Old West Clare railway line.

poppyvally

Would'nt it be a great to make a cycling/walking trail from Ennis to Lahinch & on to Kilrush & Kilkee, seeing as it's already in other scenic areas of the country.

Stellaluna

It would be a great amenity and would surely be great for cycle tourism. The Great Southern Trail on the old Limerick-Tralee line seems to be developing well. They have a 35 km section between Rathkeale and Abbeyfeale open so far, hopefully they'll have the whole 85 km line open as a greenway eventually.

I guess funding is the biggest barrier to opening up the West Clare line. Another issue is reclaiming the land alone the line which might either now be privately owned or at least used by private land owners. This was a problem faced by the Great Sothern Trail despite the land and remaining infrastructure still being owned by C.I.E. Since these lines were closed in 1960 they have been almost completely dismanteled except for the bare track bed. A lot of the bridges/viaducts would need to be reinstated or other type of crossing put in place. There's still a small section of the line in use at Moyasta and I'm not sure what shape the crossing at Poulnasherry bay is in.

I think you can walk along the old line from Kilkee as far as Poulnasherry bay but it's not a purpose made walking route. Hopefully it'll be on the agenda some day!

johnam

The Ennis to Lees Road section is under planning as far as I am aware, this would be used a a route out to the Lees Road sports area from the Tulla Rd area without having to travel into the town.


Also last June Seed Funding was approved for the planning of the West Clare Cycle route.

It would be a great route, and on google maps the whole route can be seen right from the Railway bridge at the start of the Tulla Road through Corrovorin, across to the Gort Road, out past Lees Road, on to Corofin, and on to Ennistymon. At that point you lose it due to cloud cover, but can pick it up the far side of lahinch all the way down to the split at moyasta, and on from there to Kilrush or Kilkee.

If it was developed it would be a great access route for cycling out in the Loop head area. Imagine the potential for cyclist bringing bikes down on the train to Ennis and being able to go from Ennis Station to Kilkee off road with only small gradients, and from there to Loop Head on quiet roads.

Jim Martin

This has been talked about for years but the obstacle of land owners keeps cropping up. Should be completely re-opened as a functional railway which would be an enormous tourist attraction & would complement the Wild Atlantic Way. It's been done dozens of times with great success in the UK & there's no reason why it couldn't be done here - if the will is there & maybe that's the problem!

minnow

Given Leo Varadkar's comments last week, reopening marginal routes won't happen in our lifetimes. Given the poor take-up on the Galway- Limerick route, I can't see Ennis-Kilkee ever happening (and I'm pro-railway but realistic). As mentioned in earlier posts, the fact that sections of the route are now in private hands (and in some cases, built upon) opening the same entire route would be very difficult, but I'm sure sections of it could be made work. It has been done on the old Westport-Achill line to great success.

Last read Eddie Lenihan's book on walking the route from Ennis to Kilkee a couple of years back, well worth reading if you are interested in this route and its history. It highlights the challenges in putting the route back in service.

Clareman

I think I've vented my disgust of the total disregard for the West Clare Railway routes in the past so I don't think there's any need for me to go through that again, could you imagine having a narrow gauge railway going from Limerick to Shannon to Kilkee to Lahinch and back, the whole mid west would be a mecca for commuters, anyway, don't want to get too rantey and give the mods no choice but to ban me.

Unfortunately, as great as it would be to have a cycle path/walk way across the old routes, that's just not going to happen however as the land has been given away, if you want to have a nightmare in Ireland try to do a compulsory purchase or a discussion about a right of way.

dr.fuzzenstein

Clareman wrote: »

I think I've vented my disgust of the total disregard for the West Clare Railway routes in the past so I don't think there's any need for me to go through that again, could you imagine having a narrow gauge railway going from Limerick to Shannon to Kilkee to Lahinch and back, the whole mid west would be a mecca for commuters, anyway, don't want to get too rantey and give the mods no choice but to ban me.

Unfortunately, as great as it would be to have a cycle path/walk way across the old routes, that's just not going to happen however as the land has been given away, if you want to have a nightmare in Ireland try to do a compulsory purchase or a discussion about a right of way.

