Is my broker liable?

larry obrien

Caught up in the Satanta insurance crap. Paid €600 for insurance through a broker in January so have 8 months left. I reckon my broker is liable for the refund as I paid my money to him and therefore my contract is with him???? Reckon there will be a row over this!!

dricko_lim

larry obrien wrote: »

Caught up in the Satanta insurance crap. Paid €600 for insurance through a broker in January so have 8 months left. I reckon my broker is liable for the refund as I paid my money to him and therefore my contract is with him???? Reckon there will be a row over this!!

Your contract is with setanta, the policy form you signed would be a setanta one. You'll find the brokers terms of business will have them covered

amdublin

Your broker does not have your money, Setanta does.
Your contract is with Setanta.
Your broker would not have known Setanta were closing.

While your broker may have recommended Setanta to you (on price maybe?) it was YOU who chose to go with Setanta.

Ring Setanta on Tuesday to see if you are still covered/are you due your money back.

larry obrien

dricko_lim wrote: »

Your contract is with setanta, the policy form you signed would be a setanta one. You'll find the brokers terms of business will have them covered

Are the terms and conditions valid in law? I didnt sign to the terms and conditions of the broker, just paid the money. Is he not covered by his own scheme, like travel agents are? What a joke this is. Bank holiday weekend and car stuck in the drive

amdublin

larry obrien wrote: »

Are the terms and conditions valid in law? I didnt sign to the terms and conditions of the broker, just paid the money. Is he not covered by his own scheme, like travel agents are? What a joke this is. Bank holiday weekend and car stuck in the drive

Yes a complete joke. But why are you obesessing with the broker and not the insurance company.

I believe the scheme you are referring to with the travel agents is for when the travel agent goes bust? This is different, the broker has not gone bust, the insurance company has.

Mycroft H

amdublin wrote: »

Yes a complete joke. But why are you obesessing with the broker and not the insurance company.

I believe the scheme you are referring to with the travel agents is for when the travel agent goes bust? This is different, the broker has not gone bust, the insurance company has.

Because the chances of getting a refund of setanta at this stage are diddley squat.

Surely the broker has to have some sort if liability here; he sold the product.

Agent_99

larry obrien wrote: »

Are the terms and conditions valid in law? I didnt sign to the terms and conditions of the broker, just paid the money. Is he not covered by his own scheme, like travel agents are? What a joke this is. Bank holiday weekend and car stuck in the drive

Is your Broker not open today so you can get cover for your car? Ours stayed open late last night to arrange alt cover and are opening today as well to get in contact with any outstanding customers.

Or go online and arrange new cover yourself.

Cabaal

The broker acted in good faith,
You agreed to the insurance company's Terms & Conditions so your contract is with them, if for example you previously had to make a claim you would have contacted the insurance company....not your broker.

amdublin

Mycroft H wrote: »

Because the chances of getting a refund of setanta at this stage are diddley squat.

Surely the broker has to have some sort if liability here; he sold the product.

Liable for what/liable how? Is he supposed to be divinely inspired about insurance companies that might go out of business?

He acted in good faith.

The broker is not responsible for an insurance company going broke. He does not have your money.

Get on to Setanta first thing Tuesday morning.

bagofweasels

amdublin wrote: »

Your broker would not have known Setanta were closing

Possibly not relevant, maybe we were lucky to have a clued in broker. Our van insurance was up for renewal in March. We'd been with Setanta for a few years before. At the end of February our broker advised us that they (not entirely sure if 'they' meant the broker or Setanta) were not underwriting new or renewal policies. We went with a different insurer.

skelligs

bagofweasels wrote: »

Possibly not relevant, maybe we were lucky to have a clued in broker. Our van insurance was up for renewal in March. We'd been with Setanta for a few years before. At the end of February our broker advised us that they (not entirely sure if 'they' meant the broker or Setanta) were not underwriting new or renewal policies. We went with a different insurer.

setanta announced in january (jan 26th) that they were not writing any new insurance and would gradually wind down the business, so no new policies were written since january 26th for anyone

yesterday, they obviously realised that there was not enough money for an orderly wind down and called in liquidators. The reports don't suggest that there is no money, just not enough to fulfill all claims they would normally expect. Website says cover is still in force, but full payout can;t be guaranteed if a claim arises.



as for the eejit saying he will drive with no insurance, well, there's always one!

bagofweasels

skelligs wrote: »

setanta announced in january that they were not writing any new insurance and would gradually wind down the business, so no new policies were written since january for anyone

yesterday, they obviously realised that there was not enough money for an orderly wind down and called in liquidators.

Didn't know that - I guess we were just lucky with the way our renewal date fell.

P. Breathnach

Just musing (and hoping)...

Suppose somebody chose to drive uninsured for a period of months until he has somehow unilaterally put the world to rights. What happens when he then seeks insurance? Has he blown away his NCB?

