124 new homes for Clonsilla

ongarboy

I see a planning application to Fingal has been submitted for the last undeveloped space along the Ongar/Clonsilla Link Road (up from Mount Symon). At least it will get rid of that ugly earth mound that has been there for years now. I guess this is a sign that new house builds are really starting in Dublin again. Interesting to see what type of prices they will command when developed.

http://www.loadza.com/notices/planning-apps-815/50

FINGAL COUNTY COUNCIL La Vista Ltd. & E.P. Lynam Properties Ltd. intend to apply to Fingal County Council for Permission for development comprising of 124 no. residential units consisting of 53no. 2- storey 4 bed House Type A, 13no. 2-storey 4 bed House Type A1, 11no. 2-storey 3 bed House Type B, 4no 2-storey House Type B1,12no. 2-storey 3 bed House Type B2,1no 2- storey 3 bed House Type B3, 3no. 2-storey 3 bed house Type B4, 1no. 2-storey 3 bed House Type B5,2no. 2-storey 3 bed House Type B6,4no. 2-storey 3 bed House Type C, 12no. 2- storey 3 bed House Type C1, 5no. 2-storey 3 bed House Type D, 1no. 2-storey 4 bed House Type E, 2no. 2-storey 4 bed House Type E1; all of the above with the option for roof mounted solar panels; with associated communal and on-curtilage parking spaces and open space areas; this proposal also includes a 2-storey detached childcare facility with a 1-storey element (approx. 422m2) with an outdoor play area (approx. 98sq.m), drop off zone and associated parking/development works. The proposed Creche will serve the 124 no. dwellings the subject of this application and also the 166 no. dwellings to be constructed on the applications nearby 2.52 hectare site, which are permitted under Reg. Ref. FW09A/0019 (An Bord Pleanála Reg. Ref. PL06F.235260); All the above is proposed with ancillary site development works and with vehicular access from the Clonsilla Link Road; on a 4.26 ha site bounded by the New Ongar Road to the North, Castlefield Court Estate to the South, Mount Symon Estate to the West and Charnwood Estate to the East at Clonsilla, Dublin 15. (This Application effectively seeks to replace the development permitted under Reg. Ref. FW10A/0147). This planning application may be inspected or purchased at a fee not exceeding the reasonable cost of making a copy, at the offices of Fingal County Council, Grove Road, Blanchardstown, Dublin 15, during the public opening hours (9.30am - 4.30pm Monday to Friday, excluding bank holidays). A submission or observation in relation to the application may be made to the Planning Authority in writing on payment of the prescribed fee (20) within the period of 5 w

daymobrew

Full details at FCC Planning site - FW14A/0042

Kev.

I was just talking to my wife about that area the other day.absolute waste of space as it is at the moment

murphyebass

Seems like madness to me. Plenty of half built and half occupied estates in the area.

ongarboy

I thought all those estates around Clonsilla were fairly completed and occupied looking, no? Allendale, Portersgate, Mount Symon etc.

Seperately, I notice diggers have started breaking ground again this morning at Hansfield on the way up to the new train station. Let's hope they are starting to resume building there too. The current barren landscape there is quite bleak on the daily walk up to the station!

murphyebass

Hansfield isnt finished is it? Definately not all occupied.

2 estates near Manorfields and Ongar are unfinished and definately not occupied. Cant rememeber the names on them sorry.

Manorfields, Allendale and Ravenswood would be the 3 more mature estates that are finished and for the most part well kept.

Ongar is complete and like the above is pretty well maintained and occupied.

I know theres a demand for the 3 bed semi's and its not the worst thing to happen having a new build around that area as its a mess at the moment but I do hope they dont just start building for the sake of it in the mantra "If we build it they will come". Its a concrete jungle as it is.

oblivious

murphyebass wrote: »

Hansfield isnt finished is it? Definately not all occupied.

2 estates near Manorfields and Ongar are unfinished and definately not occupied. Cant rememeber the names on them sorry.

But not every everyone may want to live there

murphaph

That's less than 2 minutes walk to the station isn't it? It's a waste of development land to put semis in there so close to rail transport. Should have only been given permission for higher density than that really.

Larbre34

murphaph wrote: »

That's less than 2 minutes walk to the station isn't it? It's a waste of development land to put semis in there so close to rail transport. Should have only been given permission for higher density than that really.