I thought you did the banning round here!
Totally agree, the entire development of walking routes in Clare (and maybe other places) is just criminally underdeveloped. There is endless scope, but of course what works in the entire developed world won't work in Ireland with the age old excuse "Ireland is different"

relaxed

Clareman wrote: »

, could you imagine having a narrow gauge railway going from Limerick to Shannon to Kilkee to Lahinch and back, the whole mid west would be a mecca for commuters,
.

We already have a heavy gauge from Limerick to Galway and nobody uses it.

A round the world narrow gauge train from Kilkee to Limerick via Lahinch, Ennis and Shannon to carry commuters would have zero passengers and take 3 or 4 hours.

Completely crap idea.

As for a cycleway or walkway thats a dead duck too, 20 or 30 years ago it might have been viable, but at this stage there are so many houses, farms and road widenings built over it, it will never happen.

Clareman

relaxed wrote: »

We already have a heavy gauge from Limerick to Galway and nobody uses it.

A round the world narrow gauge train from Kilkee to Limerick via Lahinch, Ennis and Shannon to carry commuters would have zero passengers and take 3 or 4 hours.

Completely crap idea.

I suppose the DART/LUAS will never take off :eek:

Clareman

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I thought you did the banning round here!
Totally agree, the entire development of walking routes in Clare (and maybe other places) is just criminally underdeveloped. There is endless scope, but of course what works in the entire developed world won't work in Ireland with the age old excuse "Ireland is different"

Not anymore, hung up the banhammer a while ago.

I was in Melbourne years ago and was told about some of the amazing drives around Bells Beach with the 12 Apolostles and all this, must see, I took a couple of days and enjoyed them all, I felt a bit let down but, mainly because I don't think there was anything (except the better weather) that they had that we didn't

dr.fuzzenstein

relaxed wrote: »

We already have a heavy gauge from Limerick to Galway and nobody uses it.

A round the world narrow gauge train from Kilkee to Limerick via Lahinch, Ennis and Shannon to carry commuters would have zero passengers and take 3 or 4 hours.

Completely crap idea.

As for a cycleway or walkway thats a dead duck too, 20 or 30 years ago it might have been viable, but at this stage there are so many houses, farms and road widenings built over it, it will never happen.

Will anyone tell him? OK, I'll do it.
Ahem.
I don't think it was meant as a practical, commuter based idea utilising cutting edge, 21st century transport solutions, more along the lines of a choo-choo ride, i.e extending out the line currently found in Moyasta.
We have the Cliffs, the steam train, lots of old castles, dolphin cruises, surfing, hiking, cycling, potholing, climbing, the pubs (of course), music, landscape and I could go on.
Clare is an unbelievable treasure trove of activities.
Most of which go unregarded, are under-utilised and not used enough in the promotion of Clare abroad.
Whoever is in charge of tourism for Clare seems to tailor it purely towards Americans coming over to play golf.
There is nothing wrong with Americans coming over to play golf, we love them and we want more of them, but there is so much more to Clare and Clare people, to 90%, are completely unaware of it.
What Clare needs now is forward thinking, a bold, risk-taking attitude and some decisive action.
Standing around, looking at your feet saying "Ah Jaysus, this could never work" has never resulted in a successful venture.
NOW is the time! Tourists will be flocking into Shannon airport once more. the last time Clare wasn't even mentioned in the ads. I hope this time we do it better.

