European Law Says Illegal To Sieze Untaxed Cars!

SupraSonic_26

Has anyone else read this artical very interesting why hasnt hit the news like would you try it if it was you:

A CO Donegal man whose son took on Gardaí in court after his car was seized and won says more motorists need to legally challenge the practice.
John Doherty spoke out after both Customs and Gardaí seized a total of 60 vehicles across the county in the past three weeks.
The Customs seizures related to UK-registered vehicles which hadn’t Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT) paid. The Garda seizures related mainly to non-payment of road tax.
But despite losing a court case five years ago over the practice, Gardaí are continuing to seize vehicles.
John’s son John Jnr had his car seized in Letterkenny five years ago. It was registered in Northern Ireland at the time.
“The garda in the case said he was seizing John’s car under Section 139 of the 1992 Finance Act,” said John Snr who is part of the Irish Drivers Association lobby group.
“John replied that by taking his car the garda was in breach of his rights under European Law, specifically articles 25 and 39 of the Treaty of Rome; that gardai would be in breach of his rights on freedom of movement as well as in breach of diue process under the Irish Constitution.
“This effectively says that seizure of goods more than the amount allegedly owed to the State is illegal.”
John Snr also confronted Gardai who said his son had a Republic of Ireland drivers’ license. But he responded that it was a European-wide license, which allows him to hire a car whilst abroad – without breaking any laws.
It took more than two years for the case to get to court where John Jnr rejected a plea bargain offer on charges of resisting arrest and possession of a foreign-registered vehicle.
“The Gardai regretted taking the case to court and offered to drop the resisting arrest charges if the VRT charge was pleaded to but we rejected this,” said John Snr.
“In court we told Judge Kevin Kilrane that John had told the garda on the night that failure to deal with the matter by summons was breaching his rights and the judge agreed.
“He told the garda that in future he should follow due process. The cases were thrown out of court.”
He says the Irish Drivers Association is now advising motorists how to handle a situation where a car is being seized.
“What the association are advising people when confronted by customs or Gardai about car seizures in relation to road tax or customs duties/VRT is simply to inform the respective officer that he/she must follow due process and issue them with a summons,” said John.
“Every officer has a duty of care to uphold that person’s Constitutional rights.
That way they get a fair trial by a court. No roadside penalties should be paid in lieu of going to court. No seizure fee should be paid. By enforcing any of these penalties the State denies you your constitutional right to a fair trial in court.
“This is now a fact and has been proven in Letterkenny Court in the case of DPP v John Doherty. Judge Kilrane told the Garda that it was a draconian measure to lift anyone’s car on the roadside. Striking out the case, the judge told the Garda ‘in future guard, follow due process’.”
Due Process – the law
This is the guidance given to motorists from the Irish Drivers Association:
Irish constitutional law
1. The 3rd amendment to the constitution. Ireland’s accession to Europe. Known as the 1972 European Communities Act. This is where the Gov of 1992 signed up to the terms of the treaty of Rome.
2. Constitutional law
The constitution is the highest law in the land and no other acts of law introduced by governments shall supersede same. The constitution can only be changed or amended by the people by means of a referendum.
3. The 1992 Finance Act is an introduction of law which supposedly gives Gardai and Customs the powers of seizure which is contrary to article 15.which states “The Oireachtas shall not enact any law which is in any way repugnant to the constitution or any part thereof.”
4. Article 38 The right to a Fair Trial
Article 38 the right to a fair trial in court by a Judge/ jury. If Gardai and customs start to act as judge jury and executioner on the roadside then we no longer need the courts.
5. Article 37
Every person appointed a judge shall swear an oath to uphold the constitution. And should bring it to the attention of the court where summons are been issued under the 1992 finance act giving powers of seizure is contrary to constitutional law.
6. Article 43 property rights
Your property is yours and can not be seized detained or otherwise unless on foot of a court order signed by a Judge not a ( court clerk ) in other words if it’s not signed by a judge it’s not Valid.
………………………………………………………
European law. Treaty of Rome
European principles of proportionality
A court order can not be issued to collect revenue if the property exceeds that which is due to the state. In short they can only lift to the value of, but not above.
Treaty article 10
Member states shall take appropriate measures to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising out of the treaty.
Article 14
The community shall adopt measures
With the aim of establishing the internal Market over a period expiring on the 31.12.92
Article 25
Customs duties on imports and exports and (charges having equivalent effect) /VRT shall be prohibited between member states.
Article 39. Free movement.
The free movement of goods. Persons. And capital.

