future new sheep farmer !

futurefarmer

Hi all new to this thread but I grew up on a farm and am seriously thinking of renting some land and keeping sheep for the lifestyle more than the profit but breaking even would be good so if anyone can help me with theses questiond than I would very much appreciate it, again I dont have land rented at the moment but is 7 ewes to the acre an achievable figure with the correct fertilizer application ? What is the least amount of machinery that is needed to start up ? It will be lowland in east cork so what is a good lowland comercial bread and what kind of price would I be expecting to pay for land in east cork per acre ? Probably will be looking for between 10-20 acres

All responses greatly appreciated

Conmaicne Mara

futurefarmer wrote: »

Hi all new to this thread but I grew up on a farm and am seriously thinking of renting some land and keeping sheep for the lifestyle more than the profit but breaking even would be good so if anyone can help me with theses questiond than I would very much appreciate it, again I dont have land rented at the moment but is 7 ewes to the acre an achievable figure with the correct fertilizer application ? What is the least amount of machinery that is needed to start up ? It will be lowland in east cork so what is a good lowland comercial bread and what kind of price would I be expecting to pay for land in east cork per acre ? Probably will be looking for between 10-20 acres

All responses greatly appreciated

Something I've been looking at recently were NZ suffolks, Easyrams in the UK import them from NZ, or frozen semen into their own flock at least. They're wedged shaped, so no huge chests, which makes for easier lambing. Supposedly they have very good vigor at birth, something Suffolks this side of the world wouldn't be too well regarded for - "dopey lambs". Also meant to be a lot better on the "black head, black arse" curse, meaning dirty rear ends.

Machinery for a sheep farm, nil. Maybe a quad at a stretch. Good fencing and handling system way more important, and a good dog most important of all.

rangler1

futurefarmer wrote: »

Hi all new to this thread but I grew up on a farm and am seriously thinking of renting some land and keeping sheep for the lifestyle more than the profit but breaking even would be good so if anyone can help me with theses questiond than I would very much appreciate it, again I dont have land rented at the moment but is 7 ewes to the acre an achievable figure with the correct fertilizer application ? What is the least amount of machinery that is needed to start up ? It will be lowland in east cork so what is a good lowland comercial bread and what kind of price would I be expecting to pay for land in east cork per acre ? Probably will be looking for between 10-20 acres

All responses greatly appreciated

Five ewes to the acre would be a good target until you get used to it,
even at that the land need to be good and the grass well managed.
Belclares/lleyns out of suffolks or texels are a good crossbred.
mules are good too but can be expensive.
You don't need much machinery, tractor, loader, topper and fert spreader,
and a shed to get them off the land for the winter.
Land rental if you have dairy farmers around you will be a big problem...very expensive

arctictree

Just finished first full year sheep farming here. Only major equipment needed for me was a load of moveable gates, a good 4x4 and trailer for sheep. Borrowed the use of a shed for lambing! Only other major expense was fencing. Don't forget all the small expenses too that can add up, e.g., footcare,vaccines,dossing, lambing equipment, vet fees etc etc

futurefarmer

Thanks for the replies, low cost to start is very much the priority with renting my best option even if it will be my biggest expense, hadnt thought of a dog is it essential if you have good handling facilities ? Also what is the latest I need to be set up for lambing next march ? Thanks again

futurefarmer

Also are there still grants for fencing and mobile handling facilities ?

eire23

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Something I've been looking at recently were NZ suffolks, Easyrams in the UK import them from NZ, or frozen semen into their own flock at least. They're wedged shaped, so no huge chests, which makes for easier lambing. Supposedly they have very good vigor at birth, something Suffolks this side of the world wouldn't be too well regarded for - "dopey lambs". Also meant to be a lot better on the "black head, black arse" curse, meaning dirty rear ends.

Machinery for a sheep farm, nil. Maybe a quad at a stretch. Good fencing and handling system way more important, and a good dog most important of all.

Is there anyone selling these NZ suffolks in ireland? Ya dont hear to much about them this side of the water. If their as good as their supposed to be they shouldnt be long catching on. Have to replace a suffolk ram this year and wouldnt mind giving one a try.

gazahayes

eire23 wrote: »

Is there anyone selling these NZ suffolks in ireland? Ya dont hear to much about them this side of the water. If their as good as their supposed to be they shouldnt be long catching on. Have to replace a suffolk ram this year and wouldnt mind giving one a try.

