motorcycle crash during IBT

motornewbie

Just looking for some advice. I had a rough day yesterday..my first time on a motorcycle, did day one of ibt on a 125cc. Ends up with me crashing headfirst into a ditch and the instructor informing me that I've to pay €300 to straighten the front of his bike.      


Any advice on what to do? What are my rights?


Here's a bit more info. So I liked the instructor and don't want to name and shame, hence the new boards account.  But thinking back it all seems a bit negligent. 


We started off with zero theory. Literally filled out first form checking insurance etc... The  he decided to skip theory and go straight on the road. I told him I'd never even driven a car. Did few hours in car park then to the road. 

I was being cautious. Probably over cautious. All day and he was constantly telling me I was too cautious starting the bike and driving too slow. I was slowing down traffic at 40 and i pulled in and asked should i pull in to let them pass. Amd he said no, pointed to the road tax and said as long as im doing 50 it's fine. Then we go again. I'm still at 40. he tells me that this was a good road surface and "you should be getting up to 65 kph". I remember looking straight at the speed gauge and I was doing 40 and thinking I couldn't imagine going much faster on a bendy country road. So to get to the point..less that 1km after being told to speed up I crash at a corner into the ditch. 


Now who's fault is it?              

Mine

1) I was driving the bike

2) I didn't need to speed up to his speed. Should have trusted my own instincts not his.



His

1) hed done no theory

2) he told me to speed up right before crash (he said speed was cause of the crash)

3) my gloves were massive and he knew. I kept pressing the horn by mistake with them.

4) He did not have insurance. He said he had explained that "we'd have to have a talk" if I drove his bike into a wall..which I thought was a joke. We'd been joking all morning.

5) he told me not to tell anyone about the accident. Twice after the crash.. I'm not sure why this is relevant but it just seems wrong. I told my housemate just in case I had concussion.

6) he didn't even check me for concussion and barely asked if I was ok. I told him I thought I would puke and he said just make sure not do it in the van.

7) he didn't clean up my 2nd degree road rash. 

8) he left me alone on a dangerous bend to watch the motorbike after the crash.

9) instead of taking me to a doctor after the crash he made me go to the bike shop to drop off the bike to get fixed.


clearly this guy has no health and safety procedures and couldn't give a feck about his students. I don't want to ruin his business but at the same time I wouldn't recommend him to ANYONE. I think he needs to start following procedures and get some health and safety though.


Situation currently. Its the day after the crash. I'm sitting here still very very shaken.  My head ache is still here. Every muscle and body part hurts. Particularly my neck and back and head. I hurts to lift or turn my head. I've bruised swollen kneecaps because the gear didn't fit at all and had no knee protection coz pads were on my shins. I don't think I could ride a bike again. But i really want to. Normally I'm not scared you know? but this really really shook me. The guy just left me on the side of the road after the accident. Bleeding and sore and shook.


I'm going to the doc today as the head ache is still here and the neck turning is extremely painful. I'm quite scared and just don't really know what to do. Are all bike schools like this? I really felt like he only cared about the bike after the crash. Now I'm at home here dealing with the pain and so stressed about it all. What should I do? I'm glad I told someone as he made me really feel like I should keep it to myself. I was actually crying when I told my housemate. 

 Just so it's clear I've no interest in suing the bike school for negligence. Or even asking them to pay my medical bills. But this instructor made me feel so ****y after the crash. I'm so bruised from wearing gear 2 sizes to big for me. But at the same time, I don't feel like I should pay the €200-300 for the bike as I don't feel like I was prepared for road, no theory and talk about what to expect, no agreement to pay for it on my end, and I was just thrown in deep end and literally told to keep up. What do ye think?

jimgoose

To be perfectly straight with you this character sounds like a cowboy. What kind of window-licking lunatic would be giving motorcycle instruction without proper insurance??

faceman

First and foremost you need to get to a doctor or A&E ASAP.

Secondly, the trainer should have his own insurance so you have no obligation to pay anything toward the bike repair.

