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Dublin niche music service Public hearings - Observations!
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14-04-2014 9:49pm#1Interesting day at the public hearings for the Dublin niche music radio licence this afternoon. Need to brush up on how this whole thing works (for research purposes of course) but was particularly interested by the fact that both groups - Sunshine 106.8 and Country 106.8 were proposing very different stations: An easy listening station from Sunshine and a pure country station from Country 106.8.
Obvious solution of course is to licence both stations of course but for whatever reason that unfortunately won't happen. Both made perfectly grand presentations and then sat through perfectly grand question and answer sessions and a decision is due in a couple of months. Definite feeling though that the world of radio has moved on but we are still in a process that perhaps had merit 20 years ago but not so much now.....
Good to see lots of familiar faces there too!
Simon3
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And the likelihood is that after the decision the court cases will begin....0
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SimonMaher wrote: »Interesting day at the public hearings for the Dublin niche music radio licence this afternoon. Need to brush up on how this whole thing works (for research purposes of course) but was particularly interested by the fact that both groups - Sunshine 106.8 and Country 106.8 were proposing very different stations: An easy listening station from Sunshine and a pure country station from Country 106.8.
Obvious solution of course is to licence both stations of course but for whatever reason that unfortunately won't happen. Both made perfectly grand presentations and then sat through perfectly grand question and answer sessions and a decision is due in a couple of months. Definite feeling though that the world of radio has moved on but we are still in a process that perhaps had merit 20 years ago but not so much now.....
Good to see lots of familiar faces there too!
Simon
Is there a market for these two stations? I mean the current version of Sunshine has a very small market share so would it make sense to license two new stations?0 -
Is there a market for these two stations? I mean the current version of Sunshine has a very small market share so would it make sense to license two new stations?
Soc160, that depends on if you buy into the idea that we have to protect Radio stations and investors from themselves! Both groups are targeting different niches and both have relatively low ratings expectations (share of between 2-4%) and both believe they can make those niches pay. Only time (and the efforts of the groups) would tell if they were able to make the stations work. So why not?
Simon0 -
I have been looking at the application for the Country FM service.
They estimate that their revenue will be in the reigon of 450,000 Euro for the first year of operation.
Local sales will make up 84% of revenue
Agency sales 9%
and sponsorship and promotions 7%
This on a market share of about 2.3%.
Anybody know if this looks realistic?0 -
absolutely, let them swim or sink on their own merits, every other business has to operate that way, the BAI protectionist nonsense has no place in modern ireland, let market forces decide here, if theirs a market for the station they will do okay, if not then rebrand change format or bye byeIs there a market for these two stations? I mean the current version of Sunshine has a very small market share so would it make sense to license two new stations?ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Any radio station that Martin Block has been involved with for the last 25 years has not worked out according to plan.0
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I have been looking at the application for the Country FM service.
They estimate that their revenue will be in the reigon of 450,000 Euro for the first year of operation.
Local sales will make up 84% of revenue
Agency sales 9%
and sponsorship and promotions 7%
This on a market share of about 2.3%.
Anybody know if this looks realistic?
Expunge,
Those figures sound reasonable enough. As always though, the proof would be when the station is on the air and the sales reps go knocking on the doors. Sunshine (and others) use the Advertiser Club idea to get guaranteed income throughout the year from direct clients and it has served them well. I think there might even be an extra few quid available from the agencies if you squeeze really hard!
Just important for me to stress that I don't favour one application above the other here - I think they both deserve a go.
Simon0 -
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I think this comes down to the word "Niche". The licence is for a Niche Radio Service". If the competition is for Niche, then Country Fm win. However, if the Licence was for mainstream Radio and based on the presentation at the hearing, then Sunshine would have won. As for the Business Plan, sunshine are more ambitious, but Country Fm's looks very viable and more understanding of a Niche Radio Service.. Question is, will the BAI stand by their own policy for a Niche Music Licence...0
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Interesting comments as Lite Fm were Easy Listening, which is been proposed by Sunshine and 4fm CEO is Sean Ashmore who is also the CEO for Sunshine..0
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SimonMaher wrote: »Soc160, that depends on if you buy into the idea that we have to protect Radio stations and investors from themselves! Both groups are targeting different niches and both have relatively low ratings expectations (share of between 2-4%) and both believe they can make those niches pay. Only time (and the efforts of the groups) would tell if they were able to make the stations work. So why not?
