Nationalist’s victims of troubles once again denied justice

que pasa

Taoiseach Enda Kenny expressed ‘disappointment’ at Northern Secretary Theresa Villiers decision to reject a call for the creation of an independent panel to investigate the Ballymurphy killings in west Belfast in 1971 which resulted in 11 deaths.

A mother of eight children was among those shot dead by British Army Paratroopers.

Expressing 'disappointment' is hardly what is required from the Irish Taoiseach. This is the fundamental reason why Sinn Fein garners so much support from northern Nationalists. When it comes to campaigning for victims of British State murder, southern parties have always remained silent. It is this very silence that will lead to their downfall since neither the southern nor northern justice systems can ever accommodate for nationalist victims of the troubles.

Note how Irish Times has disabled comment section for this story.

''Villiers rejects call for independent Ballymurphy killings inquiry''-Irish Times

alastair

que pasa wrote: »

When it comes to campaigning for victims of British State murder, southern parties have always remained silent. It is this very silence that will lead to their downfall since neither the southern nor northern justice systems can ever accommodate for nationalist victims of the troubles.

Given that they don't have any involvement in Northern politics, I'm not sure how this would lead to their downfall.

bumper234

que pasa wrote: »

Taoiseach Enda Kenny expressed ‘disappointment’ at Northern Secretary Theresa Villiers decision to reject a call for the creation of an independent panel to investigate the Ballymurphy killings in west Belfast in 1971 which resulted in 11 deaths.

A mother of eight children was among those shot dead by British Army Paratroopers.

Expressing 'disappointment' is hardly what is required from the Irish Taoiseach. This is the fundamental reason why Sinn Fein garners so much support from northern Nationalists. When it comes to campaigning for victims of British State murder, southern parties have always remained silent. It is this very silence that will lead to their downfall since neither the southern nor northern justice systems can ever accommodate for nationalist victims of the troubles.

Note how Irish Times has disabled comment section for this story.

''Villiers rejects call for independent Ballymurphy killings inquiry''-Irish Times

He should declare war?

Tramps Like Us

I agree with most of what you say OP but Enda Kenny and co are afraid to make too much of a fuss beyond "raising" it with Cameron etc because they want to be spared the humiliation when the British government inevitably ignore them. And tbf they'd do the same no matter who was in government down here.

Just to add that the murder of Irish people by another state is definitely the business of the Irish government.

old hippy

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say OP but Enda Kenny and co are afraid to make too much of a fuss beyond "raising" it with Cameron etc because they want to be spared the humiliation when the British government inevitably ignore them. And tbf they'd do the same no matter who was in government down here.

Just to add that the murder of Irish people by another state is definitely the business of the Irish government.

It's the UK killing its own citizens. Disturbing and needs investigating but not sure what it has to do with the Republic.

Tramps Like Us

old hippy wrote: »

It's the UK killing its own citizens. Disturbing and needs investigating but not sure what it has to do with the Republic.

I'm not getting into a discussion with someone who denies the Irishness of fellow Irish people just because they were born in the north.

People like you have existed in some fantasy world where you try and wash your hands of the north and pretend its nothing to do with you - not only is this incorrect, it is an insult to the hundreds of thousands of Irish citizens who live in that part of Ireland. In addition it was the involvement of both governments which led to the peace process - people all over ireland voted on the GFA of course they have a stake in the peace process and the north

If left to the likes of you with your attitude people would still be getting gunned down in the north

Karl Stein

old hippy wrote: »

It's the UK killing its own citizens. Disturbing and needs investigating but not sure what it has to do with the Republic.

The two-piece two-colour jigsaw concept of Ireland rears its simple little head again.

You might want to check up on your knowledge of the Irish Constitution.

Article 2

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland

So these people have an entitlement and birthright to be part of the Irish nation - with that in mind what other jurisdiction is going to be able to raise concerns on an inter-governmental level on their behalf?

Don't answer that, that's a rhetorical question. I suspect a number of like-minded two-piece jigsaw puzzlers will be along shortly to deface the thread and ape your simplistic stance.

