Primary teachers reject higher maths requirement

TheDriver

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0422/610160-primary-school-teachers-into/

I didn't realise teachers wanted much of a say in college requirements and I thought it would be a good thing to insist that all primary teachers had higher eng, irish and maths seeing that they are teaching all kids the core subjects.
I remember my primary education, the teachers were good at maths but crap at English and hence this followed be after primary school. The leaving cert course has gotten so much more accessible anyways that most are doing it anyways.

What are peoples views? Is it fair to say we should insist on honours irish but not honours maths? Are the existing teachers afraid that all the new teachers will be better prepared in maths?

Moody_mona

As a Maths teacher, I should probably want primary teachers to have HL Maths, but I really don't think it's necessary. I don't think you can compare it to Irish; a teacher should be able to fluently speak and immerse their class in Irish. I don't see how HL Maths would help the Maths classroom. I presume there's a minimum Ordinary level requirement?

Mr Pseudonym

Moody_mona wrote: »

As a Maths teacher, I should probably want primary teachers to have HL Maths, but I really don't think it's necessary. I don't think you can compare it to Irish; a teacher should be able to fluently speak and immerse their class in Irish. I don't see how HL Maths would help the Maths classroom. I presume there's a minimum Ordinary level requirement?

Actually, now that I think about it, I agree: there is little need for a primary teacher to have Higher Maths. Having said that, though, primary teachers should be very comfortable with arithmetic, and one with an honours at Higher is a good deal more likely to be.

evolving_doors

I remember at a project maths inservice the facilitator said that O LEVEL maths was actually a high standard compared to international standards. Well it used to be anyhow!

In my mind RQ keeps banging on about maths to the detriment of other subjects. We need to consider the holistic nature of education. Would it be so incongruous to suggest that primary teachers should have honours History for critical inquiry and evidence based research. Or maybe honours art..etc..

The last thing this country needs is everybody being forced into maths. Whats wrong with a student/teacher who excells in the arts. Are we always going to be at the beck and call of the almighty industry/stem brigade.

Yet another smokescreen by RQ. Say something idiotic that arouses anger in teachers then hope for the backlash of ' teachers behaving like children at conferences'.

Mr Pseudonym

Armelodie wrote: »

I remember at a project maths inservice the facilitator said that O LEVEL maths was actually a high standard compared to international standards. Well it used to be anyhow!

In my mind RQ keeps banging on about maths to the detriment of other subjects. We need to consider the holistic nature of education. Would it be so incongruous to suggest that primary teachers should have honours History for critical inquiry and evidence based research. Or maybe honours art..etc..

One cannot teach Irish without having studied it to a relatively high level, and the same is true of maths, whereas it's not of other subjects.

A poor primary mathematics education will have a detrimental effect on a student's subsequent education, in a way that won't happen with almost any other subject.

Mr Pseudonym

As I said above, I don't think that an honours at Higher should be necessary. But, at present, a D at Ordinary Level is sufficient - which is too low.

Edit: it has not been stipulated whether an "honours" will be the requirement - it may be merely a Pass.

fiachr_a

Armelodie wrote: »

The last thing this country needs is everybody being forced into maths. Whats wrong with a student/teacher who excells in the arts. Are we always going to be at the beck and call of the almighty industry/stem brigade.

Yes we are. No multinational company will set up here due to the quality of our arts graduates. Maths is the most important subject in school for these technical jobs. We need teachers with high maths skills who understand this subject well and can pass this onto kids.

byhookorbycrook

fiachr_a wrote: »

Yes we are. No multinational company will set up here due to the quality of our arts graduates. Maths is the most important subject in school for these technical jobs. We need teachers with high maths skills who understand this subject well and can pass this onto kids.

Actually IT skills would be more beneficial.

Outkast_IRE

I think there are plenty who have passed Honours maths and don't actually understand the maths in reality. They know it by rote etc.

I think a better requirement would be to have a maths module designed for those hoping to teach at primary and have them meet a required standard in that.

byhookorbycrook

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think there are plenty who have passed Honours maths and don't actually understand the maths in reality. They know it by rote etc.

I think a better requirement would be to have a maths module designed for those hoping to teach at primary and have them meet a required standard in that.

We did that in Mary I in the 80s, don't know if it still exists!

Christy42

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Actually IT skills would be more beneficial.

