Alfa 159 replacement

legomanx51v

So my 159 crapped out its gearbox just as I joined a motorway. Sounded like metal came out from under the car, metallic scraping in nearly all gears. Took off the next exit and saw fluid leaking from the bottom. Lovely. 1.9 diesel at 80k miles. Lovely.

So I'm looking for a new car, don't want to invest a big repair into it. It took me a long time to come around to this decision as I've become very attached to the looks and feel of the alfa.
My thoughts are:
Bmw e92 coupe 320i or 320d
Bmw f10 520d
Lexus is250
Jaguar xf 3.0d

Will hopefully test drive them over the next few days, but what are boardsies thoughts on them?
Should I get a 320 coupe in petrol or diesel?
Should I try and stick with automatics instead of manuals when it comes to bigger engines?
Fuel economy and road tax are NOT my priority (within reason). Comfort/fun to drive are!

mickdw

Of that selection, with those engines, the jag would be my choice.
Some of the petrol engined 3 series had serious issues for a few years following the introduction of efficient dynamics. I'm sure someone will have details of the years affected.

Don't go giving away the alfa for f all because of the gearbox.

RS6man

How much do you want to spend?

There's about €10k in the difference between the newest IS250 and oldest Jag XF 3.0d that you'll find for sale.

bear1

Would it not make more financial sense to just replace the box rather than going through the hassle of selling and then buying another car?
I would rather keep the Alfa and fix the box as at least then you know exactly how the car has been treated.

Irishcrx

I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions on it yet unless you wanted a new anyway, the 159 would be difficult to replace , great looking , handling cars. Driving an Alfa in a unique feeling , not a lot of cars can give you that feeling.

I'd get it down to Gerry in TI Auto's if your in Dublin , he's the best Alfa mechanic in the country and will be straight up with you about the repair ,he can source parts from the UK for you as well second hand if you wanted to go that route.

I've had my 166 in with him several times and he's just top quality mechanic and bloke. The type who can tell you something is wrong before it's even gone wrong with an Alfa.

noelf

bear1 wrote: »

Would it not make more financial sense to just replace the box rather than going through the hassle of selling and then buying another car?
I would rather keep the Alfa and fix the box as at least then you know exactly how the car has been treated.

Very low miles on car would you not at least get some idea of repair costs

NyOmnishambles

Irishcrx wrote: »

I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions on it yet unless you wanted a new anyway, the 159 would be difficult to replace , great looking , handling cars. Driving an Alfa in a unique feeling , not a lot of cars can give you that feeling.

I'd get it down to Gerry in TI Auto's if your in Dublin , he's the best Alfa mechanic in the country and will be straight up with you about the repair ,he can source parts from the UK for you as well second hand if you wanted to go that route.

I've had my 166 in with him several times and he's just top quality mechanic and bloke. The type who can tell you something is wrong before it's even gone wrong with an Alfa.

I would hugely second this

There aren't many places left around like TI Autos who will do their best to do a top quailty jjob whilst keeping the cost down for you

Though I no longer have an Alfa (but will again at some stage) I bring any car I have there as you can't beat having trust in a mechanic

Very nice guys who do great work

That aside if you do fancy a change I would go for the Jag, it is a bit more special than the others listed imo

Moneymaker

TI's reputation is part of the reason my next car will be an Alfa, they live nearby and lads I know with Alfas say they are superb.

So yeah, take it up to them and see whats what.

If your heart is set on changing then Jag all the way. Nothing quite like a Jag.

bear1

Gerrys is sworn by in the Alfa community.. bring it to him for evaluation.
I mean to get rid of a min 2006 159 JTD merely cause the box has gone isn't a good idea unless it has a tonne of other problems.
Boxes can be gotten at fair price in the UK and if I'm right they are the same box as used in the Vectras

kooga

keep the 159................i was fortunate enough to have at my disposal a LHD 159 q4 estate a few years back, had the car for 18 months when i worked in germany. had a couple of 147s as well...........your 159 doesn't deserve to be abandoned.

H3llR4iser

Get a quote for the repair on the 159, you listed a few possible "replacements" which differ quite a bit from each other - which I take as a sign of not being too sure about what to do.