I was wondering when we'd see this.

No guarantee the current application will be successful, the Development Plan thresholds may mean the Fingal planners require a bigger mix of unit types, i.e. some apartments.

Overall its a positive though, its a more mature location than the likes of Barnwell, I can see the homes being snapped up relatively quickly. Looking at local second hand prices they would probably get between 230-350K for them off the plans.

Finglas Incubus

murphaph wrote: »

Should have only been given permission for higher density than that really.

Back in 2009, Lynams submitted an application to build a development on the site consisting of a number of apartment blocks and mixed housing units (it was subsequently revised in 2010):

(EDIT:, Back in 2004, the original application called for 315 dwellings to be developed on the site).

FCC website wrote:

Development of 185 no. residential units consisting of 103 no 2/3/4 bedroom terraced, semi-detached and detached houses, 19 no. 3 bedroom duplex units and 63 no. 1/2/3 bedroom apartments all in a 2, 3 and 4 storey development with 295 no associated parking spaces, open space areas and site works, with access from the new road linking Clonsilla Road with the proposed New Ongar Road all on a 4.26ha site bounded by the proposed New Ongar Road to the north, Castlefield Court Estate to the south, Mount Symon Estate to the west and Charnwood Estate to the east of Clonsilla. Dublin 15.

At the time, there was some local concern regarding the height of the development. A few year ago, the developer put roads on the site in an effort to extend the permission (I believe they need to develop within 5 years of receiving permission, open to correction).

Shifting new apartment stock in D15 in this day and age is not an easy task and developers know this - hence the move towards family homes where the real demand is right now.

I welcome the revised application, this site has been an eyesore for a number of years. I think its just a matter of time until we see Lynams making a similar move on the nearby site at the corner of the Clonsilla Road / Link Road (planning link)

murphyebass

oblivious wrote: »

But not every everyone may want to live there

The likes of Hansfield just for arguements sake is 5 mins from the new site thats being dug up. If someone is interested in this new development why wouldnt they look at hansfield or some of the other estates nearby.

I'll tell you why. The main reason people arent buying them is theyre not finished and not maintained. Why would you buy in an estate that looks like a deserted building site. Even the entrance to Hansfield is horrible looking with a hut from a building site at it as if theres a security man watching the estate or something.

As a Clonee resident I would just like to think that we dont end up with more unfinished and unoccupied ghost estates.

The likes of the apartments beside the tennis club are pretty much completely empty as well. Now I know people are looking for 3 bed semi's etc. but this type of accomodation has to be looked at as well. Otherwise it'll lay vacant for years. If the price is right people will buy them. Not everyone is married with kids and needs a 3 bed semi. Apartment buying is a no go though at the moment as they're still too expensive and are far more risky than buying a starter 3 bed semi.

Theres an unfinished estate down the road from Lidl as well cant remember the name of it off the top of my head but again lots of duplex's and apartments on a really nice country road but finished really poorly and is just unattractive to a new buyer.

dodzy

murphyebass wrote: »

why wouldnt they look at hansfield or some of the other estates nearby ?

I'd rather be sandwiched between Mount Symon & Charnwood. Much nicer looking houses too.

Finglas Incubus

The main reason people arent buying them is theyre not finished and not maintained. Why would you buy in an estate that looks like a deserted building site. Even the entrance to Hansfield is horrible looking with a hut from a building site at it as if theres a security man watching the estate or something.

At the risk of moving further off topic, the Hansfield SDZ was fast tracked for housing in 2005 by FCC and was voted through by the councillors of the day (no doubt in good faith), raising these issues with todays bunch would be a good place to start in terms of engendering action. Then theres the Manor Park saga which has been discussed ad nausium in various fora over the years...

I'd rather be sandwiched between Mount Symon & Charnwood. Much nicer looking houses too.

Its a subjective opinion with merit - personal preference in terms of location, access to amenities, local visual amenity, outer finish of the property, no of bedrooms, size of back garden etc etc are all valid considerations. Financial capacity / capability is another and I expect that properties in this development will be offered at premium (relatively speaking) and will be snapped up quickly in the process due to pent up demand. Time will tell...

oblivious

murphyebass wrote: »

The likes of Hansfield just for arguements sake is 5 mins from the new site thats being dug up. If someone is interested in this new development why wouldnt they look at hansfield or some of the other estates nearby.