Truckermal

Misleading thread title the article is about VRT.

Sobanek

Truckermal wrote: »

Misleading thread title the article is about VRT.

Even better.

Guy:Incognito

This was the straw that that Ryan Stewart guy was trying to cling to to prove vrt was illegal and show how the poor put upon people of inishowen were being victimised by the state for being expected to vrt , tax and nct their cars.

In summary the judge appears to agree that seizing the car is wrong because it's valued more than the vrt that would be due so they should be let on their way and issued with a summons.

not sure how that tallies with it being illegal for a resident to drive a foreign registered car . I'd assume they can seize for that breach of the law instead of saying they are seizing it because vrt wasn't paid?
Or can they follow you around and issue you a summons every day ? How can they be expected to send you on your way breaking the law ( driving a foreign reg car)

BigEejit

Truckermal wrote: »

Misleading thread title the article is about VRT.

“What the association are advising people when confronted by customs or Gardai about car seizures in relation to road tax or customs duties/VRT is simply to inform the respective officer that he/she must follow due process and issue them with a summons,” said John.

Its both road tax and VRT according to John

Truckermal

BigEejit wrote: »

Its both road tax and VRT according to John

It always amazes me that Donegal folk reckon they are exempt from VRT ETC ETC, this is going on for years and ya I know taxes are unfair and all that.

Guy:Incognito

BigEejit wrote: »

Its both road tax and VRT according to John

In their defence, I doubt there's a provision in law allowing for gardai to seize a car with no road tax. But then again they can't issue you a summons for that or fine you either.

SupraSonic_26

Same european law applys for tax aswell its a law that car cannot be taken off you basically.

corktina

the cars aren't seized, they are impounded until they are tax compliant, with charges for towing and storage.

Sobanek

corktina wrote: »

the cars aren't seized, they are impounded until they are tax compliant, with charges for towing and storage.

But Guards and customs always say they're seizing the vehicle under blablabla act, paragraph 64 blah blah.

Coolbreeze2809

The moral of the story. Pay your damn road tax.

debabyjesus

corktina wrote: »

the cars aren't seized, they are impounded until they are tax compliant, with charges for towing and storage.

They reckon its illegal to seize/impound goods of a higher value than the amount you allegedly owe...

Guy:Incognito

debabyjesus wrote: »

They reckon its illegal to seize/impound goods of a higher value than the amount you allegedly owe...

Would that not male every customs holding of goods posted in every country in the Eu illegal going back years?

customs hold packages every day of the week.

Sobanek

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Would that not male every customs holding of goods posted in every country in the Eu illegal going back years?

customs hold packages every day of the week.

But that concerns stuff from outside the EU.

TheHappyChappy

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

This was the straw that that Ryan Stewart guy was trying to cling to to prove vrt was illegal and show how the poor put upon people of inishowen were being victimised by the state for being expected to vrt , tax and nct their cars.

In summary the judge appears to agree that seizing the car is wrong because it's valued more than the vrt that would be due so they should be let on their way and issued with a summons.

not sure how that tallies with it being illegal for a resident to drive a foreign registered car . I'd assume they can seize for that breach of the law instead of saying they are seizing it because vrt wasn't paid?
Or can they follow you around and issue you a summons every day ? How can they be expected to send you on your way breaking the law ( driving a foreign reg car)

WAKE UP & LOOK AROUND YOU

_Kaiser_

So in short then, if a Garda threatens to seize your car because it hasn't been VRT'd or is currently untaxed they legally aren't allowed to but can issue a summons?

Fair enough I guess.. the more interesting part of the story for me is that they already lost this case previously but have continued to seize cars anyway AND the way they tried to harass them into dropping it (resisting arrest etc)

With the recent revelations about practises within the Gardai coupled with lots of similar scandals over the years (and more coming it seems), they have lost all credibility in my opinion and should be disbanded and replaced with a professional, competent and accountable police force - 3 things that you couldn't apply to the current Keystone Cops brigade we're saddled with.