Have a look on PartFinder.ie, you might be able to get the 'box somewhere around Dublin, if you want to go for a second hand one; It should be a GM M32 box, which was developed jointly by Fiat and GM and should be shared between a few Alfa/Fiat/Lancia/Open and Chevrolet models.
I am not 100% sure of this, but as far as I remember the 1.9 JTDm, 1.9 JTS and 2.2 JTS versions of the 159 an Brera all used the same M32, so any of them might be able to provide a replacement box.

MuppetCheck

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Get a quote for the repair on the 159, you listed a few possible "replacements" which differ quite a bit from each other - which I take as a sign of not being too sure about what to do.

Have a look on PartFinder.ie, you might be able to get the 'box somewhere around Dublin, if you want to go for a second hand one; It should be a GM M32 box, which was developed jointly by Fiat and GM and should be shared between a few Alfa/Fiat/Lancia/Open and Chevrolet models.
I am not 100% sure of this, but as far as I remember the 1.9 JTDm, 1.9 JTS and 2.2 JTS versions of the 159 an Brera all used the same M32, so any of them might be able to provide a replacement box.

I'd agree but the only thing I would say is that box fails on a lot of cars. Tread carefully when selecting the replacement.

road_high

Gearbox failure is pretty common on all makes. My ma's Civic's gearbox went ffs! Got it replaced and it wracked up another 80k and still going strong with the next owner.
If the car is reliable otherwise then it makes no sense to ditch her over this.

bazz26

Get a reconditioned gearbox over a second hand one from a breakers that could fail on you a week later.

If you just want a new car then the Jaguar XF is the best of that bunch imo. Starting to look at these myself.

quadrifoglio verde

The former parts man in O Donoghues has set up a breakers, he's fairly well regarded in both the Lancia (anyone that has an Aurelia would be) and Alfa scene in Ireland.

As far as i know he has a few 159s in there. Discount spare parts is the company name.
If theres anyone who knows anything about alfas in this country its him.
Id agree with others about keeping the 159. I know with my own 916, the quote from Ti to replace the gearbox was about 500. But the 916 is a **** to work on.

bear1

bazz26 wrote: »

Get a reconditioned gearbox over a second hand one from a breakers that could fail on you a week later.

If you just want a new car then the Jaguar XF is the best of that bunch imo. Starting to look at these myself.

Get one from a reputable seller with a guarantee and have it fitted by Ti's and you are in safe hands.
No guarantee a newer car will be reliable.

bazz26

You are preaching to the converted here but sometimes people just like a change of car and any reason will do.

bear1

bazz26 wrote: »

You are preaching to the converted here but sometimes people just like a change of car and any reason will do.

Didn't mean to sound pushy
I'm an Alfa nut and the idea of throwing a 159 away cause of a gearbox is a bit out of my world to be honest.
If the OP seriously wants a change of car, then fix the box and flog it - you will get much more when it comes to price.
What do you have yourself Bazz?

ba_barabus

bazz26 wrote: »

You are preaching to the converted here but sometimes people just like a change of car and any reason will do.

I'd agree. A change can be nice.

bazz26

bear1 wrote: »

Didn't mean to sound pushy
I'm an Alfa nut and the idea of throwing a 159 away cause of a gearbox is a bit out of my world to be honest.
If the OP seriously wants a change of car, then fix the box and flog it - you will get much more when it comes to price.
What do you have yourself Bazz?

A Passat CC.

legomanx51v

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Get a quote for the repair on the 159, you listed a few possible "replacements" which differ quite a bit from each other - which I take as a sign of not being too sure about what to do.

I've got 3 unwritten quotes, all from various alfa specialists over the last few days. Ball park figures for gearbox are: brandnew=3000ish, reconditioned=2000ish, used off ebay=1000ish.
http://r.ebay.com/1an6LX
Labour ranging from 400-600. So the cheapest possible way of even getting it on the road requires at least 1800, and if I was keeping it thats not the way I'd want it done. I'd want a reconditioned box+clutch+dmf at the same time.
I spoke to Gerry in TI Autos myself today, he wasn't keen on repairing it at all, he was suggesting getting rid of it too.