We could even do it ourselves, everyone grab a camera, film something that is beautiful and/or extraordinary about Clare and stick it up on YouTube. I will certainly try to do so this summer. With the message "Visit Clare" at the end.
If tourism Ireland cannot do it, we can!

relaxed

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Will anyone tell him? OK, I'll do it.
Ahem.
I don't think it was meant as a practical, commuter based idea utilising cutting edge, 21st century transport solutions, more along the lines of a choo-choo ride, i.e extending out the line currently found in Moyasta.
We have the Cliffs, the steam train, lots of old castles, dolphin cruises, surfing, hiking, cycling, potholing, climbing, the pubs (of course), music, landscape and I could go on.
Clare is an unbelievable treasure trove of activities.
Most of which go unregarded, are under-utilised and not used enough in the promotion of Clare abroad.
Whoever is in charge of tourism for Clare seems to tailor it purely towards Americans coming over to play golf.
There is nothing wrong with Americans coming over to play golf, we love them and we want more of them, but there is so much more to Clare and Clare people, to 90%, are completely unaware of it.
What Clare needs now is forward thinking, a bold, risk-taking attitude and some decisive action.
Standing around, looking at your feet saying "Ah Jaysus, this could never work" has never resulted in a successful venture.
NOW is the time! Tourists will be flocking into Shannon airport once more. the last time Clare wasn't even mentioned in the ads. I hope this time we do it better.

We could even do it ourselves, everyone grab a camera, film something that is beautiful and/or extraordinary about Clare and stick it up on YouTube. I will certainly try to do so this summer. With the message "Visit Clare" at the end.
If tourism Ireland cannot do it, we can!

I suggest you read post #6, where Clareman proposed a narrow gauge commuter train from Kilkee to Limerick, which is what I responded to.

Extending the moyasta operation for tourists is a different proposition entirely but not what was proposed in post #6.

relaxed

Clareman wrote: »

I suppose the DART/LUAS will never take off :eek:

In a built up commuter area yes, with stops every mile or so, but between kilkee and limerick, on a circular route via lahinch, it's not exactly the circle line in London.

dr.fuzzenstein

relaxed wrote: »

I suggest you read post #6, where Clareman proposed a narrow gauge commuter train from Kilkee to Limerick, which is what I responded to.

Extending the moyasta operation for tourists is a different proposition entirely but not what was proposed in post #6.

OK, maybe I misread.
Anyways, apart from that I think that developing as many walkways and cycleways as possible is a complete no brainer.
I know this is one of those things that everyone thinks is a fine idea, as long as said walkers and cyclists stay far away from their own backyard.
The biggest shame about Clare is that so much of the lovely countryside is behind fences with keep out signs on them, but progress is being made.

Henry Ford III

As an aside my house is apparently on the site of the old platform in Lahinch.

whisky_galore

Landowners and funding, they're your two biggest problems. The Kerry projects, which have great potential for long-distance routes are dogged by nimbys and modern day Bull McCabes.

Rebuilding it as a railway is complete pie-in-the-sky. It didn't make money when there was hardly any competition from cars on the road, how could it possibly make money now?

Jim Martin

whisky_galore wrote: »

Landowners and funding, they're your two biggest problems. The Kerry projects, which have great potential for long-distance routes are dogged by nimbys and modern day Bull McCabes.

Rebuilding it as a railway is complete pie-in-the-sky. It didn't make money when there was hardly any competition from cars on the road, how could it possibly make money now?

Then how did the narrow gauge railways in Wales (Ffestiniog/Talyllyn/Vale of Rheidol) manage it - they were in exactly the same boat? Too much negativity in this country - that's why it's destroyed!

whisky_galore

Jim Martin wrote: »

Then how did the narrow gauge railways in Wales (Ffestiniog/Talyllyn/Vale of Rheidol) manage it - they were in exactly the same boat? Too much negativity in this country - that's why it's destroyed!

Comparing Wales and West Clare is like comparing chalk and cheese....

The Welsh ng lines would never have survived but for British (and lets be frank) English enthusiasts, putting their backs AND money into restoration. You wouldn't believe the amount of money that is donated and bequeathed to built and maintain steam railways in the uk and build full size main line steam locomotives. Look up the 'Tornado project' for instance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Peppercorn_Class_A1_60163_Tornado
Irish people are just not interested on the same level, GAA, the gee gees and dhrink are what we excel at. There was a proposal a number of years ago for a national transport museum in Mullingar for rail, road and canal that died a death with political infighting and general indifference.

