Boards 5k plan by debate

ecoli

Following on from a previous thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72532515

Hasn't been a good training thread in a bit so I thought given that alot are turning to the shorter distances these days there may be some interest this sort of discussion.

Main rules
- Back up points with reasoning (doesn't have to be evidence simple why you feel would work etc)
- Try to stick to one question at a time to prevent cross over discussion (as best possible)


I will leave the first question open for anyone to start on

adrian522

Question : How long should your long run be when training for the 5km distance?

drquirky

adrian522 wrote: »

Question : How long should your long run be when training for the 5km distance?

At least 90 mins

adrian522

drquirky wrote: »

At least 90 mins

So would 90 mins be as much as you should do before it becomes counter productive? For me 90 Mins would be less than 9 miles at easy pace.

Stazza

drquirky wrote: »

At least 90 mins

I tend to agree with this but I've been questioning this myself. Why do you need to go and run 90 mins at a slowish pace? Would you not benefit more by turning the 'long run' into some sort of session? Eg, instead of plodding around at whatever is the common Sunday morning pace, why not throw in 2x15 min Lactate Threshold or do 10x3 mins @ LT effort off 30 sec rec or maybe 8 miles @ high end aerobic pace/Aerobic Threshold? This way, you're still getting in the perfunctory 90mins but now you're getting a lot more out of the run. Then, take two days or whatever to recover and now, instead of doing what you did on Sunday, you can now hit another energy system.

Just an idea...

Cona

I started looking at my 5k, shorter distance times a few months back as I wasn't really getting any faster. I was hovering around 21.30 for a 5k and I was suspecting my training to be the cause i.e too many easy runs and not improving my Vo2 max or lactate threshold. My mileage was around 30 - 35 miles per week with mostly easy running

I googled 'how to run sub 20 5k' and came across the below link:
http://the5krunner.com/2011/08/22/5k-sub-20-minute-5k-running-and-training-plan

Basically its 3 exhausting exercises per week along with a long hard run of 90 minutes. Personally, these sessions have definitely helped me. I used to struggle to run a 6.45 interval mile while now I am running around 6 minutes flat (for one mile only). I expect my next attempt at sub 20 5k will come very close but I definitely expect to break it this summer

Krusty_Clown

Stazza wrote: »

I tend to agree with this but I've been questioning this myself. Why do you need to go and run 90 mins at a slowish pace? Would you not benefit more by turning the 'long run' into some sort of session? Eg, instead of plodding around at whatever is the common Sunday morning pace, why not throw in 2x15 min Lactate Threshold or do 10x3 mins @ LT effort off 30 sec rec or maybe 8 miles @ high end aerobic pace/Aerobic Threshold? This way, you're still getting in the perfunctory 90mins but now you're getting a lot more out of the run. Then, take two days or whatever to recover and now, instead of doing what you did on Sunday, you can now hit another energy system.

Just an idea...

Pretty much what's advocated by Magness (though he goes a little longer). Many of the runs have a little 'sumpin'. For example:
14 miles with 6x30 sec surges
14 miles with 5 mins pickup
13 miles with strides

Just adding 'anything' to the long run makes you focus on your pace a little more, rather than just plodding out the miles. When they're this duration, they don't have to be done slow either. They can be at steady pace (for me around threshold + 1 minute/mile),

Cona

What would you consider to be the best training workout to give an indicative time for a 5k?

E.g 3 x 1m @ target race pace off 2 minute recovery

statss

Out of interested Daniels has the longs runs in his 5k -10k plan (40-50mpw) in the new book as 120 minutes or 25% of weekly mileage, whichever is less.

RayCun

statss wrote: »

Out of interested Daniels has the longs runs in his 5k -10k plan (40-50mpw) in the new book as 120 minutes or 25% of weekly mileage, whichever is less.

10-12 miles, basically?

Stazza

Cona wrote: »

What would you consider to be the best training workout to give an indicative time for a 5k?

E.g 3 x 1m @ target race pace off 2 minute recovery

4x1600m off 90 secs walk/jog rec will tell you exactly where you are in terms of 5k fitness.

Sacksian

It depends on whether your long run is one of your "quality" days.

It's not one of mine but I do one because I like going for a longer easy run on a Sunday morning - I run it very, very easy.