But yes, the replacement cars are all quite different, and yes thats because I'm not quite sure what to do. Im almost, almost tempted to get another 159 :pac:

MuppetCheck wrote: »

I'd agree but the only thing I would say is that box fails on a lot of cars. Tread carefully when selecting the replacement.

Yes. This is my biggest concern. The 159 is remapped, puts even more strain on the already relatively "weak" gearbox.

bazz26 wrote: »

You are preaching to the converted here but sometimes people just like a change of car and any reason will do.

The box imploded exactly 6 days ago and my initial reaction for the first few days was to try to repair and keep it. It was the old folks advice to move to something newer that has finally made me change my mind.
The rental car I've been given is a Leon FR 2.0 diesel. nice spec but no steering feel, really limited and weak power band, harsh ride, and lots of cabin noise on motorway. Its very "clinical", I really hope a 3 series coupe or the XF don't disappoint!


When starting the thread I was basically looking for:
-suggestions for a car that will help me miss my 159 the least!
-which engine is more reliable/fun 320i petrol or 320d in the e92 coupe
-In a powerful ish engine should I try and look for an auto version or will a manual gearbox be fine? I've heard that high torque engines generally shouldn't be paired with manual gearboxes??

noelf

Well op that puts everything into perspective what would worry me is buying a luxury brand and a year later warranty cover gone and something breaks again ..

legomanx51v

Yup that worries me too.

I can't understand why gearboxes for the 159 are so much more expensive than ones I've seen for other cars. Supply and demand maybe.

bear1

Here is what I would do:

There is a user on the AlfaOwner forum called Ned Autolusso. They are based in the UK but they would be known as the Ti's of the UK.
They are fantastic to deal with and have a fantastic rep on the forum.

What I think what happened to you is the the bearing broke and punched through your gearbox which is why you would see all the gearbox oil along the road. Did you notice any whining whilst driving?
I'm not sure what box the 159 uses (M32?) so you'd need to check the condition of the clutch.

http://www.autolusso.co.uk/workshop/gearbox-rebuilds.html

http://www.autolusso.co.uk/workshop/m32-gearbox.html - gives all the info you need to know about that box.

Email Autolusso with your problem and get a quote off of them as well (You will need to ship the box to them in this scenario)

Another note, have you checked prices in NI? From reading Autolussos website the box in the 159 is the same as the CDTI Vectras so maybe in the breakers you would find cheaper boxes?

RS6man

He wants a new car!!!!!

bear1 wrote: »

Here is what I would do:

There is a user on the AlfaOwner forum called Ned Autolusso. They are based in the UK but they would be known as the Ti's of the UK.
They are fantastic to deal with and have a fantastic rep on the forum.

What I think what happened to you is the the bearing broke and punched through your gearbox which is why you would see all the gearbox oil along the road. Did you notice any whining whilst driving?
I'm not sure what box the 159 uses (M32?) so you'd need to check the condition of the clutch.

http://www.autolusso.co.uk/workshop/gearbox-rebuilds.html

http://www.autolusso.co.uk/workshop/m32-gearbox.html - gives all the info you need to know about that box.

Email Autolusso with your problem and get a quote off of them as well (You will need to ship the box to them in this scenario)

Another note, have you checked prices in NI? From reading Autolussos website the box in the 159 is the same as the CDTI Vectras so maybe in the breakers you would find cheaper boxes?

MuppetCheck

legomanx51v wrote: »

I spoke to Gerry in TI Autos myself today, he wasn't keen on repairing it at all, he was suggesting getting rid of it too.

Surprised that would be the case - surely the car is close to worthless as is? Seems drastic for a relatively fresh car.

legomanx51v wrote: »

Yes. This is my biggest concern. The 159 is remapped, puts even more strain on the already relatively "weak" gearbox.

With a used box you take your chances, with a reconditioned box or new box you will get some form of guarantee from the supplier. Not all of them fail, and apparently newer versions have slightly different internals to make sure higher up parts of the box get oil. I don't know if this version made it to the 159 or not though but it would be worth asking the question on alfaowners or the like for sure.

Is it a new FR you have been given? Surprised by the power range comment - I previously had an evolution of the 1.9's engine in my last car and there's a world of difference.