Happyman42

The Irish Government at the time didn't stand up for them and they are hardly going to do it now saying as they have completely bent over for the British.
It is why I think that SF coming to power here (only a matter of time) is essential for these issues to be finally dealt with. Enda probably had somebody down in the British Embassy (a la Gilmore with the Americans) rehearsing how they where going to respond...or more likely, being told how to respond.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

The Irish Government at the time didn't stand up for them and they are hardly going to do it now saying as they have completely bent over for the British.
It is why I think that SF coming to power here (only a matter of time) is essential for these issues to be finally dealt with. Enda probably had somebody down in the British Embassy (a la Gilmore with the Americans) rehearsing how they where going to respond...or more likely, being told how to respond.

That's ironic, considering Sinn Fein had the british government schooling them on how to sell the good Friday agreement to its own people, the British government even went as far as teaching Sinn Fein how to critise the british government. Recommend you take a read of Paul dixons "Northern Ireland, the politics of war and peace" for further information

Fratton Fred

I'd be surprised if we see any more enquiries now. The relatives of the Birmingham pub bombs were told the same thing, it looks like a line is gradually being drawn under the whole thing.

twowheelsgood

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Just to add that the murder of Irish people by another state is definitely the business of the Irish government.

True, the fate of Irish citizens (as opposed to Irish people) is the concern of the Irish government in Northern Ireland, just as it is in any foreign jurisdiction.

But just as with anywhere else, the government can do little more than make representations and express disappointment if these are unsuccessful.

Nodin

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say OP but Enda Kenny and co are afraid to make too much of a fuss beyond "raising" it with Cameron etc because they want to be spared the humiliation when the British government inevitably ignore them. And tbf they'd do the same no matter who was in government down here.

Just to add that the murder of Irish people by another state is definitely the business of the Irish government.

Given the record of Fine Gael, I wouldn't imagine theres much concern.

IrishProd

junder wrote: »

That's ironic, considering Sinn Fein had the british government schooling them on how to sell the good Friday agreement to its own people, the British government even went as far as teaching Sinn Fein how to critise the british government. Recommend you take a read of Paul dixons "Northern Ireland, the politics of war and peace" for further information

What has any of this got to do with the Ballymurphy massacre? Care to actually address the topic at hand instead coming out with your usual ****e?

Godge

Enda Kenny's language should have been stronger and the pressure on the UK on this issue should be maintained.

However, some of the rank hypocrisy on this issue from those who don't want Adams to face questioning on Jean McConville is sickening.

Unfortunately, on this issue, Enda Kenny cannot hold the inquiry himself. Adams, though could own up to his own role in everything that went on and identify many of the killers of innocents. At the very least, by acting in this way, he would shame the British government into an enquiry on Ballymurphy.

The only way we will ever get the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that SF want is if someone makes the first move. Over to you, Gerry and Martin.

old hippy

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

I'm not getting into a discussion with someone who denies the Irishness of fellow Irish people just because they were born in the north.

People like you have existed in some fantasy world where you try and wash your hands of the north and pretend its nothing to do with you - not only is this incorrect, it is an insult to the hundreds of thousands of Irish citizens who live in that part of Ireland. In addition it was the involvement of both governments which led to the peace process - people all over ireland voted on the GFA of course they have a stake in the peace process and the north

If left to the likes of you with your attitude people would still be getting gunned down in the north

"The likes of me", lol. I'm not denying their "Irishness" should they see themselves that way. But Ireland is 2 nations, not one. And long may it continue. Best way forward is to go independent of both the UK and Republic's interests. Like many others here, I support the peace process and all the progress that has been made. Where we differ is that I believe that the final hurdle for the 6 counties/NI is to rid itself of the 2 other countries which vie for dominion over it.

pO1Neil

If Enda had the balls he'd take them to the European courts like the government did in 70's for the torture of prisoners in Long Kesh.

Anyway it's knock but the struggle for justice for the families of the victims will go on.

Azwaldo55

It was a war. Time to move on. We have peace now.

Godge

pO1Neil wrote: »

If Enda had the balls he'd take them to the European courts like the government did in 70's for the torture of prisoners in Long Kesh.