I'd sacrifice a dedicated "long run" day for something else if I was looking at how to structure my week for 5k training with 3 quality days. However, as others have suggested, there are programmes where it's more of a focus but, for me, it's just the bookend of the week.

Also, in terms of the wider discussion, I don't think any single training element - in isolation - is fundamental to running a fast 5k. It will depend very much on your own preferences and the type of training you respond to (not everyone responds equally to the same type of training). I don't get a lot out of continuous tempos so I do longer intervals instead.

In my experience, the key to running a good 5k is being used to running 5k effort comfortably. If I can do 16 x 400s smoothly with short rests (30s/45s) and be able to finish the last couple strongly, I know I'm in good nick.

Calvin Johnson

So there would be no point running 20 miles during a 5km training period?

AuldManKing

Question: How many weeks should the 5k training plan be for the following;

(a) Just off a spring marathon and filling in time before next marathon cycle.
(b) Specific dedicated 5k training (middle distance athletes &/or not doing Marathon)
(c) Novice runners.

Should they be different?

Some people on here advocate the 'endless season' approach advocated by Joe Rubio, so just a bit of sharpening required - others like the structure of a specific 'longer' plan.
Some advocate a total change in training stimulus at certain times in the year.

Krusty_Clown

Calvin Johnson wrote: »

So there would be no point running 20 miles during a 5km training period?

Only for ritual self-abuse.

My ultimate goal is the marathon, so I included some longer runs during the base-training period of the plan (18-20 miles), but I can see it being counter-productive to other key sessions.

drquirky

I'm a big fan of the "endless season" to make that work though you have to race a good bit. IMO a lot of people on boards don't race enough- I think 5k is perhaps the best distance to "race into shape" for.

Build the base, run tempos, shorter,quicker reps and do an LSR every week. Race at least once every three weeks and you'll see big improvements - it honestly is fairly straightforward.

Where a lot of people fall down is they run their sessions too fast, races too slow and don't pay attention to properly recovering. My 2 cents...

ger664

drquirky wrote: »

Where a lot of people fall down is they run their sessions too fast, races too slow and don't pay attention to properly recovering. My 2 cents...

Particularity agree with this especially the recovery bit. We make the gains in recovery phase of training. Only recently woke up to this fact after review training log for the last 2 years. Times improved after the training load was reduced for a week or 2.

My Plan now is to have a 5 week cycle 3 weeks high/hard mileage, week easy( mini taper) race and recovery week.

cianc

drquirky wrote: »

I'm a big fan of the "endless season" to make that work though you have to race a good bit.

Got any good links/references? I've seen "endless season" mentioned a few times, and Google turns up some stuff, but is there a particular article you'd recommend?

Cona

In terms of 5k training, is there a particular plan that is highly rated or is it just a case of adding more speed work?

drquirky

cianc wrote: »

Got any good links/references? I've seen "endless season" mentioned a few times, and Google turns up some stuff, but is there a particular article you'd recommend?

This is a good summary... IMO Rubio cuts through some of the overly technical stuff and it's a pretty old school approach in keeping w/ the Bowerman/ Billy Rodgers way of doing things-

http://m.runnersworld.com/race-training/always-ready-race?page=single

Finnt

Stazza wrote: »

4x1600m off 90 secs walk/jog rec will tell you exactly where you are in terms of 5k fitness.

4x1600m at race pace?

drquirky

Finnt wrote: »

4x1600m at race pace?

Yep- if you can hit 4x1600 @ planned 5k race pace you'll hit that in a race w/out the recovery.

i.e I know if I hit avg 5:20 m/m for the session I'll be v. close to that in a 5k.

Finnt

How far out should you do it? A week or more?

clear thinking

I made big progress in 2012 with a phased 5k plan, hit PB's in all over the shop. My idea was to have a change up from the usual marathon stuff, albeit there is still a lot of cross over.

Base phase was 1 VO2 session a week, 1 LSR, 1 XC type race and plenty of strength work (coincided with winter but parkrun fits the bill)

Second, aerobic phase was 2 VO2 sessions, 1 LSR, 1 XC race / hill session and 1 day only of gym / core

Phase 3 was speed specific, 6 sessions a week, no LSR.
Key was the under / over principle, more tailored to 3k or mile, however the endurance built up in earlier phases means it works for 5 k too and is a bit different, no LSR as you'd be knackered. I did this as a block of 4 weeks and in a second go in a block of 6 weeks.