I'll tell you why. The main reason people arent buying them is theyre not finished and not maintained. Why would you buy in an estate that looks like a deserted building site. Even the entrance to Hansfield is horrible looking with a hut from a building site at it as if theres a security man watching the estate or something .

It can be just subjective difference of views, 3-4 beds house with front gardens are sell in the area (Clonsilla to laurel lodge). This is land that have been zoned for houses and may have even received planning permission.

Hansfield is its own area, if there are groups willing to investing and developed it it would be great. But I don't follow the argument that its gets or other areas priory just because they are unfinished.

beauf

murphaph wrote: »

That's less than 2 minutes walk to the station isn't it? It's a waste of development land to put semis in there so close to rail transport. Should have only been given permission for higher density than that really.

No point building apartments that are too small and that no one wants either.

jescart

Terrible for the people who have back gardens adjoining the land. They are going to be looking at and listening to pneumatic drills and trucks for the next year or so if the planning permission goes ahead. I am always wary when viewing property backing or fronting onto unused land.

murphaph

beauf wrote: »

No point building apartments that are too small and that no one wants either.

Exactly, so build a mix of well proportioned 1, 2 and 3 bed apartments on the site. Allendale is fully occupied AFAIK so it's patent nonsense to say nobody wants to live in an apartment in that area. It's just a waste of public infrastructure to allow relatively low density development so close to a rail line.

murphaph

jescart wrote: »

Terrible for the people who have back gardens adjoining the land. They are going to be looking at and listening to pneumatic drills and trucks for the next year or so if the planning permission goes ahead. I am always wary when viewing property backing or fronting onto unused land.

House building doesn't require large scale use of pneumatic drills in fairness. They're building houses, not tearing up a street. The dust in summer will be the most annoying thing but you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

beauf

murphaph wrote: »

Exactly, so build a mix of well proportioned 1, 2 and 3 bed apartments on the site. Allendale is fully occupied AFAIK so it's patent nonsense to say nobody wants to live in an apartment in that area. It's just a waste of public infrastructure to allow relatively low density development so close to a rail line.

Fully occupied because small apt are what people want? Or because there's a huge shortage of any housing city wide??

ongarboy

beauf wrote: »

Fully occupied because small apt are what people want? Or because there's a huge shortage of any housing city wide??

Apartments are better suited to single and young renters and the landlords who rent them out as there is less maintenance/no garden work etc. There will always be a demand for rented properties and apartments for this demographic for temporary periods as most of them may not want to or cannot be on the property ladder yet. Renters who want to live alone will not generally be able to afford to rent a 3 bed semi but may be able to rent a 1 bed apt. If you look at Daft, you can see how few rental properties (including apartments) are available in D15 or anywhere in Dublin right now so building a mixed development of apartments and houses of various sizes around transport nodes is a good idea. I don't think the development proposed in this thread includes any apartments though.

beauf

You have people complaining about the rise in rents. Kinda hard to share the rent of one bed apartment.

murphaph

beauf wrote: »

Fully occupied because small apt are what people want? Or because there's a huge shortage of any housing city wide??

Why must apartments be "small"? (relative term by the way, there are tens of thousands of 20m² studio apartments in Berlin which suit students/young people on tighter budgets. Such tiny apartments are extremely rare in Dublin)

Why not build a mix of small, medium and large apartments on the same site, providing adequate housing whilst not wasting valuable building land that is a couple of minutes walk to a railway station?

There's a place for houses with gardens for sure, but not this close to rapid transit. That's my only point really.

murphaph

beauf wrote: »

You have people complaining about the rise in rents. Kinda hard to share the rent of one bed apartment.

His point was that with enough of a mix people on tighter budgets can get a small 1 bed or studio flat to rent by themselves, without needing to share at all. That doesn't mean ALL the units should be built to this standard, absolutely not, there should be a mix of unit size.

beauf

Small = cheap initial cost. But its poor value in the long run, if you want to share rent, have a family, buy to let.

If you're on a tight budget, choosing the expensive option of renting on your own, doesn't make a lot of sense.

