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Aerated blocks, what You think?

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    #32
    Handsandtools
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Handsandtools


    BryanF wrote: »
    just to recap, as Handsandtools is asking one question a number of ways:
    [/LIST]
    will we ever see an aerated wall(no cavity wall and no insulation) with approval for the Irish climate?RH & weather conditions in Ireland are very different to those on the continent.


    the idea of aerated walls (no cavity wall and no insulation) remaining dry in an Irish climate. consider weather proofing: absorption / adsorption leading to higher moisture content.



    where I've seen this product used in Germany, Netherlands & UK, there was an outer brick face or some other element in the wall build-up -it didnt seem to be a 500mm aerated block wall only?



    similar clay products like Poroton didn't really catch on here during the boom: are we brainwashed by the concrete federation? do we fear the big bad wolf blowing our house down? is a concrete home a better built home? are we just suckers for a good add campaign considering 4million + of our ancestors lived in cobs homes less than 100years ago? what are the co2 emissions for a 500mm aerated concrete block wall, when compared to say a 150mm aerated block with 150mm EPS out side it?



    please put in the values after your figures thanks. w/m2k or w/mk?
    At first, cavity walls are good for moist to be trapped in and reason for mold etc.
    Solution for keep it dry is plaster, similar as concrete additives, there's many different plasters for different climate, Norway is worse than Ireland that way. Other solutions can be cladding, decorative panels etc.
    Using 150mm blocks and external insulation can be an option, but costs of insulation and proper way of fitting it is very important, because it can be damaged by fire and cause walls to ''sweat''. I think the costs of block+ insulation can be high and hard to control quality of the job.


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    #33
    Handsandtools
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Handsandtools


    galwaytt wrote: »
    I won't tell you you're wrong, because you may not be: but as Bryan points out below, there is a reason why cavity construction (whether in masonry, timber, metal or other...) is standard here: it's to do with rain and dampness penetration here. That and the wind that drives it. The DoE here have a view that the cavity ensures that if the rainscreen is penetrated -through damage, age, shrinkage/other, that a cavity provides a second line of defence. In discussion with them myself a few years ago, and concscious that people often ask if they HAVE to have a cavity on our product, the Man in the DoE told me straight up that they would would have a difficulty with non-cavity building in this country due to 'wind driven rain'. The process to prove a single leaf system would work here has not been done, and the costs and time to do so would be huge. Easier to roll with the cavity......


    How many years ago the research was done and when it was updated taking into account new building technologies and materials available?
    Construction technology still uses same old ''Home bond'' example, nothing new.
    I think it's just easy way to keep it same old.
    As You sad cavity will protect if rainscreen is penetrated, but I say that it will make You unaware of it and let You think that building is in good condition, but in reality dampness will get true and stay inside, where it will accumulate instead of drying and cause a lot of different problems as mold etc.


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    #34
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Handsandtools wrote: »
    At first, cavity walls are good for moist to be trapped in and reason for mold etc.
    Solution for keep it dry is plaster, similar as concrete additives, there's many different plasters for different climate, Norway is worse than Ireland that way. Other solutions can be cladding, decorative panels etc.
    Using 150mm blocks and external insulation can be an option, but costs of insulation and proper way of fitting it is very important, because it can be damaged by fire and cause walls to ''sweat''. I think the costs of block+ insulation can be high and hard to control quality of the job.

    Your first statement is incorrect.

    Plaster alone is not a guarantee of weatherproofing for the reasons I stated earlier: expansion/contraction, damage, shrinkage etc.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #35
    Handsandtools
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Handsandtools


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Your first statement is incorrect.

    Plaster alone is not a guarantee of weatherproofing for the reasons I stated earlier: expansion/contraction, damage, shrinkage etc.
    There's a lots of different plaster options using fiberglass mesh to reinforce it, using polymer added plasters to make them more waterproof.


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    #36
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Handsandtools wrote: »
    There's a lots of different plaster options using fiberglass mesh to reinforce it, using polymer added plasters to make them more waterproof.

    You've just admitted it: more waterproof. Which implies "degrees" of watertightness. Which is a Paradox; it's either waterproof or it's not. And you still have to allow for shrinkage and damage.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #37
    Handsandtools
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Handsandtools


    galwaytt wrote: »
    You've just admitted it: more waterproof. Which implies "degrees" of watertightness. Which is a Paradox; it's either waterproof or it's not. And you still have to allow for shrinkage and damage.
    You still can use brick or stone on the outside as well as plaster. Fiberglass mesh reinforce it and shrinkage fix same way as always ( joints etc.)
    There's a lot of options, but it looks like people here didn't like innovations, except new gadgets.
    cheap fuel times are gone and people become more aware of new technologies, so no one will buy a wet cold house on 40year mortgage.


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    #38
    Handsandtools
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Handsandtools


    I will have all technical info here soon, I'll post it for you!
    Technical analysis was done in Tallinn Technical university.


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    #39
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Handsandtools wrote: »
    You still can use brick or stone on the outside as well as plaster. Fiberglass mesh reinforce it and shrinkage fix same way as always ( joints etc.)
    There's a lot of options, but it looks like people here didn't like innovations, except new gadgets.
    cheap fuel times are gone and people become more aware of new technologies, so no one will buy a wet cold house on 40year mortgage.

    It's not about whether it's innovative or not - where I work our product is innovative too.

    But in the reality of house building there are regulations, warranty's and insurance issues which have to be met.

    It doesn't matter how good it is if, at the end of the day, say, an insurance company - or now, a building control officer - won't sign it off. It's not a reflection necessarily of the product's technical capabilities.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #40
    Handsandtools
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Handsandtools


    galwaytt wrote: »
    It's not about whether it's innovative or not - where I work our product is innovative too.

    But in the reality of house building there are regulations, warranty's and insurance issues which have to be met.

    It doesn't matter how good it is if, at the end of the day, say, an insurance company - or now, a building control officer - won't sign it off. It's not a reflection necessarily of the product's technical capabilities.
    So you say it's up to individual who sign it off. If he/she didn't like it that's it?
    I'm more convinced it's up to standard and requirement not up to individual!


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    #41
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    'No cavity wall and no insulation wall'
    Handsandtools wrote: »
    So you say it's up to individual who sign it off. If he/she didn't like it that's it?
    I'm more convinced it's up to standard and requirement not up to individual!
    Have you an Irish/ uk standard you can refer us to or European EC certificate you can refer me to? If its a Bba type cert specific to a product maybe you could PM me?


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    #42
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Handsandtools wrote: »
    So you say it's up to individual who sign it off. If he/she didn't like it that's it?
    I'm more convinced it's up to standard and requirement not up to individual!

    No; that's not what I'm saying.

    What I'm saying is: who will forward a mortgage or offer home insurance on it ?

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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