I have an idea for an app...

The Corinthian

There's been quite a few of these threads of late and I thought I'd raise the topic on the basis that many - perhaps the majority - fail to reach any real standard for decent discussion on this or the Mobile Applications forum.

Note that, this isn't limited to apps alone (the title of this thread could also read "I have an idea for a Web site"), but apps in particular are in vogue for the get-rich-quick brigade and the vast majority of these threads appear to be about them.

These threads tend to break down into the following types:

• I had an idea for an app while talking to my mates in the pub last night; please give me lots of advice on it quickly because I'm going to see something shiny soon and forget about it.
• I have an idea for an app that's going to be bigger than Google. I don't want to discuss it here, but want people to apply to sign NDAs and speak to me about it.
• I have an idea for an app and want to build it. My budget for this is two Mars bars and a packet of crisps. Don't all apply at once.
• I have an idea for an app and have done a good bit of research on it. I'm at the point where I have a business plan, some funding and a preliminary spec and would be interested in discussing it's development with a developer with a whom I am willing to pay and/or share equity with.

As you can see, the running theme in all but the last is someone rushing to build an app based upon nothing other than an idea, maybe a few scribbled concepts and little or no effort to develop it beyond that basic idea. More often than not, there is an attitude that not only are they entitled to free professional advice, but that developers are happy to work for Mars bars and a packets of crisps and that somehow contributing nothing but an idea entitles one to 99% ownership of any business that comes of it.

To me, this is comparable to "will someone do my assignment" threads, where an OP has not bothered to put in any effort and so ends up polluting the forum with threads seeking others to do it all for them. Rightly, such "will someone do my assignment" threads are basically banned here, because they add nothing to the forum or community and encourage, essentially, laziness.

While the temptation would be to simply ban such 'idea' threads as well, occasionally you do get the last type, where someone has put in the groundwork and genuinely deserves our attention. It doesn't happen very often, I'll admit, but it does happen.

The purpose of this thread is to open up to the community a discussion on how such threads should be handled, ideally to define a standard that such threads should meet to be allowed, and if not locked or nuked accordingly, before they suck posters into them.

Thoughts?

Calina

Personally speaking, I'd suggest you ban them because the vast majority of them bring very little. Someone who reaches stage four might conceivably be able to put something in the situations vacant sticky; anyone who has invisibleware won't.

Minimum standard should be a framework for remuneration be it equity or a salary. But then I'm cynical; way back when I used to mod photography we had a lot of issues with people offering wedding photography services or demanding them for free or "exposure" and the gaps between what people were willing to pay.

I basically think this is the same general idea. I have an idea, you do all the work. Very hard not to be somewhat discerning to say the least if you're the one doing all the work.

Tom Dunne

How about a ''How to ask for advice in developing an app?" sticky or something along those lines?

l started a similar one many moons ago in the mobiles forum, titled "How to ask for phone recommendations" listing out the basic information required, to counteract to the "what's the best phone?" threads. If posters do not provide the relevant information, then threads can be locked / ignored/whatever.

While I appreciate the frustration of the regulars in dealing with these threads, I do think there is an unnecessary level of hostility shown to the uninitiated.

The Corinthian

Tom Dunne wrote: »

How about a ''How to ask for advice in developing an app?" sticky or something along those lines?

I was thinking something similar, as a means to enforce a minimum standard which would allow a culling of the first three types I cited, while still allowing the last.

While I appreciate the frustration of the regulars in dealing with these threads, I do think there is an unnecessary level of hostility shown to the uninitiated.

Yes, although this is often frustration with the fact that those posting have made little effort to bring anything other than an 'idea' to the thread. There are often simelar threads on the first page, asking identical questions and it's clear they've not even bothered to check them out before posting. All before you get to the red flag of those who think it perfectly normal to expect others to do all the work while the 'ideas man' brings nothing but the 'idea' to the table.

This will naturally translate to open attacks by some or, especially in my case, a tendency to be very blunt so as not to beat around the bush if this is another joker.

Tow

I find if you start by telling them the costs up front they will go a way.

IRLConor

The Corinthian wrote: »

My budget for this is two Mars bars and a packet of crisps.

Maybe in this "how to ask advice for developing an app" thread/sticky we can make it blindingly obvious how expensive software development can be?

Something like "if your software budget isn't expressed in tens or hundreds of thousands of euro then don't bother asking".

The Corinthian

IRLConor wrote: »

Something like "if your software budget isn't expressed in tens or hundreds of thousands of euro then don't bother asking".

Except then you'll get the Elance argument, where it can be very cheap to develop something. And that in turn will turn into the same tired discussion about the pitfalls of working out outsourced developers and so on.

Thing is citing Elance/outsourcing is a valid argument as it can be viable if properly sourced and managed. I don't think the problem is that, I think the problem is more one where people have an 'idea' and are either too lazy to do some research before posting and/or too excited by it and so post without having much of a clue on several levels. Much of the problem is that they come looking to build an app before they even know how it's going to generate revenue, let alone have a decent functionality spec.

A sticky that demands that such a thread should not be a first port of call, and that posters should first do their homework on what they want to do and consider their idea realistically, rather than fantastically, would be a better approach that covers cost and these other factors, IMO.

IRLConor

The Corinthian wrote: »

Except then you'll get the Elance argument, where it can be very cheap to develop something. And that in turn will turn into the same tired discussion about the pitfalls of working out outsourced developers and so on.

Thing is citing Elance/outsourcing is a valid argument as it can be viable if properly sourced and managed.

I think the simplest response to "what about Elance?" is "If you're confident that you can get it done to the same quality for lower cost on Elance then you should use it." and don't bother about discussing the pitfalls of outsourcing.

The Corinthian

IRLConor wrote: »

I think the simplest response to "what about Elance?" is "If you're confident that you can get it done to the same quality for lower cost on Elance then you should use it." and don't bother about discussing the pitfalls of outsourcing.

You know that's not going to happen and, TBH, discussions about Elance/outsourcing are probably valid topics even here. What I'm suggesting is that such threads be asked to meet certain minimum quality guidelines before posting.

Sparks

Personally, I think these threads in the majority of cases bring the forum away from what it could be (a place for developers to talk about development and which would as a result be of interest to other developers whether experienced or neophyte) and with few exceptions seem to be written as though this forum had a "GET YER FREE WORK DONE HERE" audio loop playing in the background.