Anyway it's knock but the struggle for justice for the families of the victims will go on.

I hope you will join in the struggle for justice for the families of the disappeared.

eire4

pO1Neil wrote: »

If Enda had the balls he'd take them to the European courts like the government did in 70's for the torture of prisoners in Long Kesh.

Anyway it's knock but the struggle for justice for the families of the victims will go on.

I hope your not counting on that happening. The way Enda Kenny tried to use the Adams arrest for political advantage showed me all I needed to know about Enda Kenny in terms of bringing a true and lasting peace to all of Ireland.

eire4

Godge wrote: »

I hope you will join in the struggle for justice for the families of the disappeared.

I would go further then that. What we need is a truth forum that is independant and that can investigate and bring forth the truth on all the atrocities. Sadly it would have a lot of work to do and would have to be in operation for many years. But I firmly believe this would be a very positive step toward a true and lasting peace in Ireland if this was done.

twowheelsgood

eire4 wrote: »

I hope your not counting on that happening. The way Enda Kenny tried to use the Adams arrest for political advantage showed me all I needed to know about Enda Kenny in terms of bringing a true and lasting peace to all of Ireland.

Really? I don’t recall him getting involved at all.

eire4 wrote: »

I would go further then that. What we need is a truth forum that is independant and that can investigate and bring forth the truth on all the atrocities.

The truth about all atrocities is simply unobtainable. Even if the perpetrators on both sides were prepared to bare their souls (they’re not), many of them are now likely dead and the truth lost with them.

eire4

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Really? I don’t recall him getting involved at all.






The truth about all atrocities is simply unobtainable. Even if the perpetrators on both sides were prepared to bare their souls (they’re not), many of them are now likely dead and the truth lost with them.

Yes he spoke on the topic.


So are you saying don't bother trying to set up an independant body to seek out the truth because you don't think it will achieve much?
Personally I am not so glass half empty on the idea. I am not saying it would be a panacea. But I think it could achieve a lot and certainly help in the healing process.

twowheelsgood

eire4 wrote: »

Yes he spoke on the topic.

But what did he say that you construed as amounting to using the arrest for political advantage?

eire4 wrote: »

So are you saying don't bother trying to set up an independant body to seek out the truth because you don't think it will achieve much?

It will achieve close to nothing without a willingness by those involved to “fess” up. Nobody is prepared to do that. Republicans pretend that they are but the whole Adams/McConville business clearly shows that they are as protective of their old soldiers as the British are.

As nothing along this line was done in the last two decades it is hard to see why anything will happen now.

Happyman42

twowheelsgood wrote: »

It will achieve close to nothing without a willingness by those involved to “fess” up. Nobody is prepared to do that. Republicans pretend that they are but the whole Adams/McConville business clearly shows that they are as protective of their old soldiers as the British are.

As nothing along this line was done in the last two decades it is hard to see why anything will happen now.

You expect one side to 'fess' up while the others watch on?

You don't get the whole idea very well, do you?

SF have said they want a T&R process, the British and Unionists have resisted it. Go figure.

twowheelsgood

Happyman42 wrote: »

You expect one side to 'fess' up while the others watch on?

You don't get the whole idea very well, do you?

SF have said they want a T&R process, the British and Unionists have resisted it. Go figure.

No it would have to be everybody or nobody and quite clearly it will be nobody.

But continue to delude yourself in to thinking that republicans are being sincere on this matter if you wish.

jellyboy

I would advocate a truth and reconciliation process ..with a core message of forgiveness..

this hunger,desire for more bloody words is a continuation of the past

Let us put our pain to rest and use the atrocities committed by both sides to never allow it to happen on our Ireland again

A legacy of compassion and empathy born out of blood and pain..

Karl Stein

twowheelsgood wrote: »

But continue to delude yourself in to thinking that republicans are being sincere on this matter if you wish.

SF have come out in favour of the Haas proposals which includes limited immunity for people who want to come forward about their role in the past.

Unionists have not signed up.