Berlin has a population of 3x Dublin. Its going to have a lot more of everything.

beauf

It would be interesting to see the ratio of demand for houses vs apartments in the D.15 area.

Maybe its 50:50 as you suggest.

Barrel

But what about someone that wants to buy a new 3 or 4 bedroom house in Dublin 15?

Why should they have to move to a different area because "apartments should be built"

Or should they just have to buy second hand homes and spend a fortune on stamp duty, doing them up and get them up to a decent BER etc

murphaph

beauf wrote: »

Small = cheap initial cost. But its poor value in the long run, if you want to share rent, have a family, buy to let.

If you're on a tight budget, choosing the expensive option of renting on your own, doesn't make a lot of sense.

Berlin has a population of 3x Dublin. Its going to have a lot more of everything.

Substitute Berlin with medium sized German city. It's not Berlin specific. I should have been clearer there.

Some people on tighter budgets would prefer a studio than a room in a shared house. Surely that's not difficult to understand? The studio might cost a bit more than the room and you have a smaller kitchen etc. but you have your own space, at reasonable cost.

murphaph

Barrel wrote: »

But what about someone that wants to buy a new 3 or 4 bedroom house in Dublin 15?

Why should they have to move to a different area because "apartments should be built"

Or should they just have to buy second hand homes and spend a fortune on stamp duty, doing them up and get them up to a decent BER etc

When all the building land in D15 is used up, what about people who want to buy a new house (or anything) then? Building land is a resource you can' manufacture. It's finite. In fact I didn't even say that only apartments should be built in D15 and I don't believe that, but this close to rapid transit should not see houses with gardens being built. Further away, out of walking distance of rapid transit the houses with gardens are acceptable for sure.

Barrel

murphaph wrote: »

When all the building land in D15 is used up, what about people who want to buy a new house (or anything) then? Building land is a resource you can' manufacture. It's finite. In fact I didn't even say that only apartments should be built in D15 and I don't believe that, but this close to rapid transit should not see houses with gardens being built. Further away, out of walking distance of rapid transit the houses with gardens are acceptable for sure.

Really? when all the land is gone in D15 what then? in like 2114? i'll let you know then

Finglas Incubus

A key point in this debate regarding high density development close to rail transport is the relationship between the number of inhabitants (ergo potential rail users) in an area and the ability of the transport mechanism to cope with likely demand.

I'm sure theres a capacity planning document out there somewhere that lays down the considerations required when attempting to balance development with amenities and public transport but I would argue that to date, this has been less than successful.

Anyone who uses Clonsilla station at peak times will tell you that its one of the busiest stops on the track in terms on/off commuter traffic. Its just about coping with demand which doesn't appear to be have dropped off since the opening of the Hansfield station. An holistic approach is required when considering high density residential development, its clear that planners did a poor job in D15 over the past 15 years in terms of transport, infrastructure, schools and amenity - only now is it starting to catch up.

We may well see rail electrification, automatic signalling and increased capacity in the future but I suspect that this is way off down the track (no pun etc)

oblivious

Finglas Incubus wrote: »

A key point in this debate regarding high density development close to rail transport is the relationship between the number of inhabitants (ergo potential rail users) in an area and the ability of the transport mechanism to cope with likely demand.

I'm sure theres a capacity planning document out there somewhere that lays down the considerations required when attempting to balance development with amenities and public transport but I would argue that to date, this has been less than successful.

Anyone who uses Clonsilla station at peak times will tell you that its one of the busiest stops on the track in terms on/off commuter traffic. Its just about coping with demand which doesn't appear to be have dropped off since the opening of the Hansfield station. An holistic approach is required when considering high density residential development, its clear that planners did a poor job in D15 over the past 15 years in terms of transport, infrastructure, schools and amenity - only now is it starting to catch up.

We may well see rail electrification, automatic signalling and increased capacity in the future but I suspect that this is way off down the track (no pun etc)

Off record (a couple of years ago) I was told that Fingal COCO was no longer in-favor of high density in D15, was because central government was not proving the funding they promised for infrastructural development.

I see something similar was occurring in Balbriggan at the end of 2012
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/no-more-highdensity-homes-in-balbriggan-27765798.html

beauf

I can only find old data. Can anyone find any recent data on vacancy rates and anything that indicates the main type of housing demand?