I think the problem boils down to people not seeing this forum as a place for developers, as opposed to being a collection of developers in one place who're fair game for any recruitment agency or the software industry's equivalent of the guy with the pickup truck looking to hire illegal immigrants off the street corner in Texas.

I'd rather that stopped. I'd rather it stopped quickly and if banning these threads completely for a time did that even at a cost of potentially interesting ideas, I don't mind doing it even if it seems rude to non-developers. What I'm not sure of is how valuable people feel the exceptions are worth (TC's fourth category above).

I don't think we can get people to meet standards before posting though, if we could, well, the internet in general would be a far nicer place. Heck, most of the time posters don't read the charters at all even after years in a forum, until they fall afoul of it and you have to point it out to them.

Tom Dunne

Sparks wrote: »

I don't think we can get people to meet standards before posting though, if we could, well, the internet in general would be a far nicer place. Heck, most of the time posters don't read the charters at all even after years in a forum, until they fall afoul of it and you have to point it out to them.

I'd have to disagree with you on this one, and here's why. A while back, a few friends and i were chatting about the Internet and this and that (recall that I am living abroad). As most of us were Irish, Boards.ie came up. I was surprised to learn that the general consensus was that the site was "very strict". While I didn't reveal what part I played in that "strictness", I admittedly took a little satisfaction in that perception.

My point being is that if we implement a policy in this forum regarding this type if thread, I personally think that the stricter we are, the better - people will eventually learn and, you never know, something good might come of it.

Sparks

Wasn't what I meant Tom - I meant we can't rely on there being a rule in the charter as a way to stop these kinds of posts, we'll have to actually stomp on them actively for a while first

Fenster

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with you on this one, and here's why. A while back, a few friends and i were chatting about the Internet and this and that (recall that I am living abroad). As most of us were Irish, Boards.ie came up. I was surprised to learn that the general consensus was that the site was "very strict". While I didn't reveal what part I played in that "strictness", I admittedly took a little satisfaction in that perception.

My point being is that if we implement a policy in this forum regarding this type if thread, I personally think that the stricter we are, the better - people will eventually learn and, you never know, something good might come of it.

Spend more than five minutes in /r/ireland on Reddit and you'll run into someone whining about their ban.

Sparks

Fenster wrote: »

Spend more than five minutes in /r/ireland on Reddit and you'll run into someone whining about their ban.

Or politics.ie or proc or any one of a dozen other sites...

...none of which I'd actually recommend to anyone because the noise/signal level there is so low and they have such a high frequency of turning on newbies en masse for a good old-fashioned lynching...

Tom Dunne

Fenster wrote: »

Spend more than five minutes in /r/ireland on Reddit and you'll run into someone whining about their ban.

Do you honestly think I give a damn?

Seriously - let them.

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote: »

I'd rather that stopped. I'd rather it stopped quickly and if banning these threads completely for a time did that even at a cost of potentially interesting ideas, I don't mind doing it even if it seems rude to non-developers. What I'm not sure of is how valuable people feel the exceptions are worth (TC's fourth category above).

I see your point. As much as I am loathed to see a blanket ban such threads, I'd have to admit that for every such thread that would qualify for the fourth category I mentioned, there's probably fifty that fall into one - or more - of the other three.

It makes the case for defending the rare 'good' ideas threads very weak, or at least more trouble than they're worth.

ChRoMe

The Corinthian wrote: »

I see your point. As much as I am loathed to see a blanket ban such threads, I'd have to admit that for every such thread that would qualify for the fourth category I mentioned, there's probably fifty that fall into one - or more - of the other three.

It makes the case for defending the rare 'good' ideas threads very weak, or at least more trouble than they're worth.

Basically if a coherent functional specification is not posted in the OP, it gets binned.

Fenster

As Calina mentioned up above, this doesn't just afflict programmers; chancers who want free/cheap services is endemic to all creative fields, to the point that they can't reasonably offer ignorance as defense of the actual costs.

fergalr

If these threads are to be non banned, then I'd suggest putting up a sticky saying something like:

"Looking for developers/partners to build your app?"

We encourage enterprise, and are happy to have people ask for help or feedback on ideas for apps. However, because it costs nothing to post on this forum, but takes everyone's time to read, we want to be sure you've actually thought about your idea a bit.

To start a discussion, put up a post with answers to the following questions (adapted from ycombinator application):

- What is your company going to make?

- What's new about what you're doing?

- Why would your project be hard for someone else to duplicate?

- What do you bring to this project? (Only include things that can be measured in objective terms.) (e.g 3 years sales experience, 10k funding, 30 page UI mockup).


If you don't do that your post will be deleted.

Why?

Reasons for:

- Some serious people do start companies with just equity to split. Some big tech companies have been formed by such relationships, where the non-techie brings other value to the table. I mean, if Steve Jobs was posting here today, looking for Woz, his thread would probably be killed. Is that good? Enterprise does benefit developers.

Reasons against:

- People will waste everyone's time by putting forward proposals they aren't serious about.

Making them answer some basic mandatory questions will make them clear at least some bar. If they aren't willing to answer those questions on a forum thread, then a discussion forum isn't the right venue for them.




However:

- When starting out this post, I was thinking "yeah, this should be encouraged". I'm very pro tech-startups.

- As I write this post, I'm not sure the credibility problem can be solved.

I mean, I'm reluctant to even answer questions in some of the other threads on careers, because I just don't know what stage people are at as developers; so I don't know if my opinion is relevant.


I'd suggest try something like this as an experiment, and kill it if we end up with bad threads.

(Thanks to The Corinthian for raising the issue).

Sparks

fergalr wrote: »

I mean, if Steve Jobs was posting here today, looking for Woz, his thread would probably be killed. Is that good?

Yes, especially for Woz

fergalr

Sparks wrote: »

I don't think we can get people to meet standards before posting though, if we could, well, the internet in general would be a far nicer place. Heck, most of the time posters don't read the charters at all even after years in a forum, until they fall afoul of it and you have to point it out to them.

Regarding the people who just post without reading the charter: you have to take the time to kill their posts anyway. Even if you don't have a sticky with 'the right way to do it'. The sticky might even help. Some % of people will see it, decide to put their post up, just as soon as they get around to answering the questions in the template - and that's them nipped in the bud :-P

ChRoMe wrote: »

Basically if a coherent functional specification is not posted in the OP, it gets binned.

This is in the spirit I'd be going for. But everyone's 'functional spec' will be different. If there's instead a defined template (i.e. a set of questions the first post must address) then maybe it'd catch on.