Now I know you have a distorted anti-Republican/Nationalist view of these issues but the above speaks volumes to those who don't have their fingers in their ears while loudly saying 'la-la-la-not-listening-la-la-la'.

twowheelsgood

Karl Stein wrote: »

SF have come out in favour of the Haas proposals which includes limited immunity for people who want to come forward about their role in the past.

Unionists have not signed up.

Unionists, for all their faults, tend to be honest. Republicans know full well that their bluff won’t be called on this so they can happily continue to spoof.

And even if they were sincere they could do little to deliver it. The individual “soldiers” would have to decide if they wanted to cooperate and the simply wouldn’t do so.

Karl Stein wrote: »

Now I know you have a distorted anti-Republican/Nationalist view of these issues but the above speaks volumes to those who don't have their fingers in their ears while loudly saying 'la-la-la-not-listening-la-la-la'.

Anti-nationalism (of all kinds, not just Irish nationalism) but yes, I do think there is legitimate cause for concern about Irish republicans. But OT.

Blackjack

twowheelsgood wrote: »

But what did he say that you construed as amounting to using the arrest for political advantage?

You'll be waiting a while to hear back on that question I think.
From anything I read or heard on it, he said nothing of any significance that would have or could have been construed as using it for Political advantage.

I stand open to correction, but I doubt it will happen.

Karl Stein

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Unionists, for all their faults, tend to be honest.

So Unionists are honest and Republicans/Nationalists are dishonest? Is this the claim you're making?

Republicans know full well that their bluff won’t be called on this so they can happily continue to spoof.

Why won't 'their bluff' be called and by whom?

The individual “soldiers” would have to decide if they wanted to cooperate and the simply wouldn’t do so.

So you can predict the future now too? Mystic Meg betta watch out. You know I'd say you'd have been the type of person who would have said:

The IRA will never go on ceasefire.
The IRA will never decommission.
Reps/Nats and Unionists will never sit with each other in government.
Unionists will never allow the RUC to be effectively disbanded.
The north will never be at peace.

But OT.

You are anti-Nationalist, suspicious of Republicans and think Unionists are 'generally honest' but this is off topic? Dear me you seriously lack self-awareness of your patently obvious prejudices.

twowheelsgood

Karl Stein wrote: »

So Unionists are honest and Republicans/Nationalists are dishonest? Is this the claim you're making?

Well it was a throw-away comment but I supposed I should have expected an opportunity to take offence would have been gleefully taken. But as you ask, yes, with respect to the big question, I would say unionists have tended to be more honest. The really would like have liked their protestant state for a protestant people if they had their way.

Nationalist persist with this dead parrot-like pretence that unionists have a valuable role to play in a future united Ireland etc. etc. even though a 10 year old child could see that unionist culture is all but despised by Irish nationalists

Karl Stein wrote: »

Why won't 'their bluff' be called and by whom?

I cannot ever see the British coming completely clean on the wrong-doings of their army, which of course is still very much active.

Karl Stein wrote: »

So you can predict the future now too? Mystic Meg betta watch out.

Meg’s job is secure. She deals with the uncertainties. My substantial point involves no uncertainty. It is a simple truth that many of those that did wrong in a conflict that began almost half a century ago are now dead and cannot provide testaments on their actions, even if they were willing to. Thus justice, or even truth, for all is simply unobtainable.

Karl Stein wrote: »

You are anti-Nationalist, suspicious of Republicans and think Unionists are 'generally honest' but this is off topic? Dear me you seriously lack self-awareness of your patently obvious prejudices.

Ah yes, my prejudices! Some of your allies here make a similar point citing “agendas”. I certainly don’t deny that I am firmly on one side, or firmly against one side, to be more precise.

But those that talk about prejudices and agendas seem to be unaware are every bit as much in possession of these attributes, albeit different ones, as those that they accuse! Presumably you don’t imagine yourself to be a beacon of impartiality in these matters? Posters who genuinely are impartial tend to steer clear of these threads.

Karl Stein

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I supposed I should have expected an opportunity to take offence would have been gleefully taken.

Who's offended? You have a habit of adopting postions for people and putting words in their mouths they never spoke. Would you stop doing that? Its boring and dishonest.

