping a noob understand!

KoolKid

nokes wrote: »

Now for the noob questions as promised!

Do inertia sensors also act as contact sensors, or is that what the "Shock Sensor with Magnetic Contact White or Brown" is for?

You can get combined inertia contacts with a shock sensor and a built in contact.

nokes wrote: »

I see HKC, Texecom and Siemens all have similar products. Can you mix and match between them all? I.e. a Texecom keypad with a Siemens panel and HKC external siren? Or are you more or less locked into going with one company and that's that?

You must use a manufacturers panel keypad and wireless devices.
Detection devices are global and you can mix them. If using current devices you may have to alter resistor settings to match.

nokes wrote: »

If I were to buy everything I would need to fit the alarm myself, i.e.:
1) Keypad and panel (HKC SW8/12)
2) External siren (HKC SABB)
3) 3 PIRs (HKC PIR)
4) 10 Inertia sensors/contacts/Shock sensor with mag. contact (UTC GS611 - will this work with ALL companies HKC/Texecom/Siemens?)
5) Text messaging: HKC GSM
I'm guessing those are the main components required for a typical HKC setup?

Even between suppliers prices vary a lot. Also I would not be looking at the SW 8/12 its a very old and dated system now. You could get the Siemens SPC panels or Risco LightSYS for around the same money but with plenty more features and the ability to add free apps.

nokes

KoolKid wrote: »

You can get combined inertia contacts with a shock sensor and a built in contact.

Combined inertia contacts seem the way to go so.
Can you recommend a neat looking one?

KoolKid wrote: »

You must use a manufacturers panel keypad and wireless devices.
Detection devices are global and you can mix them. If using current devices you may have to alter resistor settings to match.

I think I'll throw away the existing stuff. I don't feel like changing batteries on the wireless devices and since the house is already wired, I'll use wired devices.

KoolKid wrote: »

Even between suppliers prices vary a lot. Also I would not be looking at the SW 8/12 its a very old and dated system now. You could get the Siemens SPC panels or Risco LightSYS for around the same money but with plenty more features and the ability to add free apps.

Ah great, thank you for the recommendation. if I go with either the Siemens or the Risco, how do I go about finding a compatible external siren? Or is that the same as the detection devices where it doesn't matter what brand, but I may have to play around with resistor settings?

KoolKid

nokes wrote: »

Combined inertia contacts seem the way to go so.
Can you recommend a neat looking one?

I like the Aritech GS711

nokes wrote: »

Ah great, thank you for the recommendation. if I go with either the Siemens or the Risco, how do I go about finding a compatible external siren? Or is that the same as the detection devices where it doesn't matter what brand, but I may have to play around with resistor settings?

All global bells are compatible with those systems. I like the Pyronix Delta bell

nokes

Both are perfect - but wow - is it my lack of searching skills, or is it next top impossible to find sellers of this kind of equipment online?

I'm based in the midlands and have no idea of any shop that would have such supplies.

I've seen other posts on the forum mention rew and rspl for example (both places located in Dublin), would I have to pop into one of those places, or is there really no-where else I could purchase online?

There does seem to be lots of sites with descriptions and information, but they seem to want to sell as packages rather than individual components.

KoolKid

Don't know any offhand. But you could tart with a search of electrical supliers here.
http://www.constructionireland.ie/electrical-wholesalers/ireland/96_14.htm

grip n rip

nokes wrote: »

Hi Guys,


new poster here, but looking at some of the existing threads, it seems that there is a very knowledgeable active group in this forum, so, hopefully my questions won't be too low-brow!

If you think I'm mad - please just tell me

Currently, in my house there is already an alarm fitted (Honeywell components mostly) which has 3 motions sensors (PIRs I believe they're called), 10 wireless connectors (on 2 doors and 8 windows), what looks like a old wifi router that has a loud alarm bell attached (but takes a sim card for alerts) and finally a crappy external siren which I believe isn't even wired up - but has been so weather beaten that it is hanging on it's hinges!
Also, I noticed that the house is actually WIRED for an alarm, i.e. each window/door has a cable running to it and there is a white blank box (just a casing) in the main hall where they all come back to - and a cable near the front door at waist height (I assume for a keypad).