Oryx

Why is this treated differently to normal retail consumer law, where the contract for a purchase lies with the retailer? How does a brokers business model differ?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

larry obrien

Oryx wrote: »

Why is this treated differently to normal retail consumer law, where the contract for a purchase lies with the retailer? How does a brokers business model differ?

My point entirely. Why should I go after a hopeless chase to Setanta when seeking a refund from the broker is the easiest option. What does the law state?

P. Breathnach

Oryx wrote: »

Why is this treated differently to normal retail consumer law, where the contract for a purchase lies with the retailer? How does a brokers business model differ?

Insurance is not an ordinary retail product. A broker is not a retailer, but an agent. An agent acts on behalf of another person, and can make bind that other person to a contract.

So when I purchase my insurance with the aid of a broker, the broker is arranging a contract of insurance between me and the insurance company.

amdublin

Oryx wrote: »

Why is this treated differently to normal retail consumer law, where the contract for a purchase lies with the retailer? How does a brokers business model differ?

A broker is not a retailer. (s)he is an intermediary. You are buying the "product" from the insurance company.

amdublin

larry obrien wrote: »

My point entirely. Why should I go after a hopeless chase to Setanta when seeking a refund from the broker is the easiest option. What does the law state?

It's not easiest if it is wrong.

Five Lamps

Stinicker wrote: »

I am not OK with everyone being out of pocket but I don't see why the customers of Setanta should have to pickup the tab, the Government is responsible for this by failing to regulate.

But they have regulated by stopping them trading? What else can they do. There is only so much a regulator can do - they are not checking on financial services companies on a day to day basis. The onus is on you to check out who you are dealing with.

Oryx

Five Lamps wrote: »

But they have regulated by stopping them trading? What else can they do. There is only so much a regulator can do - they are not checking on financial services companies on a day to day basis. The onus is on you to check out who you are dealing with.

Unfortunately most people trust their broker to do that for them.

larry obrien

Ok, so I call a broker. I dont give damn what Insurance company I use, his job is to find the best product for my needs. He gives me a quote, which includes his commision from the insurance company. His commision is not disclosed to me and I hand my money in full to him. Regardless of some small print on his invoice, surely he is employed indirectly by Setanta and therefore would have some liability?

Cabaal

larry obrien wrote: »

Ok, so I call a broker. I dont give damn what Insurance company I use, his job is to find the best product for my needs. He gives me a quote, which includes his commision from the insurance company. His commision is not disclosed to me and I hand my money in full to him. Regardless of some small print on his invoice, surely he is employed indirectly by Setanta and therefore would have some liability?

But you agree to the insurance company's Terms & Conditions, not the brokers.

In addition any information you supply goes to the broker and that actually insurance is provided by the insurance company....not the broker.

The commission is paid to the broker for a service and that service is merely to find a cheap insurance quote, nothing stopping you doing this yourself....only that your too lazy to do the leg work.

If you don't like the idea of a broker, then simply don't use one

oldyouth

larry obrien wrote: »

Ok, so I call a broker. I dont give damn what Insurance company I use, his job is to find the best product for my needs. He gives me a quote, which includes his commision from the insurance company. His commision is not disclosed to me and I hand my money in full to him. Regardless of some small print on his invoice, surely he is employed indirectly by Setanta and therefore would have some liability?

You've contradicted yourself there.

Anyway, the broker is acting on YOUR behalf, not the insurers. If you check your paperwork, you will find that you have been charged a brokerage fee for the service he has undertaken for YOU. The insurer pays a commission to the broker for introducing you as a client to their company. Your contract is with the insurer

dudara

Setanta were not regulated by Irish authorities, but instead by the Maltese regulator. Under EU law, they were allowed trade here (which they did exclusively to the best of my knowledge).

BazzaDP

dudara wrote: »

Setanta were not regulated by Irish authorities, but instead by the Maltese regulator. Under EU law, they were allowed trade here (which they did exclusively to the best of my knowledge).

Not sure that's true. From the bottom of their web page:

"Setanta Insurance Company Limited is authorised by the Malta Financial Services Authority in Malta and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. Company Registration No. 41670"

Jim2007

BazzaDP wrote: »

Not sure that's true. From the bottom of their web page:

"Setanta Insurance Company Limited is authorised by the Malta Financial Services Authority in Malta and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. Company Registration No. 41670"

Yes, but as they say the devil is in the detail! The level of supervision is much more limited when the company is authorized outside the state.

Jim2007

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Being covered by an insolvent company is about as useful as a chocolate teapot! If anything goes wrong, you are still liable for any damaged caused to the full extent of your assets, if the insurer can not pay. The whole purpose of taking out insurance was to limit your liability to the premium - so a total fail.

BuffyBot

Folks. I've just had to clean an awful lot of idiocy from this thread. Remember, report a problematic post, don't reply to it.

Five Lamps

BazzaDP wrote: »

Not sure that's true. From the bottom of their web page:

"Setanta Insurance Company Limited is authorised by the Malta Financial Services Authority in Malta and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. Company Registration No. 41670"

They are only regulated for conduct in Ireland i.e. how they behave and market themselves. The Maltese authorities are the primary regulator.