That does seem to happening in some parts of Dublin. The tentative evidence is that: housing vacancy is less than 5% in the city according to the Census 2011; prices seem to have stabilised for family homes (though they are still fluctuating a little – according to the CSO they fell 3% Nov 2011-Nov 2012); and according to Daft.ie, two thirds of properties selling within 4 months in Dublin.

It is not the case for all types of property. Apartment vacancy is 17-19% in Dublin and apartment prices are still falling (they fell 13% last year). In other words, there is still a large oversupply of apartments.

There is little evidence that prices have stabilised in the other principal cities, and elsewhere they are still going down, albeit more slowly than before. There is certainly no need to build anything in rural areas as a large oversupply exists there.

https://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/tag/housing/

But beyond these supply constraints lies an even bigger problem: we simply cannot expect to build any meaningful quantity of new family homes in the areas where we need them.

In Dublin, new construction implies either building apartments blocks or redeveloping existent neighborhoods to increase density. Apartments are hardly in demand by the growing families beyond serving as a first step on the property ladder. In other words, no matter how much our planners dream about building a mini-Manhattan on the Liffey, Dublin property buyers still want individual homes with own gardens. Just as they did so at the times when property prices were double their current levels.

Demographics also stack up against us in the hope of significantly expanding apartments ownership. After 6 years of depressed volume of transactions, the new generation of First-Time Buyers is older and has larger families than their predecessors in the early 2000s. The one- and two-bedroom apartments developments that we used to produce in the past are no longer suitable for them. Furthermore, the city infrastructure – schools, crèches, shopping and family amenities – that accompanies these developments is not fit for purpose in Dublin City.

....

This means that for Ireland to generate significant enough uplift in buildings supply we need to incentivise developers to build suitable apartments and for buyers to opt for these apartments.

...

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.ie/2014/03/632014-new-property-building-boom-for.html

Finglas Incubus

beauf wrote: »

I can only find old data. Can anyone find any recent data on vacancy rates and anything that indicates the main type of housing demand?

Survey data and opinion pieces (some of it conflicting) from the SCSI Annual Residential Property Review & Outlook 2014:

Planning has been granted/exists for high density
apartments in certain areas around Dublin but demand
is currently for 3 and 4 bed semi-detached family homes
of which there are constraints on supply and which is
putting more pressure on prices on the limited second
hand stock of family homes that do become available.

...

There appears to be different expectations around the
supply of semi-detached and detached houses and the
supply of apartments/townhouses. Half of chartered
surveyors do not expect the supply of 4 bed semi-
detached second hand urban houses to increase over the
next 12 months and around two fifths do not expect the
supply of 3 bed semi-detached houses or
4/5 bed detached houses to increase. On the other hand,
chartered surveyors were much more positive about
the supply of 1 bed apartments and 2 bed apartments
as around three quarters expect the supply of these
properties to increase. Six in ten expect that supply of
2 bed and 3 bed townhouses will increase.

...

“Some local authorities remain too firmly fixed
on high density residential development, even in
less central locations.  Demographic changes – in
particular a sharp decline in the number of people
in their 20s - mean that the natural demand for
apartments outside the city centre and locations
close to good public transport links has diminished”

...

“The high cost of constructing apartments, make
it difficult for developers to break-even on high
density schemes in many locations.  Ultimately, this
curtails much needed new construction” 

murphaph

Barrel wrote: »

Really? when all the land is gone in D15 what then? in like 2114? i'll let you know then

Sure if there's no shortage of building land then why do you have a problem zoning land within walking distance of rail stations to higher densities?

Barrel

murphaph wrote: »

Sure if there's no shortage of building land then why do you have a problem zoning land within walking distance of rail stations to higher densities?

Your missing the point


There is no shortage of land, there is a shortage of new 3 - 4 bedroom homes being built in Dublin 15 at the moment, apartment blocks and high density houses are what all the ghost estates you see in Dublin 15 are

You dont see any half built 3 - 4 bedroom semi d ghost estates anywhere do you?

So why take this pocket of land that has nothing but 3 - 4 bed semi d's from power city to Allendale and stick a load of apartment and high density houses into it, when all the ghost estates are screaming to be finished?

And when the ghost estates are finished then we can start building apartments etc along side 3-4 bed houses no problems

amdublin

Good location.