There's a lad up the north somewhere and there could be another in Laios that I know of. If you ring Stanley engineering services he should be able to help he used 2 last year.

razor8

William Hutchison in Kilkenny uses some nz Suffolk blood. He has a website too. I think there is a Walsh guy in galway that has invested heavily in them also

Www.pedigreesheep.com

sea12

gazahayes wrote: »

There's a lad up the north somewhere and there could be another in Laios that I know of. If you ring Stanley engineering services he should be able to help he used 2 last year.

Yep i was getting a few sheep pens in Stanley's a few weeks ago. He has a big out fit. Mostly belclares but I see on done deal that he had pet lambs which were nz Suffolk cross. Pity I hadn't noticed as would have been interested to find out what they were like.

sako 85

razor8 wrote: »

William Hutchison in Kilkenny uses some nz Suffolk blood. He has a website too. I think there is a Walsh guy in galway that has invested heavily in them also

Www.pedigreesheep.com

Not to hijack the thread but has anyone ever bought a ram from William Hutchison? I'll be in the market for a Suffolk ram later this year. The website make for good reading.

Username John

Hello,

This may sound a small bit unhelpful, but I don't mean it to be... Maybe being devils advocate a bit...

You say you grew up on a farm - I would say I did the same. But I found the change from 'helping out' about the place, to being the one responsible for it all, a big change

You mention 10 - 20 acres - can I ask why so much? If its only the lifestyle you want, would lesser ground do you? 20 acres is a bit of ground.
At 4 ewes/acre, thats 80 sheep lets say, even the financials of starting off would be a bit of money - lets say at 100/ewe, thats 8k. And chances are, you'd pay more than 100 a ewe.

And as you will be renting, land might be expensive in East Cork. I am not sure what it would be , but it could be anywhere from 150 to 300 / acre. At 200 / acre, thats another 4k on top. Plus - thats assuming you'd find the land, and it would be fenced for sheep. For you starting off, you would have to get land that would have fencing in place IMO.

Managing 20 acres would take a bit of time as well. You wouldnt need much in the line of machinery, fecning would be key. I dont have a dog - but I have quiet enough sheep, and I have paddocks, so they are used to being moved about. Having the place in paddocks would be good, for managing both the sheep and the grass.

Also - I think New Zealand suffolk could be very interesting, and by the sounds of it, have a lot of merit. But as you are starting off, is there more value in starting with a 'known' breed. One that can lamb fairly unaided, and manage themselves fairly well. The NZ suffolk could be a great idea, but if it went badly, maybe a hard lambing ram or something, the potential is there to go very wrong, which would be rough enough starting off. You could always buy a NZ suffolk down the line maybe.

Timewise, lambing would be the biggest thing. Would you lamb outside, if so, then a dog is prob a necessity. If inside, obviously you'd need a shed. Would you be able to take the time off work? (say 2 - 3 weeks)

Again, would it be better to think a bit smaller to start? Say a few acres, but a few in lamb ewes, see how lambing them goes and then go for the 20 acres once you have that under your belt?

Jesus, re-reading that, it all sounds very negative. I just wouldnt like you to rush in, and then find yourself under pressure after taking too much on, and end up jacking it all in...
I will admit that once you have the grá for it, it will be a constant question of how you can manage more ewes, whilst juggling other things.. but sure that's life

Best of luck with whatever you decide anyways.

Conmaicne Mara

Username John wrote: »

Also - I think New Zealand suffolk could be very interesting, and by the sounds of it, have a lot of merit. But as you are starting off, is there more value in starting with a 'known' breed. One that can lamb fairly unaided, and manage themselves fairly well. The NZ suffolk could be a great idea, but if it went badly, maybe a hard lambing ram or something, the potential is there to go very wrong, which would be rough enough starting off. You could always buy a NZ suffolk down the line maybe.

The flocks I have read of select for easy lambing. The rams don't have the deep wide chests of the show ring variety this side of the world. The ewes are selected for wider pelvis' making lambing easier on them. The lambs are supposed to have better vigor at birth and I believe they've done quite a lot of selecting on worm resistant sheep.

I visited a farm recently with known breed, not suffolk. The farmer daren't feed the ewes before lambing as he said himself, you wouldn't get them out alive. Even with that he had to get the vet in to do two c sections.

I know which I'd rather have

Cran

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

The flocks I have read of select for easy lambing. The rams don't have the deep wide chests of the show ring variety this side of the world. The ewes are selected for wider pelvis' making lambing easier on them. The lambs are supposed to have better vigor at birth and I believe they've done quite a lot of selecting on worm resistant sheep.