Simon
Um, that would be a larger scale debate about the merits of the BAI alright. I still think that two new stations targeting a share of 2% and 4% in what appears to be an ever decreasing pool of listeners is ambitious. Where does that possible 8 per cent come from? especially if it is a niche station. Would it not be more sensible to have just one station offer the more popular service, rather than have two new stations and expanding the market and making it more difficult to obtain a market share? Any idea if the news and current affairs requirments would be waived, this would make it easier to implement a station.end of the road wrote: »absolutely, let them swim or sink on their own merits, every other business has to operate that way, the BAI protectionist nonsense has no place in modern ireland, let market forces decide here, if theirs a market for the station they will do okay, if not then rebrand change format or bye bye
Most business do their market research beforehand and i'm sure it's no different with these guys but we have to remember that a radio station is a public service too that has a number of commitments and regulations it has to abide by and is accessible to a very large number of people. I agree that the market should be expanded but you can't just let stations come on board and start changing format to what they want. As a whole their should be more licenses and freedom and requirments should be waived in certain circumstances, allt his would need to be done in the right way, over a few years so that other stations don't revolt. Mmy point would be that at present that is not that case so allowing two new stations could on board would be suicidal and they could harm each other, where as one station might thrive.0 -
but how would we know what station is going to offer the more popular service, the BAI decides the licence so what happens if it turns out then that the service isn't popular, whereas the other may have been, going on that logic we may as well bassically give the licence to sunshine, as some would say what they offer is more popular then a real country serviceWould it not be more sensible to have just one station offer the more popular service
so what if we have 2 stations and it makes it difficult to obtain a market share, thats just market forces and business, why shouldn't we licence the 2 and give people choice and let them decide what stations they want to listen to.rather than have two new stations and expanding the market and making it more difficult to obtain a market share?
means nothing, infact the way it actually works is, RTE is a public service whereas commercial radio is a business that happens to serve the publicwe have to remember that a radio station is a public service too that has a number of commitments and regulations it has to abide by and is accessible to a very large number of people.
of course you can, its happened all ready anyway whether you realize it or not, sunshine licenced as a country station, hardly plays country now i believe, light fm, changed its format more or less and rebranded, phantom, rebranded and is playing different styles of music it didn't used to play before it changed name, otherwise you can do my preferred option of sticking with a format licence and the winner has to stick to it come what may or go off the airI agree that the market should be expanded but you can't just let stations come on board and start changing format to what they want.
it would not be suicidal, and 2 different services targeting different audiences can't harm each other, and even in the unlikely event they do so be it, fact is by saying what you are your suggesting keeping a nonsense protectionist system for private businesses, protectionism is fine for vital state run public services but thats itAs a whole their should be more licenses and freedom and requirments should be waived in certain circumstances, allt his would need to be done in the right way, over a few years so that other stations don't revolt. Mmy point would be that at present that is not that case so allowing two new stations could on board would be suicidal and they could harm each other, where as one station might thrive.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »but how would we know what station is going to offer the more popular service, the BAI decides the licence so what happens if it turns out then that the service isn't popular, whereas the other may have been, going on that logic we may as well bassically give the licence to sunshine, as some would say what they offer is more popular then a real country service
so what if we have 2 stations and it makes it difficult to obtain a market share, thats just market forces and business, why shouldn't we licence the 2 and give people choice and let them decide what stations they want to listen to.