I totally see the perspective wanting to just keep the threads banned though. It'd be hard (impossible?) to make work properly, and maybe its not worth it.


But... the things we could have would be nice... sigh...

Trojan

roboshatner

I have an idea do not tell anyone about the idea.

The Corinthian wrote: »

There's been quite a few of these threads of late and I thought I'd raise the topic on the basis that many - perhaps the majority - fail to reach any real standard for decent discussion on this or the Mobile Applications forum.

Note that, this isn't limited to apps alone (the title of this thread could also read "I have an idea for a Web site"), but apps in particular are in vogue for the get-rich-quick brigade and the vast majority of these threads appear to be about them.

These threads tend to break down into the following types:

• I had an idea for an app while talking to my mates in the pub last night; please give me lots of advice on it quickly because I'm going to see something shiny soon and forget about it.
• I have an idea for an app that's going to be bigger than Google. I don't want to discuss it here, but want people to apply to sign NDAs and speak to me about it.
• I have an idea for an app and want to build it. My budget for this is two Mars bars and a packet of crisps. Don't all apply at once.
• I have an idea for an app and have done a good bit of research on it. I'm at the point where I have a business plan, some funding and a preliminary spec and would be interested in discussing it's development with a developer with a whom I am willing to pay and/or share equity with.

As you can see, the running theme in all but the last is someone rushing to build an app based upon nothing other than an idea, maybe a few scribbled concepts and little or no effort to develop it beyond that basic idea. More often than not, there is an attitude that not only are they entitled to free professional advice, but that developers are happy to work for Mars bars and a packets of crisps and that somehow contributing nothing but an idea entitles one to 99% ownership of any business that comes of it.

To me, this is comparable to "will someone do my assignment" threads, where an OP has not bothered to put in any effort and so ends up polluting the forum with threads seeking others to do it all for them. Rightly, such "will someone do my assignment" threads are basically banned here, because they add nothing to the forum or community and encourage, essentially, laziness.

While the temptation would be to simply ban such 'idea' threads as well, occasionally you do get the last type, where someone has put in the groundwork and genuinely deserves our attention. It doesn't happen very often, I'll admit, but it does happen.

The purpose of this thread is to open up to the community a discussion on how such threads should be handled, ideally to define a standard that such threads should meet to be allowed, and if not locked or nuked accordingly, before they suck posters into them.

Thoughts?

The Corinthian

ChRoMe wrote: »

Basically if a coherent functional specification is not posted in the OP, it gets binned.

As fergalr pointed out not everyone actually knows what a functional specification is, let alone a coherent one.

I would have to think about what would be necessary for such a guideline sticky, but I could probably summarize in quite quickly for those here; do your homework before posting.

I began this thread with the view that such threads should be allowed, under strict quality guidelines, because there are some genuine, clued-in, people out there. Thinking on it, these are so rare that the whole thing may not be worth the effort.

Still, the way I view it is if you place posting guidelines on this subject, the reality is that the idiot ideas men are not going to bother to read them anyway, because their modus operandi is typically based on laziness. They're going to post regardless.

So, I'd probably still advocate such a guideline be stricter, giving clear instructions on what is or is not acceptable and then have a final caveat at the end:

"When posting, you should acknowledge at the end of your post that you have read these guidelines and are adhering to them. Failure to do so will result in the immediate deletion of the thread regardless of whether you have followed these guidelines or not."

Why do that? Because lazy people don't ever read to the end of things (there used to be a solar power battery recharger app that half way through the description admitted that it was a joke meant to fool people to lazy to read the full description) and it would be a quick and easy way for a mod (or reporting user) to check if they've really read the guidelines.

Meanwhile regardless of a ban on such threads, the obvious idiots are going to post anyway. So this would at least give those who are serious enough to post properly a chance to do so, while making no difference to those who are not, in terms of posts that will get quickly banned.

Evil Phil

There is no commercial posting allowed on the forum, and we can just delete the crap. The Situations Vacant sticky states that

Positions advertised that are offering equity instead of salary in return for work will be deleted immediately.

We could always promote that to the forum charter. There will always be "it's like ____ but for _____" pitches, and there will always be those who want an NDA singed before sharing their vague idea for "I can computers".

It is hard to police, we can always add a new section to the charter, much like the Asking a Question section, How to Start Up or something, lets see how the thread progresses before putting it in place.

I've recently just backed out of start up that had strong market research to support the concept. Problem was, as developer I was going to have to do 90% of the work, but as it wasn't my idea I was being offered 30% of the equity. That offer didn't budge so I said good luck and moved on. But the concept was strong and work had already been done, that's why I got involved in the first place. This is exactly why Point 4 should be the example, in my opinion.

The Corinthian

Evil Phil wrote: »

There is no commercial posting allowed on the forum, and we can just delete the crap. The Situations Vacant sticky states that

Not all such threads seek to hire developers, so while that would cover some such threads, it won't cover all of them (notably the one's looking for ballpark quotes).

I've recently just backed out of start up that had strong market research to support the concept. Problem was, as developer I was going to have to do 90% of the work, but as it wasn't my idea I was being offered 30% of the equity. That offer didn't budge so I said good luck and moved on. But the concept was strong and work had already been done, that's why I got involved in the first place. This is exactly why Point 4 should be the example, in my opinion.

Well, this is because people get emotional about their ideas and end up overvaluing them because they cannot objectively assess them. And because they overvalue the importance of their idea, they end up overvaluing their own role and get very upset when you point out that in reality they're not really bringing much into the venture.

As the expression goes; ideas are like assholes, everyone's got one. And the reality is that in most cases, the would-be entrepreneur is more likely to make money out of using their former than their latter.

However, you're right, these 'ideas' can be of interest to developers when the homework's been done and that's why, I suspect, there's still interest here in avoiding a blanket ban.

fergalr

Evil Phil wrote: »

I've recently just backed out of start up that had strong market research to support the concept. Problem was, as developer I was going to have to do 90% of the work, but as it wasn't my idea I was being offered 30% of the equity. That offer didn't budge so I said good luck and moved on. But the concept was strong and work had already been done, that's why I got involved in the first place. This is exactly why Point 4 should be the example, in my opinion.

There's another side to this coin, too.

When I read that post, my first reaction was "the development is NEVER 90% of the work".

There's pretty much no opportunity you can pursue, where the tech is 90% of the execution.
Techies think there is, until they try it a few times.

Now, that particular post was written by 'Evil Phil' who I know is very smart from his other posts, so its probably an exception.


