Development

There was a piece in the paper yesterday, saying that Donegal had the lowest average income in the state, you get the usual response of unbalanced development by the government followed by called for investment by the government, however how much can the state do about this very little I think, you could build a motorway from Donegal to everywhere in Ireland and a state of the art international airport and you would still get much more development in urban areas and thus a concentration of wealth in urban areas its the same every where in the world, the whole issue is just a soap box for local politics and it something the state can do very little about.

The state can have a small effect on rural development but that all it is a very complex problem to solve.

mistermouse

There is no doubt that Donegal has been marginalised, particularly during the troubles and left behind. The Government reneged on an agreement to part fund a road through Northern Ireland that would have helped quite a lot.

Donegal has some of the best scenery and tourism potential in Europe, in the past the railway was done away with and the county was not marketed at all compared to the South West for example. It is actually closer to Dublin than most of Kerry, but due to public perceptions and the lack of a complete good road, this is not been capitalised on.

Added to all that, now since the peace process there is alot of money pumped into neighbouring Northern counties and Donegal struggles to compete even at business levels.

Its easy to be cynical in Donegal, but it is a friendly and welcoming stunning county, but in the main the rest of the Republic either do not know or in the most part care.

There are a few quality IT companies which do not need to be in a city but they do need/should have transport links for executives travelling etc.

The tourism potential is huge which the government could do quite a lot for. In the past the Shannon region and south west in general got plenty of government assistance/attention so its not that it cannot be done.

At present Donegal is becoming a dumping ground for Wind Turbines spoiling the biggest asset it has - scenery - these type of policies are not being tolerated to the same degree elsewhere.

Donegal's only hope is that it will get some sort of lift from a Northern Ireland growth, however, NI businesses have much greater access to funding

chopper6

mistermouse wrote: »

There is no doubt that Donegal has been marginalised, particularly during the troubles and left behind. The Government reneged on an agreement to part fund a road through Northern Ireland that would have helped quite a lot.

Donegal has some of the best scenery and tourism potential in Europe, in the past the railway was done away with and the county was not marketed at all compared to the South West for example. It is actually closer to Dublin than most of Kerry, but due to public perceptions and the lack of a complete good road, this is not been capitalised on.

Added to all that, now since the peace process there is alot of money pumped into neighbouring Northern counties and Donegal struggles to compete even at business levels.

Its easy to be cynical in Donegal, but it is a friendly and welcoming stunning county, but in the main the rest of the Republic either do not know or in the most part care.

There are a few quality IT companies which do not need to be in a city but they do need/should have transport links for executives travelling etc.

The tourism potential is huge which the government could do quite a lot for. In the past the Shannon region and south west in general got plenty of government assistance/attention so its not that it cannot be done.

At present Donegal is becoming a dumping ground for Wind Turbines spoiling the biggest asset it has - scenery - these type of policies are not being tolerated to the same degree elsewhere.

Donegal's only hope is that it will get some sort of lift from a Northern Ireland growth, however, NI businesses have much greater access to funding

I agree with the tourism bit.

A lot of tourists have never heard of Donegal and as such dont visit it in any great numbers.

The right marketing campaign plus a bit of investment in roadways and amenities could see it soar in popularity as a tourist destination.

Remember,all tourists are the same...they love to go to places "before they become popular" and by doing so they become more and more popular...it just needs the right campaign to get them to visit.

murphaph

There are Donegals all over the world. They are the peripheral locations that every country has that are never going to be economically particularly bright. Western Denmark (a wealthy country and similar in size and population to Ireland) is quite poor and jobs are few and far between. The people there just accept their peripheral location and don't expect jobs to be brought to them.

Donegal has tourist potential, but it's being ruined more by the poor planning and bungalow blitz than wind farms! Tourists visit places like Donegal to find rugged wilderness, not suburbia.

MayoSalmon

Donegal has been long forgotten about by the government and previous governments.

Shameful that this continues to this day.

Godge

chopper6 wrote: »

I agree with the tourism bit.

A lot of tourists have never heard of Donegal and as such dont visit it in any great numbers.

The right marketing campaign plus a bit of investment in roadways and amenities could see it soar in popularity as a tourist destination.

Remember,all tourists are the same...they love to go to places "before they become popular" and by doing so they become more and more popular...it just needs the right campaign to get them to visit.

Dream on, take a climate similar to Donegal, say North Antrim, whoops, no Giant's Causeway or Glens or distilleries. Of course if you want to visit distilleries, go to Scotland.

Donegal in winter is probably like Iceland in summer, but Iceland has volcanoes.

Not to mention Canada as an alternative or New Zealand.

Even Kerry has tradition that Donegal doesn't have.