But as you ask, yes, with respect to the big question, I would say unionists have tended to be more honest. The really would like have liked their protestant state for a protestant people if they had their way.

More honest about wanting to maintain a sectarian state and not having any 'taigs about the place'? You have a bizarre way of attributing virtue to honesty.

even though a 10 year old child could see that unionist culture is all but despised by Irish nationalists

Unionism is a political stance not a culture. I suspect you mean the Orange Order and Loyalist parading when you talk of 'Unionist culture'? You're attributing of a hateful hive mind to Nationalists exposes your nasty prejudices. Isn't that a breach of the charter?

The police have praised those who worked behind the scenes in Londonderry to ensure the annual Apprentice Boys parade passed off without incident.

Thousands took part in the event which commemorates the 1688 Siege of Derry.

Apprentice Boys Governor Jim Brownlee said the local parades model worked because an understanding had been developed on all sides.

Inspector McKeown said: "The atmosphere has been good, people have been happy, people have felt welcomed in the city, that's spectators and participants alike.
bbc.com

I cannot ever see the British coming completely clean on the wrong-doings of their army, which of course is still very much active.

And this is the crux of the issue.

It is a simple truth that many of those that did wrong in a conflict that began almost half a century ago are now dead and cannot provide testaments on their actions, even if they were willing to. Thus justice, or even truth, for all is simply unobtainable.

Oh I agree. The opportunity for justice for people like the Bloody Sunday relatives or the Kingsmill families is long gone. What were talking about is getting at the truth - the truth of the dirty war Unionists and the British pretended they weren't fighting.

I certainly don’t deny that I am firmly on one side, or firmly against one side, to be more precise.

Oh I think denying what is glaringly obvious would do your substantially prejudiced image no good.

But those that talk about prejudices and agendas seem to be unaware are every bit as much in possession of these attributes, albeit different ones, as those that they accuse!

Some more than others.

Presumably you don’t imagine yourself to be a beacon of impartiality in these matters?

Oh I've never tried to hide where my loyalties lie - that's not to say I hate Unionists or Loyalists, I don't like some of the things they do that antagonise Nationalists but I don't speak of my fellow human beings like you do of Nationalists.

unionist culture is all but despised by Irish nationalists

Funny, isn't it, how you talk of your hatred of Nationalism and yet come out with negative nationalist-like statements about a huge tranche of people?

Happyman42

twowheelsgood wrote: »

No it would have to be everybody or nobody and quite clearly it will be nobody.

But continue to delude yourself in to thinking that republicans are being sincere on this matter if you wish.

There is a significant body of evidence...press interviews, books, history projects, peace and reconciliation initiatives (some of which I have been involved in) that show clearly that the side that is willing to talk about the past is the republican side.
Your bias is showing.

eire4

twowheelsgood wrote: »

But what did he say that you construed as amounting to using the arrest for political advantage?

It will achieve close to nothing without a willingness by those involved to “fess” up. Nobody is prepared to do that. Republicans pretend that they are but the whole Adams/McConville business clearly shows that they are as protective of their old soldiers as the British are.

As nothing along this line was done in the last two decades it is hard to see why anything will happen now.

Sinn Fein was clear about being willing to sign up to the Haas proposals. So to say nobody is prepared to do that is not correct. But it seems when the side you don't like doesn't do something that fits your narrative your quick to dismiss it as not true anyway. Never mind reading your post it at least to me implies that a truth forum is worthless because it is not a guaranteed success prior to its formation and start. To my way of thinking sometimes the greatest accomplishments have been achieved by those who believe in something worthwhile and despite odds against them succeeding have gone and pursued their goals anyway.


A truth forum that is real and indpendant will have a long and tough uphill climb no doubt about it. But that does not mean we should just throw up our hands and say forget it. There needs to be a fourm and there needs to be a start made. I unlike you believe there are a lot more people on both sides are willing to engage and that once a start is made momentum can be a big factor in making a truth forum a success in time.