But, in general, while archetypal business person totally underestimates the tech part, please remember archetypal tech person (yes, you, dear reader) totally underestimates the non-tech part, too.


There's also the vision, the planning, product management, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, sales, sales, sales, sales, accounts etc.


Yes, most people who come looking for you to build tech for them don't have the non-tech skills to equal the years of tech training you've done.

But the few that you'd actually want to work with do. In those circumstances, an equity split is reasonable.

And you telling them that the project is entirely about the tech is generally as stupid as them asking you why you can't build a distributed facebook in an evening.

Sparks

It's probably *very* worthwhile pointing out that equity splits are not even in the same room as simple percentage splits when you start thinking about dilution, let alone the fun and games that surround options, vesting and all the other lovely ways to make "30%" worth about as much as the lint in your left pocket...

And if the company can't get off the ground at all without the tech and the tech is one guy's invention, then there'd better be a very good reason why he's not getting an equal share of the equity before the first angel ever shows up...

fergalr

Sparks wrote: »

It's probably *very* worthwhile pointing out that equity splits are not even in the same room as simple percentage splits when you start thinking about dilution, let alone the fun and games that surround options, vesting and all the other lovely ways to make "30%" worth about as much as the lint in your left pocket...

Valuing equity or percentage split or anything is obviously fraught with difficulty and has many pitfalls, as you point out.

At the same time, there are standard patterns to deal with these things now.

If someone is talking about 30% equity in their startup as a founder, they tend to mean 30% of the common stock of the startup, but restricted subject to vesting (generally 4 years with a cliff.)

If the other parties are serious, that should compare favourably to the pocket lint. At least in terms of expected value.

Dilution should ideally only happen during an event that increases the value of the company, too...

Sparks wrote: »

And if the company can't get off the ground at all without the tech and the tech is one guy's invention, then there'd better be a very good reason why he's not getting an equal share of the equity before the first angel ever shows up...

Absolutely - when I hear 30%, I think '3 founders'. Or maybe if the other founder is contributing substantial capital, or existing progress (substantial meaningful progress).

I'm not commenting on any particular situation here, such as Phil's above, just general thoughts.

The Corinthian

Sparks wrote: »

And if the company can't get off the ground at all without the tech and the tech is one guy's invention, then there'd better be a very good reason why he's not getting an equal share of the equity before the first angel ever shows up...

A business partner partner from an accounting background may be a natural fit for the role of CFO of a venture, a developer CTO, a marketeer Marketing Director and so on. But often the 'ideas man' will become CEO, not because he or she has any aptitude for the role, but out of a combination of vanity and because they're not actually 'qualified' for anything else and reckon they'll learn how to be one along the way.

But for the accountant, developer or marketeer looking to join such a venture, what they see is the long term - one where they bring value to the firm and the 'ideas man' is little more than dead weight coming along for the ride. Certainly the 'idea', if successful, has some value, but not to the point that all that remains for those who bring real (not speculative) and practical value is the crumbs from the equity table.

Evil Phil

Let me clarify: As developer (or future CTO) I was not only going to be developing the application, but was also doing a "developing' a lot other stuff. Like making the solution fit today's market, work out the pricing, how we we're going to manage invoicing and payment, where the office was going to be located, what bank were we going to us, what kind of company were we going to incorporate more and more of this fell to me. A lot of that stuff is marketing I guess, but you can see why I backed out.

The Corinthian

Evil Phil wrote: »

Let me clarify: As developer (or future CTO) I was not only going to be developing the application, but was also doing a "developing' a lot other stuff.

I understand that. I was just pointing out that even on a limited and simplistic basis the disparity is pretty self evident.

I turned down one such 'offer' a few years back on a simelar basis. After their pitch, I asked them what they were bringing to the party apart from their 'idea'. After a few minutes of faffing about, I wished them the best of luck in their new venture.

Vanity with a healthy dose of greed, TBH.

Colonel Panic

I am the first to attack "Not to give too much away..." posts, but I've worked on prototypes with like minded friends, albeit people with the design and business skills I lack and I've done it for free. I *get* the commercial aspect, but I just want to build systems in exchange for money.

Some of these things have have money, some have not.

My usual agreement when I go into these things eyes open is that any technology developed is mine unless we get financial backing. This way, I think I minimise being stuck by promises of equity, because all technology is effectively in escrow, but I also know the people I've worked with and have got tangible specs and timelines.

Sparks

The Corinthian wrote: »

Vanity with a healthy dose of greed, TBH.

It is deeply depressing how commonplace that is and how unhealthy the dose usually is

Sparks

Colonel Panic wrote: »

My usual agreement when I go into these things

Here's the kicker - if these are friends, or if this starts informally, there's a temptation to not get that in writing.

Should you succumb to that temptation, you *will* wind up burnt as a result. That's a lesson best learnt by looking at others rather than direct experience...

Evil Phil

That's a good idea Panic, I'm going to use that in future, but with it in a contract ala Sparks suggestion.

v638sg7k1a92bx

So what's the consensus on this, what is the correct format for someone to procure the services of a developer without getting sarcastic replies?

As someone who has used the services of designers and developer on a number of occasions, a recurring observation that I notice on this forum and on creative Ireland is that I know of no other profession that openly criticizes it's customers i.e. the people who buy your services than freelance developers and designers. Take a glance over on the taxation and legal forums and nearly every thread is someone looking for free advice yet you don't see the same level of put downs as we do here. Also, when an OP creates a thread asking a question, the regular contributors seem to have the expectation is that posters should provide a detailed spec and road-map of their project is just ridiculous. It's the equivalent of a solicitor expecting the client to draft a case file before he'll look at the case and then scoff at the client for not knowing how to prepare a case file.

Another bugbear of mine when dealing with designers/developers, and this not confined to freelancers but also firms, is that you approach them about a project and the first words out of their mouth is "what's the budget?". The only other people who operate on this basis are second hand car dealers, no other profession prices on this basis. I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it. Rule number 1 when buying something is you don't say what your budget is yet the expectation is that I should tell you what my budget is before you even speak to me, so if I say my budget is €10k then that's what it's going to cost regardless of whether that's what it cost to build.

fergalr

Tristan CoolS Dust:

You raise some legitimate points in your thread - let me first make sure to acknowledge that, before responding in order.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

So what's the consensus on this, what is the correct format for someone to procure the services of a developer without getting sarcastic replies?