Eh, while it should be noted that I inherited this setup and know little about it, I love taking on projects and "trying my hand" at different things. I'm sure whoever "did" the last job should probably be shot, but never-the-less I fancy I could do a better job myself.

I know I could go to reputable alarm specialists who will gladly take ~€1000 and the job would be done and everything would be hunky-dory - but I'd enjoy the challenge of trying this myself

I've seen various other posts which reference the site:
(Ooops - as new user can't post URLs yet!)
rspl web ie



Now for the noob questions as promised!

Do inertia sensors also act as contact sensors, or is that what the "Shock Sensor with Magnetic Contact White or Brown" is for?


I see HKC, Texecom and Siemens all have similar products. Can you mix and match between them all? I.e. a Texecom keypad with a Siemens panel and HKC external siren? Or are you more or less locked into going with one company and that's that?


If I were to buy everything I would need to fit the alarm myself, i.e.:
1) Keypad and panel (HKC SW8/12)
2) External siren (HKC SABB)
3) 3 PIRs (HKC PIR)
4) 10 Inertia sensors/contacts/Shock sensor with mag. contact (UTC GS611 - will this work with ALL companies HKC/Texecom/Siemens?)
5) Text messaging: HKC GSM
I'm guessing those are the main components required for a typical HKC setup?


Any ideas how much a setup like that could cost me?






As a bonus noob question, on a scale of 1-10, how crazy would it be to go down the route of one of these:
(Ooops - as new user can't post URLs yet!)
Search on ebay for "HOMSECUR LCD Wireless GSM Autodial Home Office Burglar Intruder Alarm System"

Given that for less than €200, I'd get all of that, could I then retro-fit the shock sensors and maybe external siren?


Thank you for your time in helping a noob understand!

My only advice , stay well away from anything that isnt HKC !

And as an installer of over. 20 years the hkc 8/12 panel is a peach of a system for domestic installations .

kub

grip n rip wrote: »

My only advice , stay well away from anything that isnt HKC !

And as an installer of over. 20 years the hkc 8/12 panel is a peach of a system for domestic installations .

How about the 10/70, hasn't that got more up to date features than the 8/12.

grip n rip

kub wrote: »

How about the 10/70, hasn't that got more up to date features than the 8/12.

It does indeed but as i always say to customers at the end of the day its an alarm , you turn it on at night or when house is empty & off when you get home .

Very easy to over complicate things , the 1070 panel is a great system no doubt & offers the ability to add all types of wireless points , for most pre wired 3/4 bed semi's the 8/12 is more than good enough

kub

I stopped using them about 6 months ago, I agree with your practical thoughts though and see where you are coming from with regard to the average pre wired 3 bed semi.

I find the flexibility of the 10/70 unbeatable it ticks all the boxes especially now with the long awaited app which will be released later this month.
I have to wonder though how long more HKC are going to be making the 8/12.

KoolKid

grip n rip wrote: »

My only advice , stay well away from anything that isnt HKC !

And as an installer of over. 20 years the hkc 8/12 panel is a peach of a system for domestic installations .

Crazy advice IMO.
Your an installer for over 20 years and this is all you install or recommend for domestic installs??
This is technology that is basically over 20 years old. Electronic and communication technology has moved on and you should do the same. People want and expect more. Newer and better systems are no more expensive so why not offer them.

If I went into a phone shop I wouldn't expect to be offered a Nokia 3110 or if I went into a TV shop I wouldn't expect the guy there to try and sell me some TV with dials and tubes just because someone thinks it's the best.
Likewise I'd be very suspicious of any of these type of shops if they only offered one brand.

martinr5232

kub wrote: »

I stopped using them about 6 months ago, I agree with your practical thoughts though and see where you are coming from with regard to the average pre wired 3 bed semi.

I find the flexibility of the 10/70 unbeatable it ticks all the boxes especially now with the long awaited app which will be released later this month.
I have to wonder though how long more HKC are going to be making the 8/12.

What will this app do ??

KoolKid

martinr5232 wrote: »

What will this app do ??