As for Enda Kenny he made a speach towing the David Cameron line that this not politcal and was just a reasonable police action in the investigation of this crime. I find that laughable especially given the fact that the British denied the request for an inquiry into the Ballymurphy murders by British paratroopers while arresting a member of Dail Eireann a contrast which Enda Kenny seemed fine with based on his speach.

Fratton Fred

eire4 wrote: »

As for Enda Kenny he made a speach towing the David Cameron line that this not politcal and was just a reasonable police action in the investigation of this crime. I find that laughable especially given the fact that the British denied the request for an inquiry into the Ballymurphy murders by British paratroopers while arresting a member of Dail Eireann a contrast which Enda Kenny seemed fine with based on his speach.

The relatives of the Birmingham victims were told the same thing.

In light of Sinn Fein's view that there is no hierarchy of victims and their desire to reconcile the past, why are republicans not campaigning to have the perpetrators of that atrocity named ?

eire4

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The relatives of the Birmingham victims were told the same thing.

In light of Sinn Fein's view that there is no hierarchy of victims and their desire to reconcile the past, why are republicans not campaigning to have the perpetrators of that atrocity named ?

By supporting the Haas proposals they are supporting efforts to deal with the past.
Beyond that come on now that was just a point scoring exercice of a comment about Birmingham anyway.
It is quite clear we need less of the cheap point scoring and a fully independant truth forum that investigations all the atrocities.

Lastlight.

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Well it was a throw-away comment but I supposed I should have expected an opportunity to take offence would have been gleefully taken. But as you ask, yes, with respect to the big question, I would say unionists have tended to be more honest. The really would like have liked their protestant state for a protestant people if they had their way.

Nationalist persist with this dead parrot-like pretence that unionists have a valuable role to play in a future united Ireland etc. etc. even though a 10 year old child could see that unionist culture is all but despised by Irish nationalists
I cannot ever see the British coming completely clean on the wrong-doings of their army, which of course is still very much active.

Meg’s job is secure. She deals with the uncertainties. My substantial point involves no uncertainty. It is a simple truth that many of those that did wrong in a conflict that began almost half a century ago are now dead and cannot provide testaments on their actions, even if they were willing to. Thus justice, or even truth, for all is simply unobtainable.
Ah yes, my prejudices! Some of your allies here make a similar point citing “agendas”. I certainly don’t deny that I am firmly on one side, or firmly against one side, to be more precise.

But those that talk about prejudices and agendas seem to be unaware are every bit as much in possession of these attributes, albeit different ones, as those that they accuse! Presumably you don’t imagine yourself to be a beacon of impartiality in these matters? Posters who genuinely are impartial tend to steer clear of these threads.

This is true. Irish Republicans can't stand the Ulster Scots culture and the traditional values of its people.

Fratton Fred

eire4 wrote: »

By supporting the Haas proposals they are supporting efforts to deal with the past.
Beyond that come on now that was just a point scoring exercice of a comment about Birmingham anyway.
It is quite clear we need less of the cheap point scoring and a fully independant truth forum that investigations all the atrocities.

Do you honestly believe SF want this?

Do you honestly believe that Gerry Adams will stand up and openly and honestly give details about his involvement in the PIRA?

SF have more to lose from this than anybody else.

moxin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you honestly believe SF want this?

Do you honestly believe that Gerry Adams will stand up and openly and honestly give details about his involvement in the PIRA?

SF have more to lose from this than anybody else.

The British state is far bigger than a single Irish political party and have far more to lose when the truth comes about about their involvement in state sponsored murder.

Fratton Fred

moxin wrote: »

The British state is far bigger than a single Irish political party and have far more to lose when the truth comes about about their involvement in state sponsored murder.

Do you mean "them", the ruling elite lizard people?

David Cameron? Nope, didn't happen in his watch.

Theresa May? Nope, same again.

Theresa Villiers? No again.