Quote a serious budget, in line with roughly what your project will cost - or agree to pay a substantial hourly rate without quibbling (anything in line with what a solicitor charges should be fine).
I'm willing to bet that if you do either of those 2 things, you will get legit responses very quickly.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

As someone who has used the services of designers and developer on a number of occasions, a recurring observation that I notice on this forum and on creative Ireland is that I know of no other profession that openly criticizes it's customers i.e. the people who buy your services than freelance developers and designers.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Take a glance over on the taxation and legal forums and nearly every thread is someone looking for free advice yet you don't see the same level of put downs as we do here.

Put downs aren't good, certainly.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Also, when an OP creates a thread asking a question, the regular contributors seem to have the expectation is that posters should provide a detailed spec and road-map of their project is just ridiculous. It's the equivalent of a solicitor expecting the client to draft a case file before he'll look at the case and then scoff at the client for not knowing how to prepare a case file.
Another bugbear of mine when dealing with designers/developers, and this not confined to freelancers but also firms, is that you approach them about a project and the first words out of their mouth is "what's the budget?". The only other people who operate on this basis are second hand car dealers, no other profession prices on this basis. I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it. Rule number 1 when buying something is you don't say what your budget is yet the expectation is that I should tell you what my budget is before you even speak to me, so if I say my budget is €10k then that's what it's going to cost regardless of whether that's what it cost to build.

The reason that people are asking you what your budget is, is to try and understand whether you have any idea the rough ballpark of what your project will cost you.

If you ask a solicitor how much it'll cost you to defend your suit, they will not tell you. They might quote a very high daily or hourly rate. They might have some idea, for suits similar to ones they've fought before, but if you just ask for 'a lawsuit' in general; well, they might not laugh at you, but you won't get very far either.

Go to construction engineer, and ask them how much a bridge will cost, and you'll see something similar.

In fact, try find a construction engineer on an internet forum taking jobs from members of the public - it probably wont be easy.


Even after that, the big difference is, that people won't go to a civil engineer with 500 euro and ask for a mile long suspension bridge. People just don't do that, because it wastes everyones time. have a meeting with a civil engineer, about a bridge want built. If you actually get a meeting with them, have a good chat with them, and at the end, when you get around to discussing the budget, tell them its 500 euro, and see what happens.

People regularly do the equivalent for software projects.

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it.

And what happens when the lawsuit takes longer than the solicitor estimates? Who pays, them or you?
Or, when, after day 2, you decide that actually you wanted to sue under european law instead? You'll find that they don't stick with the fixed price they quoted, and you are generally on an hourly rate, and that any change late in the process drastically increases the fees.


Engineers don't tend to build bridges on fixed prices either - projects regularly blow the budget.

And there's a sense in which bridges are more predictable than software projects.


So, basically, the problem is that most people have zero idea of how to price software.
Yet they want software. Often software that costs e1,000,000+ to develop, when they have e500.

As a result, you get a lot of mismatched expectations, time gets wasted, people get upset etc.
Its very difficult to solve.

There's lots of ways of avoiding that scenario - one way is to ban threads with people looking for developers. As we've been discussing, that's a little punitive - so people suggested allowing projects that come with a spec, so that developers could quickly identify a ballpark figure - but you don't seem to like that?

How would you solve it instead?

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

good points from fergal. i'll add this one

I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it.

devs ask for the budget to filter out the idiots. the explosion of the app econonomy is real, it's all over the news and people are hearing of the billion dollar buyouts. this in turn attracts the idiots who thinks it's a get rich quick scheme. they usually have no money and are clueless. you want to get rid of them quick before they waste more of your time. these kind of people don't hear of bridges being bought out and don't go to engineers (real engineers!) with ridiculously low budgets.

Sparks

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

So what's the consensus on this, what is the correct format for someone to procure the services of a developer without getting sarcastic replies?

Personally, I lean towards the process where you phone or email a firm or developer and ask them to quote for the job you have in mind.

As someone who has used the services of designers and developer on a number of occasions, a recurring observation that I notice on this forum and on creative Ireland is that I know of no other profession that openly criticizes it's customers i.e. the people who buy your services than freelance developers and designers.

In all seriousness, have you ever considered that there could be a very good reason why, if everyone in the industry is doing so? I mean, one, two, ten examples, that could be random chance, but everyone?

Take a glance over on the taxation and legal forums and nearly every thread is someone looking for free advice yet you don't see the same level of put downs as we do here.

That's actually the exact opposite of the facts of the matter.

From the charter of the Legal forum:

1. No legal advice can be sought or given on this forum.

And in case having it as rule one wasn't sufficient, they go into detail:

No legal advice
You may not seek or give legal advice on this forum. All comments on this forum are to be regarded as the personal views of the individuals posting. Nothing posted in this forum is to be construed as legally accurate.

Legal discussion is permitted. However, requests for legal advice or the provision of legal advice is not. A request for legal advice is defined as a specific request for legal advice, assistance or interpretation which is or is intended to be applicable to a specified real-life scenario. The provision of legal advice is defined as the giving of legal advice, assistance or interpretation which is or is intended to be applicable to a specified real-life scenario.
...
The discussion and exploration of hypothetical legal scenarios is permitted and encouraged. However, it is not permitted to invent a hypothetical scenario which mirrors an actual real-life scenario in order to request legal advice or in order to provide legal advice. Significant moderation discretion will be exercised in this regard.

And from the Taxation forum charter:

Disclaimer: This is not a legal/tax/accountancy advice forum. Any opinion offered, in any guise, is to be taken as opinion, and nothing else. That means that if somebody offers a particular course of action, this is not to be thought of as legal advice. In the event that a poster says he is qualified to give legal advice, neither Boards.ie Ltd., nor any of its affiliates, accept any liability for any loss or damage arising therefrom. In other words, members can assume that nobody who posts in this forum is qualified to give legal/tax/accountancy advice. BY POSTING IN OR READING FROM THIS FORUM, YOU AGREE TO THIS DISCLAIMER. Any legal/tax/accountancy advice sought or given will result in an immediate week long ban. Second offences result in an indefinite ban.

...

This is NOT a free advice shop or for people to get nixers. Specific queries are to go to professionals and I have a track record of shunting people along. Please don't even try.

Both cases are interesting though - a forum of professionals, run for professionals, to discuss their profession, stating categorically in the rules that they don't do free work. Perhaps because that's a big part of what "professional" refers to, if I can be blunt here.