Both are generally required. Some basics about basic computer use would be useful at a primary level.

Higher level maths or some sort of graduate module should be required for primary school teachers. I feel that this should be required in all subjects but obviously this is demanding too much at the leaving cert level so graduate courses can help take up the slack. These should all be thought to an honours leaving cert level at a minimum.

Greendiamond

Of course honours maths should be a minimum I can't believe there is such an uproar over it. My daughters teacher got a C in pass maths and it shows !! She often makes mistakes in class and we have to correct things at home. A C in pass maths is not someone confident with the subject and its not acceptable for teaching such a core subject.

Off topic but the entry levels for teaching should be much higher and we should pay them well. They should be among the best paid professionals. Teaching has such a profound effect on society that teaching should attract the very best graduates.

Pwpane

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think there are plenty who have passed Honours maths and don't actually understand the maths in reality. They know it by rote etc.

By rote??

Did you ever do hons maths yourself??

Outkast_IRE

Pwpane wrote: »

By rote??

Did you ever do hons maths yourself??

Yes up until 6th year, was unfortunate enough to have a teacher who wasn't great at teaching the subject, so basically was just teaching everyone methods for doing questions, if anything different came up in papers he was quite often stumped for a while.

Luckily enough have had excellent lecturers in college whose goal is make you understand the material and what its used for etc. lecturers who actually enjoyed teaching it, and could tackle any question thrown at them.

Pwpane

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Yes up until 6th year, was unfortunate enough to have a teacher who wasn't great at teaching the subject, so basically was just teaching everyone methods for doing questions, if anything different came up in papers he was quite often stumped for a while.

Luckily enough have had excellent lecturers in college whose goal is make you understand the material and what its used for etc. lecturers who actually enjoyed teaching it, and could tackle any question thrown at them.

So you agree that both teaching by rote and learning by rote doesn't hack it.

This is exactly where I'm coming from. At best you should have teachers who enjoy their material and can handle any question thrown at them. This is a lot more likely if the teacher's own standard is high - if they didn't understand it they are less likely to have chosen to do the subject at higher level and less likely to achieve an hons level in it.

A child should have the best possible intro to such an influential area as mathematics and not be turned off at an early age, thinking they can't do or understand something just because the teacher can't come up with alternative and interesting ways to explain it.

evolving_doors

fiachr_a wrote: »

Yes we are. No multinational company will set up here due to the quality of our arts graduates. Maths is the most important subject in school for these technical jobs. We need teachers with high maths skills who understand this subject well and can pass this onto kids.

And what about the important subjects for non technical jobs? I think were trying to put square pegs in round holes and doing a diservice to kids who's talents lie outside the maths field. I'm not saying that maths and critical thinking aren't important but the obsession by RQ is really putting a lot if students in a lesser space.
Multinationals have no problems getting maths graduates in any country, they just want schools and universities to train their workforce for them. They are in Ireland for the tax breaks and english language. Are we still tugging the forelock to our foreign masters.

As I said, just reduce the class sizes and leave the primary teachers do their jobs. This maths thing is just a distraction.

purplecow1977

TheDriver wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0422/610160-primary-school-teachers-into/

I didn't realise teachers wanted much of a say in college requirements and I thought it would be a good thing to insist that all primary teachers had higher eng, irish and maths seeing that they are teaching all kids the core subjects.
I remember my primary education, the teachers were good at maths but crap at English and hence this followed be after primary school. The leaving cert course has gotten so much more accessible anyways that most are doing it anyways.

What are peoples views? Is it fair to say we should insist on honours irish but not honours maths? Are the existing teachers afraid that all the new teachers will be better prepared in maths?

What?! Why is HL Maths necessary? Is HL English a requirement? Why do I need HL LC Maths in order to adequately [and above] teach the core subjects in primary school? S.E.S.E. subjects are also taught but they're not a requirement - why not? Is there research to prove that better teachers have higher qualifications in Maths? Are existing teachers afraid? Em, no, definitely not. Some of the most clever people in the world can still be sh!te teachers (had one in secondary school, and another in college). 1 for Maths actually. Genius of a man, but could he teach? Hell no.

