Extremist Takeover of Birmingham Schools?

wendell borton

An allegation that schools in Muslim majority areas of Birmingham are being taken over by extremists is under investigation by the dept. of educations extremist unit and west midlands police counter terrorism unit.

Really scary stuff to think extremists should be able to infiltrate schools to indoctrinate kids. Hopefully we'll learn from Britain's mistakes in our current process of moving away from denominational patronage schools here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-26482599

Canis Lupus

wendell borton wrote: »

An allegation that schools in Muslim majority areas of Birmingham are being taken over by extremists is under investigation by the dept. of educations extremist unit and west midlands police counter terrorism unit.

Really scary stuff to think extremists should be able to infiltrate schools to indoctrinate kids. Hopefully we'll learn from Britain's mistakes in our current process of moving away from denominational patronage schools here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-26482599

Pfft... it's not even 'extremism' that's the concern when it comes to these kind of schools..

EDIT: actually don't watch this entire vid... it's the first minute that's important... I just grabbed it quickly from youtube. Looks like i's actually a video trying to prove the 'fact' that salt and fresh don't mix.

sillyoulfool

Schools in religious indoctrination shocker!!!!
That's right folks 95% of Irish kids go to a religious primary school.

Antar Bolaeisk

Bit out of date, here's one from yesterday:

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-27024881

They are taking it seriously but they don't seem to have uncovered anything untoward just yet. Could just be a bit of scaremongering.

steddyeddy

I hope in the name of all that's good the person in that video who believed salt and sea water don't mix because it's in the Koran didn't become a doctor.

Sunglasses Ron

sillyoulfool wrote: »

Schools in religious indoctrination shocker!!!!
That's right folks 95% of Irish kids go to a religious primary school.

Do you think the typical Irish school religion teacher is as extremist as the ones being investigated in Birmingham? I would wager that the vast majority of them under 50 don't even go to mass themselves.

Lapin

Religion in schools is a form of child abuse and neglect.

All religions should be removed from the education system.

If parents want their children to adopt their own beliefs, let them go about it themselves.

Schools should not be used as factories for the values of different creeds.

mike65

Get religion out of schools - that's what churches are for.

The_Valeyard

Lapin wrote: »

Religion in schools is a form of child abuse and neglect.

All religions should be removed from the education system.

If parents want their children to adopt their own beliefs, let them go about it themselves.

Schools should not be used as factories for the values of different creeds.

Child abuse?

Bit of an over reaction me thinks.

wendell borton

wendell borton wrote: »

Really scary stuff to think extremists should be able to infiltrate schools to indoctrinate kids.

We have those pure heart abstinence fcukers infiltrating our schools without parental knowledge or consent and even principals apparently can't stop it
So ... yeah
It's all very scary

eviltwin

There should be no religion of any kind in schools, we can't stop people of faith telling their kids rubbish at home or in sunday schools but the state should not be complicit in it.

Lapin

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Child abuse?

Bit of an over reaction me thinks.

So telling young children they will burn in hell if they don't adhere to the doctrines srt down by whatever church you believe in isn't messing with their heads then?

If infusing a child with a forced belief from a young age to the point where everyday decisions they make in later life are predicated on whether their God approves isn't a form of abuse, then the bar is set very low indeed.

dilallio

Replacing all the "Dora the Explorer" books with "Doda the Exploder" is a bit much ...

Sunglasses Ron

Lapin wrote: »

So telling young children they will burn in hell if they don't adhere to the doctrines srt down by whatever church you believe in isn't messing with their heads then?

.

I never, in all my years, heard of burning in hell for anything when I was in school Do the Catholic church even still promote the idea of hell? I have a feeling that went out with the modernizing in the 60's (permitting eating meat on Fridays, ending Latin mass, all that)

Smiles35

A letter detailing the plan, known as "Operation Trojan Horse", claims responsibility for leadership changes at four schools.

Who dubbed it that?

