US puts more sanctions on Russia - Do you agree with this?

Pa2k

The US have been invading and occupying country's with decades with no repercussions, is the trouble over Ukraine because it hurts there personal interests or are they genuinely trying to help? Could this spark World War 3 or is it too late already?

I Heart Internet

Putin is a mad man. He needs to be kept in his box. Sanctions and diplomacy are the only way of doing that without escalating things further.

Problem is, it is Putin's back-yard. As much as US/EU would like to help Ukraine protect itself, Putin cares very little for bloodshed or loss of life there if he can get the bragging rights he want.

SEPT 23 1989

I am not anti-American but what the hell has this got to do with America anyway?

I Heart Internet

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I am not anti-American but what the hell has this got to do with America anyway?

The alternative viewpoint is to say only countries directly involved have an interest in the outcome of this. That's surely not true?

Jonny7

Of course not, the international community should completely back down and allow Russia take whatever actions to obviously help the Ukrainian people - including snarfing Crimea, massing a huge army on the border and supporting heavily armed separatists.. whom, let's face it, wouldn't last 5 seconds if they were trying to separate from Moscow (Chechnya, Georgia, etc)

Adamantium

If World War 3 had any chance of happening, you wouldn't have enough time to post this before the first launches. Its all automatic

Over in a flash.

I Heart Internet

Adamantium wrote: »

If World War 3 had any chance of happening, you wouldn't have enough time to post this before the first launches. Its all automatic

Over in a flash.

Pfffffft!

Someone's obviously misplaced his iodine pills.

wes

Yes, they are right to do so, even if it is a breathtaking example of hypocrisy, seeing as, when a US client does the exact same things, they actively protect them doing so.

Franticfrank

Pa2k wrote: »

The US have been invading and occupying country's with decades with no repercussions

Occupying? The last I heard the U.S. were no longer occupying Vietnam and Iraq.

c_man

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I am not anti-American but what the hell has this got to do with America anyway?

America was one of the countries which agreed to respect the borders of the Ukraine when they were unilaterally giving up their Soviet nuclear arsenal. Add to that American NATO commitments to nervous regional bordering countries and I think it's pretty obvious why they're involved.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an "American! **** yeah!" type. I see American participation here as being on a footing with their presence in the MidEast peace talks, Taiwan/China etc. Not surprising in the slightest.

I Heart Internet

wes wrote: »

Yes, they are right to do so, even if it is a breathtaking example of hypocrisy, seeing as, when a US client does the exact same things, they actively protect them doing so.

Do they? I'm not being a smart-arse here...but what are the examples? Genuine question.

wes

Franticfrank wrote: »

Occupying? The last I heard the U.S. were no longer occupying Vietnam and Iraq.

So? The US has not repudiated there past behavior by lets say trying Geogre Bush/Dick Cheney etc for war crimes. It is fair to point out that the US will engage in such behavior like Russia, when it suits there interests.

wes

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Do they? I'm not being a smart-arse here...but what are the examples? Genuine question.

I rather not drag the thread off topic, hence why I made a veiled reference, but suffice to say, you can probably Google what US client I am talking about.

I agree Russia should have sanctions put on them, but lets not pretend that the US has issues with such a thing, when its one of there clients doing the same thing. IMHO, opponents to this, can rightly point out the hypocrisy.

I Heart Internet

wes wrote: »

I rather not drag the thread off topic, hence why I made a veiled reference, but suffice to say, you can probably Google what US client I am talking about.

OK - I think I know what you're referring to. A county beginning with I but not so much with the pasta? OK, thanks.

Franticfrank

wes wrote: »

So? The US has not repudiated there past behavior by lets say trying Geogre Bush/Dick Cheney etc for war crimes. It is fair to point out that the US will engage in such behavior like Russia, when it suits there interests.

You make a valid point but at least they left in the end and gave the country back to the Iraqis. Don't expect to see the Russians withdrawing from the Crimea anytime in the future.

ScumLord

Pa2k wrote: »

The US have been invading and occupying country's with decades with no repercussions,

What about 9-11? There have been repercussions, just because they're not obvious military actions doesn't mean there aren't consequences, there are always consequences.

wes

Franticfrank wrote: »

You make a valid point but at least they left in the end and gave the country back to the Iraqis. Don't expect to see the Russians withdrawing from the Crimea anytime in the future.

Yes, that is a fair difference to point out, but both actions come from the same place, of 2 states acting in what they see as there best interests.

Pa2k

ScumLord wrote: »

What about 9-11? There have been repercussions, just because they're not obvious military actions doesn't mean there aren't consequences, there are always consequences.

That wasn't the US having sanctions brought against them

MJ23

What I don't understand is, why are the Americans involved, and why do they think they're the boss?