Sounds a lot like Charollais to me

Conmaicne Mara

Cran wrote: »

Sounds a lot like Charollais to me

It's funny you should mention Charollais actually Cran, I started a thread not so long ago that got a poor response on purebred or something like that. Lately goodtime charlies are to the forefront of my thinking on that little project, if I were ever to get it going.

And well done on the plug lol.

Username John

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

The flocks I have read of select for easy lambing. The rams don't have the deep wide chests of the show ring variety this side of the world. The ewes are selected for wider pelvis' making lambing easier on them. The lambs are supposed to have better vigor at birth and I believe they've done quite a lot of selecting on worm resistant sheep.

I visited a farm recently with known breed, not suffolk. The farmer daren't feed the ewes before lambing as he said himself, you wouldn't get them out alive. Even with that he had to get the vet in to do two c sections.

I know which I'd rather have

Hi Con,

Yeah - to be honest, I have read the same. And it all sounds very promising. But a part of me is unsure if its all true, and would it be true for the ram you'd buy here?

My thinking is if the only change was the head was smaller and less boxy, it would be a big one

Conmaicne Mara

Username John wrote: »

Hi Con,

Yeah - to be honest, I have read the same. And it all sounds very promising. But a part of me is unsure if its all true, and would it be true for the ram you'd buy here?

My thinking is if the only change was the head was smaller and less boxy, it would be a big one

I don't know if there are genuine NZ types in Ireland (I'm not saying there isn't, just that I don't know), Easyrams in the UK seem the safest bet I know of, but I haven't looked into it properly myself, just done some reading on them.

Time is the most valuable thing, I watched sheep fairly well this lambing but only due to the fox - otherwise I'd not bother. Watching them because they may not be able get the lamb out seems a waste of time, IMO. A ewe should be able have her lambs and show you them in the morning. It should be a normal routine operation for her - an operation without a vet

There's enough work with sheep already.

rangler1

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I don't know if there are genuine NZ types in Ireland (I'm not saying there isn't, just that I don't know), Easyrams in the UK seem the safest bet I know of, but I haven't looked into it properly myself, just done some reading on them.

Time is the most valuable thing, I watched sheep fairly well this lambing but only due to the fox - otherwise I'd not bother. Watching them because they may not be able get the lamb out seems a waste of time, IMO. A ewe should be able have her lambs and show you them in the morning. It should be a normal routine operation for her - an operation without a vet

There's enough work with sheep already.

The main reason we supervise lambing closely here is mismothering, Id imagine even the nz suffolks would get mixed up if she was near two or three others lambing in a shed.
True you don't want to have to get a vet ,but you don't need to go to NZ to get easy lambing breeds, I wouldn't count a head out or a leg down hard work.....you're going to be around anyway.
The number of lambs on the ground determines your income, so it's important to mind them.

Conmaicne Mara

rangler1 wrote: »

The main reason we supervise lambing closely here is mismothering, Id imagine even the nz suffolks would get mixed up if she was near two or three others lambing in a shed.
True you don't want to have to get a vet ,but you don't need to go to NZ to get easy lambing breeds, I wouldn't count a head out or a leg down hard work.....you're going to be around anyway.
The number of lambs on the ground determines your income, so it's important to mind them.

We lambed indoors for a number of years and never checked them at night, late 80's early 90's. We had 6 pens and could house 160 at the time if I remember right, 25 in each corner pen and 30 in the middle pens. There were 25 sets of twins one morning, took a little sorting but got done. (Blackface to blackface & suffolk rams, Border Leicester to Suffolk rams)

I saw a lovely simple shed layout on a UK site that had about 10 ewes per pen. If I remember right there was one row of pens along a wall, a driveway for feeding, two rows back to back, a driveway, and another row along the far wall. It was a whopper of a shed, all the pens could be removed.

Where I am coming from is the farmers own labour time. I value my time at lambing and I value my sleep more. While I don't have many sheep at all, Dads farm takes a lot of time due to disorganisation and fragmentation, many days are wasted "firefighting" issues that needn't have arisen at all. So I like to look for the handy ways of achieving the same thing. Not that I maybe come across that way all the time

I'm not talking about less lambs at all, a similar amount, (or neglecting them) but with less time input from the farmer. I checked mine at night this year because of the fox trouble I had last year, no fox loss to my flock in 14 so far, touch wood. So next year please God I can lamb them indoors in the tunnel, that saves me time because I sure as fook won't be checking on them outside of normal routine once I have them safe indoors. That's time I can use to do something else.

eire23

rangler1 wrote: »

The main reason we supervise lambing closely here is mismothering, Id imagine even the nz suffolks would get mixed up if she was near two or three others lambing in a shed.
True you don't want to have to get a vet ,but you don't need to go to NZ to get easy lambing breeds, I wouldn't count a head out or a leg down hard work.....you're going to be around anyway.
The number of lambs on the ground determines your income, so it's important to mind them.

