If a total beginner came to you and said...

whirlpool

If a total beginner came to you and said "I want to seriously reduce my body-fat and build lots of muscle all over, and I want to do it quickly yet logically and healthily with long-term, maintainable results" what would be your answer to that and why?

Mainly with regards the following:

Diet
How many days per week
How much time per workout
How many days to leave in between working certain muscle groups
How frequently to change workouts?
How to burn fat and not burn muscle
When do supplements and protein supplements become necessary?



There is no one answer to this, and it's different for everybody, and there are lots of variables involved which will make giving a simplistic response to this question difficult and in some cases impossible.

hidinginthebush

A program like starting strength or 5X5 with a diet high in protein would be a good start. These are both great in that they are beginner programs that don't over complicate things, and you progress day-to-day, so they will continually build strength. Plus, if they're carrying a lot of excess fat, they can still eat at maintenance / slight deficit levels and still see progress once they are getting enough protein.

I'm in a similar boat, started SS after the new year. Weight's dropped from 95 to 91kg, most lifts are still progressing on a frequent enough basis (apart from feckin overhead presses). The problem with SS though, is that the book recommends you eat something like 4,000 cals per day. Now I'm sure that my progress would be a lot better if I did, but if I was eating that amount, I'd be a fecking whale by now.

With regard to the long term, maintainable, results, well, they'll just have to accept that this is what they do now. You can't go to the gym and work hard for 6 months, get good results, and then expect them to remain when you slack off and return to the old lifestyle that prompted the change in the first place.

Apologies for any bro-science that may have crept in above, the fitness noob is strong in this one.

JJayoo

Beginners need simplicity. 3 full body workouts per week. Each session should have a horizontal push and pull movement and a vertical push and pull movement, and each session should contain squats and reverse lunges. Last 15 minutes of workout should be arms/side raises = pump = motivation = leave the gym feeling good = more chance that they will come back.

Alf Veedersane

*smart response*

JJayoo

We have a small local gym connected to the GAA changing rooms and a lot of young lads have started using it. Every few weeks I find a new workout plan printed from different bodybuilding websites. The best one so far was the "Get yolked like Thor" workout. The leg workout sheet was left in the gym and it consisted of about 12 different exercises. Over complicated sh1te, I drew a picture of a cat on the sheet.

Mellor

whirlpool wrote: »

I want to seriously reduce my body-fat and build lots of muscle all over, and I want to do it quickly yet logically and healthily with long-term, maintainable results

My advice would be to sort their diet out. Educate themselves on nutrition.

As a general guide and a starting point;
Eat mostly whole food. Real food that was alive, ie plants and animals.
Calories per day should be a BW (in lbs) x 12 for weight loss. Target 1g per lb BW per day. Eat protein at every meal.
You don't need to eliminate all carbs, but should eliminate sugar. Remember carb sources are denser than protein sources. 200g chicken + 60g rice = 50g protein and 50g carbohydrate.
Healthy natural fats are good for you.

You are allowed to have treats/cheat meals. But that means lightening up a little with something small watching a movie or maybe a health-ish option from the take away. Not making a pig of your self all weekend.


Your diet is the only thing keeping you from your goals.

How many days per week
How much time per workout

3 days a week, more if you can.
Follow a tried and tested routine.
Starting strength or another of the 5x5 variations or WS4SB. GVT

About 60 minutes is normal. But take however long you need to take. I regularly have 45 minute session that require more effort than 2 hour session.

How many days to leave in between working certain muscle groups
How frequently to change workouts?

You don't need to worry about specific muscles. Follow the full body routines above.
You don't need to change your routine after a set length to time. By all means rotate through variations of the main lifts as you please to cover all bases. But knwo why you are doing it. Swapping every 6 weeks to "shock the body" is frankly a load of bollox

How to burn fat and not burn muscle

Just sort your diet out. Seriously.

When do supplements and protein supplements become necessary?

They aren't necessary.
You should only consider them when you can answer the above question yourself.

Cookie_Monster

Transform

whirlpool wrote: »

If a total beginner came to you and said "I want to seriously reduce my body-fat and build lots of muscle all over, and I want to do it quickly yet logically and healthily with long-term, maintainable results" what would be your answer to that and why?