Christy42

purplecow1977 wrote: »

What?! Why is HL Maths necessary? Is HL English a requirement? Why do I need HL LC Maths in order to adequately [and above] teach the core subjects in primary school? S.E.S.E. subjects are also taught but they're not a requirement - why not? Is there research to prove that better teachers have higher qualifications in Maths? Are existing teachers afraid? Em, no, definitely not. Some of the most clever people in the world can still be sh!te teachers (had one in secondary school, and another in college). 1 for Maths actually. Genius of a man, but could he teach? Hell no.

I'm kinda curious as to where in this thread anyone said that honours maths implies you can teach? The point is that we want the people who can teach to also have a decent knowledge and understanding of the subjects they teach. Yes many pass students have the necessary level of understanding but that doesn't imply every pass student does so the requirements should be upped to ensure all teachers have it.

purplecow1977

Christy42 wrote: »

I'm kinda curious as to where in this thread anyone said that honours maths implies you can teach? The point is that we want the people who can teach to also have a decent knowledge and understanding of the subjects they teach. Yes many pass students have the necessary level of understanding but that doesn't imply every pass student does so the requirements should be upped to ensure all teachers have it.

I am sorry,maybe its just late or because Im on my phone but that comment smacks of contradiction! Maybe I will understand in the morning!

Christy42

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I am sorry,maybe its just late or because Im on my phone but that comment smacks of contradiction! Maybe I will understand in the morning!

Your example was of a smart person who could not teach. While many such people exist it is not relevant. We want people who are smart and can also teach. Higher level maths will be a requirement for teaching but not all that is required (I hope at least).

Second bit was pointing out that I feel the current standards are insufficient as there are many pass students who I would not feel comfortable with them teaching basic math.

I also pointed out that not all pass students are that poor at maths but have other reasons for picking it (not needed for points I reckon is a common one, it is why I dropped in Irish). However I would prefer someone capable of being a teacher is refused a place as opposed to an unsuitable teacher be put in front of a class. If this type of student wants to become a primary school teacher badly enough they will manage honours anyway.

doc_17

I'd be in favour of a minimum standard for entry, maybe an OL B. But I can understand both sides of the debate.

mickdw

My opinion is that a poor grade on a pass paper is certainly not good enough. A C on pass paper shows that someone has poor ability and little interest imo.
Having higher maths myself, I feel it would be beneficial for primary teachers to be at that level if only to show an interest in the subject.
I know a couple of teachers who are bluffing their way through the maths program, checking answers in the books and then working out how to do the question. Given that its all simple stuff, that is a disgrace.

purplecow1977

Greendiamond wrote: »

Of course honours maths should be a minimum I can't believe there is such an uproar over it. My daughters teacher got a C in pass maths and it shows !! She often makes mistakes in class and we have to correct things at home. A C in pass maths is not someone confident with the subject and its not acceptable for teaching such a core subject.

Off topic but the entry levels for teaching should be much higher and we should pay them well. They should be among the best paid professionals. Teaching has such a profound effect on society that teaching should attract the very best graduates.

That's meant to be the tagline alright.
Apparently it does attract some of the best.
It is one of the 'higher pointed' college courses.
Do we really want to set it at a standard like medicine with 580+ points?
I think our teachers, for the most part, are pretty clever.
I heard of other suggestions like a Masters being a pre-requisite, what would people think of that? My friend in New York says they have to have a Masters - maybe if a 5 year timeframe was given to achieve it from your first teaching appointment?

I really don't think HL Maths is a necessity. Nor do I think having HL Maths allows to you have a more indepth knowledge of the teaching of Mathematics.

purplecow1977

mickdw wrote: »

My opinion is that a poor grade on a pass paper is certainly not good enough. A C on pass paper shows that someone has poor ability and little interest imo.
Having higher maths myself, I feel it would be beneficial for primary teachers to be at that level if only to show an interest in the subject.
I know a couple of teachers who are bluffing their way through the maths program, checking answers in the books and then working out how to do the question. Given that its all simple stuff, that is a disgrace.

So for the sake of it basically?
Higher Level Maths is far more time consuming than other HL subjects.
Add a not so great teacher for Leaving Cert into the mix and you're at a huge disadvantage.

purplecow1977

mickdw wrote: »

My opinion is that a poor grade on a pass paper is certainly not good enough. A C on pass paper shows that someone has poor ability and little interest imo.
Having higher maths myself, I feel it would be beneficial for primary teachers to be at that level if only to show an interest in the subject.
I know a couple of teachers who are bluffing their way through the maths program, checking answers in the books and then working out how to do the question. Given that its all simple stuff, that is a disgrace.