Jonny7

wes wrote: »

Yes, that is a fair difference to point out, but both actions come from the same place, of 2 states acting in what they see as there best interests.

As disgusting as the Iraq war was - Obama did not take that decision, so I'm not sure what bearing it has on him passing sanctions on Russia in the current crisis

darkpagandeath

MJ23 wrote: »

What I don't understand is, why are the Americans involved, and why do they think they're the boss?

Hmmmm lets Google the word NATO...

BuilderPlumber

No, I don't agree with this stupidity. After all the mistakes of the last 10 years, George W Bush is obviously still the real president of America.

The Iraq war lead to the complete breakdown of a country in the Middle East, destabilised the whole region, plunged the world into the worst recession since the Great Depression, and encouraged others to follow the same lead (Israel and now Russia).

Russia may or may not be right to go into Eastern Ukraine. Whatever way, they have more of an argument to go in there than GWB's regime ever did. The US needs to get rid of the lobby groups and arms industry people who really control it and stay out of these things. US/EU involvement here makes matters worse not better.

Personally, I can only see one viable solution wrt Ukraine: allow it to break up in two or at least have a federal republic structure. The two halves of the country want very different things so the US, EU and Russia should work together to do what is right for Ukraine and NOT themselves!

In all reality, there are countries that do need to split as it is for the best. For example, West and North Iran should ditch the East of that country and allow the East to live in Voodooland while the West and North could go down the more secular road. At present, I feel many modern Iranians are living in fear of compromising too much to voodooist peasants in the East (these guys are largely non-Persian and thus not really part of the Iranian nation anyway) and fear terrorist attacks from them if they don't rather than giving these gangsters a homeland in return for not attacking Tehran or other cities. Iraq probably should never have existed as the entity it did as it is a mix of Arab and Kurd. Perhaps if Kurdistan was there in the North all along, the history of Iraq would have been different if Iraq was just the south of the entity.

Czechoslovakia broke up very peacefully of course. But Czech Republic does far better than Slovakia. I guess the same would be for all the above examples. One side would be richer than the other. Perhaps with Ukraine: the East could become allied to Russia and the West to the EU? Yugoslavia was the worst breakup of a country ever. Mainly due to the fact that the central government at the time did not want this and wanted to control it 100%. I fear Ukraine could well be the worst ethnic warfare in Europe since that unfortunate conflict.

Rhys Essien

MJ23 wrote: »

What I don't understand is, why are the Americans involved, and why do they think they're the boss?

Two reasons straight away,

Russia stopped America from attacking Syria
Russia gave amnesty to Edward Snowdon

Im sure both got America's blood boiling.

fran17

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hmmmm lets Google the word NATO...

but Ukraine is not in nato right?

Jonny7

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Two reasons straight away,

Russia stopped America from attacking Syria
Russia gave amnesty to Edward Snowdon

Im sure both got America's blood boiling.

Yeah and America has got it's mates Italy, France, Germany, Canada, Britain, France and Japan to gang up on Russia..

because that's how simple it is

scamalert

yeah and maybe British should take over the Ireland,given some peoples attitudes here,wonder how long would it take for them 10min between hour before full occupation ? fact is that Russia is largest country on the map but if taken closer look besides couple big cities 90% of the country if green full of resources that they dont bother to extract,not to mention outside cities people still live 20y behind and yet Russia manages to play balls with other countries,while ireland sent them potatoes couple years back bit of a joke having biggest country with most resources and being pi$$ broke because some nut case wants to play war while rest of the country is living decade behind.

wes

Jonny7 wrote: »

As disgusting as the Iraq war was - Obama did not take that decision, so I'm not sure what bearing it has on him passing sanctions on Russia in the current crisis

The fact that none of the perpetrators were not put on trial, being one major example. No one put on trial for torture etc. Yes, Obama was against the Iraq war, but the fact that he didn't do anything about those behind it and torture etc, doesn't speak well to his Administration and there handling of there own nations wrong doing. The fact nothing was done, show that that they clearly didn't see it as being all that wrong. If your not willing to clean up your own house, people won't take you serious when you complain about someone else house.

Regardless of Iraq, I still believe hypocrisy aside the US are right to sanction Russia.

Rhys Essien

Is it just the US and EU putting the sanctions on Russia?.Can Russia get by,trading with the Middle East,Africa,India and China?.

Will there not be big EU demand for Russian oil and gas in 6 months time?

What would happen if Russia,Iran,China etc started to trade oil in another currency to the dollar?.

Santa Cruz

Franticfrank wrote: »

You make a valid point but at least they left in the end and gave the country back to the Iraqis. Don't expect to see the Russians withdrawing from the Crimea anytime in the future.

