Giving/Receiving comfort over death

CarMe

Recently I'm noticing so much of this "he's with the angels now", "gone to a better place", lots of references to heaven etc when people, sometimes even atheists, are giving comfort to someone who has lost somebody.
I've found myself at a loss for anything comparable to say myself except for I'm so sorry or I'm thinking of you but that isn't exactly comforting.
What do you say to give comfort? Does it bother you when well meaning people tell you that your loved one is in a better place, zipping around with the angels? I know it shouldn't but it really is starting to piss me off, or "looking down on you", I really feel the urge to correct people that I don't happen to believe my loved ones are doing any such thing, but that's ok!

TwoShedsJackson

Honestly it's probably just better to let people try and comfort you in whatever way they can - if they know you well enough they should know your (lack of) beliefs and will probably not lay it on too thick, but remember they are just trying to help you out at a tough time.

Personally I would just say 'sorry for your loss' and the like (and mean it) but there are plenty of people about who are either religious, or to whom it is an ingrained societal behaviour to say things like you mention at a funeral, or to someone recently bereaved.

fiona-f

Gosh, I find that surprising. I'm not an atheist but I've very rarely heard condolences expressed in that way. To me, the norm is "I'm sorry for loss, I'll be thinking of you in these difficult times, my thoughts are with you, I will miss him/her greatly" etc. And perhaps if the deceased had a painful lingering illness, perhaps some reference to an end to suffering (though for some reason I never would say that myself). I rarely hear any god/heaven/angels/better place except during a mass itself. Having said that, often the person sympathising is mourning the loss themselves, just not as closely as the immediate family, so it may not be appropriate to "correct" them. It would be different maybe if it we're e.g. tour work colleague offering sympathy on the death of your family member they had never met.

Peregrinus

A lot of people become more or less inarticulate in the presence of death or bereavement, and feel that whatever they say sounds inadequate. The important thing is that they are talking to you, to let you know in however confused a fashion that they want to acknowledge your loss and your grief and to support you. It really doesn't matter whether they convey that message in terms that reflects their beliefs, or in terms that attempt to reflect yours, or even in cliched terms that don't really reflect what either of you believe. He's trying to express sympathy, support and solidarity, and that's good.

The worst thing you can say, in my experience, is nothing, on account of "not knowing what to say".

An Riabhach

Tell them that it is simply not what you believe in.They may mean well but they really should not convince you to believe such things.

Or maybe they haven't a clue what else to say-as I hadn't many times in the past.Quite often,believers will use god,heaven,angels,satan blah blah blah when they don't know what to say or how to answer in most situations.

A few years ago,I lost a newborn baby nephew-the child's parents were agnostics but have since become Atheists-like me.I decided to name a star in the sky after the little one,because the stars do exist,and we all thought that was a lovely idea.

CarMe

Thanks all, I do realise people are just being nice but for some reason it's starting to really grate on me and I'd love a really really polite way to say, aw that's lovely of you to say but unfortunately I'm not much of a believer. But it always sounds like I'm even more upset then that I don't believe, which isn't the case at all.

Seasan that's really lovely!

smacl

I say "She/He'll be well remembered". Much of the talk around funerals and wakes tends to centre around the former glory of the deceased, and the final resting place of our friends is in many ways is in our memories. I've a good friend who was also a great cook who died suddenly a few years back, and I still visualise him grinning scornfully and cursing me whenever I make a total bollox of one of his recipes.

I think honesty is important, and a good wake is a great send off that we do so well in this country. Been to a few too many of them in recent years.

An Riabhach

CarMe wrote: »

Thanks all, I do realise people are just being nice but for some reason it's starting to really grate on me and I'd love a really really polite way to say, aw that's lovely of you to say but unfortunately I'm not much of a believer. But it always sounds like I'm even more upset then that I don't believe, which isn't the case at all.

Seasan that's really lovely!

And remember....tis not just little babies you can name stars after.
And if planets can be named in honour of Pagan gods,stars can be named after real people!

Anyway,as regards sympathizing with people e.g at funeral homes,I never say "sorry for your troubles" coz I think tis way too clichèed.I just shake their hand genuinely and say their name if I know the person,and they still say "thank you very much" because they know my intention is there.