May I ask how you are aware of this?
Nobody outside of my classroom knows what goes on in my classroom, so how do you know what goes on in someone else's?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Currently a higher level C is required in Irish. However national standards of Irish, in sixth class, range from excellent to absolutely dire. Ruairí can bring in a higher C requirement for Maths and the same situation may arise.

Teaching standards vary, a students' ability or application to work varies a lot and you obviously have socio-economic factors that will always lead to a disparity in student achievement.

Let Ruairí do it but it may make little difference as is the case with Irish. It is currently possible to get a C in honours Irish and not actually be very good at the language if you prepare some rote-learned material, and I would suggest you could practice maths questions and scrape an honours C in maths too.

Ruairí's idea may not hurt, but it might not help very much either.

mickdw

purplecow1977 wrote: »

May I ask how you are aware of this?
Nobody outside of my classroom knows what goes on in my classroom, so how do you know what goes on in someone else's?

Friends who would openly admit that they don't 'get' maths. One in particular who says that she is often stumped when a pupil comes up with a different way of solving something. She cannot immediately work out if it is valid or just a fluke situation. Very good teacher in general by all accounts though. I just think that people with more maths interest might be able to bring it into other areas and make it more interesting instead of blindly following a book.

SpaceTime

I'd like to see them properly trained up in teaching maths and making maths fun.

At primary level maths isn't particularly complicated. However, teaching it most certainly is.

My best maths teachers as a kid made it practical with real world applications.

purplecow1977

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd like to see them properly trained up in teaching maths and making maths fun.

At primary level maths isn't particularly complicated. However, teaching it most certainly is.

Is it? I don't agree. I love teaching Maths. Due to it being my favourite subject in school. We all have our fortés. As another poster commented, HL Irish is currently required and yet children in 6th class can't hold a simple conversation after learning it for 8 years! Now there's a problem! That should be enough to prove that HL requirements don't equal success.

SpaceTime

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Is it? I don't agree. I love teaching Maths. Due to it being my favourite subject in school. We all have our fortés. As another poster commented, HL Irish is currently required and yet children in 6th class can't hold a simple conversation after learning it for 8 years! Now there's a problem! That should be enough to prove that HL requirements don't equal success.

I'm not saying that HL maths is necessary. I think a more in depth and primary teaching appropriate maths programme for teachers would be more useful.

A lot of it could be done by providing teachers with sample lesson plans and ideas for teaching that they could use in their classes. Like a monthly newsletter with maybe a video tutorial on a particular mathematical concept and some suggested ways of teaching it.

I don't think teachers really get enough of those kinds of supports and on going learning opportunities.

...

There is an over emphasis on Irish and religion teaching for historical reasons. Again, I think the Irish syllabus needs to be more about making the language classes fun and practical. We're still stuck with a politically driven and unrealistic notion that it's supposed to be our first language. That just leads to over ambitious syllabus and people coming out of school unable to string a sentence together.

purplecow1977

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm not saying that HL maths is necessary. I think a more in depth and primary teaching appropriate maths programme for teachers would be more useful.

A lot of it could be done by providing teachers with sample lesson plans and ideas for teaching that they could use in their classes. Like a monthly newsletter with maybe a video tutorial on a particular mathematical concept and some suggested ways of teaching it.

I don't think teachers really get enough of those kinds of supports and on going learning opportunities.

Perhaps. But that could be said of various topics. I'm constantly searching for new ideas on how to teach things. Another thing that is lacking in relation to Mathematics though is the lack of resources. Try teaching weight with no scales, or bringing in your own kitchen scales to a group of 33 children!! Luckily that's a concept that they generally pick up without much difficulty but you get the idea.

Bananatop

I think that Ruairí Quinn lost the support of teachers long ago. Anything he says is always met with rebuke. He doesn't help things by making teachers do pointless hours that have very little to do with the success of a school. To me, that is a massive sign that he doesn't understand how a school is run. So I always view anything else he says with pure scepticism. I mean does he really care about teachers doing honours maths? Or is he trying to make himself popular with the general public?