Irish people have been dreaming of the tourism bonanza for years, mostly while they have been sunning themselves on warm foreign beaches.

chopper6

There may be a fundamental problem though...although i've never been,i've heard the weather is usually pretty terrible.

MayoSalmon

Godge wrote: »

Dream on, take a climate similar to Donegal, say North Antrim, whoops, no Giant's Causeway or Glens or distilleries. Of course if you want to visit distilleries, go to Scotland.

Donegal in winter is probably like Iceland in summer, but Iceland has volcanoes.

Not to mention Canada as an alternative or New Zealand.

Even Kerry has tradition that Donegal doesn't have.

Irish people have been dreaming of the tourism bonanza for years, mostly while they have been sunning themselves on warm foreign beaches.

Your ignorance hurts.

Donegal has some fantastic tourist destinations. Glenveagh national park is one of the best in Ireland, blue flag beaches are as good as any in Ireland.

Inishowen is breathtaking on a long summer nights. Also it has some of the best surfing and watersport spots in Bundoran etc.

Also fantastic culture in the Gaeltacht etc. Donegal is a fantastic county better than most in Ireland if you ask me.

Sand

mariaalice wrote: »

The state can have a small effect on rural development but that all it is a very complex problem to solve.

Is it even a problem? Surely living in a rural area, it is by its very nature not developed or heavy populated relative to a city. There is less employees, there is less customers, and transport is harder so there is less business. On the other hand, property is relatively cheap, quality of life is high (it isn't really to my experience), and violent crime at least is relatively low. Plus Donegal has some wonderful scenery. Swings and roundabouts.

The government cant solve people living in a rural area. Since the agricultural revolution, people have been leaving rural areas and going to the cities. No government is likely to change that, and there's no reason they ought to.

@mistermouse

Its easy to be cynical in Donegal, but it is a friendly and welcoming stunning county, but in the main the rest of the Republic either do not know or in the most part care.

Do the people in Donegal know much about, or care much about, the rest of the Republic or the problems other people have? Probably not, so I don't understand the accusing tone.

If you want to live in an urban area, there are benefits and costs. If you want to live in a rural area, there are benefits and costs. That's just life.

MayoSalmon

Sand wrote: »

If you want to live in an urban area, there are benefits and costs. If you want to live in a rural area, there are benefits and costs. That's just life.

Yes but I would hardly consider Letterkenny, Lifford, Donegal Town etc as rural areas.

Why the severe lack of investment?

road_high

Visited donegal last summer have to say I was a little dissapointed. Maybe it was the weather but I wasn't blown away. Seems underdeveloped, thought there was a lack of nice places to eat, not much to do bar the scenary.
Kerry leaves it standing as regards a tourism "product".

Sand

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Yes but I would hardly consider Letterkenny, Lifford, Donegal Town etc as rural areas.

Why the severe lack of investment?

Lifford and Donegal don't have even 5,000 inhabitants combined.

Letterkenny is about as big as Celbridge in County Kildare which is effectively part of the extended Dublin suburbs: people live there, but work in Dublin. If Celbridge isn't a thriving hub of industry able to provide jobs for all the locals in Celbridge itself then why would Letterkenny be much different?

The investment in those area reflects the lack of people living there. Celbridge at least benefits from being closer to Dublin so can hook on to the Dublin bus services, motorways and relatively nearby major amenities and services which it wouldn't be able to justify by itself alone. You need critical mass for investment to pay off and rural areas, in general, don't have it.

chopper6

road_high wrote: »

Visited donegal last summer have to say I was a little dissapointed. Maybe it was the weather but I wasn't blown away. Seems underdeveloped, thought there was a lack of nice places to eat, not much to do bar the scenary.
Kerry leaves it standing as regards a tourism "product".

As i said the weather plays a huge part.

I was in Dingle several weeks back and it was sunny and bright,there were lots of vibrant pubs and restaurants should the weather turn nasty and a sense that we were welcome and that the culture was welcoming.

Donegal,IMO has the opposite reputation...one writer desrcribed it as being "dour and bishop-infested".

If it could be marketed correctly i'm sure it would have potential but the prevailing attitude seems to be that it's not the most uplifting place,and it's proximity to "the north" really doesnt help matters.

MayoSalmon

Sand wrote: »

Lifford and Donegal don't have even 5,000 inhabitants combined.

Letterkenny is about as big as Celbridge in County Kildare which is effectively part of the extended Dublin suburbs: people live there, but work in Dublin. If Celbridge isn't a thriving hub of industry able to provide jobs for all the locals in Celbridge itself then why would Letterkenny be much different?

The investment in those area reflects the lack of people living there. Celbridge at least benefits from being closer to Dublin so can hook on to the Dublin bus services, motorways and relatively nearby major amenities and services which it wouldn't be able to justify by itself alone. You need critical mass for investment to pay off and rural areas, in general, don't have it.