Dades

I think it's such an terrible/awkward situation for both sides you have to let anything go. It'd only be if someone was harping on at me about their delusion rather than just whispering it in a queue that would prompt me to say anything.

This is how it should be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKOrr4XRbg8

Akrasia

Unless you're really close to the bereaved person and know the deceased really well, generally there is nothing you can say that will console them. You're only there at the funeral to show support and pay your respects

This is why I usually just say 'I'm sorry for your loss' at the funeral.
When it's someone very close to me and my family who has died, then there is much more time and need to say and do things to help each other through

If there is a widow or widower left behind, this is the person who I think needs the most support because the loss of a spouse can shatter their lives and seemingly destroy all their future hopes and dreams.

If the deceased had children, they too will need a lot of support, especially if they're young, but at least the children can find consolation in the fact that they carry a part of their parent in themselves, they represent the essence of their parent and in most cases, a parent's life long goal and ambition is to raise happy and successful children. A child's future is usually to become independent and start their own family. A widow/widowers future can seem bleak at first and the nights can be very very lonely.

Words of comfort can sometimes backfire if they inhibit acceptance that their loved one is gone. My own mother was very poorly served when her friends encouraged her to see a psychic after my father died. It caused her a lot of anguish and it took her longer to accept that her husband had died and move on.

Qs

CarMe wrote: »

Thanks all, I do realise people are just being nice but for some reason it's starting to really grate on me and I'd love a really really polite way to say, aw that's lovely of you to say but unfortunately I'm not much of a believer. But it always sounds like I'm even more upset then that I don't believe, which isn't the case at all.

Seasan that's really lovely!

It is indeed infuriating but theres not much you can do. I just find someone I know who feels the same way and vent about it. If you're at a wake or a funeral you can't really start having debates about belief.

Hotblack Desiato

Wouldn't a true catholic say 'he's in purgatory now, not too long I hope' ?

An Riabhach

ninja900 wrote: »

Wouldn't a true catholic say 'he's in purgatory now, not too long I hope' ?

Probably because they don't want to say anything negative,or because "purgatory" has been completely forgotten about-even though it was/is imperative to teach people,in catholic schools,that people do not go to "heaven" straight away,and they "must suffer punishment for their sins in purgatory" before going anywhere near the pearly gates.

Misty Moon

CarMe wrote: »

Does it bother you when well meaning people tell you that your loved one is in a better place, zipping around with the angels? I know it shouldn't but it really is starting to piss me off, or "looking down on you", I really feel the urge to correct people that I don't happen to believe my loved ones are doing any such thing, but that's ok!

Yep, it really bothers me. But I know that people sometimes don't know what to say, need to express their own version of belief/comfort/whatever so I hold my tongue. My sister died a few months ago and by the end of the funeral I was really struggling - felt like if one more person said she was in a better place I wouldn't be able to stop myself saying "No, she isn't, she's just dead". Actually, mentally, I did say that every single time, it's possible that helped me keep it under wraps the whole time.

Qs wrote: »

It is indeed infuriating but theres not much you can do. I just find someone I know who feels the same way and vent about it.

Agree wholeheartedly with this. I find myself zeroing in on those siblings and cousins who I know are most likely to make a very tasteless joke just at the right moment, even though I know they're only doing it to bolster you a bit to help you get through the next bit. Lets off a bit of steam.

Adamantium

Dades wrote: »

I think it's such an terrible/awkward situation for both sides you have to let anything go. It'd only be if someone was harping on at me about their delusion rather than just whispering it in a queue that would prompt me to say anything.

This is how it should be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKOrr4XRbg8

It's not like losing a pen is it? :P

SpaceTime

I find the big old-fashioned, atheist hug tends to work best.

And a 'with sympathy' card.

In terms of saying stuff just really whatever comes into my head at the time. Usually "I'm sorry.. he/she was great..' If I'm really needing to give someone serious words of comfort, "He/She'll live on in our me memories.."

In reality the only way you do live on is in people's memory, through whatever you've done while you're alive and through passing on your DNA if you've been lucky enough to have done that.