FTA69

I think the French have the right idea, have a single state-school system based on secular values. If people want to inculcate religious values in their children then they can do so at home. I work in a majority Muslim area and most parents send their children to normal state schools and are perfectly content to do so. There is absolutely no contradiction between this and them practicing their Islamic faith. Many of the specifically Muslim schools however, spend disproportionate amounts of time on religious education which in my opinion would detract from studying the actual curriculum.

Lapin

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

I never, in all my years, heard of burning in hell for anything when I was in school

I was reminded of the fires of hell on a daily basis in first class (holy communion year) at school. Early 80's.

Sunglasses Ron

Lapin wrote: »

I was reminded of the fires of hell on a daily basis in first class (holy communion year) at school. Early 80's.

It probably depended on the teacher.

Given the vast majority of the current body of teaching staff were born between 1960 and 1991 (not to mention the older ones than that were in college at the height of late 60's counter- culture, or at least what small amount of it reached 3rd level institutions in Ireland) I reckon the days of this type of talk have been gone for some years almost universally.

Lapin

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

It probably depended on the teacher.

Given the vast majority of the current body of teaching staff were born between 1960 and 1991 (not to mention the older ones than that were in college at the height of late 60's counter- culture, or at least what small amount of it reached 3rd level institutions in Ireland) I reckon the days of this type of talk have been gone for some years almost universally.

Still doesn't detract from my opinion that religion should have no place in schools.

ProfessorPlum

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

It probably depended on the teacher.

Given the vast majority of the current body of teaching staff were born between 1960 and 1991 (not to mention the older ones than that were in college at the height of late 60's counter- culture, or at least what small amount of it reached 3rd level institutions in Ireland) I reckon the days of this type of talk have been gone for some years almost universally.

I would hope so, but surely we shouldn't have to rely on hope when it comes to our kids being exposed to that kind of ****e? Or the modern maybe less graphic form of it.

Ray Palmer

sillyoulfool wrote: »

Schools in religious indoctrination shocker!!!!
That's right folks 95% of Irish kids go to a religious primary school.

I think part of the issue is these are public non-religious schools to start with. The inclusion plan for faiths to be part of the school management is being distorted. It is all a little shocking when you read about the teachers in these schools are being forced out and non qualified "teachers" are being brought in .

What is disturbing is the lack of observation on what is going on means some damage is already done and difficult to deal with now. I can see why nobody would suspect this as an outcome when trying to be inclusive.

Very damaging as it feeds racist views.

cashback

Lapin wrote: »

I was reminded of the fires of hell on a daily basis in first class (holy communion year) at school. Early 80's.

Me too, in the late 80's. Was constantly reassured that despite what our parents might say, hell did exist and that the world would end someday. This was junior infants.

brummytom

The problem on this thread is that people are talking about religious schools. The issue in Birmingham is state (secular) schools being overrun with Muslim/Islamist governors, and in turn, staff.

Making veils part of a state school uniform, and having a call to prayer, is completely alienating to those of other, or no, religions.

I don't have a problem with Muslim schools, but the idea of supposedly non-denominational schools being gradually 'turned' Muslim from the inside is worrying.

Artful_Badger

FTA69 wrote: »

I think the French have the right idea, have a single state-school system based on secular values. If people want to inculcate religious values in their children then they can do so at home. I work in a majority Muslim area and most parents send their children to normal state schools and are perfectly content to do so. There is absolutely no contradiction between this and them practicing their Islamic faith. Many of the specifically Muslim schools however, spend disproportionate amounts of time on religious education which in my opinion would detract from studying the actual curriculum.

And the word of the day people is inculcate .

inculcate

verb
1.
instil (an idea, attitude, or habit) by persistent instruction.
"I tried to inculcate in my pupils an attitude of enquiry"
synonyms: instil, implant, fix, ingrain, infuse, impress, imprint, introduce

holystungun9

Noblong wrote: »

A letter detailing the plan, known as "Operation Trojan Horse", claims responsibility for leadership changes at four schools.