It is very hard to trust a manager who makes you do pointless work to make him/her appear more efficient. I can't imagine there is one person in the country who would feel happy working for a manager like that.


Heckling him is awful though and really lets down the side. A teacher who doesn't show respect to students, or who shows favouritism, or isn't prepared going into class gets heckled too, but they get heckled by people who aren't adults. I think we should have more respect for the jobs we hold, and show this by at least listening to what the man has to say. Keep the powder dry!

SpaceTime

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Perhaps. But that could be said of various topics. I'm constantly searching for new ideas on how to teach things. Another thing that is lacking in relation to Mathematics though is the lack of resources. Try teaching weight with no scales, or bringing in your own kitchen scales to a group of 33 children!! Luckily that's a concept that they generally pick up without much difficulty but you get the idea.

Yeah, that's a major issue.
Schools here are very poor in teaching resources.

I think part of that is down to fragmentation (religion and single gender schools creating umpteen under resourced duplicated schools spreading limited resources very very thinly)
However, that's probably for a different thread.

A huge amount of money here is wasted on overheads instead of using it to employ more teachers and introduce more support services and practical resources.

Every school requires buildings and management overheads. If you have 6 schools where you need 2, that's taking a lot of money out of the system that could be much better spent.

I would actually like to see school districts being formed with a single principal and organisation for closely located clusters of primary schools. You could pool resources for libraries, sports, equipment, resource teachers, psychological support etc etc

purplecow1977

Bananatop wrote: »

I think that Ruairí Quinn lost the support of teachers long ago. Anything he says is always met with rebuke. He doesn't help things by making teachers do pointless hours that have very little to do with the success of a school. To me, that is a massive sign that he doesn't understand how a school is run. So I always view anything else he says with pure scepticism. I mean does he really care about teachers doing honours maths? Or is he trying to make himself popular with the general public?

It is very hard to trust a manager who makes you do pointless work to make him/her appear more efficient. I can't imagine there is one person in the country who would feel happy working for a manager like that.


Heckling him is awful though and really lets down the side. A teacher who doesn't show respect to students, or who shows favouritism, or isn't prepared going into class gets heckled too, but they get heckled by people who aren't adults. I think we should have more respect for the jobs we hold, and show this by at least listening to what the man has to say. Keep the powder dry!

Have you ever seen the carry on in the Dáil?! Last year I remember the heckling had been blown completely out of proportion in the media. I would be probably of a similar opinion to you though as the last thing teachers need is more negative media attention.

purplecow1977

SpaceTime wrote: »

Yeah, that's a major issue.
Schools here are very poor in teaching resources.

I think part of that is down to fragmentation (religion and single gender schools creating umpteen under resourced duplicated schools spreading limited resources very very thinly)
However, that's probably for a different thread.

A huge amount of money here is wasted on overheads instead of using it to employ more teachers and introduce more support services and practical resources.

Every school requires buildings and management overheads. If you have 6 schools where you need 2, that's taking a lot of money out of the system that could be much better spent.

Oh no, let's not go down the route of 'close smaller schools' though!!!
Overheads could be improved upon though, I agree. Our school is very segregated with about 70% made up of prefab buildings (which are only meant to be 'temporary'). The monthly rent on those things is something crazy like 1,000euro p/m! Some of our prefabs are over 12 years old - do the Maths!!

hurling_lad

Look at the points requirements for primary school teaching - around 460 last year.

It is obvious that most successful candidates are getting C's at higher level in five or six subjects. Surely one of these subjects should be maths, as is already the case with Irish, since that is one of the core subjects taught all through primary school. It would certainly be more relevant than honours history, geography, home ec., bus. org. or whatever honours' subjects in which candidates are achieving C grades.

SpaceTime

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Oh no, let's not go down the route of 'close smaller schools' though!!!
Overheads could be improved upon though, I agree. Our school is very segregated with about 70% made up of prefab buildings (which are only meant to be 'temporary'). The monthly rent on those things is something crazy like 1,000euro p/m! Some of our prefabs are over 12 years old - do the Maths!!

I think you need to look at diverting the cash into supporting smaller schools in isolated areas.

It's a total waste to have up to 10+ primary schools in a single suburb though.

I notice what happens instead is they shut the small rural schools (actually desperately needed) yet won't look at merging schools in urban areas.

We are very bad at allocating limited resources here in Ireland in health & education in particular.