means nothing, infact the way it actually works is, RTE is a public service whereas commercial radio is a business that happens to serve the public
of course you can, its happened all ready anyway whether you realize it or not, sunshine licenced as a country station, hardly plays country now i believe, light fm, changed its format more or less and rebranded, phantom, rebranded and is playing different styles of music it didn't used to play before it changed name, otherwise you can do my preferred option of sticking with a format licence and the winner has to stick to it come what may or go off the air
it would not be suicidal, and 2 different services targeting different audiences can't harm each other, and even in the unlikely event they do so be it, fact is by saying what you are your suggesting keeping a nonsense protectionist system for private businesses, protectionism is fine for vital state run public services but thats it
As I said, I don't agree with the way it is no im just offering a rationale as to why things happen the way they do and the merits of it. A few things need to be considered. Look at how badly stations are struggling, Phantom has had to re brand, 4fm is in serious debt, sunshine has a non existent listener ship, so now is obviously not a good time to start up a new station let alone two and I think it would be negligible of the BAI to approve it, they would come under serious scrutiny for it if the stations failed. We also have to consider other stations, if a new Country station started next week and had changed to a AC Top 40 Music station in 6 months Spin, 98 and 104 would kick up a fuss, especially if they began chipping away at their market share. It's not all black and white as you elude too, there are other forces at work, whether rightly or wrongly we cant just start handing out licenses to anyone who wants one, it needs to be restructured to give the current stations a chance to adapt.
If we let everyone start up a bank tomorrow the market would collapse, there would be too much competition and not enough of a market to sustain business. if there is roughly 800,000 people listening to the radio daily in Dublin then a 2 per cent share is about 16000, not really appealing to a potential advertiser. If we keep splitting that pie of 800,000 each station keeps losing listeners to others, then revenues drop across the board and people will lose jobs too. As it is the number of young listeners to radio is falling dramatically too, if anything the BAI should look at ways to get more young people listening, possibly approve more youth licenses across the board or impose stricter sanctions on 2fm to reach a younger audience.
I think we have gone off topic because there is only one license so this is all hypothetical anyway, I don't care who gets that license the market share they have is minimal anyway. I think the market is precarious at the moment though, if I was given a million euro to invest it would not be in a radio station at the moment. As i said at the start, i'm in favour of more licenses being given out but in the right way, over a period of time so we safe guard the current stations and don't lose anymore as we almost did with Phantom. I'm not saying my ideas are right but I don't think the BAI are doing a good job in protecting the market either, as always people have different issues with them.0 -
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the market isn't the best for any business but at the end of the day its a 50 50 as to whether you will sink or swim and radio is no different and should be treated no differentPhantom has had to re brand, 4fm is in serious debt, sunshine has a non existent listener ship, so now is obviously not a good time to start up a new station let alone two
the BAI would be absolutely right to approve it, they should have no say in anything financial or otherwise in these businesses, and at the end of the day thats what they are, private businesses, the only things that should be taken into consideration is frequencies and whether the station will offer anything different to the rest, after that they will either have to stick to the format they go for come what may or if they need to rebrand the format cannot be 1 covered by other stations, if they don't think they will be able to make it work then as i said bye bye get off and let someone else have a goI think it would be negligible of the BAI to approve it, they would come under serious scrutiny for it if the stations failed.
hence they don't be allowed to change to such a format as its covered more then enough.We also have to consider other stations, if a new Country station started next week and had changed to a AC Top 40 Music station in 6 months Spin, 98 and 104 would kick up a fuss, especially if they began chipping away at their market share.
huh? who said hand out licences to anyone? nobody, such stations as been talked about here won't effect the current stations as they will be looking for a speciffic audience.It's not all black and white as you elude too, there are other forces at work, whether rightly or wrongly we cant just start handing out licenses to anyone who wants one, it needs to be restructured to give the current stations a chance to adapt.
what are you on about? what has banks got to do with anything, banks can bring an economy down which we know perfectly well, to many radio stations will only effect each other, if a few go people will lose jobs and while thats sad the damage to a whole country is nothing.If we let everyone start up a bank tomorrow the market would collapse, there would be too much competition and not enough of a market to sustain business.
tough, thats businessif there is roughly 800,000 people listening to the radio daily in Dublin then a 2 per cent share is about 16000, not really appealing to a potential advertiser. If we keep splitting that pie of 800,000 each station keeps losing listeners to others, then revenues drop across the board and people will lose jobs too.
or maybe just except young people want to discover and listen to music another way and not via radio, 2fm doesn't need sanctions, its none of the BAIS business.As it is the number of young listeners to radio is falling dramatically too, if anything the BAI should look at ways to get more young people listening, possibly approve more youth licenses across the board or impose stricter sanctions on 2fm to reach a younger audience.