Have you ever wondered why people don't live there??

No investment of course. People wouldn't live in Dublin either if there was no jobs or infastructure!

Sand

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why people don't live there??

No investment of course. People wouldn't live in Dublin either if there was no jobs or infastructure!

People do live in rural areas. 1.7 million. It's a minority but its still a sizeable number of people.

Rural areas and infrastructure are pretty much incompatible - Dublin is considered very hard to provide infrastructure for because its sprawled out the way it is. And that's with very high population density.

There is a downside to living in rural areas - its the relative lack of infrastructure. That's not a problem, its just the end result of rural areas having very low population density so being very hard to provide infrastructure for at any reasonable cost.

comongethappy

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why people don't live there??

No investment of course. People wouldn't live in Dublin either if there was no jobs or infastructure!

Tell us then, what money would you spend on infrastructure on a county with a population density half the national average?

Donegal is one of the most populated counties, yet one of the least densely populated.

While it's citizens choose to live so spread apart, investment becomes exponentially more expensive & returns diminished.

The bungalow blitz has a lot to be blamed for.

Godge

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Your ignorance hurts.

Donegal has some fantastic tourist destinations. Glenveagh national park is one of the best in Ireland, blue flag beaches are as good as any in Ireland.

Inishowen is breathtaking on a long summer nights. Also it has some of the best surfing and watersport spots in Bundoran etc.

Also fantastic culture in the Gaeltacht etc. Donegal is a fantastic county better than most in Ireland if you ask me.

Tourism gains to GDP and economic growth require incoming tourists from abroad.

You can talk all you like about those things but 5 minutes in London, Paris or Rome will show you what a proper tourism industry is like let alone going to Spain or Greece.

Tourism was not able to prevent rural Spain from falling into recession and 26% unemployment, it certainly won't save Donegal.

murphaph

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why people don't live there??

No investment of course. People wouldn't live in Dublin either if there was no jobs or infastructure!

Dublin "thrives" in spite of its infrastructure, not because of it. Dublin has, for a city of its size and importance to the national economy, very poor infrastructure when compared to similarly sized cities, even in nominally poorer countries like Portugal or Greece.

Dublin, despite what you may want to believe, has been systematically starved of infrastructure so that more of the slush fund can be spread (really thinly and often uselessly) in places like Donegal.

The CSO figures on social transfers show this.

The trend for most of humanity since almost the beginning has been towards urbanisation. Ireland tries to retard this process (Decentralisation, failed. Shannon stopover: failed, Western Rail Corridor: failed etc. etc.) but in spite of this Dublin continues to grow, as do cities all around the world!!!

micraX

Good spud ground in Donegal, pity largo foods closed the tayto factory.

MayoSalmon

murphaph wrote: »

Dublin "thrives" in spite of its infrastructure, not because of it. Dublin has, for a city of its size and importance to the national economy, very poor infrastructure when compared to similarly sized cities, even in nominally poorer countries like Portugal or Greece.

Dublin, despite what you may want to believe, has been systematically starved of infrastructure so that more of the slush fund can be spread (really thinly and often uselessly) in places like Donegal.

The CSO figures on social transfers show this.

The trend for most of humanity since almost the beginning has been towards urbanisation. Ireland tries to retard this process (Decentralisation, failed. Shannon stopover: failed, Western Rail Corridor: failed etc. etc.) but in spite of this Dublin continues to grow, as do cities all around the world!!!

40% of the countrys population live within 100km of Dublin...that is why it trives.

comongethappy

MayoSalmon wrote: »

40% of the countrys population live within 100km of Dublin...that is why it trives.

And why not?

Dublin's citizens receive far less government investment than those of less dense populations (as mentioned before).

Co Donegal has the 6th highest population in Ireland....20 counties have fewer.
Surely that's enough to support its own economy better?

Again, what monies should be spent on a county so opposed to urbanisation when returns are better elsewhere?

MayoSalmon

comongethappy wrote: »

And why not?

Dublin's citizens receive far less government investment than those of less dense populations (as mentioned before).

Co Donegal has the 6th highest population in Ireland....20 counties have fewer.
Surely that's enough to support its own economy better?

Again, what monies should be spent on a county so opposed to urbanisation when returns are better elsewhere?

Where does this theory come from?

Every new job in this country is basically situtated in Dublin..that is de facto government assistance. Not sure how on earth you think Donegal recieves more assistance than anybody in Dublin.

Blowfish

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Where does this theory come from?

Every new job in this country is basically situtated in Dublin..that is de facto government assistance. Not sure how on earth you think Donegal recieves more assistance than anybody in Dublin.