Also, when an OP creates a thread asking a question, the regular contributors seem to have the expectation is that posters should provide a detailed spec and road-map of their project is just ridiculous. It's the equivalent of a solicitor expecting the client to draft a case file before he'll look at the case and then scoff at the client for not knowing how to prepare a case file.

Actually, that analogy is rather off the mark, since no solicitor would sit down to even talk to you on the phone for five minutes about your case without a meter running.

Another bugbear of mine when dealing with designers/developers, and this not confined to freelancers but also firms, is that you approach them about a project and the first words out of their mouth is "what's the budget?". The only other people who operate on this basis are second hand car dealers, no other profession prices on this basis.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous in the extreme. EVERY profession does this in one way or another. Solicitors and other charge-by-the-hour professionals will charge by the hour (including preparation of their equivalents of quotes, like the section 67 letters for solicitors). Architects, engineers and other professionals who work on a project basis want to know the budget right from the offing because it is a fundamental piece of the specification for the work. You want to do X. Solutions 1, 2 and 3 cost different amounts, take different amounts of time and so forth. The budget is an immensely important piece of information for those professionals when preparing tenders and quotes.

I go to a solicitor, accountant, architect, engineer etc and I say this is what I need, they give a quote and you take it or leave it.

That's a very unlikely scenario as if you could tell them what you needed with the degree of accuracy required that they didn't need a budget, you'd probably be qualified or experienced in their profession. Except for solicitors, who charge by the hour and have slightly different rules, but even there for large cases, they're going to have a version of the budget conversation too (when they say "this will cost X, do you want to proceed").

Rule number 1 when buying something is you don't say what your budget is yet the expectation is that I should tell you what my budget is before you even speak to me, so if I say my budget is €10k then that's what it's going to cost regardless of whether that's what it cost to build.

I promise you, if that is how you think when hiring a professional, and you want free work done, you will be regarded by the professionals you approach in a very poor light indeed.
Which perhaps speaks to the question you asked at the start about why developers often - if not always - have such a poor view of their clients...

v638sg7k1a92bx

Sparks wrote: »

Personally, I lean towards the process where you phone or email a firm or developer and ask them to quote for the job you have in mind.


In all seriousness, have you ever considered that there could be a very good reason why, if everyone in the industry is doing so? I mean, one, two, ten examples, that could be random chance, but everyone?




That's actually the exact opposite of the facts of the matter.

From the charter of the Legal forum:

And in case having it as rule one wasn't sufficient, they go into detail:


And from the Taxation forum charter:


Both cases are interesting though - a forum of professionals, run for professionals, to discuss their profession, stating categorically in the rules that they don't do free work. Perhaps because that's a big part of what "professional" refers to, if I can be blunt here.


Actually, that analogy is rather off the mark, since no solicitor would sit down to even talk to you on the phone for five minutes about your case without a meter running.


I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous in the extreme. EVERY profession does this in one way or another. Solicitors and other charge-by-the-hour professionals will charge by the hour (including preparation of their equivalents of quotes, like the section 67 letters for solicitors). Architects, engineers and other professionals who work on a project basis want to know the budget right from the offing because it is a fundamental piece of the specification for the work. You want to do X. Solutions 1, 2 and 3 cost different amounts, take different amounts of time and so forth. The budget is an immensely important piece of information for those professionals when preparing tenders and quotes.


That's a very unlikely scenario as if you could tell them what you needed with the degree of accuracy required that they didn't need a budget, you'd probably be qualified or experienced in their profession. Except for solicitors, who charge by the hour and have slightly different rules, but even there for large cases, they're going to have a version of the budget conversation too (when they say "this will cost X, do you want to proceed").


I promise you, if that is how you think when hiring a professional, and you want free work done, you will be regarded by the professionals you approach in a very poor light indeed.
Which perhaps speaks to the question you asked at the start about why developers often - if not always - have such a poor view of their clients...

Go and read the threads on the taxation, accountancy and legal forums and come back and tell me there's no advice being sought. The disclaimers are just and arse covering exercise. I also work in said professions and the concept of the billable hour is gone, free consultations are the norm. Construction, architects etc operate on the same basis, I would like to procure your service, how much will it cost. Your attitude reminds me of this:

Sparks

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Your attitude reminds me of this:

Honestly, with neither sarcasm or irony, I no longer know if you're posting as a parody account or not anymore.

The Corinthian

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

I also work in said professions and the concept of the billable hour is gone, free consultations are the norm. Construction, architects etc operate on the same basis, I would like to procure your service, how much will it cost.

Now, the billable hour is not quite gone. 'Free' consultations are a marketing tool, designed to demonstrate the responders experience and knowledge in the hope that the questioner decides to engage them. Once they do, they will start charging.

Software development works on the same way as lawyers, accountants in this regard. However, consider also the differences.

To begin with you're not going to get a request for a fixed price on a court case - the closest you might get is a 'no fowl no fee' deal requested and if no one wants to take that up you don't get the same level of indignation as you do from posters who don't get their fixed price quote for an IT job, especially here.

As to asking what the budget is, I personally would avoid this direct approach with a client, but I'd still be seeking to assess what it is nonetheless (just as any professional will be trying to assess if you can afford the work or will they be chasing you up for payment in six months).

Budget is important because, to begin with, when you design, let alone develop, a solution for your client you have various options open to you. Do you develop a bespoke Web site (more expensive) or use an out of the box CMS (less expensive)? If using such a CMS, how much modification (modification = coding = time = money) of it is possible to get the desired, rather than 'close enough', functionality? Will design and branding be custom (hire a designer for the job) or stock images and templates? And finally, is their budget so small that they'd be lucky to get it done by someone in India, let alone someone in Ireland?

So budget, or at least for the developer/designer to have a good idea of the budget, is important, because they can deliver the best they can and that the client can afford - or at least tell them early on that they don't want to take on the project.

There's a lot of tyre-kickers out there who waste the time of IT professionals. Probably much more than in professions such as law or accountancy. There's numerous reasons for this; lack of a formal profession and standards (allowing for cheap freelancers - bottom feeders and students - to undercut the professionals; would-be clients always remember hearing of their low rates, but seldom hear of how they make a pigs ear of everything), outsourcing to the developing World and even the fact that you can deliver a project 'on the cheap' if you are willing to lower your expectations.

I've lost count how many I've met (offline) who will literally try to send you piles of work and when you reach a point where you feel you've demonstrated your skills and good will and point out that realistically you have to go on the clock, will either vanish or come back with some snotty reply about trust or how they're still deciding or whatever.