Thirdly, his behaviour is of grave concern. I would very much encourage you to report the incident and the trainer to avoid something worse happening to someone else in the future.

You are understandably shaken after the incident and the trainer did nothing to help. Don't let this put you off bike riding. There are some excellent teachers out there and bike riding is such a wonderful pastime.

Hope your injuries recover quickly. Keep us posted on your progress.

goodlad

Absolutely get to a doctor and get yourself checked out.

Also report the incident to the Garda so its on record.

If the trainer is approved to do the IBT also pass details of this to the RSA.

mb1725

The training school must be insured, how could they expect a student to get cover? Contact the RSA and see if this guy is on their panel of approved trainers. If he is, make a complaint to them and I think you should report the incident to the Gardaí to cover yourself.

seamus

Yep, guy sounds like a complete cowboy. The kind of person who thinks that because they've been driving for X years that they're qualified to teach it.

There are a couple of things at play here:

- In strict road traffic act terms, you were driving the bike, therefore you're liable when you crash it
- However, you were using equipment belonging to the school during an official course being provided by that school. Which means that damage to that equipment is covered by the school's own insurance policy. You can only be liable if your actions massively exceeded those expected of a student. Which considering you'd never driven a bike before, is not the case.
- According to the IBT curriculum, you shouldn't be on the road until you've completed 3 modules totalling 10 hours of training, most of which is on the bike, but off the road.
- Overall, a combination of his own instructor's insurance and 3rd party liability insurance should cover the damage to the bike and the injuries you suffered.

Report him to the RSA (this guy shouldn't be on the approved list) and make a claim for all doctor/hospital bills against his insurance.


More than ten years ago now I had to rent a bike from an Irish Motoring School for a bike test because I only had a 125. This was back in the days of the long waits, so rather than wait 10 months to get a test locally I applied in Athlone which had something like 4 months. The school were happy enough to do this, but I think I paid an extra levy because I'd have to take the bike for longer and it was half a day for the instructor who had to accompany me for insurance purposes.

Anyway, it was an icy day, but we went ahead anyway. The instructor basically said "try and keep up" and we hammered through the Phoenix park at 60kmh+, on an icy February morning, on a bike that I wasn't used to at all. And then onto the motorway, "Take off the high-vis jacket and say nothing". The bike ended up breaking down halfway to the test and we had to abandon the bike on the side of the road and drive back pillion.
I went again (to Finglas) a few months later with a different instructor, much more professional, told him the story and he just rolled his eyes to heaven and said, "And what does that tell you about the guy who's supposed to be an instructor?".

minidazzler

Unless you signed something saying you'd cover the excess on repairs, you owe him nothing.

And NO, Not all bike schools are like that.... it's the most unprofessional thing I've ever heard. Skipping the theory sections despite you never being on the road? WTF???

Report him to the RSA.

jimgoose

minidazzler wrote: »

...And NO, Not all bike schools are like that.... it's the most unprofessional thing I've ever heard. Skipping the theory sections despite you never being on the road? WTF???...

Hear-hear. I returned to motorcycling in 2010 after a ten-year hiatus. To that end I did a pre-test course with a well-known ADI here in Cork. At the ripe old age of 38, and with twelve years on Gixxers, EXUPs etc. under my belt, I spent two hours on the basics of the machine, verifying that I could manhandle it properly, move it off, stop it, exercise basic control during figure-of-eights around the yard, and so on, before going near the road. And rightly so.

motornewbie

Thanks guys. Im going to go to the doc and maybe gards to report the crash. I didn't sign anything to pay the excess no. I kinda want to put the whole thing behind me. But also I have wanted a bike forever. And I do think the guy should be more careful. He's got people booked in next week and I would feel bad if something happened to them in fairness.

designbydan

That's just shocking,

After you get yourself fixed up make sure you report him!

I wouldn't give two flying f**ks about his business, it really sounds like he shouldn't have one anyway with the way he trains people.