I think generally where sheep are housed for the winter you tend to get more mis-presentations. Dont know is it because they havent as much space to move around or what but it certainly seems that way.

arctictree

eire23 wrote: »

I think generally where sheep are housed for the winter you tend to get more mis-presentations. Dont know is it because they havent as much space to move around or what but it certainly seems that way.

Could it just be that the farmer is around to notice the mis-presentations? Outside, the ewe probably just lambs this eventually...

rangler1

arctictree wrote: »

Could it just be that the farmer is around to notice the mis-presentations? Outside, the ewe probably just lambs this eventually...

or you find them a few hours later with they lamb stuck

Western Pomise

eire23 wrote: »

I think generally where sheep are housed for the winter you tend to get more mis-presentations. Dont know is it because they havent as much space to move around or what but it certainly seems that way.[/quote



One definite factor is there's far more contact between ewes eating from a feeder or eating nuts inside so lambs get bounced around more inside ewes when their housed.

tomwaterford

rangler1 wrote: »

The main reason we supervise lambing closely here is mismothering, Id imagine even the nz suffolks would get mixed up if she was near two or three others lambing in a shed.
True you don't want to have to get a vet ,but you don't need to go to NZ to get easy lambing breeds, I wouldn't count a head out or a leg down hard work.....you're going to be around anyway.
The number of lambs on the ground determines your income, so it's important to mind them.

+100%

in the rush for all these easy care sheep these two most important points are forgotton about
I have texels here and try to go for longer breed (as I prefer for various reasons)...and find they never give anything only basic issues even at that rarely.....like you said its lambs on the ground leave you the money...not a high scanning rate and you lose a load of lambs to mismotering/needless deaths at lambing time....like leaving the whole lot at 9pm and not ng to the morning...esp indoor lambing...its only 3 weeks of the year you'd be right busy
I made out before roughly between hay,straw and meal.etc it works out e20-25 a lamb roughly before they are born....think like every needless dead lamb you are throwing away e25

Conmaicne Mara

tomwaterford wrote: »

+100%

in the rush for all these easy care sheep these two most important points are forgotton about
I have texels here and try to go for longer breed (as I prefer for various reasons)...and find they never give anything only basic issues even at that rarely.....like you said its lambs on the ground leave you the money...not a high scanning rate and you lose a load of lambs to mismotering/needless deaths at lambing time....like leaving the whole lot at 9pm and not ng to the morning...esp indoor lambing...its only 3 weeks of the year you'd be right busy
I made out before roughly between hay,straw and meal.etc it works out e20-25 a lamb roughly before they are born....think like every needless dead lamb you are throwing away e25

Uhm, no.

I've already said I've done indoor and outdoor lambing have I not?

It's being wrongly assumed that easy care = neglect.

eire23

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Uhm, no.

I've already said I've done indoor and outdoor lambing have I not?

It's being wrongly assumed that easy care = neglect.

So when you go lambing seep inside again con, you wont check them at all at night? Just check them at 10 or 11 and leave them till the morning?

Fair play to ya but i couldnt do it, Dont think id sleep:pac:
Do check them here at half 10/11, 2, 5 and and up then at 7 and still have some mis mothering, or lose some lambs.

Conmaicne Mara

eire23 wrote: »

So when you go lambing seep inside again con, you wont check them at all at night? Just check them at 10 or 11 and leave them till the morning?

Fair play to ya but i couldnt do it, Dont think id sleep:pac:
Do check them here at half 10/11, 2, 5 and and up then at 7 and still have some mis mothering, or lose some lambs.

Correct, because my ewes can lamb by themselves - which is VERY different from ewes that can't - , buggered if I will be getting up in the middle of the night to check. I currently lamb outdoors now as I had no housing. As I said earlier, the ONLY reason I checked them around midnight this year was because of the fox, to apply some tar. First thing I know of a ewe lambing is when I see her with a lamb, or two. It will be no different inside next year in the tunnel, except I shall sleep. To call it neglect is to not understand what's happening, a ewe that has to be minded is a liability IMO, the system shouldn't be that labour intensive.