So everyone uses 'free advice' as a means to bring in clients, but only in IT do alleged would-be clients expect that they can get 80 hours of free consultancy if they can get away with it or if they buy you lunch.

Your attitude reminds me of this:

Like Sparks, I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. If you are then that whooshing sound you hear was the point made in that strip flying over your head.

If you were to go to an architect or builder and ask for an estimate for building a house, without any details, what do you think will be their reaction? Even if details are given, if vague they can be dangerously inaccurate if something important has been omitted. And what defines 'something important'? Unfortunately the client isn't the expert on this, the developer is.

For example, in another thread, someone sought a quote on an app. Because their grasp of technology was limited, they didn't think about the fact that what they wanted would require an n-tier set-up, that it an app and a Web site to handle central data transactions. Suddenly the estimate expands accordingly. Then of course it didn't occur to them either that this Web site would require an administration interface - easy peesy? Well yes and no, it's not rocket science for a good developer, but it is laborious, so that would represent a significant boating of the estimate.

To be able to have a valid estimate, you really need to think through what you are going to need, or to work through it with a developer. Many 'ideas men' don't bother doing they former, in their enthusiasm to get to market and the amount of time required to properly interface with a client to get that information is more than most developers are willing to do 'for free'.

And on top of this, he was convinced that he'd still be able to get it done, and a commercially viable product delivered, via outsourcing to India, for €1,000. He won't, even at their rates.

So what happened was that he couldn't get his estimate because he'd not really through through what he wanted. Pissed off that people told him this, he'll now go to a site like Elance, engage someone at $12 p.h. with the same approach, and by the time something gets delivered within his budget (which won't happen and he'll probably through good money after bad rather than admit failure), it'll be commercially unusable. Not that anyone will even know about it, because he won't have considered marketing until he starts noticing that no one is going to his new site or downloading his app.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Corinthian wrote: »

Now, the billable hour is not quite gone. 'Free' consultations are a marketing tool, designed to demonstrate the responders experience and knowledge in the hope that the questioner decides to engage them. Once they do, they will start charging.

Software development works on the same way as lawyers, accountants in this regard. However, consider also the differences.

To begin with you're not going to get a request for a fixed price on a court case - the closest you might get is a 'no fowl no fee' deal requested and if no one wants to take that up you don't get the same level of indignation as you do from posters who don't get their fixed price quote for an IT job, especially here.

As to asking what the budget is, I personally would avoid this direct approach with a client, but I'd still be seeking to assess what it is nonetheless (just as any professional will be trying to assess if you can afford the work or will they be chasing you up for payment in six months).

Budget is important because, to begin with, when you design, let alone develop, a solution for your client you have various options open to you. Do you develop a bespoke Web site (more expensive) or use an out of the box CMS (less expensive)? If using such a CMS, how much modification (modification = coding = time = money) of it is possible to get the desired, rather than 'close enough', functionality? Will design and branding be custom (hire a designer for the job) or stock images and templates? And finally, is their budget so small that they'd be lucky to get it done by someone in India, let alone someone in Ireland?

So budget, or at least for the developer/designer to have a good idea of the budget, is important, because they can deliver the best they can and that the client can afford - or at least tell them early on that they don't want to take on the project.

There's a lot of tyre-kickers out there who waste the time of IT professionals. Probably much more than in professions such as law or accountancy. There's numerous reasons for this; lack of a formal profession and standards (allowing for cheap freelancers - bottom feeders and students - to undercut the professionals; would-be clients always remember hearing of their low rates, but seldom hear of how they make a pigs ear of everything), outsourcing to the developing World and even the fact that you can deliver a project 'on the cheap' if you are willing to lower your expectations.

I've lost count how many I've met (offline) who will literally try to send you piles of work and when you reach a point where you feel you've demonstrated your skills and good will and point out that realistically you have to go on the clock, will either vanish or come back with some snotty reply about trust or how they're still deciding or whatever.

So everyone uses 'free advice' as a means to bring in clients, but only in IT do alleged would-be clients expect that they can get 80 hours of free consultancy if they can get away with it or if they buy you lunch.

Like Sparks, I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. If you are then that whooshing sound you hear was the point made in that strip flying over your head.

If you were to go to an architect or builder and ask for an estimate for building a house, without any details, what do you think will be their reaction? Even if details are given, if vague they can be dangerously inaccurate if something important has been omitted. And what defines 'something important'? Unfortunately the client isn't the expert on this, the developer is.

For example, in another thread, someone sought a quote on an app. Because their grasp of technology was limited, they didn't think about the fact that what they wanted would require an n-tier set-up, that it an app and a Web site to handle central data transactions. Suddenly the estimate expands accordingly. Then of course it didn't occur to them either that this Web site would require an administration interface - easy peesy? Well yes and no, it's not rocket science for a good developer, but it is laborious, so that would represent a significant boating of the estimate.

To be able to have a valid estimate, you really need to think through what you are going to need, or to work through it with a developer. Many 'ideas men' don't bother doing they former, in their enthusiasm to get to market and the amount of time required to properly interface with a client to get that information is more than most developers are willing to do 'for free'.

And on top of this, he was convinced that he'd still be able to get it done, and a commercially viable product delivered, via outsourcing to India, for €1,000. He won't, even at their rates.

So what happened was that he couldn't get his estimate because he'd not really through through what he wanted. Pissed off that people told him this, he'll now go to a site like Elance, engage someone at $12 p.h. with the same approach, and by the time something gets delivered within his budget (which won't happen and he'll probably through good money after bad rather than admit failure), it'll be commercially unusable. Not that anyone will even know about it, because he won't have considered marketing until he starts noticing that no one is going to his new site or downloading his app.

Ok then, so for all the web developers/freelancer, this November when you go to your accountant and you ask him to file your tax return, what would you say if the first question he asked you was "what's your budget?"

fergalr

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Ok then, so for all the web developers/freelancer, this November when you go to your accountant and you ask him to file your tax return, what would you say if the first question he asked you was "what's your budget?"

The accountant doesn't need to ask that, because both parties understand roughly the amount of work involved in a tax return - to within the same ballpark. Furthermore, the accountant knows that the customer will probably expect to pay about what the tax return will cost.

Accountants do not frequently have people looking for 6 months work for a few hundred euro. If they did, they would adopt some way of qualifying their customers.


Haven't you learned this from the posts people have taken the time to write to you?
What do you do for a living? I'll see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense to you.