Gerry Adams? Yes.
Martin McGuinnes? Yes

daveob007

old hippy wrote: »

"The likes of me", lol. I'm not denying their "Irishness" should they see themselves that way. But Ireland is 2 nations, not one. And long may it continue. Best way forward is to go independent of both the UK and Republic's interests. Like many others here, I support the peace process and all the progress that has been made. Where we differ is that I believe that the final hurdle for the 6 counties/NI is to rid itself of the 2 other countries which vie for dominion over it.

dont agree,the irish consitution claim over the north was given up,now its just the brits who claim ownership under the banner of majority rule.
ireland is not 2 nations,never was and never should be.the british interest is a selfish one,the north was created after the treaty because is had a unionist majority which suited the british and still does when it comes to votes in westminster. no other reason,the majority of british people want to give the north back also.

eire4

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you honestly believe SF want this?

Do you honestly believe that Gerry Adams will stand up and openly and honestly give details about his involvement in the PIRA?

SF have more to lose from this than anybody else.

I would say yes to the first question. I would disagree and say that the British political establishment, military and security has way more face to lose then Sinn Fein. But for me it is not about point scoring it is simply about getting a truth forum that can heal heal our country.

Fratton Fred

eire4 wrote: »

I would say yes to the first question. I would disagree and say that the British political establishment, military and security has way more face to lose then Sinn Fein. But for me it is not about point scoring it is simply about getting a truth forum that can heal heal our country.

We're back to those lizard people again.

eire4

Fratton Fred wrote: »

We're back to those lizard people again.

You lost me with that. Fair enough you don't like Sinn Fein. Thats your opinion and your entitled to that. But cheap insults like that really add and offer nothing.

I am pie

Justice for all or not at all. You can't pick and chose your causes SF supporters, we either have a warts and all deep dive into the dirty war of the troubles including the activities of senior replublicans, senior unionist politicians and the British & Irish govt or we move forward.

It's a harsh reality but I'm afraid that truth and justice have been sacrificed for stability. I don't like it but that's the reality.

What did the multi year, multi million pound/euro bloody sunday inquiry achieve? An apology. If all sides could maybe just apologise we could move on. I know that's almost impossible for the families but it's horribly necessar evil.

I do believe the British Army acted incompetently in Ballymurphy, I don't think it was premeditated murder but it was certainly calamitous with fatal conseqences.

Fratton Fred

eire4 wrote: »

You lost me with that. Fair enough you don't like Sinn Fein. Thats your opinion and your entitled to that. But cheap insults like that really add and offer nothing.

You're talking about the. British establishment, what is the British establishment?

A truth process will show up senior republicans for being liars. Who, in the current British government had anything to do with the troubles?

There are some senior, "good republicans" who take offence at their affairs being looked in to. Just ask Eamonn Collins.

Karl Stein

I am pie wrote: »

If all sides could maybe just apologise we could move on.

In an unprecedented statement, the [PIRA] offered its "sincere apologies and condolences" to the families of victims during 30 years of violence.

At the same time it said it acknowledged the grief and pain of the families of the combatants - police, soldiers and loyalist paramilitaries - killed during the violence.

dailymail.co.uk

I'm unaware of any BGov apology for for the 150 civilians the BA killed and the collusion between their forces and loyalists who killed many hundreds of innocent unarmed Catholics.

Albertofrog

Lastlight. wrote: »

This is true. Irish Republicans can't stand the Ulster Scots culture and the traditional values of its people.

Define the Ulster Scots culture

junder

Albertofrog wrote: »

Define the Ulster Scots culture

Define any culture

Albertofrog

junder wrote: »

Define any culture

Well a culture has a written and oral language, music, dance and traditions.

eire4

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You're talking about the. British establishment, what is the British establishment?

A truth process will show up senior republicans for being liars. Who, in the current British government had anything to do with the troubles?

There are some senior, "good republicans" who take offence at their affairs being looked in to. Just ask Eamonn Collins.

I said in my last response you lost me with your lizard comment. Now you make your sweeping showing up senior republicans being liars comment. Your obviously someone who has a strong dislike for Sinn Fein and your entitled to that. But your one sided sweeping comments add nothing to the discussion for me.


My position has been and remains a very clear one looking for a fully independant truth forum which will look into the atrocities of both sides and help bring about a gradual healing process. It won't be easy and will be a long task but it is what I believe is needed. Not some one sided point scoring exercise.