Day 1: Over: build to 13 miles @ LT tempo pace (i started at 5m)
Day 2: Under: mile pace, 400m, 800m, 300m with 30s & 60s rest twice with a lap walk between the 2 sets.
Day 3: Over: 90% VO2 max - v fast 10k (15s/mile quicker than day 1)
Day 4: Under: 4*400, 3m rest @ mile pace less 4s per 400 - eg 5 min mile = 75s lap, so this session should be 4 * 71 second laps
Day 5: 5*1k, 1m rest - w/in 5% of 5k race pace, or 4*1500/mile at same
Day 7: race 800m, miles, 3ks, or speed session 350m, 300m, 250m, 200m, 150m with 400m walk in between.

Clipped about 45s off my 5k pb and had a bonus 50s knocked off my 10k pb.

Finnt

I did the 4x1600m reps today, (well 4x1mile),
Average was 6:44 for the 4, I should be in sub 21min shape?

slingerz

Surely a 5k plan depends on the individual involved and their capabilities.

I know that some of the plans thrown out here would be too much for a novice like myself.

I think for someone who can finish a 5K but has a time greater than 25mins needs to have 5 runs a week with only 1 of them being a speed workout and 1 being a 'LSR' in order to build fitness and endurance. the other three outings so be pretty much recovery/easy runs in order to build stamina and enjoyment of running.

once that phase is complete and the person has improved their times over a period of say 3 months then perhaps its worth tweaking the plan to include some more pace runs in there.

Krusty_Clown

Finnt wrote: »

I did the 4x1600m reps today, (well 4x1mile),
Average was 6:44 for the 4, I should be in sub 21min shape?

There are no certainties or guarantees, but like DrQ said, if I could manage 4 x 1 mile @5k, I'd be pretty confident of holding that pace for 5k.

drquirky

Finnt wrote: »

I did the 4x1600m reps today, (well 4x1mile),
Average was 6:44 for the 4, I should be in sub 21min shape?

Good session. How was the 4th rep? Any significant fading?

drquirky

slingerz wrote: »

Surely a 5k plan depends on the individual involved and their capabilities.

I know that some of the plans thrown out here would be too much for a novice like myself.

I think for someone who can finish a 5K but has a time greater than 25mins needs to have 5 runs a week with only 1 of them being a speed workout and 1 being a 'LSR' in order to build fitness and endurance. the other three outings so be pretty much recovery/easy runs in order to build stamina and enjoyment of running.

once that phase is complete and the person has improved their times over a period of say 3 months then perhaps its worth tweaking the plan to include some more pace runs in there.

Agreed....tbh novice runners will get faster just by running more!

Krusty_Clown

slingerz wrote: »

Surely a 5k plan depends on the individual involved and their capabilities.

Of course. That's why one should customize a plan to suit one's own needs. The purpose of this thread isn't to create custom plans for each individual, but rather to suggest specific sessions and a broad structure that will advance a runner towards the goal of achieving a solid 5k. You look at the advice, you take on board what you feel would be useful, and disregard anything that you feel is not in line with your current capability.

slingerz

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Of course. That's why one should customize a plan to suit one's own needs. The purpose of this thread isn't to create custom plans for each individual, but rather to suggest specific sessions and a broad structure that will advance a runner towards the goal of achieving a solid 5k. You look at the advice, you take on board what you feel would be useful, and disregard anything that you feel is not in line with your current capability.

i agree with you totally i just wanted to clarify that some of those speed session look a bit intense to me as regards where I am now at the moment.

I am looking at doing 6 months solid work around a 5K base which would include a few 5mile and 10K races in there too but ultimately the 5K PB time is the focus really.

The long term hope is that I get to a base level that allows me to complete 10mile and half marathons without being overly worried about the distance involved and that will hopefully bring me forward to having a crack off a marathon at some point

Krusty_Clown

slingerz wrote: »

i agree with you totally i just wanted to clarify that some of those speed session look a bit intense to me as regards where I am now at the moment.

I am looking at doing 6 months solid work around a 5K base which would include a few 5mile and 10K races in there too but ultimately the 5K PB time is the focus really.