Mainly with regards the following:

Diet
How many days per week
How much time per workout
How many days to leave in between working certain muscle groups
How frequently to change workouts?
How to burn fat and not burn muscle
When do supplements and protein supplements become necessary?



There is no one answer to this, and it's different for everybody, and there are lots of variables involved which will make giving a simplistic response to this question difficult and in some cases impossible.

quickly yet logically is kind of an oxymoron.

+1 full body workout, sort your diet and mobilty out and stop thinking short term - a year at least to get to the point were you are minorly less sh1t at basic movements and nutrition. 2-3 years is optimal

jane82

Five priorities
1 diet
2 diet
3 diet
4 diet
5 workout

Leave the shakes until your diet is sorted.

colman1212

Ditching Gluten and Dairy was probably the best thing I've done from a body composition point of view. I've been training for years, but once I removed them, I started seeing some real results.
Also I believe nutrient timing is really important from my own experience. Keeping carbs to a minimum throughout the day and loading up on them before and after workouts.

jane82

colman1212 wrote: »

Ditching Gluten and Dairy was probably the best thing I've done from a body composition point of view. I've been training for years, but once I removed them, I started seeing some real results.
Also I believe nutrient timing is really important from my own experience. Keeping carbs to a minimum throughout the day and loading up on them before and after workouts.

You mean cutting your carbs and not eating yoghurt and butter?
Makes sense but unless you are ceiliac these things are just correlation not causation Id say. Lots gluten in bread and nearly anything carby.

colman1212

jane82 wrote: »

You mean cutting your carbs and not eating yoghurt and butter?
Makes sense but unless you are ceiliac these things are just correlation not causation Id say. Lots gluten in bread and nearly anything carby.

Not cutting my carbs as such. If I'm trying to gain weight or lose weight, I'll vary the amount of carbs I'm using. At the moment I'm trying to get stronger so I eat quite a lot of sweet potato, basmati rice and oats around my workout. The rest of the day I'll stick to protein and fats.

So yeah I don't eat yoghurt or butter/milk or bread.
I'm not totally against butter at the same time as it can be a great source of fat but my main sources are avocado and coconut oil.
Again this is just what works for me, Now if I eat gluten it just makes me feel like crap.

GuyFawkes

Mellor wrote: »

Calories per day should be a BW (in lbs) x 12 for weight loss. Target 1g per lb BW per day.

Seems very high?? 2340 for me to lose weight. All those online calculators say 1900ish.

Or is that taking workouts (3-4 per week) into account?

davyjose

Bulk to about 10-15 lbs above your desired weight. Bulk cleanly so you're well under 20% bf. Then cut for 6-8 weeks.

Rinse and repeat.

nice_guy80

JJayoo wrote: »

Beginners need simplicity. 3 full body workouts per week. Each session should have a horizontal push and pull movement and a vertical push and pull movement, and each session should contain squats and reverse lunges. Last 15 minutes of workout should be arms/side raises = pump = motivation = leave the gym feeling good = more chance that they will come back.

Yeah.
Not bad.
Add in some mobility stuff and away you go

Zillah

davyjose wrote: »

Bulk to about 10-15 lbs above your desired weight. Bulk cleanly so you're well under 20% bf. Then cut for 6-8 weeks.

Rinse and repeat.

I've heard a lot of people say that 'dirty' bulking is unnecessary. Just eat a moderate calorie surplus and lots of protein = results.

Not that the the OP, who specifically wants to change body composition - and therefore probably has 20+% already - should be bulking at all.

JJayoo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Yeah.
Not bad.
Add in some mobility stuff and away you go

The best way to guarantee a beginner doesn't come back to the gym is to get them on a foam roller.

A trainer might have 1 hour to motivate a beginner into changing his/her lifestyle. With a complete beginner I would rather give someone a good pumpy workout that makes them want to come back than spend an hour drilling technique for deadlifts and squats.

Once you have them coming back and they are enjoying the gym then you begin to bring in all the good stuff.

Alf Veedersane

JJayoo wrote: »

The best way to guarantee a beginner doesn't come back to the gym is to get them on a foam roller.

A trainer might have 1 hour to motivate a beginner into changing his/her lifestyle. With a complete beginner I would rather give someone a good pumpy workout that makes them want to come back than spend an hour drilling technique for deadlifts and squats.