By looking at the raw statistics. Donegal receives the highest transfers per person in the country, largely funded by Dublin.

MayoSalmon

Blowfish wrote: »

By looking at the raw statistics. Donegal receives the highest transfers per person in the country, largely funded by Dublin.

This is not really what I am refering to and to be honest I am more interested in the cause of those statistics. Fact of the matter is they are a direct result of how Donegal and much of the Northwest of Ireland has been marginalized since the foundation of the state.

This is not a phenomenon restricted to Ireland though, its happened all over the world in many countries.

murphaph

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Where does this theory come from?

Every new job in this country is basically situtated in Dublin..that is de facto government assistance. Not sure how on earth you think Donegal recieves more assistance than anybody in Dublin.

Because it's a fact. Donegal is a net recipient of social transfers and Dublin and most of Leinster plus Cork are net contributors.

Companies set up in Dublin because there's a pool of qualified labour because the people have chosen to live close together in the city.

murphaph

MayoSalmon wrote: »

This is not really what I am refering to and to be honest I am more interested in the cause of those statistics. Fact of the matter is they are a direct result of how Donegal and much of the Northwest of Ireland has been marginalized since the foundation of the state.

This is not a phenomenon restricted to Ireland though, its happened all over the world in many countries.

Marginalised by receiving the highest level of social transfers per capita of any county? Just how much more do you want from the rest of us?

Godge

MayoSalmon wrote: »

This is not really what I am refering to and to be honest I am more interested in the cause of those statistics. Fact of the matter is they are a direct result of how Donegal and much of the Northwest of Ireland has been marginalized since the foundation of the state.

This is not a phenomenon restricted to Ireland though, its happened all over the world in many countries.

There are quality of life benefits from a rural life - clean air, countryside, relaxed atmosphere

There are quality of life benefits from a city life - access to infrastructure such as schools, hospitals, public transport, high-speed broadband, motorways, universities, jobs etc.

You pay your money and you take your choice.

The problem is that rural Irish people expect all of the infrastructural and employment benefits from living in a city without being prepared to live in a city. That is unsustainable.

The same is true to a lesser extent with city Irish people who expect a half acre of land with their five-bed detached house.

Irish people don't seem to get it that you can't have everything.

comongethappy

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Fact of the matter is they are a direct result of how Donegal and much of the Northwest of Ireland has been marginalized since the foundation of the state.

I'm not sure its ever been policy to marginalise Donegal.

As described, the massive cash transfers to Donegal show successive governments have been happy to splash the cash there.

As for jobs.
Think of it.....
A director from American "Company X" is meeting with the IDA & IDA man asks: "what about Donegal?"
"Company X" looks at the demographics & sees that the largest town has just 19,000 residents, the next a tiny 7,000.

Is that enough of a talent pool or will the company locate elsewhere?

Its odd that a county not far off Co Limerick in population size has chosen to scatter itself to the 4 winds thus making development all the less likely without considerable taxpayer support.

Sleepy

Personally, I like Donegal. Some of my best friends live there and it's somewhere I tend to visit every couple of years.

The fact remains though, that it's lack of employment isn't something the government can solve. Governments don't create employment, the best they can do is create the conditions for it and, as supported by the CSO stats above, consecutive governments have done as much as they can do for Donegal, arguably more than they should have.

The IDA can't convince MNC's to locate in rural areas or towns in counties with extremely low population density. Donegal's best hope for employment is for it's own residents to create it: they're as entitled to Enterprise Ireland or Local Enterprise Board supports as any other budding entrepreneur is.

wetdarknight2

comongethappy wrote: »

Think of it.....
A director from American "Company X" is meeting with the IDA & IDA man asks: "what about Donegal?"
"Company X" looks at the demographics & sees that the largest town has just 19,000 residents, the next a tiny 7,000.

If the American company is only going to employ 100 or 200 then no problem. People can move there easily. No traffic and cheap housing. Was there not a time the IDA positively discriminated towards disadvantaged areas, and located industries there? Now all the new jobs seem to go to Dublin. Maybe a compromise would work well, if new industries were located near places like Waterford, Galway, Limerick, Athlone?

murphaph

wetdarknight2 wrote: »

If the American company is only going to employ 100 or 200 then no problem. People can move there easily. No traffic and cheap housing. Was there not a time the IDA positively discriminated towards disadvantaged areas, and located industries there? Now all the new jobs seem to go to Dublin. Maybe a compromise would work well, if new industries were located near places like Waterford, Galway, Limerick, Athlone?

We're trying to attract skilled jobs, not assembly line work that anyone can do. Of those 5000 will the company find 200 software engineers or whatever? Doubtful. You cannot force companies to locate where the talent pool is too small. The people have to move or set up their own businesses.