Even if you haven't reproduced directly, your contribution to society helped it to move forward in some way, so you still leave a legacy and probably indirectly impacted evolution to some degree too.

I suppose I'm an atheist humanist more than anything else. I just think you need to celebrate the positives about the person who's died and remember them for that stuff.

Everyone leaves some kind of legacy, even if it's not spectacular, they'll be missed and remembered fondly by someone.

Piliger

CarMe wrote: »

Recently I'm noticing so much of this "he's with the angels now", "gone to a better place", lots of references to heaven etc when people, sometimes even atheists, are giving comfort to someone who has lost somebody.
I've found myself at a loss for anything comparable to say myself except for I'm so sorry or I'm thinking of you but that isn't exactly comforting.
What do you say to give comfort? Does it bother you when well meaning people tell you that your loved one is in a better place, zipping around with the angels? I know it shouldn't but it really is starting to piss me off, or "looking down on you", I really feel the urge to correct people that I don't happen to believe my loved ones are doing any such thing, but that's ok!

A bit more tolerence is needed imho. People find it extremely difficult to know what to say. They want to comfort but the truth is NOTHING really comforts at a time like that.
Best thing is just leave people be. Let them say what they want and smile and leave it. They will probably feel dickish themselves later when they reflect.
I only ever say "I am really really sorry .." and nothing at all more. And when I see them later, listening is way way better than talking.

My ex (in her 40s at the time) was at the funeral of her father years ago (mother died years earlier).
A relative came to her in the church line and said "Isn't it terrible, you're both orphans now" ...........

MaxWig

Recently I'm noticing so much of this "he's with the angels now", "gone to a better place", lots of references to heaven etc when people, sometimes even atheists, are giving comfort to someone who has lost somebody.
I've found myself at a loss for anything comparable to say myself except for I'm so sorry or I'm thinking of you but that isn't exactly comforting.

Interesting that you would rather stick to your principles than offer a consoling word.

Probably that's commendable is it? Who knows?

I guess it's like a vegan offering a hungry homeless person some lentils wrapped in lettuce!! Comes from a good place, but I doubt the homeless guy is admiring the principle!

We're all hypocrites! Embrace it every now and then. At least you know God won't hold it against you

Peregrinus

To my mind, "I'm so sorry" and "I'm thinking of you" are both consoling words. They don't become any more consoling with the addition of references to angels, heaven, an afterlife, a new star in the sky tonight, etc, regardless of the beliefs of either the mourner or the consoler.

When you say "I'm so sorry" or the like to someone, you may feel that that sounds completely inadequate. And in one sense it is, because there isn't anything we can say in the face of death that will make death any less shocking. But that doesn't mean that the words are not supportive, and that your saying them is not experienced as support by the person who is mourning. I honestly don't think you have to say something about an afterlife that you don't believe in order to give real support.

Piliger

Peregrinus wrote: »

I honestly don't think you have to say something about an afterlife that you don't believe in order to give real support.

Of course not. I agree. But what is being forgotten here is that the people offering condolences are often also emotionally upset and bereaved themselves. And let's face it folks ... there are always a small number of people who just aren't good with people or awkward situations. It's not like they had a deep think about it over the previous three days and then decided to mention angels. Usually imho it just blurts out as a result of the emotion and upset of the moment.

Hotblack Desiato

Seasan wrote: »

Probably because they don't want to say anything negative,or because "purgatory" has been completely forgotten about-even though it was/is imperative to teach people,in catholic schools,that people do not go to "heaven" straight away,and they "must suffer punishment for their sins in purgatory" before going anywhere near the pearly gates.

Purgatory, like limbo, is bad for business - instant gratification for the soul after death is the most appealing product.

Brian Shanahan

CarMe wrote: »

What do you say to give comfort?

Well what I said when a neighbour (who had since moved to Cork) died, and I visited her wake back home, after a pretty hefty battle with cancer was "well she's better off out of it now", which got across my sympathies and how I felt about the hand dealt to her, and her mother (who's still alive and has managed to lose her husband young, a son very young and her daughter at fifty).

But if I'm lost for words a hug is a great thing to show how I feel.

Hotblack Desiato

Better off out of Cork, yeah probably, but there are ways other than dying.