H3llR4iser

legomanx51v wrote: »

I've got 3 unwritten quotes, all from various alfa specialists over the last few days. Ball park figures for gearbox are: brandnew=3000ish, reconditioned=2000ish, used off ebay=1000ish.
http://r.ebay.com/1an6LX
Labour ranging from 400-600. So the cheapest possible way of even getting it on the road requires at least 1800, and if I was keeping it thats not the way I'd want it done. I'd want a reconditioned box+clutch+dmf at the same time.
I spoke to Gerry in TI Autos myself today, he wasn't keen on repairing it at all, he was suggesting getting rid of it too.

That's really odd...is there anything else majorly wrong with the car?

legomanx51v wrote: »

Yes. This is my biggest concern. The 159 is remapped, puts even more strain on the already relatively "weak" gearbox.

Ah...this might be your problem. See, the M32 gearbox is rated for 322nm torque, your remap might be going past that; That's the reason why the 2.4 JTDm uses the F40 gearbox instead.

legomanx51v wrote: »

-suggestions for a car that will help me miss my 159 the least!

Another 159, quite simple
However, on the ones you list, I'd go for the Jaguar...at least there aren't 10 of them parked outside any primary school in the country.

legomanx51v wrote: »

I've heard that high torque engines generally shouldn't be paired with manual gearboxes??

Eh?

Tazio

Hi OP,

M32 gearbox on the 159's is a known issue:

http://www.autolusso.co.uk/workshop/gearbox-rebuilds.html

Just had mine done at 125k miles.... just the bearings.. I caught it before it started to eat itself.

If it's just the gearbox then it would be worth it to fix and keep imo... Now, if you want a change of car and this is an excuse then I'd go for the XF hands down. Been thinking the same recently.

If you decide to keep the 159, check the sub-frame too... I bet it'll be rotten. jJst replaced mine too with a fresh one.

quadrifoglio verde

OP theres another person worth ringing called Don Baker. He specialises in Alfas as well and a decent chap to deal with. Only problem is that he's located outside of enfield, so might be difficult getting to him. He's well regarded in the Alfa community in Ireland and I've had work done by him before.
With regards to Gerry in Ti, theres a possibility that doing the gearbox for him would have taken up too much of his time. From what I've heard he's flat out at the moment.

As it is, you'll get feck all for the car if theres no box on it. The difference in selling price between the 159 with replacement gearbox and 159 with no gearbox would definitely be greater than the cost of doing the gearbox. If you are planning to change anyway and want to change, put a box on it from a breakers and don't worry about the clutch and dmf, if they're ok.

bear1

RS6man wrote: »

He wants a new car!!!!!

Yes but only because the Alfa has gone wrong.

legomanx51v

I know y'all want me to keep the alfa, repair it an get it going again, but I've sold it to someone else who is willing to do a repair job and get it back on the road.

I've been busy test driving EIGHT different cars... Things I've learned:
I hate, hate, hate automatics, and I actually prefer diesel to petrol. The torque delivery on a diesel feels more comfortable for some reason.
In order of testing:
325i e92- Did not like driving position, steering was a bit weird, engine took ages to "get going".
Jag xf 3.0d- HUGE. Really, really comfortable, tonnes of power and torque, best auto gearbox I've tried (out of three haha), no steering feel.
Is250- Worst auto gearbox, Not bad handling, power not good enough.
a5 2.0 tfsi S-line- Looks stunning, nice handling/steering. Ride quite harsh, but quiet. Petrol engine not bad.
318d e90- not as comfy as I was expecting, engine felt really loud and tractor-y in the one I tried. Steering/handling surprisingly was better than 325i???
Alfa Gulietta 1750 tbi cloverleaf- Engine is amazing, sounds lovely too. Overall interior could be slightly higher in quality and nowhere near as comfy/quiet interior as a bigger saloon.
520d f10- Very nice shape, loved the engine, though it made me want a 525d or 530d with just a smidge more power. Handled amazing, very very comfy and quiet inside.
a5 2.0tdi- NOT an s-line so normal suspension, ride much nicer but still responsive/good handling/nice steering response. 2.0tdi may be slower on paper, but is far easier/nicer to drive.

TL;DR
Audi a5 2.0 tdi (or 3.0tdi )
OR
new f10 BMW 520d (or 525d/530d)

unkel

Tough choice!