Why should they? Crimea is Russian and the people resident in Crimea want to be under Russian rule.

darkpagandeath

fran17 wrote: »

but Ukraine is not in nato right?

Countries around it are and one of the reasons the Ukraine gave up its Nuclear weapons, was guaranteed protection.

Jonny7

wes wrote: »

The fact that none of the perpetrators were not put on trial, being one major example. No one put on trial for torture etc. Yes, Obama was against the Iraq war, but the fact that he didn't do anything about those behind it and torture etc, doesn't speak well to his Administration and there handling of there own nations wrong doing. The fact nothing was done, show that that they clearly didn't see it as being all that wrong. If your not willing to clean up your own house, people won't take you serious when you complain about someone else house.

Has Putin prosecuted any of his politicians or soldiers for torture and crimes during Chechnya? what about Sarcowzy/Hollande during any of it's escapades in Ivory coast, Mali or CAR? India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Venezuela and Columbia, the list is endless, and that's just from the last decade or two

It's a bit strange that Obama gets singled out for not prosecuting the administration before him.. in a perfect world perhaps, but on a realistic international level, that's opening up a real pandora's box

Rhys Essien

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why should they? Crimea is Russian and the people resident in Crimea want to be under Russian rule.

Before the 'vote' a few weeks ago,around 60% of Crimeans were Russian speaking/Russian extraction.When the result of the 'vote' was announced 93% of Crimeans wanted to join with Russia.

Im no mathematician but what does that tell you.:D

fran17

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Countries around it are and one of the reasons the Ukraine gave up its Nuclear weapons, was guaranteed protection.

ah well you see that bird just doesn't fly,you either have a rule book or you don't.who guaranteed this and under what international agreement or law is it valid?

darkpagandeath

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Before the 'vote' a few weeks ago,around 60% of Crimeans were Russian speaking/Russian extraction.When the result of the 'vote' was announced 93% of Crimeans wanted to join with Russia.

Im no mathematician but what does that tell you.:D

There were alot of ahem not troops on the ground.

fran17 wrote: »

ah well you see that bird just doesn't fly,you either have a rule book or you don't.who guaranteed this and under what international agreement or law is it valid?

US UK Russia signed the agreement.

Karl Stein

Why are the Russians doing this?

Think of it this way. The Soviets 'win' the Cold War. The US economy is in severe decline. The Soviets have mutual security pacts with most actors in the world including all of South America.

The Kremlin assures the Americans that if they adopt a Socialist model they will not incorporate Central American countries into their defence pact. So the US accepts and goes through economically painful restructuring.

Meanwhile the the Kremlin begins to incorporate central American countries into its defence pact. One by one they move into the Soviet sphere of influence until they reach Mexico. The Soviets have economic advisers in Mexico and funnel resources and cash in an attempt to incorporate it into its sphere of influence.

Now think how the Americans would feel about the Red Menace reaching its southern border. The Americans are aware that the ultimate goal of Moscow and its allies is to balkanize America so that it will be easier to control.

The Americans would go ape-****.

fran17

US UK Russia signed the agreement.[/QUOTE]

that's that mickey mouse agreement signed in Geneva recently?
Ukraine is the latest in a long list of countries caught in the Russia/us chess match.putin has his operatives on the ground just as Obama,sorry Obama is lacking a spine,just as brennan has his cia operatives on the ground sturring the pot as well

darkpagandeath

fran17 wrote: »

that's that mickey mouse agreement signed in Geneva recently?
Ukraine is the latest in a long list of countries caught in the Russia/us chess match.putin has his operatives on the ground just as Obama,sorry Obama is lacking a spine,just as brennan has his cia operatives on the ground sturring the pot as well

If 20 years ago is recent then yes

wes

Jonny7 wrote: »

Has Putin prosecuted any of his politicians or soldiers for torture and crimes during Chechnya? what about Sarcowzy/Hollande during any of it's escapades in Ivory coast, Mali or CAR? India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Venezuela and Columbia, the list is endless, and that's just from the last decade or two

It's a bit strange that Obama gets singled out for not prosecuting the administration before him.. in a perfect world perhaps, but on a realistic international level, that's opening up a real pandora's box

Putin was directly responsible for Chechnya himself, so he is hardly going to prosecute themselves.

As for Obama being singled out, well when you decide to play the world police man, its only fair people point out the fact that he hasn't cleaned his own house. The point still remain vis a vi Iraq, the stain of that war still remains as Obama didn't bother to clean house so to speak.

With the exception of the French none of the other countries play at being the world police man, and also btw Pakistan is actually putting Musharaf on trial, so some of them do put dodgy former leaders on trial.