Bananatop

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Have you ever seen the carry on in the Dáil?! Last year I remember the heckling had been blown completely out of proportion in the media. I would be probably of a similar opinion to you though as the last thing teachers need is more negative media attention.

Yeah the Dáil is a riot alright :pac:. I totally agree re: negative attention. A good portion of the public are only too keen to tear teachers to pieces, and use any excuse to do so. They must be delighted with the latest development!

SpaceTime

Dail heckling is actually also blown out of proportion. 90%+ of the time it's very dull and sensible

TheDriver

hurling_lad wrote: »

Look at the points requirements for primary school teaching - around 460 last year.

It is obvious that most successful candidates are getting C's at higher level in five or six subjects. Surely one of these subjects should be maths, as is already the case with Irish, since that is one of the core subjects taught all through primary school. It would certainly be more relevant than honours history, geography, home ec., bus. org. or whatever honours' subjects in which candidates are achieving C grades.

I find a good number drop maths and take other stuff like Ag Sc or Accounting in the hope of getting the points because 460 at least is quite a haul. The bonus points do make it attractive but only while they last.
There are minimum requirements for lots of subjects e.g. biology for many courses which would seem obvious so why not core subjects like maths and English for someone who is going to lay those foundations for lots of kids?? Maths is a language too and teachers need to be fluent in it, the exact same way irish is treated.

purplecow1977

TheDriver wrote: »

I find a good number drop maths and take other stuff like Ag Sc or Accounting in the hope of getting the points because 460 at least is quite a haul. The bonus points do make it attractive but only while they last.
There are minimum requirements for lots of subjects e.g. biology for many courses which would seem obvious so why not core subjects like maths and English for someone who is going to lay those foundations for lots of kids?? Maths is a language too and teachers need to be fluent in it, the exact same way irish is treated.

Did you miss my comment earlier? At the moment HL Irish is a requirement yet our children cannot speak it after 8 years in primary school and 5 in secondary school? This requirement, if intended to improve the level of Irish in our students, has failed miserably. Why would Maths be any different?

Catari Jaguar

I find that the better you are at a subject, or skill, the worse you are at teaching it. It's second nature to you, so explaining it is difficult as is comprehending how a child just can't "get it".

I personally found maths to be a nightmare, from about 5th class up, didn't get the basics so secondary school maths was a joke, got a C in ordinary maths Leaving Cert.

In college I had to do third level maths, what a waste of time. As much time spent learning about the Fibonacci sequence as how to teach fractions to children. Ridiculous waste of time. All of teaching college maths training, imo, needs to be about the Primary School Curriculum. Know it inside out, back to front and every resource, trick and tip you can find to teach the children in an engaging, versatile, differentiated way across all levels.

Ironically, my favourite subject to teach, and I reckon where I excel as a teacher is maths. Probably because I empathise with the children who are struggling and have to work hard to understand how to work something out, I explain it in more visual and concrete ways and encourage them. If I had a teacher who was more like me in primary school, I probably wouldn't have fallen through the cracks....

jimmytwotimes 2013

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

If I had a teacher who was more like me in primary school, I probably wouldn't have fallen through the cracks....

You should get both parachutes in case one of them doesn't work

fiachr_a

Armelodie wrote: »

And what about the important subjects for non technical jobs? I think were trying to put square pegs in round holes and doing a diservice to kids who's talents lie outside the maths field. I'm not saying that maths and critical thinking aren't important but the obsession by RQ is really putting a lot if students in a lesser space.
Multinationals have no problems getting maths graduates in any country, they just want schools and universities to train their workforce for them. They are in Ireland for the tax breaks and english language. Are we still tugging the forelock to our foreign masters.

As I said, just reduce the class sizes and leave the primary teachers do their jobs. This maths thing is just a distraction.

Wrong! Too much religion and Irish in our primary schools. The brighter kids with an aptitude for maths get side lined. They get dumbed down from an early age. Then the foreign multinationals have to employ people from abroad because Irish people don't have the advanced technology skills. Sure they have good communication skills and self esteem but they don't have the brains to solve complex problems or think outside the box.