A5 is a great looking car. Best designed Audi in the last decade or so. FWD though (you don't mention quattro) but I suspect that doesn't bother you

F10 - if the car was manufactured before 01/03/2011, do not get the 520d. Quite a few of them develop timing chain problems (particularly manuals with high mileage) that will cost big bucks to fix (unless you have BMW FSH and are below 100k miles, in which case BMW will pick up all / most of the bill)

I'm not fond of any 4-pot diesel engine but the F10 520d was described by many motoring journalists as the best car in the world (for reasonable money). Get a 525d / 530d or even better, a petrol and you will not be disappointed!

noelf

legomanx51v wrote: »

I know y'all want me to keep the alfa, repair it an get it going again, but I've sold it to someone else who is willing to do a repair job and get it back on the road.

I've been busy test driving EIGHT different cars... Things I've learned:
I hate, hate, hate automatics, and I actually prefer diesel to petrol. The torque delivery on a diesel feels more comfortable for some reason.
In order of testing:
325i e92- Did not like driving position, steering was a bit weird, engine took ages to "get going".
Jag xf 3.0d- HUGE. Really, really comfortable, tonnes of power and torque, best auto gearbox I've tried (out of three haha), no steering feel.
Is250- Worst auto gearbox, Not bad handling, power not good enough.
a5 2.0 tfsi S-line- Looks stunning, nice handling/steering. Ride quite harsh, but quiet. Petrol engine not bad.
318d e90- not as comfy as I was expecting, engine felt really loud and tractor-y in the one I tried. Steering/handling surprisingly was better than 325i???
Alfa Gulietta 1750 tbi cloverleaf- Engine is amazing, sounds lovely too. Overall interior could be slightly higher in quality and nowhere near as comfy/quiet interior as a bigger saloon.
520d f10- Very nice shape, loved the engine, though it made me want a 525d or 530d with just a smidge more power. Handled amazing, very very comfy and quiet inside.
a5 2.0tdi- NOT an s-line so normal suspension, ride much nicer but still responsive/good handling/nice steering response. 2.0tdi may be slower on paper, but is far easier/nicer to drive.

TL;DR
Audi a5 2.0 tdi (or 3.0tdi )
OR
new f10 BMW 520d (or 525d/530d)

Good job op you don't half hang about Looking forward to seeing what you decide on..any chance you would test a c class merc and report back

quadrifoglio verde

legomanx51v wrote: »

I know y'all want me to keep the alfa, repair it an get it going again, but I've sold it to someone else who is willing to do a repair job and get it back on the road.

I've been busy test driving EIGHT different cars... Things I've learned:
I hate, hate, hate automatics, and I actually prefer diesel to petrol. The torque delivery on a diesel feels more comfortable for some reason.
In order of testing:
325i e92- Did not like driving position, steering was a bit weird, engine took ages to "get going".
Jag xf 3.0d- HUGE. Really, really comfortable, tonnes of power and torque, best auto gearbox I've tried (out of three haha), no steering feel.
Is250- Worst auto gearbox, Not bad handling, power not good enough.
a5 2.0 tfsi S-line- Looks stunning, nice handling/steering. Ride quite harsh, but quiet. Petrol engine not bad.
318d e90- not as comfy as I was expecting, engine felt really loud and tractor-y in the one I tried. Steering/handling surprisingly was better than 325i???
Alfa Gulietta 1750 tbi cloverleaf- Engine is amazing, sounds lovely too. Overall interior could be slightly higher in quality and nowhere near as comfy/quiet interior as a bigger saloon.
520d f10- Very nice shape, loved the engine, though it made me want a 525d or 530d with just a smidge more power. Handled amazing, very very comfy and quiet inside.
a5 2.0tdi- NOT an s-line so normal suspension, ride much nicer but still responsive/good handling/nice steering response. 2.0tdi may be slower on paper, but is far easier/nicer to drive.

TL;DR
Audi a5 2.0 tdi (or 3.0tdi )
OR
new f10 BMW 520d (or 525d/530d)

Just on the Alfa Giulietta, the facelift is due to arrive into Irish dealers in May.
While very little has been changed to the exterior, the interior has been given a big boost, with new seats, better leather, touch screen as standard etc. Its also had the sound insulation upgraded.
However don't know if you're willing to hold out that long.
If you've no kids etc, I have heard from a decent source that the 4c will be in tractamotors in a few weeks.......