We clap ourselves on the back by thinking we are somehow 'heritage minded' apart from a few kitchy attractions the likes of Blarney and Bunratty, industrial heritage in particular barely registers on Tourism Ireland's radar and thus gets next to no support. It's all Cliffs of Moher, Book of Kells and Newgrange.

Ireland does not have a heritage lottery fund like the uk, that's why the Downpatrick Railway exists up north and the RPSI (Railway Preservation Soc of Ireland) gets benefits from being a cross border organisation.

You don't have a critical mass of population here like the uk to (a) support by volunteering or (b) support with bums on seats.

In many cases, sucessful preserved railways in the uk were taken over when the rails were still in place, and handed over intact, rather than a greenfield site with plenty engines and carriages that they could use almost straight away. How many West Clare vehicles are currently surviving? Not a whole lot tbf. We were packing emigration boats without an a*se to our trousers when the railways were closing down here, there was disposable income and free time to go volunteering in the uk and again, an interest.

EDIT: The VOR is a bit of a strange one, it would be like CIE/Irish Rail running the West Clare into modern times...it was run by British Rail for the tourist market until privatised in 1989 and never ceased running with the exeption of wartime.

poppyvally

Ye missed my point. I'm talking about a cycling/ pedestrian trail only. Surely that would'nt be that difficult & think of the tourist potential, now that cycling & marathons have become so popular.

whisky_galore

poppyvally wrote: »

Ye missed my point. I'm talking about a cycling/ pedestrian trail only. Surely that would'nt be that difficult & think of the tourist potential, now that cycling & marathons have become so popular.

See my first point? Landowners and money.

The blockaders down in Kerry can't see potential for anything beyond their own little fiefdoms. That said, the trail so far through West Limerick has been helped along the way be less benighted members of the farming community.

However that land was always in CIE ownership, the West Clare has been sold off or otherwise taken over by surrounding landowners as CIE washed their hands of it back in the 60's. A lot of sheds and houses have been built on it in the meantime, embankments levelled and cuttings filled in.

periodictable

Jim Martin wrote: »

This has been talked about for years but the obstacle of land owners keeps cropping up. Should be completely re-opened as a functional railway which would be an enormous tourist attraction & would complement the Wild Atlantic Way. It's been done dozens of times with great success in the UK & there's no reason why it couldn't be done here - if the will is there & maybe that's the problem!

The UK has 70 million people-we have under 5 million, of which more than 1/2 live in the east of the country.
The "obstacle of landowners"...we have pretty strong property rights in this country...for very good reason, and"Should be completely re-opened up..."- you would be in favor of anyone walking through someone's garden?

Jim Martin

I thought CIE still owns the trackbed?

whisky_galore

There might be isolated short stretches that may techically still belong to CIE to this day, but the rest was either sold off to surrounding landowners back in the day or otherwise squatted upon if the offer of purchase was not taken up. The West Clare was closed and an 'abandonment order' drawn up to cut CIE's ties and responsibilites to the former line and any properties against possible claims etc.

The so called Great Western Greenway was quite fortunate to get through with very little fuss, having said that a lot of the land could be best described as being 'marginal' having little value as farmland and situated in largely isolated areas got away with not having sheds/houses extended and built on it. It was abandoned even further backin the 30's, before CIE were even formed.

dr.fuzzenstein

periodictable

Jim Martin wrote: »

I thought CIE still owns the trackbed?

No

Clareman

I would imagine it would be a nightmare to find out who owns the actual land, I don't know if CIE ever fully owned the West Clare, it was put under their control but I wouldn't know if the land was ever fully part of it, there might have been a lot of "right of ways" and local agreements with people done at the time.

The biggest problem with the old West Clare (and other local railways) is that they were just thrown out, instead of just maintaining the tracks, even just keeping the weeds off them, the tracks were literally ripped up the day of the decision to cut it was made.

whisky_galore

The West Clare lands, route, rolling stock, fixtures/fittings, dwelling houses, stations, workshops and misc. buildings, lock, stock and barrel were all transferred to the GSR and later became property of CIE. The railways back then were very meticulous about what they owned, there weren't any agreements written on the back of a fag box.