Who dubbed it that?

How about Operation Middle-Eastern Camel instead?

FTA69

Artful_Badger wrote: »

And the word of the day people is inculcate .

I've got those dope moves 'yo.

the_monkey

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Child abuse?

Bit of an over reaction me thinks.

Nope , it's spot on .

Look at all the fundamentalists in the world today - they are like this because of the brainwashing they had as kids.

To lie to a kid like that is criminal , their minds are extemely impressionable, and it's pure abuse that adults do this - how many people who grow up secular actually "find religion" in their adulthood ? - very few.

jjdub1

Not surprised given the area. I had the great 'pleasure' to live in Saltley when at college years ago. It was a favourite pastime of the residents to empty their bins onto the streets on Sundays just to give us a sense of who runs the place.
A bigger kip would be hard to find - surprised it has taken them so long to establish their madrasas.

SeanW

I'm surprised a certain poster hasn't been in to try and make this look like nothing while accusing everyone of "Islamophobia."

Hell Ram

The 'teach religion at home' argument is somewhat flawed, because the child will only learn whatever faith their parents may be interested in.

I know kids who attend religion in secondary school and the curriculum has vastly changed. For one, their taught about all religions, their origins, ideals etc.

This IS giving kids a better opportunity to decide whether or not they want it in their lives.

As well as that, they're learning to be more culturally aware.

As a non-religious person, I'd have no problem with my child having the opportunity to learn about different cultures and religions. It has a place. Our history is littered with it.

Hell Ram

the_monkey wrote: »

Nope , it's spot on .

Look at all the fundamentalists in the world today - they are like this because of the brainwashing they had as kids.

To lie to a kid like that is criminal , their minds are extemely impressionable, and it's pure abuse that adults do this - how many people who grow up secular actually "find religion" in their adulthood ? - very few.

Hmmm. I don't know anyone, nor have I met anyone who's a religious fundamentalist from attending school in Ireland, do you?

Do you feel you were abused as a child? I don't. Religion served to illustrate the teachings of your parents to a certain degree, ie. right from wrong.

Yes, there was God, sin, damnation, but did I ever feel threatened? No. Again, I don't know anyone who did.

If you're of the opinion it doesn't belong in school then fine, but to say it's abuse is ridiculous. Would it be also abuse if a parent taught their child Catholic values after school? Because essentially, according to your logic, it would be.

My name is URL

The Department for Education's (DfE) Extremist Unit

The idea of such a unit existing gave me a giggle at first, but it doesn't really say a whole lot of good about the situation in certain parts of the UK that it needs to exist.

Smiles35

SeanW wrote: »

I'm surprised a certain poster hasn't been in to try and make this look like nothing while accusing everyone of "Islamophobia."

Yeah. While you wait for that poster I'll stop and point at you standing beside a letter written by a 17 year old athiest. :pac:

SeanW

Noblong wrote: »

Yeah. While you wait for that poster I'll stop and point at you standing beside a letter written by a 17 year old athiest. :pac:

No offense mate but what the hell are you on about?

Smiles35

SeanW wrote: »

No offense mate but what the hell are you on about?

Do you believe the letter known as 'Operation Trojan Horse' is a real document by British Muslims or not?

WilyCoyote

Give them a one way to Allahbachistan. No ifs or buts. If they refuse to assimilate - out!
The world is belong to everybody - not just religious nutters.
But if you need a decent Balti ....... Brum is the place to go.

Stavros Murphy

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Give them a one way to Allahbachistan. No ifs or buts. If they refuse to assimilate - out!
The world is belong to everybody - not just religious nutters.
But if you need a decent Balti ....... Brum is the place to go.