Out of the rest of those, id go for the A5 with the 3.0 tdi.

bear1

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Just on the Alfa Giulietta, the facelift is due to arrive into Irish dealers in May.
While very little has been changed to the exterior, the interior has been given a big boost, with new seats, better leather, touch screen as standard etc. Its also had the sound insulation upgraded.
However don't know if you're willing to hold out that long.
If you've no kids etc, I have heard from a decent source that the 4c will be in tractamotors in a few weeks.......

Out of the rest of those, id go for the A5 with the 3.0 tdi.

http://www.carsession.com/photos/alfa-romeo/2014-alfa-romeo-giulietta-facelift-unveiled-ahead-of-iaa-frankfurt-0.jpg.html

Not a bad interior actually. If it were me I'd be holding out until May and try both the new Giulietta and 4C. Ever since the Top Gear episode I've been randy as fook about it.

legomanx51v

noelf wrote: »

Good job op you don't half hang about Looking forward to seeing what you decide on..any chance you would test a c class merc and report back

I did test drive a c class just today. C180k 2010. Was expecting it to be terrible and an "old man's car". Pleasantly surprised by the 1.6 turbo petrol, revs nicely and not as underpowered as I'd have thought but car the car felt a bit heavy for t.
Handling was quite good and quick but could do with a little more weight in the steering. Quite affordable especially as its a "less desirable":rolleyes: petrol engine.

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

If you've no kids etc, I have heard from a decent source that the 4c will be in tractamotors in a few weeks.......

Noooo, couldn't get a 4c, I just couldn't...... not for 70% motorway driving... or could I?

Tried a f10 525d. Last car I test drove. LOVED the engine. 3litre 6cylinder diesel. Manual transmission. Put a deposit and left happy.

quadrifoglio verde

legomanx51v wrote: »

I did test drive a c class just today. C180k 2010. Was expecting it to be terrible and an "old man's car". Pleasantly surprised by the 1.6 turbo petrol, revs nicely and not as underpowered as I'd have thought but car the car felt a bit heavy for t.
Handling was quite good and quick but could do with a little more weight in the steering. Quite affordable especially as its a "less desirable":rolleyes: petrol engine.


Noooo, couldn't get a 4c, I just couldn't...... not for 70% motorway driving... or could I?

Motorway driving....56.5 mpg extra urban is the claimed consumption.....unfortunately i haven't been able to test this claim
However if you had one, you'd start driving across country to get to work.

noelf

legomanx51v wrote: »

I did test drive a c class just today. C180k 2010. Was expecting it to be terrible and an "old man's car". Pleasantly surprised by the 1.6 turbo petrol, revs nicely and not as underpowered as I'd have thought but car the car felt a bit heavy for t.
Handling was quite good and quick but could do with a little more weight in the steering. Quite affordable especially as its a "less desirable":rolleyes: petrol engine.


Noooo, couldn't get a 4c, I just couldn't...... not for 70% motorway driving... or could I?

Tried a f10 525d. Last car I test drove. LOVED the engine. 3litre 6cylinder diesel. Manual transmission. Put a deposit and left happy.

good luck op with new car post a picture when you have it

fixie

legomanx51v wrote: »

I spoke to Gerry in TI Autos myself today, he wasn't keen on repairing it at all, he was suggesting getting rid of it too.

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Surprised that would be the case - surely the car is close to worthless as is? Seems drastic for a relatively fresh car

H3llR4iser wrote: »

That's really odd...is there anything else majorly wrong with the car?

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

With regards to Gerry in Ti, theres a possibility that doing the gearbox for him would have taken up too much of his time. From what I've heard he's flat out at the moment.

Just to clear this up. Unfortunately Gerry has heard of a few 159s which have had boxes fail in them and it is the sad case that with the labour and part costs involved sometimes it does not make economic sense to get the gearbox replaced. As some of you mentioned if the car needs a clutch and flywheel then costs can escalate very quickly.
Gerry is always honest with customers in regards whether or not carrying out bigger jobs on cars is the best option. However he would'nt just recommend that someone scrap their car purely on the basis that he is busy at the time.