Mismothering, maybe smaller pen sizes with less ewes would help with that. Like the shed I saw on the UK site. As to lambing difficulty, ewes bred for wider pelvis and rams with narrower shoulders have to be easier lambing, therefore less problems, less labour, more time to do other things.

eire23

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Correct, because my ewes can lamb by themselves, buggered if I will be getting up in the middle of the night to check. I currently lamb outdoors now as I had no housing. As I said earlier, the ONLY reason I checked them around midnight this year was because of the fox, to apply some tar. First thing I know of a ewe lambing is when I see her with a lamb, or two. It will be no different inside next year in the tunnel, except I shall sleep. To call it neglect is to not understand what's happening, a ewe that has to be minded is a liability IMO, the system shouldn't be that labour intensive.

I cant agree with ya on this con!If i didnt check them that often there would be too much mis mothering and i never called it neglect at all but its only 3-4 weeks in the year and as has been said it determines how sucessfull your year will be.Also im getting a high scan rate here and trying to achieve a high weaning rate (weaned 1.8 last year) so theres in point in leaving them to get on with it at night and end up losing whatever number of lambs over the course of the lambing and end up with a reduced rate . The majority of sheep will and do lamb themselves but theres no point in expecting them all to . What happens say in the middle of the night ya get triples coming tangled, just a head out or a head gone back? Let them get on with it? and possibly loose lambs that could have been prevented.Should these ewes be culled because their a liability? Also if a single lambs at night and your not there you miss the chance to wet foster a lamb on to her and i done a good few at night this year. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one!:pac:

Conmaicne Mara

eire23 wrote: »

I cant agree with ya on this con!If i didnt check them that often there would be too much mis mothering and i never called it neglect at all but its only 3-4 weeks in the year and as has been said it determines how sucessfull your year will be.Also im getting a high scan rate here and trying to achieve a high weaning rate (weaned 1.8 last year) so theres in point in leaving them to get on with it at night and end up losing whatever number of lambs over the course of the lambing and end up with a reduced rate . The majority of sheep will and do lamb themselves but theres no point in expecting them all to . What happens say in the middle of the night ya get triples coming tangled, just a head out or a head gone back? Let them get on with it? and possibly loose lambs that could have been prevented.Should these ewes be culled because their a liability? Also if a single lambs at night and your not there you miss the chance to wet foster a lamb on to her and i done a good few at night this year. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one!:pac:

First things first, I am not trying to convince you. That is your system, if it suits you then it suits you, I would do it differently. The neglect aspect was alluded to earlier, in fairness not by yourself, I was including it in my general point.

I was suggesting a different system to the op. A system where the ewe has been bred to do the work. Some seem to think that means neglecting ewes, it is the opposite, it is breeding the tools into the ewe so she can do the work successfully herself.

One example I can think of is my Cheviot cross ewe, she was big as a house before lambing. Plan was to move herself and another ewe into Dads shed for two reasons, we had a few bitter days in March, and foxes, they were both expecting twins. Cheviot ewe decided to start lambing at nightfall, Dad wanted to take the two lambs from her, I said no way, she'll lamb herself, he wasn't at all happy. An hour later she had two fine lambs and was fussing over them like I knew she would. I sold her wether lamb last year at 48.8kg, kept her ewe lamb as a replacement, off a rocky hill farm by the sea in Connemara not too shabby.

My lambing % was 145% this year, I was hoping for 150% but fell short of that. I will push them more again this year, but I am a hill farm and need to remember that also. As to the "what do you do if...." type questions, I lost 0 ewes, and 0 lambs during the lambing process. Fine yes, I have only a few ewes, but the model can be scaled up.

Three ewes I assisted on my rounds, two didn't need the help, I was just there and made the decision to interfere by slightly stretching the skin over horns. The third was an experienced ewe slow to have her second lamb, no reason for this as they weren't huge and were coming right. Again she most likely would have had him in her own time.

Most sheep that turn into time sinks on my farm get road as culls. If they don't fit what I want to do then they have no place here, there are plenty more sheep on the planet without keeping labour intensive individuals.

arctictree

Not anywhere close to the experience you guys have but I lambed 11 this year inside. One died that may have been saved if I was there. Was checking last thing at night and first thing in the morning. I also value my sleep a lot!

eire23

arctictree wrote: »

Not anywhere close to the experience you guys have but I lambed 11 this year inside. One died that may have been saved if I was there. Was checking last thing at night and first thing in the morning. I also value my sleep a lot!

For arguments sake, say ya lost 1 lamb for every 12 ewes lambed. In a flock of 200 i think that works out at 16 lambs. At a minimum price of 80 euros a lamb thats nearly 1300 euro lost. And then ya might have more on top of that, it wouldnt be long adding up.