But the Gardai are also just a symptom of a larger problem - I see on the news it's Bus Eireann's turn now - there is something fundamentally rotten at the core of the Irish state and there doesn't seem to be any political will or electoral demand to do anything about it.

punisher5112

Road tax doesn't exist its motor tax.
But the VRT should be scrapped, free movement of goods seems to be different for Ireland we are screwed on everything.

AugustusMinimus

punisher5112 wrote: »

Road tax doesn't exist its motor tax.
But the VRT should be scrapped, free movement of goods seems to be different for Ireland we are screwed on everything.

I'm afraid VRT doesn't limit you ability to move goods around the EU. However it does limit your ability to use and enjoy those goods.

IMO, EU law should be amended to include the terms, use and enjoy but currently this simply isn't the case.

vellakare

If this is the case, its a landmark decision which will benefit the consumer in the long term and get the state to be more efficient in service and taxation. This goes from the field of Health Insurance, Banking, Road and Motor costs, and more besides. Its quite wide ranging in its ramifications.

The problem is the costs of the lawyers to find these loopholes. Joe Soap does'nt consider that possibility.

AugustusMinimus

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Fair enough I guess.. the more interesting part of the story for me is that they already lost this case previously but have continued to seize cars anyway AND the way they tried to harass them into dropping it (resisting arrest etc)

This seems par for the course of policing policy in Ireland. The Gardaí for years knew that they held all the aces and so would threaten defendants to bully their way to whatever result they wanted to achieve.

They obviously knew in 95% of cases, the person would simply back down when being threatened with large fines or possible jail time, even if the person knew none of the events described by the Garda were true.

The days where a Garda's word is taken as being sacrosanct are hopefully over.

blackwhite

Kevin Kilraine's judgements don't have any power of precedent, so his striking out of a case doesn't actually hold any sway as to whether the practice of seizing vehicles is illegal or not.
A link to the actual judgement would be useful.

John Doherty has a habit of giving his "spin" on what others have said, and also has been known to peddle plenty of the type of advice that is discussed in this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056353782

Taking his opinions as gospel without seeing what the actual judgement is a very dangerous game.

Voodoomelon

Maybe I read this wrong.

You get pulled over, your motor tax is 3 months out of date or you haven't VRT'd your car within the correct amount of time. You tell Gardaí to issue you with a summons instead of seizing the vehicle.

So you end up in court instead of having the vehicle taken, with the same penalties applying?

Chimaera

My reading of this is that it's just the manner in which the offence is prosecuted is in question i.e. you're entitled to bring your case to court rather than have your car impounded at the roadside. It doesn't call the validity of VRT itself into question.

VRT is a tax on ownership, similar conceptually to stamp duty on the purchase of a house. It doesn't (at least theoretically) restrict the movement of goods so it's in line with EU law.

Overall, it's a relatively small portion of the country's tax income. Some rough calculations:

In 2013, our total vehicle sales amounted to about 74000 vehicles. Without spending time digging into the figures, lets take the best selling model (VW Golf) as the median, and the most popular variant is likely to be the 1.6 TDI 5-door, coming in around €24000. VRT is 15 % and VAT is 23 %, so they amount to €3600 and €4692 respectively. Over 74000 units, this amounts to ~€266m for VRT and ~€347m for VAT. This leaves a net price around €1.2b total, most of which is going to leave the country.

According to Cartel, there are about 2.2m private vehicles registered here. If one takes a relatively conservative estimate of the average fuel consumption at 6 l/100 km, and assumes an average driving distance of 20 000 km per year, that's about 2.4b litres of fuel sold each year for road use. Dividing the VRT take across that equals about 11 cent/l. I know which I'd prefer.

AugustusMinimus

Chimaera wrote: »

VRT is a tax on ownership, similar conceptually to stamp duty on the purchase of a house. It doesn't (at least theoretically) restrict the movement of goods so it's in line with EU law.

VRT isn't a tax on ownership. In fact, Stamp Duty isn't either.

VRT is simply a tax which must be paid to allow a car to be driven or parked in a public place in Ireland. You still own the item without paying VRT on it.

SupraSonic_26

Im not saying don't pay the tax, im more about say your paid monthly and your 3 weeks out or a month just waiting to get paid so you can tax it, what the judge is saying in what I posted is true the gaurds are acting judge jury and executioner there and then without following proper laws to summons you and defend yourself in a court of law which where the European law I think is staying movement of goods.