Apart from your own incident, think of all the people that he could have "trained" and sent out on the road, it's just dangerous on all accounts to have this guy call himself an instructor .

On a side note if he really was a nice guy he would've bothered his h*le to make sure you were ok after the crash! Definitely report him.

goodlad

motornewbie wrote: »

Thanks guys. Im going to go to the doc and maybe gards to report the crash. I didn't sign anything to pay the excess no. I kinda want to put the whole thing behind me. But also I have wanted a bike forever. And I do think the guy should be more careful. He's got people booked in next week and I would feel bad if something happened to them in fairness.

While you are shaken by the whole thing please dont just maybe go to the garda. Its very worthwhile making the effort to report this to the garda and the RSA.

Not reporting it is just going to help this kinda crap continue.

Pawwed Rig

The headache sounds very worrying. As faceman says go to a doctor or A&E now. Not later, not in half an hour, NOW.

designbydan

motornewbie wrote: »

Thanks guys. Im going to go to the doc and maybe gards to report the crash. I didn't sign anything to pay the excess no. I kinda want to put the whole thing behind me. But also I have wanted a bike forever. And I do think the guy should be more careful. He's got people booked in next week and I would feel bad if something happened to them in fairness.

Don't let this incident deter you from getting a bike or doing your IBT, just go with an instructor that you've been recommended, I'm sure anyone on here myself included could recommend you a DECENT instructor if you wanted.

Doylers

Im going to echo what everyone else is saying, get yourself checked about and tell him to go fu*k himself. You owe nothing and he's clearly covering his own ass by asking you not to tell anyone. I had a small fall during my IBT, was down to more been being overconfident and just new to biking. I broke and indicator, the instructor said no bother don't worry about it, we left if there and the rest of my lessons off him just fine.

nelly17

Tell him to go through the small claims court if he wants the money from you - he's a cowboy and wont have a leg to stand on so wont do it

CNTRLR

echo the sentiments above, but make sure you contact the RSA, this is their course designed to save lives, and clearly this guy is not up to the task.

He should have seen you were nervous and pulled you in somewhere safe to do a bit more practice.. i hope you didn't pay him in full for the IBT, as i would be asking him for a refund straight off, as he has no idea what he is up to,

DubVelo

That's absolutely shockin' behaviour!!! :eek:

I can tell you, I had a crash on my IBT and I'd say I did a fair whack more than €300 worth of damage to the bike. My instructor was more concerned about was I ok and did I need to get checked out and he didn't want me to be put off biking after it.

I mean, he was probably cursing me in his head later on but he just booked me back in when the bike was fixed and we carried on. Decent fella. Got the mick taken a fair bit when I came back in but other than that... :rolleyes:

Feeling sick after a knock is a sure sign of concussion, which REALLY needs checking out to make sure it's not dangerous. What kind of feckin' eejit leaves someone at the side of the road with concussion and says 'Don't tell anyone'!?

Total cowboy and what's more, a total c***!

DubVelo

motornewbie wrote: »

Particularly my neck and back and head. I hurts to lift or turn my head.

Oh yeah, you really need to get this checked out BTW.

the cats pajamas

You need to report this guy to the RSA.
I would consider a solicitors letter to put the sh*ts into him but if that's not your style, then fine.
But definitely the guards and RSA.
How would you feel, what advice would you give if all this had happened to your little sister or brother? I know what i would do.
Out of curiosity what did he do with the helmet you crashed in (did he wipe it down or check whether it could be reused )?

motornewbie

the cats pajamas wrote: »

You need to report this guy to the RSA.
I would consider a solicitors letter to put the sh*ts into him but if that's not your style, then fine.
But definitely the guards and RSA.
How would you feel, what advice would you give if all this had happened to your little sister or brother? I know what i would do.
Out of curiosity what did he do with the helmet you crashed in (did he wipe it down or check whether it could be reused )?