Hopefully the same as all the others. Set, unset , part set ext.
Isolate or inhibit zones, view the log, view IP cameras get notifications of alarms & control external devices remotely.
I heard a rumor this will have to be paid for. Others are fre so I hope thats not going to be the case.

martinr5232

KoolKid wrote: »

Hopefully the same as all the others. Set, unset , part set ext.
Isolate or inhibit zones, view the log, view IP cameras get notifications of alarms & control external devices remotely.
I heard a rumor this will have to be paid for. Others are fre so I hope thats not going to be the case.

Cheers for that how will the app operate will it need to be connected to wifi if so will the panel require some sort of a reciever like the gsm dialer or is it installed already ??

grip n rip

KoolKid wrote: »

Crazy advice IMO.
Your an installer for over 20 years and this is all you install or recommend for domestic installs??
This is technology that is basically over 20 years old. Electronic and communication technology has moved on and you should do the same. People want and expect more. Newer and better systems are no more expensive so why not offer them.

If I went into a phone shop I wouldn't expect to be offered a Nokia 3110 or if I went into a TV shop I wouldn't expect the guy there to try and sell me some TV with dials and tubes just because someone thinks it's the best.
Likewise I'd be very suspicious of any of these type of shops if they only offered one brand.

Do you install alarms ? Meet people daily and listen to their wants and needs ? If the answer is "yes" then i would take on board your opinion on this , however as a fully licensed installer i listen to what people expect from an alarm system and advise accordingly & all im saying is that its easy to over complicate things , the 8/12 panel can detect intrusion & alert monitoring station just as well as a 10/70 .

Anything after that is where the extra 10/70 facilities come into effect . And sure some people want/need these and my advise is to then go for that panel but to be honest most domestic installations i find the 8/12 suffices at the present time .

As for when it will stop being made i honestly dont know , im sure the way things are moving forward with the app etc it probably will cease sooner rather than later but as a simple alarm system its still hard to beat .

Of course i inform all my customers of every product available , it would be remiss of me not to but honestly unless its a system that has part or all wireless points most go for the HKC 8/12 in smaller domestic situations .

Another panel worth mentioning is the Quantum wireless .

One thing i don't recommend is wireless bell boxes , good if you can have a permanent 12v supply but if just using batteries it dies a very quick death .

Horses for courses is what I'm eluding to i guess , best advise i can finish with is to go over every option with your installer & find the one that suits your needs/requirements best .

KoolKid

Yes I am a licenced installer. We stopped using the Securewatch range a long time ago as we find it very dated. I would always talk to customers about what they want and need. Most people want wireless as an option to use key fobs etc and have the option to expand the system in the future.
The majority now ask about apps and remote access. So much so that we have decided that all our installs & upgrades have the option for IP access.
What I find most from talking to people during surveys is people don't listen & don't want to install anything else.
I get people asking specifically for IP & yet being still quoted by installers for HKC 6/10 or 8/12. As far as 2 years ago I had people almost being sold 1070s on the basis the app would be out any day now. I, on a weekly, basis get calls from people looking for work done on Siemens alarms after being told by 10+ companies no one does them. I get an equal number of calls from people with Astec after being told to buy a complete new system because they need a new sensor or bell or the likes.
However what I don't understand is why you would install a HKC 8/12 over the 1070. Pricewise there is not a lot of difference and as you said yourself.

grip n rip wrote: »

the best system by a country mile is the hkc hybrid 1070

grip n rip

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes I am a licenced installer. We stopped using the Securewatch range a long time ago as we find it very dated. I would always talk to customers about what they want and need. Most people want wireless as an option to use key fobs etc and have the option to expand the system in the future.
The majority now ask about apps and remote access. So much so that we have decided that all our installs & upgrades have the option for IP access.
What I find most from talking to people during surveys is people don't listen & don't want to install anything else.
I get people asking specifically for IP & yet being still quoted by installers for HKC 6/10 or 8/12. As far as 2 years ago I had people almost being sold 1070s on the basis the app would be out any day now. I, on a weekly, basis get calls from people looking for work done on Siemens alarms after being told by 10+ companies no one does them. I get an equal number of calls from people with Astec after being told to buy a complete new system because they need a new sensor or bell or the likes.
However what I don't understand is why you would install a HKC 8/12 over the 1070. Pricewise there is not a lot of difference and as you said yourself.