whats the "right way" its, one applies for a licence, if theirs room and they offer something different they get it, they find out later on that their station isn't viable then they are told to stick to it or get off, or, rebrand to something else not covered by other stations, safe guard the current stations? protectionist talk, the current stations aren't entitled to be protected, like any business they have to offer something and be different, if they can't do that and survive then bye bye get off and shut downi'm in favour of more licenses being given out but in the right way, over a period of time so we safe guard the current stations and don't lose anymore as we almost did with Phantom.
their rules are based on a protectionist model which protects the market, allowing the likes of phantom to rebrand and allowing it to tweak its format is protecting the stationI don't think the BAI are doing a good job in protecting the market eitherticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Interesting article posted on the Irish Times website with the arguement for more stations0
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end of the road wrote: »the market isn't the best for any business but at the end of the day its a 50 50 as to whether you will sink or swim and radio is no different and should be treated no different
the BAI would be absolutely right to approve it, they should have no say in anything financial or otherwise in these businesses, and at the end of the day thats what they are, private businesses, the only things that should be taken into consideration is frequencies and whether the station will offer anything different to the rest, after that they will either have to stick to the format they go for come what may or if they need to rebrand the format cannot be 1 covered by other stations, if they don't think they will be able to make it work then as i said bye bye get off and let someone else have a go
hence they don't be allowed to change to such a format as its covered more then enough.
huh? who said hand out licences to anyone? nobody, such stations as been talked about here won't effect the current stations as they will be looking for a speciffic audience.
what are you on about? what has banks got to do with anything, banks can bring an economy down which we know perfectly well, to many radio stations will only effect each other, if a few go people will lose jobs and while thats sad the damage to a whole country is nothing.
tough, thats business
or maybe just except young people want to discover and listen to music another way and not via radio, 2fm doesn't need sanctions, its none of the BAIS business.
their rules are based on a protectionist model which protects the market, allowing the likes of phantom to rebrand and allowing it to tweak its format is protecting the station
The Bank metaphor was to show you couldnt just flood a market with more and more competition, I wasn't refering to actual real world finances, the financial markets are regulated as is our media and you need to accept that. If you keep segregating the market it becomes less lucrative, the BAI have a duty to keep it competitive. As for 2fm they are under BAI supervision as such, they gave them the license and 2fm have to report to them regarding any complaints or contract breaches so they do have control over them to an extent.
We are coming at this from different viewpoints. You obivously have a problem with the BAI, and as I said this is all hypotetical talk because there are no new licenses available.0 -
The Bank metaphor was to show you couldnt just flood a market with more and more competition, I wasn't refering to actual real world finances, the financial markets are regulated as is our media and you need to accept that. If you keep segregating the market it becomes less lucrative, the BAI have a duty to keep it competitive. As for 2fm they are under BAI supervision as such, they gave them the license and 2fm have to report to them regarding any complaints or contract breaches so they do have control over them to an extent.
We are coming at this from different viewpoints. You obivously have a problem with the BAI, and as I said this is all hypotetical talk because there are no new licenses available.
Interesting Article from the Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/ontherecord/2014/04/16/anyone-for-a-niche-radio-station-in-dublin/0 -
but it doesn't work as they are 2 completely different things, if commercial radio goes to the wall nothing happens, if banks go to the wall then bad things happen as they are intertwined with countries economiesThe Bank metaphor was to show you couldnt just flood a market with more and more competition, I wasn't refering to actual real world finances
but thats just tough, these are private businesses which if they go to the wall the country as a whole doesn't suffer, yeah you will have less stations but nobody will dieIf you keep segregating the market it becomes less lucrative
which their not, their operating a protectionist model, the BAI don't have a duty to protect private businesses, theirs no true competition in ireland anyway, just multiple stations offering more or less the same thing.the BAI have a duty to keep it competitive.
the BAI did not give 2fm a licence, 2fm launched in 1979 long before any regulation of radio came in, regulation of radio came in at the start of 1989, you should know this anywayAs for 2fm they are under BAI supervision as such, they gave them the license and 2fm have to report to them regarding any complaints or contract breaches so they do have control over them to an extent.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Interesting article from The Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/ontherecord/2014/04/16/anyone-for-a-niche-radio-station-in-dublin/0 -
end of the road wrote: »but it doesn't work as they are 2 completely different things, if commercial radio goes to the wall nothing happens, if banks go to the wall then bad things happen as they are intertwined with countries economies
but thats just tough, these are private businesses which if they go to the wall the country as a whole doesn't suffer, yeah you will have less stations but nobody will die
which their not, their operating a protectionist model, the BAI don't have a duty to protect private businesses, theirs no true competition in ireland anyway, just multiple stations offering more or less the same thing.