I'd be furious if it was a sibling alright. The helmet had some holes in the side. Like skinny drill holes right through them. I'm not sure I'd they were always there or not. I asked him at the start of the day if they were multi impact helmets and he said you're supposed to replace after a crash but you don't really need to. The holes on the side were weird. Don't know how they got there if it was from my crash!

Thanks for all the advice i feel a lot better mentally knowing that this isn't normal behaviour. I will email the RSA regarding it. Just in case it happens to somebody else.

Pawwed Rig

motornewbie wrote: »

asked him at the start of the day if they were multi impact helmets and he said you're supposed to replace after a crash but you don't really need to. The holes on the side were weird. Don't know how they got there if it was from my crash!

:eek:


Hope you are ok man.

jimgoose

motornewbie wrote: »

...The helmet had some holes in the side. Like skinny drill holes right through them. I'm not sure I'd they were always there or not. I asked him at the start of the day if they were multi impact helmets and he said you're supposed to replace after a crash but you don't really need to...

This just gets better and better. Possibly defective helmet, dangerously incorrect advice regarding helmet care and use. Report his pimply ass immediately.

motornewbie

jimgoose wrote: »

This just gets better and better. Possibly defective helmet, dangerously incorrect advice regarding helmet care and use. Report his pimply ass immediately.

Actually it was definitely an old helmet. The clip was broken partially. There was a strap you pulled through two metal clips (you know the old school type?) And there was a second clip that needed to clip to secure it which was broken. Yea ok ill defo email the RSA to get this guy checked before he does other people!

SamAK

Get off the fecking internet and go and get some medical attention.

motornewbie

SamAK wrote: »

Get off the fecking internet and go and get some medical attention.

I'm in the waiting room here...just about to be seen. Thanks!

Cienciano

Bloody hell, he seems like a complete chancer! I'd definitely report him to the RSA.
The cherry on top is him asking you for €300 to fix the bike! Bloody hell, that really adds insult to injury.

Idleater

motornewbie wrote: »

Actually it was definitely an old helmet. The clip was broken partially. There was a strap you pulled through two metal clips (you know the old school type?) And there was a second clip that needed to clip to secure it which was broken. Yea ok ill defo email the RSA to get this guy checked before he does other people!

Glad you are getting yourself sorted out, I won't echo the other posters who are all correct. Just a FYI, since you asked, the holes are most likely ventilation holes but are just missing the outer piece that you can open and close like a vent, therefore perfectly fine. Also, the double d clasp that you describe is actually better than the clip into place ones as they are secured properly each time you close the helmet rather than once and left to stretch or slide unadjusted through use. The double d clasp is the only mechanism allowed when racing for instance.
The things to note with helmets (for your future reference) is dents and scratches that can undermine the structural integrity of the helmet in an accident. When you get more comfortable with the bike and gear (I do hope you are not put off by this unfortunate experience) bits of information like these may come in handy when you are looking for gear. Make sure you keep your belongings in good condition and they will last.

To a swift recovery...

SamAK

motornewbie wrote: »

I'm in the waiting room here...just about to be seen. Thanks!

Hope you're alright, good luck!

Seanie_H

You should name this guy to make sure nobody else gets hurt.

Hopefully all goes well for you. Brutal story.

minidazzler

Seanie_H wrote: »

You should name this guy to make sure nobody else gets hurt.

Hopefully all goes well for you. Brutal story.

Not on here he shouldn't... could be seen as slander.

If the vents were broken off the helmet I have to wonder how old that helmet was....

OP have you paid him yet? And how much was he charging?

Wonda-Boy

Being a close friend to 2 different IBT instructors I can tell you that what you have experienced is totally out of order, and not how IBT should be done. That so called instructor is more worried about his bike then your health!!!! Glad you took the advice to get yourself checked out and make sure you are okay. If I was you I would report the accident to the police to make it official and then that instructor to the RSA so nobody else has the same experience you had. Can you imagine if you were on a more powerful bike!!!!

I would be claiming off his insurance for the hospital bill/doctor too.