Musicman2000

Way to much focus on Maths in the education system in this country even at third level. Everyone is not technically minded and even at third level some of the maths that are being taught are no benefit to students and never will be used in the real world.

byhookorbycrook

[QUOTE=fiachr_a;90064140Then the foreign multinationals have to employ people from abroad because Irish people don't have the advanced technology skills. Sure they have good communication skills and self esteem but they don't have the brains to solve complex problems or think outside the box.[/QUOTE]
Looking for teachers to have HL Maths won't sort out the shockingly poor broadband and the lack of IT provision for schools. We are constantly told we need a knowledge economy, yet the DES won't fund laptops/tablets etc.

Christy42

Musicman2000 wrote: »

Way to much focus on Maths in the education system in this country even at third level. Everyone is not technically minded and even at third level some of the maths that are being taught are no benefit to students and never will be used in the real world.

What courses do you think shouldn't involve maths that currently involve them?


The following is not directed at Musicman2000.
In school I would have loved to have had a teacher who was better at maths, to properly challenge. Instead I just got bored. I had a few books bought by parents that I loved that challenged me in primary and in secondary school at least I should've stopped being lazy and found work online or something that would have been more entertaining for me. However in school it felt like everything was taught to the lowest common denominator and teachers should be giving students more advanced work if the student in question is up for it. The extra work would not be examinable but I am sure a lot of students with an interest in the subject would gobble up the extra reading.

evolving_doors

Christy42 wrote: »

What courses do you think shouldn't involve maths that currently involve them?


The following is not directed at Musicman2000.
In school I would have loved to have had a teacher who was better at maths, to properly challenge. Instead I just got bored. I had a few books bought by parents that I loved that challenged me in primary and in secondary school at least I should've stopped being lazy and found work online or something that would have been more entertaining for me. However in school it felt like everything was taught to the lowest common denominator and teachers should be giving students more advanced work if the student in question is up for it. The extra work would not be examinable but I am sure a lot of students with an interest in the subject would gobble up the extra reading.

I think the above is an example of poor teaching strategies more so than a need to having an Honour in LC maths. My primary school teachers were excellent all rounders who knew how to challenge the best and encourage those who needed it.

I think what Primary teachers were actually rejecting was Ruairi Quinn juxtaposing Honours maths with the 'problem' of a "Highly Feminised" workplace (that's when the Boos started). The only inference that could be drawn was that we needed honours maths to attract more men into the profession. It probably came out assways but it just shows that the guy hasn't a clue what his own thoughts are.
Although the Union leader's call for 'Sisters to unite' was equally as idiotic and insulting to the male cohort in the audience.

Christy42

Armelodie wrote: »

I think what Primary teachers were actually rejecting was Ruairi Quinn juxtaposing Honours maths with the 'problem' of a "Highly Feminised" workplace (that's when the Boos started). The only inference that could be drawn was that we needed honours maths to attract more men into the profession. It probably came out assways but it just shows that the guy hasn't a clue what his own thoughts are.
Although the Union leader's call for 'Sisters to unite' was equally as idiotic and insulting to the male cohort in the audience.

This I will completely agree with. I still don't see what the high female to male teacher ratio has to do with maths so why he mentioned it I have no idea.

hurling_lad

Musicman2000 wrote: »

Way to much focus on Maths in the education system in this country even at third level. Everyone is not technically minded and even at third level some of the maths that are being taught are no benefit to students and never will be used in the real world.

One look at the numbers of students sitting the higher level maths papers (11k in 2012) versus the numbers sitting higher Irish and English (16k and 33k respectively in 2012) would suggest that your worry about there being "way too much focus on Maths" is completely unfounded.

purplecow1977

hurling_lad wrote: »

One look at the numbers of students sitting the higher level maths papers (11k in 2012) versus the numbers sitting higher Irish and English (16k and 33k respectively in 2012) would suggest that your worry about there being "way too much focus on Maths" is completely unfounded.

Honours Maths is more time consuming than any other honours subject.
I had several friends who dropped to Ordinary level in 5th year because Maths homework was taking too long in comparison to the other subjects, and an A1 in hnours Maths is worth the same points as an A1 in honours Geography (for example). In an exam where maximising points is the aim, surely it seems more sensible to opt for the 'lesser' workload???

I stuck with higher level but I admit that it took far more time doing homework, exam questions etc than the other subjects I did.

Also, I believe more males do honours maths because it's often requirement (or at the very least a huge help) if they intend on doing engineering etc