They assimilate, just not in the way you're thinking. Think Borg. I hear the cries of "Rubbish!" already. Give it time..

darkpagandeath

I cant see this ending well... But I agree Religion has no place in Schools any of them in this day and age. If they introduced Religion class for example in Transition Year that would be ok. To learn about different Religions (all the major ones). As most people would have been from a small child Receiving the beliefs and chosen Religion from the parents. There is no reason for people to be saying “The children need to learn about their Religion” That's what the parents are for and their Religious place of worship and so on. If anyone is interested about there’s or other Religions I'm sure the Relevant order/group or books can help with that. Before Transition year maybe some kind of cultural class to learn the basics of cultures and beliefs nothing to major.

the_monkey

Hell Ram wrote: »

The 'teach religion at home' argument is somewhat flawed, because the child will only learn whatever faith their parents may be interested in.

I know kids who attend religion in secondary school and the curriculum has vastly changed. For one, their taught about all religions, their origins, ideals etc.

This IS giving kids a better opportunity to decide whether or not they want it in their lives.

As well as that, they're learning to be more culturally aware.

As a non-religious person, I'd have no problem with my child having the opportunity to learn about different cultures and religions. It has a place. Our history is littered with it.

This is ok , even Dawkins agrees with this - kids should be taught about
all different religions and their histories etc ...


what shouldn't be done is indoctrination ... telling the child they are a catholic/muslim/jew/hinduu/pastafarian .... and this is your belief system ... and this is true (despite their being absolutely 0 evidence for it) - we encourage no thinking - just accept things as faith ....


This is abuse .

the_monkey

Hell Ram wrote: »

Hmmm. I don't know anyone, nor have I met anyone who's a religious fundamentalist from attending school in Ireland, do you?

Do you feel you were abused as a child? I don't. Religion served to illustrate the teachings of your parents to a certain degree, ie. right from wrong.

Yes, there was God, sin, damnation, but did I ever feel threatened? No. Again, I don't know anyone who did.

If you're of the opinion it doesn't belong in school then fine, but to say it's abuse is ridiculous. Would it be also abuse if a parent taught their child Catholic values after school? Because essentially, according to your logic, it would be.

Sure , good point, but I still think it's not healthy, it can give people shíte
ideas for the rest of their lives - they might tend to believe in Astrology or
homepathy (sp) cos of this encouragement to believe in "something else" "Greater" then Science and Reason ...

When I was about 7/8 for 6 months or so in school we had a sub teacher
while the main teacher was sick, and she was an owl religious bat that rabbited on all day about Bible stories and did almost nothing of the other subjects ... this is an extreme case I know, but it had to effect some of us ..

Sand

The usage of "Operation Trojan Horse" doesn't sit right with me. The concept of "Trojan Horse" comes from a Judeo Christian cultural background - i.e western. Wouldn't Islamic extremists be referencing Islamic or Arabic cultural memes in their names for their own schemes? Islamic extremism is rooted in an alienation from and rejection of western society.

There might be a real problem here, but the use of the odd "Operation" name make me suspect there is a hoax or a crank involved as well - a school in a predominantly Muslim area is going to reflect Islamic values to a certain extent even without any plot. So long as it doesn't breach any red lines...so what?

darkpagandeath

Sand wrote: »

The usage of "Operation Trojan Horse" doesn't sit right with me. The concept of "Trojan Horse" comes from a Judeo Christian cultural background - i.e western. Wouldn't Islamic extremists be referencing Islamic or Arabic cultural memes in their names for their own schemes? Islamic extremism is rooted in an alienation from and rejection of western society.

There might be a real problem here, but the use of the odd "Operation" name make me suspect there is a hoax or a crank involved as well - a school in a predominantly Muslim area is going to reflect Islamic values to a certain extent even without any plot. So long as it doesn't breach any red lines...so what?