It is in the interest to every biker sharing the road with people learning IBT that you should name and shame this person. Otherwise there will be dozens of lads getting the wrong training and bring put off biking for good.

Just as a matter of interest....

Was the instructor setting the pace in front or following you when the crash happened?
What type of communication did the instructor have with you while riding?
Are you a male or a female (Not that it matters)....?

unclebill98

Im am shocked by this tread. simple. Hope your ok and i'd agree with everything thats been said.

LookBehindYou

I hope you are ok.
The instructor should have shown more concern for you than his school bike.
A bike can be fixed, its much more difficult to repair a human.
You should have been offered protective gear that fit you, to keep you protected as much as possible.
Not all instructors are like the one you had.
Do not allow this accident to put you off biking. You should get back on a bike as soon as you are feeling fit, to ride again.

I can offer you free training to get you back riding confidently on a bike.
If you want to take up the offer, send me a pm to arrange.

goodlad

LookBehindYou wrote: »

I hope you are ok.
The instructor should have shown more concern for you than his school bike.
A bike can be fixed, its much more difficult to repair a human.
You should have been offered protective gear that fit you, to keep you protected as much as possible.
Not all instructors are like the one you had.
Do not allow this accident to put you off biking. You should get back on a bike as soon as you are feeling fit, to ride again.

I can offer you free training to get you back riding confidently on a bike.
If you want to take up the offer, send me a pm to arrange.

Mick. You are a ****ing legend. That's a savage offer for the chap.

Roadskill

Discraceful conduct if they are the facts (btw I don't doubt you). You are the victim of a cowboy and a danger to other new riders. In my opinion you should put your whole experience on an email with as much detail as possible.
The following points should be addressed.
1. Did he check your learner permit
2. Did you tick off and sign the pre-training checks form
3. All school bikes should be insured fully comprehensive
4. There's a €250 excess attached to the insurance that I ask the trainee to cover if the bike is crashed which is signed as an agreement between both parties.
5. Excess is never charged for minor damage only insurance claims.
6. You should have module 1, 2 & 3 completed and signed off in your log book prior to module 4 the on road training commencing.
7. The Garda & ambulance should have been called due to injuries sustained during an rta
8. You should not have been left alone ever during ibt or an accident.

I could go on to list 20 different things but the main thing is you report this fool.
I am sick of hearing these stories from all over the country so please do something as as instructors we cannot do anything unless trainees are willing to put it in writing.
please don't be put off by this sorry excuse for an instructor and make sure you get well soon.

One last thing. Don't pay him a cent

Nice offer from lookbehindyou when your up for it.

You can report it using the following email address

adienforcement@rsa.ie

robinwing

Is motornewbie taking the piss out of all of you ? I find his story very hard to believe , maybe he should have posted it on the 1st of april

Blondie919

robinwing wrote: »

Is motornewbie taking the piss out of all of you ? I find his story very hard to believe , maybe he should have posted it on the 1st of april

Are you taking the piss?

K.Flyer

robinwing wrote: »

Is motornewbie taking the piss out of all of you ? I find his story very hard to believe , maybe he should have posted it on the 1st of april

Why should it be hard to believe, there are cowboys in every part of the service industry, why should bike training be any different.
Or has it touched a nerve with you in particular.

nerrad1983

Great offer from Mick, fair play

When you feel up to it take this offer up and you will be defo put on the right track. Micks a great instructor and a sound chap

Don't let this put you off getting in to bikes, it's one of the best decisions I've made in my life, I regret not starting sooner tbh

Best of luck in the future mate

Wonda-Boy

Maybe it is a piss take...maybe it isnt. Fact is, there are genuine people on here looking out for each other. Even if we dont know each other.....the offer for free training in very very generous. And I wish there were more genuine people like that around.

robinwing

There was a similar thread on Biker.ie a while ago about a guy who said a cop car ran into him and sped away then another cop car stops beside him and a lady cop gets out and tells him he is lucky not to be getting prosecuted etc . the whole story was a total fabrication it transpired . Read his original post again but this time with a critical eye