There were mass closures in the 60's, many can be justified as some branches were just hopelessly uneconomic. At the time the WCR closed it had, in contrast with other places, been brought right up to date with diesel railcars, and more modern stock etc, but the powers that be were just not interested.

Jim Martin

If Ireland's population is 1/15th the size of the UK's, then on the basis of their dozens of lines preserved, we should be able to manage one!

whisky_galore

Jim Martin wrote: »

If Ireland's population is 1/15th the size of the UK's, then on the basis of their dozens of lines preserved, we should be able to manage one!

The is one standard gauge one in NI (Downpatrick) and a couple of narrow gauge ones at Dromod, Fintown/Glenties, Waterford etc. Apart from the Waterford & Suir Valley they're all fairly short affairs, more of a demonstration line than a way of getting from a to b. I don't think much of the circus/scrap yard at Moyasta, phoned ahead to visit with a mate from England to make sure they were operating and the whole place locked up tight without a soul around when we arrived. Exact same thing happened to someone else visiting the Easter weekend, the one weekend where you might expect some activity!

We're all good intentions here of the 'ah shure wouldn't it be nice to have...x, y & z', but when it comes to funding and volunteering it falls way short of the uk. Most of the uk lines could not run without volunteer labour, there are very few full time paid positions.

dr.fuzzenstein

whisky_galore wrote: »

The is one standard gauge one in NI (Downpatrick) and a couple of narrow gauge ones at Dromod, Fintown/Glenties, Waterford etc. Apart from the Waterford & Suir Valley they're all fairly short affairs, more of a demonstration line than a way of getting from a to b. I don't think much of the circus/scrap yard at Moyasta, phoned ahead to visit with a mate from England to make sure they were operating and the whole place locked up tight without a soul around when we arrived. Exact same thing happened to someone else visiting the Easter weekend, the one weekend where you might expect some activity!

We're all good intentions here of the 'ah shure wouldn't it be nice to have...x, y & z', but when it comes to funding and volunteering it falls way short of the uk. Most of the uk lines could not run without volunteer labour, there are very few full time paid positions.

Well, the problem in Ireland is mostly apathy towards anything that doesn't pay €40k, the council actively blocking anything that doesn't benefit their chronies, open hostility from landowners and negative attitude from the general population against anything new and you can see why Moyasta never stood a chance. Plus the guy who runs it isn't the youngest or healthiest.
And that is why we can't have nice things.

Jim Martin

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, the problem in Ireland is mostly apathy towards anything that doesn't pay €40k, the council actively blocking anything that doesn't benefit their chronies, open hostility from landowners and negative attitude from the general population against anything new and you can see why Moyasta never stood a chance. Plus the guy who runs it isn't the youngest or healthiest.
And that is why we can't have nice things.

Which goes back to what I was saying earlier about the will not being there!

johnam

According to theClare Herald there has been some movement with the greenway plans over the last few days. I know these plans were discussed over the last few years, but it looks like the money has been allocated to the project now. Would be great to see the whole thing done.

There is also some interesting reading here especially from page 8 or 9 on.

imabitthick

if they want to walk in the country and on the land thats fine, let em bugger off and buy some

elastico

imabitthick wrote: »

if they want to walk in the country and on the land thats fine, let em bugger off and buy some

Your username is a bit of an understatement. You are more than a bit thick.:rolleyes:

imabitthick

is'nt it ironic

dr.fuzzenstein

imabitthick wrote: »

if they want to walk in the country and on the land thats fine, let em bugger off and buy some

You must work for Failte Ireland.

imabitthick

i am the smiling face of it. just pissed off with people thinking that have an entitlement to wander wherever they like

dr.fuzzenstein

imabitthick wrote: »

i am the smiling face of it. just pissed off with people thinking that have an entitlement to wander wherever they like

Well, that's what designated walking routes would be for, nobody wants to propose that people should walk across fields or someone's backyard. Check out Germany (or anywhere else in Europe), you can walk the entire length and breadth of it without ever having to walk along a busy road full of trucks and cars with no hard shoulder, like here.
Having great hiking trails is a big tourist attraction. You can walk in the Alps in the absolute middle of nowhere and find a busy restaurant with rooms to rent, except you have to pre-book, cause they're booked solid for weeks.
We're missing a trick here.
Of course a lot of people would have the attitude of "if they don't like it, they can fcuk off" and you know what? They will. I'm sure that's really good for a country that relies so much on the tourist trade.

whisky_galore

imabitthick wrote: »

if they want to walk in the country and on the land thats fine, let em bugger off and buy some

Hunters and fishermen seem to go wherever they want without asking the landowner and no-one gives out about them.