The long term hope is that I get to a base level that allows me to complete 10mile and half marathons without being overly worried about the distance involved and that will hopefully bring me forward to having a crack off a marathon at some point

Some of them though (like for example the 4 x 1 mile @5k), scale very well, regardless of the level of experience of the runner. But yes, obviously, if you haven't previously targeted longer distances, then 10-13 mile long runs wouldn't be suitable.

Finnt

drquirky wrote: »

Good session. How was the 4th rep? Any significant fading?

Thanks! The splits were 6:41 6:44 6:47 6:44, happy that the 4th wasn't the slowest but would be happier if the 3rd was a little quicker!

RayCun

bringing this one back from the dead...

Any more specific sessions for 5k training?
Krusty, any sessions that stood out from Magness, or would it be a mistake to take any of them in isolation?

ECOLII

RayCun wrote: »

Krusty, any sessions that stood out from Magness, or would it be a mistake to take any of them in isolation?

Definitely interested in your feedback here. Nearly finished the book myself and has definitely peaked my interest for when indoors is over. Also had a quick run through your log on it.

Any aspects you felt really worked? Anything you would change this time around?

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

bringing this one back from the dead...

Any more specific sessions for 5k training?
Krusty, any sessions that stood out from Magness, or would it be a mistake to take any of them in isolation?

I think in other plans you can get away with transplanting particular sessions into your own plan, but with Magness' 5k plan less so, as it takes a bottom up approach (shorter faster work transitioning to longer race pace sessions).

Some of the useful sessions that are more aligned with race-specific pace (that should be relatively achievable if you are approaching readiness for your goal):
3 x (4 x 400m @5k)
4-5 x (400m @5k/800m @steady)
4 x (600m @5k / 600m steady)
2 x (800m, 800m, 400m @5k)
2 x (800, 1k, 400 @5k)
4 x (800m @5k, 400m steady)

The other sessions in Magness' plan make all of the above easier, but there's some good stuff there to help you get closer to your goal.

By the way, here's the plan in question:
Base Period
Pre-competition
Competition

The above should provide additional context (e.g. recoveries). You need to do 'something', to supplement the race-pace specific work, and the approach that Magness takes is hills/strength, long runs with stuff, and faster work (1 mile - 3k pace). All in all, it's a good package and if you haven't done anything similar in the past, will likely see significant gains at the 5k distance by following the plan with minor adaptations to suit your own specific strengths. If the plan is only to extract key sessions, then I'd stay away from any of his stuff that is faster than 5k, unless it's something you have already been doing.

Krusty_Clown

ECOLII wrote: »

Definitely interested in your feedback here. Nearly finished the book myself and has definitely peaked my interest for when indoors is over. Also had a quick run through your log on it.

Any aspects you felt really worked? Anything you would change this time around?

I followed the plan pretty close to verbatim, just shuffling stuff around to suit races etc. I really wouldn't change that much, as honestly, so much of it was new to me, that it was always interesting. Might be different for a seasoned coached runner. If I had to change stuff it would be more environmental, rather than plan-based (e.g. try to get some group sessions going on, time on track etc as hitting some of those paces on tarmac/cinder was pretty damaging).

The only session that didn't really work for me was the strength endurance hill circuit, but more because I wasn't sure if I was doing it correctly, and felt pretty goofy, bounding hopping and skipping around suburban Dublin country roads. Some of the other reps were hard to accurately establish correct pace (e.g. 500m @3k pace) when running on an unmeasured cinder track, but these aren't faults with the plan.

willowthewisp

Good thread , finding it hard to decipher/tailor the best sub 20 plan for myself.

noway12345

I was looking for info on 5k races and I seen a link for this page. Does anyone know of any free 5k races or runs about? I want to see what time I could get and then try to improve it so I need it timed first.

Myles Splitz

noway12345 wrote: »

I was looking for info on 5k races and I seen a link for this page. Does anyone know of any free 5k races or runs about? I want to see what time I could get and then try to improve it so I need it timed first.

Park runs held every Saturday morning across the country.

http://www.parkrun.ie/

RICHIE-RICH

noway12345 wrote: »

I was looking for info on 5k races and I seen a link for this page. Does anyone know of any free 5k races or runs about? I want to see what time I could get and then try to improve it so I need it timed first.

Parkrun.ie
Free
Weekly
Timed

If you partake, please volunteer to give something back.

noway12345

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Park runs held every Saturday morning across the country.

http://www.parkrun.ie/

That's exactly what I wanted. You're some man Myles Splitz.

noway12345

RICHIE-RICH wrote: »

Parkrun.ie
Free
Weekly
Timed

If you partake, please volunteer to give something back.