Roadskill

robinwing wrote: »

Is motornewbie taking the piss out of all of you ? I find his story very hard to believe , maybe he should have posted it on the 1st of april

It could be made up for a laugh but it's not funny and I believe it.
Unfortunately I have heard of similar experiences from other new riders who are afraid to complain to the RSA. This could have been a fatality due to negligence and it has to stop.

robinwing

Roadskill wrote: »

Yes that was so far fetched it could have been a comedy sketch but the OP has too much detail and seems genuinely aggrieved.
I hope its not bull as it is a serious problem out there.

His knee pads were on his shins ? He was wearing over-sized heavy protective clothing but has 2nd degree road rash after tipping into a ditch ?

Roadcraft

There is only one way to stop a cowboy like this, do us all a favour and report him to the RSA.

Trebob

Jesus hope your ok OP as had been said report this cowboy to the Gardai and RSA. When I did my ibt I did sign the excess waiver think it a couple of hundred quid that was only if there was going to be a claim, minor damage ect no excess. I wouldn't pay this guy a cent and it would be him paying for my bills.

Take up that kind offer and get up on that bike again you won't regret it.

Trebob

Jesus hope your ok OP as had been said report this cowboy to the Gardai and RSA. When I did my ibt I did sign the excess waiver think it a couple of hundred quid that was only if there was going to be a claim, minor damage ect no excess. I wouldn't pay this guy a cent and it would be him paying for my bills.

Take up that kind offer and get up on that bike again you won't regret it.

Pugzilla

Blondie919 wrote: »

Are you taking the piss?

I think the OP is. How do you get "2nd degree road rash" from going into a ditch?

designbydan

I can't explain the road rash/ditch issue as I've been lucky enough to never experience it.

But I've had a few fairly short girls on the bike and when they wear my spare bike trousers all of them have the knee pads at their shins. So that makes sense.

And maybe the gear was too big cause this guy is fairly short/small too. A huge winter glove would cause you to press the bike horn instead if the indicator a few times, especially if you've never ridden a bike.

Also if the clothes were too big the gloves could've come right off, or jacket ridden up, causing the rash.

I'm not saying the guy definitely isn't lying, but it's hardly an unbelievable story.

minidazzler

I've heard before that Lookbehindyou is a nice guy, but that offer is phenomenal. OP, take an hour with him if you are based around Dublin, by literally all accounts I've seen on here, he is really good.

And, REPORT the bollix who you previously did training with...


The main reason I believe this story is because the OP didn't name anyone. Naming them would make me think they had a previous grievance, but he didn't so I think there's probably an accurate story being told....

And bike gear can give you "road rash" if it scrapes against you enough, second degree may be over exaggerating, but it could definitely have happened.

jimgoose

Pugzilla wrote: »

I think the OP is. How do you get "2nd degree road rash" from going into a ditch?

You'd be surprised what you'd spend the following day picking out of your arse after sliding into an apparently soft, grassy ditch. I was that soldier!

Wonda-Boy

minidazzler wrote: »

I've heard before that Lookbehindyou is a nice guy, but that offer is phenomenal. OP, take an hour with him if you are based around Dublin, by literally all accounts I've seen on here, he is really good.

And, REPORT the bollix who you previously did training with...


The main reason I believe this story is because the OP didn't name anyone. Naming them would make me think they had a previous grievance, but he didn't so I think there's probably an accurate story being told....

And bike gear can give you "road rash" if it scrapes against you enough, second degree may be over exaggerating, but it could definitely have happened.

That offer is above and beyond generous....but that is normal for roadtraining.ie (Lookbehindyou) I have seen 1st hand extra training being given countless times to riders still not confident after training so extra training was given free of charge to get them confident. At his own expense I might add.

What you want from a trainer is a passion for motorbikes not a passion for making money off inexperienced people.