Mo60

skelligs wrote: »

setanta announced in january (jan 26th) that they were not writing any new insurance and would gradually wind down the business, so no new policies were written since january 26th for anyone

Setanta were still renewing policies after this date. I renewed a policy at the beginning of last month.

On another point, if payment was made with a bank debit card, could a claim be made for a refund?

Henry Ford III

This came up somewhere else but surely a broker should have taken some recognisance of Setanta's (or any other insurer they might recommend) likely claims paying abilities?

Jim2007

Henry Ford III wrote: »

This came up somewhere else but surely a broker should have taken some recognisance of Setanta's (or any other insurer they might recommend) likely claims paying abilities?

And how would you expect him to figure that one out? Brokers have no more access to company internals that you or I, so apart from checking that the insurer is properly regulated there is nothing more that can be done.

Henry Ford III

Jim2007 wrote: »

And how would you expect him to figure that one out? Brokers have no more access to company internals that you or I, so apart from checking that the insurer is properly regulated there is nothing more that can be done.

I work in the insurance sector and Brokers should have a resonable level of knowledge concernings insurers they recommend to their clients.

The basis of recommendation should include an analysis of claims paying ability.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Jim2007

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The basis of recommendation should include an analysis of claims paying ability.

And exactly where would you find this data? This would be highly sensitive data and I would be very interested in where you'd expect average Joe Broker to get his hands on it????

Henry Ford III

Jim2007 wrote: »

And exactly where would you find this data? This would be highly sensitive data and I would be very interested in where you'd expect average Joe Broker to get his hands on it????

In my experience that sort of information is actually actively used by insurers.

Credit ratings and accounts are easily accessible for insurers.

oldyouth

Henry Ford III wrote: »

In my experience that sort of information is actually actively used by insurers.

Credit ratings and accounts are easily accessible for insurers.

And for brokers????

Henry Ford III

oldyouth wrote: »

And for brokers????

Brokers have plenty of access to the financial information of their product suppliers.

amdublin

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Brokers have plenty of access to the financial information of their product suppliers.

No they don't.

If they did, then yes why would they place business with that company.

They don't.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Henry Ford III

amdublin wrote: »

No they don't.

If they did, then yes why would they place business with that company.

They don't.

Sorry but they do. I work in the business and that sort of data is readily accessible.

I won't post anything financially sensitive here, but even for a consumers without specialist access....

http://www.irishlifegroup.ie/financi...t-ratings.aspx

Took 10 seconds to find. Just an example.

amdublin

That link doesn't work for me.

oldyouth

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Sorry but they do. I work in the business and that sort of data is readily accessible.

I won't post anything financially sensitive here, but even for a consumers without specialist access....

http://www.irishlifegroup.ie/financi...t-ratings.aspx

Took 10 seconds to find. Just an example.

Link doesn't work for me either. As an exercise, will you post up the recent financials for any 3 general insurers?

peteb2

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Sorry but they do. I work in the business and that sort of data is readily accessible..

Whats "the business"?

downonthefarm

The best you can expect is to be put on a list of creditors.
Maybe you will get some or all of it back down the line
AFAIK the broker has no liability

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

bertie 56

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Better than this, the broker won 2 commissions this year !
The first one selling you the Setanta , and because Setanta got broke and you need an insurance for your car, you'll get a second one ! Bingo !

I was talking with my broker today, and the old boss was asking me
" Are you here for Setanta ? That's tragic, no ? "

For who ???

The brokers/others insurance companies are selling massive amounts of contracts these days, just imagine, 75.000 new contracts in a week !
Without loosing nothing themselves ...

Yes, tragic !... what a joke...

oldyouth

bertie 56 wrote: »

The brokers/others insurance companies are selling massive amounts of contracts these days, just imagine, 75.000 new contracts in a week !
Without loosing nothing themselves ...

Yes, tragic !... what a joke...

From a brokers point of view, the average take on a policy would be €40. So 75,000 x €40 = €3m, which is a lot of money. However if you consider that there are over 500 member brokers of the Irish Brokers Association. That works out at an average of €6k a firm.

Nearly every broker has staff working overtime to cater for the clients that need new policies, so trust me, they too wish this had never happened

Jim2007

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I work in the insurance sector and Brokers should have a resonable level of knowledge concernings insurers they recommend to their clients.

The basis of recommendation should include an analysis of claims paying ability.

You have now made the same statement twice without providing any basis for it other that here say.... Which is useless when it comes to holding a broker or anyone else for that matter responsible.

I would be very interested in hearing of any insurers that provide factual data of this type to brokers or anyone else for that matter. It is very sensitive data and the provision of such data would most likely contravene the DPA to begin with.

3DataModem

Henry Ford III wrote: »

This came up somewhere else but surely a broker should have taken some recognisance of Setanta's (or any other insurer they might recommend) likely claims paying abilities?

Yes, in theory a chargeback should be possible for "non delivery of service"