How can you volunteer if you partake? Not trying to be smart I'm just wondering how can you help if you're racing?

RICHIE-RICH

noway12345 wrote: »

How can you volunteer if you partake? Not trying to be smart I'm just wondering how can you help if you're racing?

You run most weeks but are available to volunteer to help out every 6 weeks or so.

By partaking I meant joining the "movement" that is local parkrun.
Its a community type affair, so if you join and do some runs, you should give back and volunteer some of your time.
The people organising it are giving their time for free, no-one makes any money from the parkruns, so volunteering is the way to pay back/pay it forward, and then these volunteers will get a chance to have a run.

MrMacPhisto

noway12345 wrote: »

How can you volunteer if you partake? Not trying to be smart I'm just wondering how can you help if you're racing?

You can volunteer to help in the course set-up or close-down. That way you can still run and give something back in one fell swoop

noway12345

RICHIE-RICH wrote: »

You run most weeks but are available to volunteer to help out every 6 weeks or so.

By partaking I meant joining the "movement" that is local parkrun.
Its a community type affair, so if you join and do some runs, you should give back and volunteer some of your time.
The people organising it are giving their time for free, no-one makes any money from the parkruns, so volunteering is the way to pay back/pay it forward, and then these volunteers will get a chance to have a run.

Oh I see what you mean now. And how many volunteers would one of these races need? I looked on the website and they seem to be exactly the same everywhere (same day and start time), I assume some races would need more volunteers than others. I'd happily volunteer, it sounds like a good system.

noway12345

MrMacPhisto wrote: »

You can volunteer to help in the course set-up or close-down. That way you can still run and give something back in one fell swoop

That's good thinking.

RICHIE-RICH

noway12345 wrote: »

Oh I see what you mean now. And how many volunteers would one of these races need? I looked on the website and they seem to be exactly the same everywhere (same day and start time), I assume some races would need more volunteers than others. I'd happily volunteer, it sounds like a good system.

9:30 Saturday -Most parkruns worldwide start at this time (some earlier to beat the heat) Finish by 10 and rest of the day is free

There is a volunteer email address on the individual parkrun pages which you can contact.
I'm sure that if you volunteer, you will used. At Cork parkru, i'd say there is 8-10 per week?

noway12345

RICHIE-RICH wrote: »

9:30 Saturday -Most parkruns worldwide start at this time (some earlier to beat the heat) Finish by 10 and rest of the day is free

There is a volunteer email address on the individual parkrun pages which you can contact.
I'm sure that if you volunteer, you will used. At Cork parkru, i'd say there is 8-10 per week?

Cracking stuff. Just to let you know I'm planning to be finished by 9.50!!!

woody1

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I think in other plans you can get away with transplanting particular sessions into your own plan, but with Magness' 5k plan less so, as it takes a bottom up approach (shorter faster work transitioning to longer race pace sessions).

Some of the useful sessions that are more aligned with race-specific pace (that should be relatively achievable if you are approaching readiness for your goal):
3 x (4 x 400m @5k)
4-5 x (400m @5k/800m @steady)
4 x (600m @5k / 600m steady)
2 x (800m, 800m, 400m @5k)
2 x (800, 1k, 400 @5k)
4 x (800m @5k, 400m steady)

The other sessions in Magness' plan make all of the above easier, but there's some good stuff there to help you get closer to your goal.

By the way, here's the plan in question:
Base Period
Pre-competition
Competition

The above should provide additional context (e.g. recoveries). You need to do 'something', to supplement the race-pace specific work, and the approach that Magness takes is hills/strength, long runs with stuff, and faster work (1 mile - 3k pace). All in all, it's a good package and if you haven't done anything similar in the past, will likely see significant gains at the 5k distance by following the plan with minor adaptations to suit your own specific strengths. If the plan is only to extract key sessions, then I'd stay away from any of his stuff that is faster than 5k, unless it's something you have already been doing.

jesus im tired just reading that.. like everyone im looking for a plan / magic bullet to knock another bit off my 5k but thats a lot of running.. or maybe not , probable that i just do eff all realistically, anyway to get to the point, without having to trail through your log Krusty, what kind of improvement did you get out of it..