S.R.

wes wrote: »

Putin was directly responsible for Chechnya himself

Why do you think so?

Handsandtools

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Putin is a mad man. He needs to be kept in his box. Sanctions and diplomacy are the only way of doing that without escalating things further.

Problem is, it is Putin's back-yard. As much as US/EU would like to help Ukraine protect itself, Putin cares very little for bloodshed or loss of life there if he can get the bragging rights he want.

I'll disagree with You as we see in Syria, where EU and US supported killers who now are part of ISIL and supply them with weapons, Russian president atchive much more, but Obama got slap in the face and that's why US and EU decided to go to Ukraine because they know the long history of Ukraine and Russia relationship, Russia's huge interest in Ukraine manufacturing industry etc.
Imagine for a moment what will happens if these ISIL terrorists got all Siria and part of Irak, do You think people there live more happy than? EU don't care people in Libia, Irak or Syria, as Obama always talks only about interest of American people, he never says interests of other country's, but just his own.
What do You think EU going to do with poor country like Ukraine? I think, because dealing with China and other Brick country's become more powerful, west are looking for new places where to get cheep workers and cheep logistics. Look at the Romania and baltic states, did You know how bad people are living, they don't have same human rights as here, but they are part of EU and euro zone, why no one talks about human right issues in Europe and US it self???
I don't protect Russia's violence, but I believe that 10000 people can't decided future of 40 million people. The government in Ukraine is unconstitutional, because previous president didn't left the post. It have to be done by the books.

Handsandtools

S.R. wrote: »

Why do you think so?

Did You know that Chechnya where full of Islam radicals, did you know history of this small nation?
When Obama kills People in Pakistan we call them terrorists, but when Russia fights them than they are just a humans???
Double standards here?...

Son Of A Vidic

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hmmmm lets Google the word NATO...

Long after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, it always amazes me why we still have or even need NATO.

S.R.

Handsandtools wrote: »

Did You know that Chechnya where full of Islam radicals, did you know history of this small nation?
When Obama kills People in Pakistan we call them terrorists, but when Russia fights them than they are just a humans???
Double standards here?...

Ha ha, completely agree.

S.R.

Handsandtools, looks like you got something wrong.

Handsandtools

S.R. wrote: »

Handsandtools, looks like you got something wrong.

You mean???

S.R.

Handsandtools wrote: »

Did You know that Chechnya where full of Islam radicals, did you know history of this small nation?
When Obama kills People in Pakistan we call them terrorists, but when Russia fights them than they are just a humans???
Double standards here?...

Mean why did u ask me these questions?

Handsandtools

S.R. wrote: »

Mean why did u ask me these questions?

What You mean I got wrong?
To understand politics You need to understand history and than you can find each nations weakest point and use them to manipulate it.

Zebra3

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Long after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, it always amazes me why we still have or even need NATO.

US military industrial complex.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

wes

S.R. wrote: »

Why do you think so?

I don't think so, I know so, Putin was in charge during the 2nd Chechen war.....

DrGreenthumb

These sanctions are just hurting the average people,
just heard on the news that the EU will be subsidising 125mil to EU famers/producers for losses due to sanctions,
but they sold 2bil worth of produce last year so there losing out big time, why cause of all these politics,
when the usa was throwing their weight around the middle east no one sanctioned them
but when russia starts to make a play bam,

there are two things i'd like to see in my life time that will probably never happen,
and thats america to get whats comming to them,
and for religion to be abolished (war on terror ha ha the real terror is religion who cares what invisible force in the sky you pray to doesn't mean you have to kill each other)

Grayson

wes wrote: »

The fact that none of the perpetrators were not put on trial, being one major example. No one put on trial for torture etc. Yes, Obama was against the Iraq war, but the fact that he didn't do anything about those behind it and torture etc, doesn't speak well to his Administration and there handling of there own nations wrong doing. The fact nothing was done, show that that they clearly didn't see it as being all that wrong. If your not willing to clean up your own house, people won't take you serious when you complain about someone else house.

None of them broke the law in the US. Torture and the invasion were allowed by the attorney general. There's very little Obama can do. I think the reason he doesn't tear them apart politically is because he still needs republican support and it's best not to rub in past mistakes too much.

wes wrote: »

Regardless of Iraq, I still believe hypocrisy aside the US are right to sanction Russia.

hell yeah. It doesn't matter what the US did 10, 20 or 100 years ago. What matters is whether what Russia is doing is right or wrong and will the sanctions make a difference. I think they will. I think this may escalate further but in the long term the sanctions are going to hurt and will eventually cause Russia to back down.

for what it matters, if the US invades and occupies another country (Again) i will be just as pissed off with them