Colonel Panic

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Ok then, so for all the web developers/freelancer, this November when you go to your accountant and you ask him to file your tax return, what would you say if the first question he asked you was "what's your budget?"

Did you even read his post?

v638sg7k1a92bx

fergalr wrote: »

The accountant doesn't need to ask that, because both parties understand roughly the amount of work involved in a tax return - to within the same ballpark. Furthermore, the accountant knows that the customer will probably expect to pay about what the tax return will cost.

Accountants do not frequently have people looking for 6 months work for a few hundred euro. If they did, they would adopt some way of qualifying their customers.


Haven't you learned this from the posts people have taken the time to write to you?
What do you do for a living? I'll see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense to you.

Therein lies the problem, you have just displayed the exact same attitude that you criticize when it comes to purveyors of your services. You just stated that you think you know "roughly" what's involved when it comes to preparing your tax return but the reality is you don't. But for some reason developers and freelancers think that they have these unique set of problems and yet don't see the irony when they display the exact same level of ignorance for which they pour scorn over when on the receiving end.
For example, how often do we see threads or posts on this forum about how the industry is being devalued by elance, 99designs, outsourcing etc and yet in the same breadth the same freelancers have no hesitation in using taxback.com, online tax return for €99 etc. It's a joke!

Calina

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Therein lies the problem, you have just displayed the exact same attitude that you criticize when it comes to purveyors of your services. You just stated that you think you know "roughly" what's involved when it comes to preparing your tax return but the reality is you don't. But for some reason developers and freelancers think that they have these unique set of problems and yet don't see the irony when they display the exact same level of ignorance for which they pour scorn over when on the receiving end.
For example, how often do we see threads or posts on this forum about how the industry is being devalued by elance, 99designs, outsourcing etc and yet in the same breadth the same freelancers have no hesitation in using taxback.com, online tax return for €99 etc. It's a joke!

For the most part, the deliverable for a tax return is fairly measurable. The deliverable for a vague idea is not.

Not only that, with the best will in the world, no one says to an accountant that their nephew took an arithmetic class in 2nd year and can knock out a tax return like that. The design community often gets "my nephew took a HTML class and can do that website for nothing or "for the experience".

fergalr

Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »

Therein lies the problem, you have just displayed the exact same attitude that you criticize when it comes to purveyors of your services. You just stated that you think you know "roughly" what's involved when it comes to preparing your tax return but the reality is you don't. But for some reason developers and freelancers think that they have these unique set of problems and yet don't see the irony when they display the exact same level of ignorance for which they pour scorn over when on the receiving end.
For example, how often do we see threads or posts on this forum about how the industry is being devalued by elance, 99designs, outsourcing etc and yet in the same breadth the same freelancers have no hesitation in using taxback.com, online tax return for €99 etc. It's a joke!

No, you are wrong, and worse, you aren't listening, so you aren't becoming less wrong.

I've a pretty good idea what's involved in my tax return, last year say. I know that if I go to an accountant, I'll expect to pay somewhere between 500 euro and 5000 euro; and probably much closer to the left of the scale. This will be roughly the case across all non high-net-worth individuals, as long as they don't have anything particularly messy going on. (And if they have something particular messy 'actually, I sold 3 companies last year etc.' they'll probably know about it.)

I know that there's almost zero probability that if I go to my accountant and ask for a quote for a tax return, that the accountant will turn around and say, "actually, what you are actually asking for there, is going to cost about 5,000,000 euro to do".

I'd even be fairly shocked to be quoted 50,000 for a tax return, or 500,000.

People asking for Apps built FREQUENTLY budget 500 euro when the real cost is 50,000 - 500,000.

I.e. they can frequently be off by a factor of 1000.

That's just different than with tax returns.

Tell me I'm wrong.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Calina wrote: »

For the most part, the deliverable for a tax return is fairly measurable. The deliverable for a vague idea is not.

This just reinforces my point, tax returns can vary hugely depending on a range of different scenarios depending on marital status, no of children, residency, sources of income, health etc etc etc. This is exactly my point, why is it you feel that you can pre-empt what's involved in preparing a tax return yet others can't when it comes to app/web development?

Calina wrote: »

Not only that, with the best will in the world, no one says to an accountant that their nephew took an arithmetic class in 2nd year and can knock out a tax return like that. The design community often gets "my nephew took a HTML class and can do that website for nothing or "for the experience".

Respectfully, nowhere is this more prominent in the accountancy. Every small business owner thinks their wife or daughter is a book keeper and will expect a reduction in the fee. I'd say most of the freelancers on here think they give their accountant a spreadsheet with a nice tidy bow wrapped around it just because they use one of the umpteen free invoicing tools that are out there.

v638sg7k1a92bx

fergalr wrote: »

No, you are wrong, and worse, you aren't listening, so you aren't becoming less wrong.

I've a pretty good idea what's involved in my tax return, last year say. I know that if I go to an accountant, I'll expect to pay somewhere between 500 euro and 5000 euro; and probably much closer to the left of the scale. This will be roughly the case across all non high-net-worth individuals, as long as they don't have anything particularly messy going on. (And if they have something particular messy 'actually, I sold 3 companies last year etc.' they'll probably know about it.)

I know that there's almost zero probability that if I go to my accountant and ask for a quote for a tax return, that the accountant will turn around and say, "actually, what you are actually asking for there, is going to cost about 5,000,000 euro to do".

I'd even be fairly shocked to be quoted 50,000 for a tax return, or 500,000.

People asking for Apps built FREQUENTLY budget 500 euro when the real cost is 50,000 - 500,000.

I.e. they can frequently be off by a factor of 1000.

That's just different than with tax returns.

Tell me I'm wrong.

Respectfully, you're wrong. For every developer that is approached by an "entrepreneur" about the next facebook, or linkedin multiply that by ten for every accountant that has been approached about a half ass idea for a restaurant, sweet shop, retail outlet, and basically any business idea you can conceive. How does an accountant possibly quote for these types of jobs? Why do posters on this forum think that they have a unique set of circumstances compared to any other profession?

My opinion is that, web development, design and services around the internet in general are all relatively new services compared to law, tax, accounting, architecture. As a result, there's no real professional membership with any type of clout for regulating these professions and because of the nature of the internet and the concept of open source, this would be an anathema to many people in the profession anyway. Therefore we get these hordes of freelancers who have no concept of what professional services really entails and ultimately we end up with forums like these with disgruntled posters cribbing about how their clients don't value them.