Could it not be a direct translation from another language to English ? best guess or put in a way it can be understood in English

Sand

I wouldn't say so - Trojan Horse makes about as much sense as "daft as a brush". Neither would be directly translatable. It only makes sense if you can draw on cultural knowledge so the Trojan War (or the well known daftness of brushes) would resonate with you.

darkpagandeath

Sand wrote: »

I wouldn't say so - Trojan Horse makes about as much sense as "daft as a brush". Neither would be directly translatable. It only makes sense if you can draw on cultural knowledge so the Trojan War (or the well known daftness of brushes) would resonate with you.

Exactly Operation (Made up) direct translation "Stay inside take from inside" Prob don't sound as good

deseil

Lapin wrote: »

So telling young children they will burn in hell if they don't adhere to the doctrines[/B] srt down by whatever church you believe in isn't messing with their heads then?

If infusing a child with a forced belief from a young age to the point where everyday decisions they make in later life are predicated on whether their God approves isn't a form of abuse, then the bar is set very low indeed.

Ah for god sake,I went to R.C Primary school in the 80s and I never heard the words "you will burn in hell if....." (and I was a very bold kid) But seriously the only religious stories I remember were about zachaus or whatever his name was...parables I think they were called.Times have moved on even since then, they just try and give them a base for being good and nice to each other and call it Catholic, they dont teach the rosary or the Cathicism and they certainly dont scare the bejasus out of the kids.

Smiles35

Sand wrote: »

I wouldn't say so - Trojan Horse makes about as much sense as "daft as a brush". Neither would be directly translatable. It only makes sense if you can draw on cultural knowledge so the Trojan War (or the well known daftness of brushes) would resonate with you.

Really gets my goat that people find it acceptable to let blatant us'vs'them' stuff like that go around instead of trying to influence houseing or immigration policy if they have a problem with people that have been living there over 50 years. :mad:

Smiles35

SeanW wrote: »

No offense mate but what the hell are you on about?

Hi, Sean. Just wondering if I should feel offended now you've ignored my question? Or just dirty for talking with you at all.

SeanW

Noblong wrote: »

Hi, Sean. Just wondering if I should feel offended now you've ignored my question? Or just dirty for talking with you at all.

Wow, 6 hours ...

In answer to your question, obviously I can't say with 100% certainty that the letter is real. Noone can except its original author. I have less doubts about the plot however.

The only question in my mind is whether or not the Islamofascists would be stupid enough to commit this plan to paper such as to allow it to be eventually made public, that would be my only doubt. Wahhabists and their ilk etc may be insane fruitcakes hell bent on re-orienting the world around Mecca and dragging us all back to the Dark Ages, but - for the most - part I assume they're not stupid.

You seem to be sure that it was written by "a 17 year old atheist ..." perhaps you could clarify? Provide proof?

Smiles35

SeanW wrote: »

Wow, 6 hours ...

In answer to your question, obviously I can't say with 100% certainty that the letter is real. Noone can except its original author. I have less doubts about the plot however.

The only question in my mind is whether or not the Islamofascists would be stupid enough to commit this plan to paper such as to allow it to be eventually made public, that would be my only doubt. Wahhabist muslims etc may be insane fruitcakes hell bent on re-orienting the world around Mecca and dragging us all back to the Dark Ages, but - for the most - part I assume they're not stupid.

You seem to be sure that it was written by "a 17 year old atheist ..." perhaps you could clarify? Provide proof?

We all know the Wahhabist Muslims want re-orienting of the world around Mecca, only 17yo Athiests think we don't know, hence my assertion. The only question is are they stupid enough to try and convert English schools fully to that goal? One by one? Yeah right. It's a money/employment scam at most. That letter is bad juju, and will linger on.

Femme_Fatale

I was in primary school up to the early 90s and was not told I'd be going to hell. To call religion in schools child abuse, even if I don't agree with religion in schools, is insulting to victims of child abuse.

darkpagandeath

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I was in primary school up to the early 90s and was not told I'd be going to hell. To call religion in schools child abuse, even if I don't agree with religion in schools, is insulting to victims of child abuse.

Catholic Church schools I'm not sure did they not have some kind of abuse cases recently ?