I'd rather live here (beside mount symon and the lovely portersgate) rather then hansfield.

murphaph

Barrel wrote: »

Your missing the point

There is no shortage of land, there is a shortage of new 3 - 4 bedroom homes being built in Dublin 15 at the moment, apartment blocks and high density houses are what all the ghost estates you see in Dublin 15 are

You dont see any half built 3 - 4 bedroom semi d ghost estates anywhere do you?

So why take this pocket of land that has nothing but 3 - 4 bed semi d's from power city to Allendale and stick a load of apartment and high density houses into it, when all the ghost estates are screaming to be finished?

And when the ghost estates are finished then we can start building apartments etc along side 3-4 bed houses no problems

So rather than arrest the poor planning decisions that have allowed low density development adjacent to rail transport you say build some more low density and build the high(er) density "some place else".

We've done things arseways. We've built the 3 bed semis and larger up against the railway alignment and built the apartments in Tyrellstown! That doesn't mean you should keep compounding the error. This land is available now and could be developed into low rise (4 story max) apartments in a mix of sizes, making more use of public infrastructure.

I'm not anti house and pro apartment, whereas some here seem to be anti apartment and pro house. It's not about the type of property rather about the appropriate location for the type of property.

beauf

If that's the argument, then there should be no new development in D.15.

The infrastructure, trains, roads, schools simply can't take it.

You can't get kids into schools and its quicker to cycle the 14k into town than get the train, bus.

robertxxx

murphaph wrote: »

That's less than 2 minutes walk to the station isn't it? It's a waste of development land to put semis in there so close to rail transport. Should have only been given permission for higher density than that really.

But the rail at the moment is at high density levels, extra people is what's not needed.

murphaph

ok just build 3 bed semis everywhere.

amdublin

murphaph wrote: »

ok just build 3 bed semis everywhere.

Well they do tend to be popular with peoples.

robertxxx

No, just turn it into a park or some type of recreation.

Do you get public transport daily or do a school run?

beauf

murphaph wrote: »

ok just build 3 bed semis everywhere.

how about stop building in d.15 completely.

The Diabolical Monocle

murphaph wrote: »

Why must apartments be "small"? (relative term by the way, there are tens of thousands of 20m² studio apartments in Berlin which suit students/young people on tighter budgets. Such tiny apartments are extremely rare in Dublin)

Why not build a mix of small, medium and large apartments on the same site, providing adequate housing whilst not wasting valuable building land that is a couple of minutes walk to a railway station?

There's a place for houses with gardens for sure, but not this close to rapid transit. That's my only point really.

Over here you're a full time worker, married aged 25-60 with a mid level income, 1 car and plans for 2 children or you dont exist.

beauf

They spent 20yrs building apartments all over and you're still not happy. Before that you're options would be a grotty bedsit in decrepit old houses.

murphaph

As I said before. It's not about building more apartments and fewer houses but rather building at higher densities close (especially within the golden 1km walking distance) to railway stations. Houses with gardens are fine further away.

beauf

How about this, earmark that land for apartments. But don't build them.

But build the houses first (greatest demand) and build them further away. Because if you live in a house you get less priority to public transport ?.

In theory People will move from the existing apartments to the house, leaving the apartments free for your priority group. If the banks facilitate this. Which they won't.

Barrel

Red = high density ghost estate's
Green = land ready for high density housing
Black = where we are talking about


As your obsessed with the rail line in Clonsilla im not going to mention Tyrrelstown and others

murphaph

Reading this thread I'm starting to finally understand why Dublin has sprawling low density suburbs with sh!te public transport. And why that will never change.

beauf

... and we're understanding how there's so many ghost estates apartment blocks that no one want,
...or that people buy then find they are unsuitable for them, but can't move out of them.

Larbre34

Yeah exactly, it not that people particularly covet a semi-d gaff with a grass patch, its that we have never been offered 3 or 4 bed sustainable family apartments with storage and elbow room, that weren't penthouses or trophy homes.

When Dublin began to regenerate in the City Centre the model should have been the city living apartments of the continent, but no, developer led planning and cronyism meant shoe boxes and ruined it for a generation. That said, this site isnt the City Centre so lower density family homes will work better than apartments or even a Tyrrellstown type model.