the BAI did not give 2fm a licence, 2fm launched in 1979 long before any regulation of radio came in, regulation of radio came in at the start of 1989, you should know this anyway
I don't think you need to take the bank metaphor so literally, the context of it is more important. Like we have fishing regulations, we can't just let anyone we want come in and harvest our fish, now I know that gets lost a bit in translation but if you keep segregating that market then no one can make a profit because there is too much competition. I'm not talking about the country going to the wall or anything like that, but from a business point of view why would anyone want that. I think you need to consider it from that point of view too, the corrupt way these institutions are run it's unfortunate that people cant be more gutsy without the fear of being sacked looming over them.
It doesnt have to be about life or death though. Why would having less stations and people losing their jobs be a good thing? Why would the regulator allow that?
2fm are broadcasting under the BAI regulations and guidelines regardless of where they got that license from. It's off topic but I was suggesting they stick to the youth programming instead of having no clear direction. There are other threads for that though.
You have good views on the radio sphere in Ireland and i'm not saying what you suggest is the wrong way i'm more so pointing to that fact that this is how things are done and it's unfortunate. I'm looking at it through a business prism, I distrust the way these licenses are awarded but I also fear for the future of radio here, if Phatom didn't have a sizeable backing by Communicorp it may well be gone and it's rebranding was a bit of a wake up call.0 -
but nobody is saying allow anyone on and have hundreds of stations, the spectrum isn't there for that, but that if someone applies for a licence and they offer something not covered by the current stations and they can proove that they will be different and stick to the codes then they get on air, but if they find out later that the format isn't viable they either have 2 options, a rebrand to another format that isn't covered or shut down, if they want to operate as a business they have to be treated as such.we can't just let anyone we want come in and harvest our fish
not really, some stations will shut because they offer nothing different or they just can't make money and those who can make money will do so, survival of the fitistif you keep segregating that market then no one can make a profit because there is too much competition.
but it does if radio stations want to operate as a business, if they want to operate as a business then they have to face the same risks as any other business has to face, the taxi industry for example has no protectionist model to limit the market (which actually in that industries case can cause a lot of problems if no money is made)It doesnt have to be about life or death though.
why would having less of any business and people losing jobs be any good, it wouldn't, but in business it happensWhy would having less stations and people losing their jobs be a good thing?
because they licence a particular station to provide a particular format, the station later realizes that format isn't viable, yet the BAI allow them to go to a format similar to the other stations, even though the BAI probably take financial considerations into acount when granting licences, the BAI are there to regulate radio, they should not be and are not financial advisorsWhy would the regulator allow that?
but thats business, as a commercial station phantom just didn't work, it worked as a pirate because they didn't have to make the large amount of money that commercial stations are expected to make, if they were able to operate as a community of interest licence meaning they just pay the necessary costs such as music royalties and so on rather then shareholders then they may have had a chance rather then going mainstream and alienating their pirate audience, they tried but they were hindered by the burdening costs and other aspects of operating in a fully commercial environment as a fully commercial station, not their fault, just the system they were operating in.if Phantom didn't have a sizeable backing by Communicorp it may well be goneticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Again, I have been looking through the Country FM application documents online and I see that consortium has spent 90,000 on the application (research etc.) alone.
A total financial investment of 1 million Euro is available, all pledged by the shareholders - no borrowings.
A total marketing budget of 123,000 Euro for Year 1.
Studios and transmission investment of 114,000 Euro
10 full time staff and 5 part timers at a cost of just over 300,000 Euro per annum.
News from Newstalk at a cost of 32,500 Euro per annum.
All this to chase a 5.5 % reach and 3.75% share by Year 3, when the station expects to be self-financing.
My questions are: Does this look a good template for Niche FM broadcasting?
If these guys needed to borrow to make this happen, would they be able to get funding in the current climate?0 -
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Do country fm still plan to broadcast on Saorview ?0
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