Clareman

whisky_galore wrote: »

Hunters and fishermen seem to go wherever they want without asking the landowner and no-one gives out about them.

You'll normally notice Lands Protected signs for hunters/fisherman, this means that the local club is covering the insurance, you also need a license to do both activities during the agreed times.

locum-motion

whisky_galore wrote: »

Hunters and fishermen seem to go wherever they want without asking the landowner and no-one gives out about them.

Hunters get permission.

The word you're looking for is "Poachers"

whisky_galore

locum-motion wrote: »

Hunters get permission.

The word you're looking for is "Poachers"

No they don't. The lads with otterhounds have to be the most obnoxious.

dr.fuzzenstein

I think countryside walkways might be of no consequence to hunters, so that might be an entirely different subject to that. And tourists are very rarely out for game. :pac:
Unless we start offering Poacher's Tours...

locum-motion

whisky_galore wrote: »

No they don't. The lads with otterhounds have to be the most obnoxious.

These "lads with otterhounds" you mention: Do they have the permission of the landowner/hunting rights owner* to be there?

If they do, they're 'hunting'.

If they don't, they're 'poaching'.

"Hunters go anywhere they want without permission" is a sweeping generalisation that you simply cannot make; I'm a hunter, and I do not do that. If I did, I would be poaching.

*: It is by no means a certainty that the hunting rights owner and the landowner are the same person.

imabitthick

in fairness the idea is a good one and would be an asset. However planners in the council have to understand the implications for the the farmers involved.

godfrey

I fully agree that reopening the WCR in some form is an excellent idea.

I am sadly disappointed to see that there isn't a single fekkn route map or a link to one on the website http://www.westclarerailway.ie

g

imabitthick

i have a yard smack bang in the middle of it and a hundred yard away is a garage of a house on it. Going to make it very difficult

irish coldplayer

couldnt it route around your yard and the garage in question?
It doesnt have to be exactly the old railway line on the entirety of the route.

imabitthick

well it cant really. thats into a field on the left and a river on the right

johnam

godfrey wrote: »

I fully agree that reopening the WCR in some form is an excellent idea.

I am sadly disappointed to see that there isn't a single fekkn route map or a link to one on the website http://www.westclarerailway.ie

g

A lot of the track beds are visible in Google Maps, I have mapped out the section from Ennis to Lahinch here and will edit the map further over the next few days to continue on as far as kilrush and kilkee.

From talking to some now retired former colleagues, I believe the station in Ennis was across the road from the current train station in Ennis, and that both tracks ran side by side until the Tulla Road bridge, where the West Clare swung west around the town. The route of the tracks is now the main road into the Corovorrin Estate, and the track lines are visible all the way from there out to Lahinch.

I do not understand why the people of Kilkee, and Loop Head are not fighting to get a cycle route opened along some or all of the route (parts that are built on can be bypassed with a little cooperation from locals). The route would provide spectacular access to an area which has received great awards for eco tourism, and has also been named by Lonely Planet as among the top cycling destinations world wide.

Imagine, Train or Motorway to Ennis, and then Cycle out from there to West Clare, Ennistymon, Lahinch, Spanish Point, Kilrush, Kilkee, and from there you have access to quiet country roads to spend a few days exploring the Loop Head Peninsula. The Mayo Greenway is getting amazing reviews with plenty of people travelling to get to in. Ennis is a hell of a lot easier to get to than Westport, and the West Clare greenway would open up the West of the County from there.

godfrey

Thanks for taking the time to do that johnam.

G