Tried both siemens & astec systems but tbh i don't rate them , each to their own i guess , i dont tell my customers what they need i listen to their requirements & advise accordingly letting them fully understand the pro's and cons of every system available .

kub

I have to say that I do find that HKC do tick all the boxes but having said that I do not think it is good for ones mentality to stick with the one product all the time. Therefore we stick with HKC or the ATS1000 on domestic installs but on commercials we are beginning to use Siemens.

grip n rip

kub wrote: »

I have to say that I do find that HKC do tick all the boxes but having said that I do not think it is good for ones mentality to stick with the one product all the time. Therefore we stick with HKC or the ATS1000 on domestic installs but on commercials we are beginning to use Siemens.

Good point i reckon , its no good to solely rely on one brand i think , although for a good while it was really between hkc & aritech but the latter was not very good i think .

Have any of you installed the new hd infra red domes ? Unbelievable improvement on classic ptz's

stuartkee

The Hkc app will be done with a world data sim card supplied by hkc I had it for 3 days at the ideal home expo last month on trial I was very impressed with it worked 100% of the time looks good to your company name is branded in the app to will have a yearly standing charge for the sim card of course

KoolKid

I can understand the sim being handy for areas with poor or no broadband. But if the panel has IP why not use a broadband connection where you wouldn't need any sim charges. That side of it sounds like like a bit of a revenue spinner to me.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

I can understand the sim being handy for areas with poor or no broadband. But if the panel has IP why not use a broadband connection where you wouldn't need any sim charges. That side of it sounds like like a bit of a revenue spinner to me.

They are realising 3 units, the one that has been mentioned, one that works with a wireless LAN and another where you can plug an RJ45 cable into it and into a router.

I think they will be making coin out of the first one alright

KoolKid

And will be they charging for an actual LAN connection to use the app??

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

And will be they charging for an actual LAN connection to use the app??

I don't think so, afaik its only the one with the SIM.

KoolKid

Ta.
I hope so. I don't think that's the road to be going down.

jimmyoc

Hi,KoolKid,can you please tell me what i require for 3 bed house with 8 windows opening downstairs,a front and back door and 3 rooms upstairs. The downstairs is my main concern as there are 7 rooms in all,i want to put in a wireless system.i intend to use your rec' siemens 4000.i hope you can help.jim.

KoolKid

Using Siemens wireless you would be putting wireless contacts on each window.
You can wire out of these with wired contacts if there are multiple openings.
Going with this then I'd recommend PiR sensors in hall, landing & lounge and kitchen areas.
The panel you want is an SPC4320K1, this comes with pace keypad and fobs.
You will also need a wireless gateway.

Evolution1

martinr5232 wrote: »

Cheers for that how will the app operate will it need to be connected to wifi if so will the panel require some sort of a reciever like the gsm dialer or is it installed already ??

If you want the app for the HKC 10/70 you'll have to get an installer to connect it up..
If you want to verify an intrusion with photos/videos have a look at Siemens or Risco agility 3 gear.
The Risco agility 3 has PIR cameras that send photos to the app upon activation. Both offer Free apps that that you can setup yourself and the wireless sensors are smaller and better priced compared to HKCs gear. HKCs stuff is fine if you want a standard alarm and the gear will last, but you'll pay for it and won't have all the cool features other brands have.

Riscos RF door/window sensors are €30-€40
Riscos RF PIR cameras are €100

HKCs RF door/window/ PIR sensors are €60

There's no major difference between the two except the price.
Risco PIRs are 2-way like HKCs.
Riscos door/window sensors are 1-way which doesn't matter as they don't sleep.

kub

I would have to recommend the use of Inertia shock sensors and contacts to all of your downstairs windows. Do Siemens/ Risco do these?

Evolution1

Risco have shock/reed sensors. €40-€50

altor

kub wrote: »

I would have to recommend the use of Inertia shock sensors and contacts to all of your downstairs windows.

Have to agree, just installing contacts on a window is asking for trouble :eek:
An intruder smashes your window or takes out the glass to gain entry will not be picked up by a contact unless the intruder opens the window.