MrPudding

I do thing this ind of situation is one where believers do have some advantage over non-believers, particularly if the bereaved is a believer themselves. One thing religion is good for is platitudes.

I do find funerals difficult but I tend to stick with, as Peregrinus suggests, sorry for your loss. It is generally accurate and nothing more need be said.

MrP

Brian Shanahan

ninja900 wrote: »

Better off out of Cork, yeah probably, but there are ways other than dying.

Aren't we all better off out of Cork?

Polarix

CarMe wrote: »

Recently I'm noticing so much of this "he's with the angels now", "gone to a better place", lots of references to heaven etc when people, sometimes even atheists, are giving comfort to someone who has lost somebody.
I've found myself at a loss for anything comparable to say myself except for I'm so sorry or I'm thinking of you but that isn't exactly comforting.
What do you say to give comfort? Does it bother you when well meaning people tell you that your loved one is in a better place, zipping around with the angels? I know it shouldn't but it really is starting to piss me off, or "looking down on you", I really feel the urge to correct people that I don't happen to believe my loved ones are doing any such thing, but that's ok!

I don't think it's the time or place for debating beliefs / non beliefs with anyone. I just say "sorry to hear about ......"

Sulla Felix

Having been on the recieving end of the usual platitudes I have to say that when said in the immediacy of grief, I paid little or no attention to the words being said, it was enough they were saying something.

Umbrage started to be taken months/years later when some people were still insisting about talking about my father as if he were in a better place, looking down on me etc. I could only feel that it was now less about offering comfort and more about making a metaphysical point, one that it was known I disagreed with.

That annoys me, quite a bit. Poisons any appreciation I might have had for the comfort given and turns the whole experience into a debating point.

Benny_Cake

"I'm very sorry for your loss" should be a more than adequate way of expressing condolences regardless of belief or non-belief. Other platitudes are best avoided, although I can understand that people don't know what to say and feel the need to fill the silence with words.

I'd probably tell someone that I'd pray for them (the bereaved person, that is), but only if I knew the person really well and knew that it would be appreciated.

Piliger

Benny_Cake wrote: »

"I'm very sorry for your loss" should be a more than adequate way of expressing condolences regardless of belief or non-belief. Other platitudes are best avoided, although I can understand that people don't know what to say and feel the need to fill the silence with words.

I'd probably tell someone that I'd pray for them (the bereaved person, that is), but only if I knew the person really well and knew that it would be appreciated.

That sums it up really. Keep it short, and just listen.

Nodin

ninja900 wrote: »

Purgatory, like limbo, is bad for business - instant gratification for the soul after death is the most appealing product.

...I thought they got rid of purgatory. Mad.

An Riabhach

Nodin wrote: »

...I thought they got rid of purgatory. Mad.

They get rid of it whenever it suits them.

Piliger

Seasan wrote: »

They get rid of it whenever it suits them.

Marketing department said it had to go.

Eeden

To be fair, people who talk about your loved one "being in a better place", or "with the angels" or "looking down on you" are not trying to piss you off. They're just trying to comfort you in the way that they would like to be comforted if they were in your position.

Should they lose someone, you would comfort them in the way that you would like to be comforted - eg by saying "We'll never forget him", "I'm sorry for your loss", etc.

I reckon that a time of bereavement is not the right time to be picky about what comforts other people or what you want others to say to you. Just saying anything at all should be appreciated.

nozzferrahhtoo

MaxWig wrote: »

Interesting that you would rather stick to your principles than offer a consoling word.

Thankfully the two are not mutually exclusive and I can think of several ways of offering consolment to the bereaved without offering them falsehoods, fantasy, or compromising my own world views and principles.

nikpmup

When my husband died, I remember prickling with unbridled rage whenever anyone tried to tell me he was in a better place. He was perfectly fcking happy here, with me. I still think it's an horrendous thing to say to someone and a lot of the widows/widowers I met in the last few years agree with me, whether they are believers or not. When offering condolences I always keep it simple - I'm so sorry. For the record, what I found the most comforting (and still do) is people simply agreeing with me that what happened was sh1t, and totally unfair, and that I had every right to be angry.