Once you have them coming back and they are enjoying the gym then you begin to bring in all the good stuff.

Reminds me of starting primary school.

Week 1 of primary school: art and games.

Monday morning, Week 2: "Kids, we're going out into the rain. It's time for Irish.

Then maths."

davyjose

Zillah wrote: »

I've heard a lot of people say that 'dirty' bulking is unnecessary. Just eat a moderate calorie surplus and lots of protein = results.

Not that the the OP, who specifically wants to change body composition - and therefore probably has 20+% already - should be bulking at all.

That's why I said bulk cleanly.

It depends on his muscle mass, not his bodyfat % whether or not he needs to bulk first. It's absolutely pointless cutting before bulking. All you're doing is prolonging the time when you can start adding muscle.

jane82

Can you not just have a diet that builds muscle without adding fat on your body?
Whats with all this looking like the michelin man for half the year. I never signed up for that. Is this only for the brock lesnar type look?
Surely footballers and rugby players dont bulk and cut all year. Some of them look pretty cut all year.

Transform

JJayoo wrote: »

The best way to guarantee a beginner doesn't come back to the gym is to get them on a foam roller.

A trainer might have 1 hour to motivate a beginner into changing his/her lifestyle. With a complete beginner I would rather give someone a good pumpy workout that makes them want to come back than spend an hour drilling technique for deadlifts and squats.

Once you have them coming back and they are enjoying the gym then you begin to bring in all the good stuff.

Wow it's the first thing I do with every beginner for donkey's years and never have a issue with wanting to come back.

Mobility doesn't have to extend much beyond foam rolling and some basic stretching drills - 10mins max

JJayoo

You can access someone's mobility issues and teach them how to address these issues plus show them how to fully roll their body and teach proper technique for squats and deads in 10 minutes?

Because this is the point I was making. I wasn't saying that you should ignore the basic mobility stuff which is usually part of a warm up.

And how dare you disagree with me on my internet :pac:

Mellor

GuyFawkes wrote: »

Seems very high?? 2340 for me to lose weight. All those online calculators say 1900ish.

Or is that taking workouts (3-4 per week) into account?

At 195lbs or so, and average activity, you should lose about 1lb per week on 2300 cals per day.
I think you are misunderstand the online calculator you were using, its prob a BMR calc. At 195, BMR is just under 2000.

Zillah wrote: »

Not that the the OP, who specifically wants to change body composition - and therefore probably has 20+% already - should be bulking at all.

Not every beginner is overweight.

jane82

Id say a huge amount are underweight. I actually have never spoken to a bodybuilder that didnt claim to be real skinny starting out. I wonder if they are all telling the truth.

davyjose

jane82 wrote: »

Can you not just have a diet that builds muscle without adding fat on your body?
Whats with all this looking like the michelin man for half the year. I never signed up for that. Is this only for the brock lesnar type look?
Surely footballers and rugby players dont bulk and cut all year. Some of them look pretty cut all year.

Well a rugby player will likely bulk in the offseason. A football player won't really bulk at all. You can maintain muscle mass and still look pretty shredded, but building muscle requires a calorific surplus. You don't have to look like the michelin man, but it's very difficult (read: impossible) to build muscle and stay very lean. The average athlete won't be lower than 12-15% when competing.

jane82

Ah when you say lean you mean veins popping and what you had for dinner visible under the six pack?
When I say lean I mean you could probably suss there was muscles under the belly if you squinted.

nice_guy80

Mobility doesn't automatically mean foam rolling - just some basic exercises to warm up properly and stretch without going near a machine.

Can vastly improve a workout and how someone feels during the work out and afterwards.

Too Tough To Die

It's been a while since i have worked out, so starting again from scratch - sorting diet out... are there routines i can do at home to begin bulking? Obviously i know there is only so far you can go without equipment and heavy weights, and they will be necessary, but can i get the ball rolling without?

whirlpool

Thanks everyone, I'm finding this discussion really helpful, because there is an infinite amount of articles about this topic online but too much of it is contradictory and confusing, and unfortunately you can't ask an article to elaborate and clarify or debate, so I end up overwhelmed and confused and then just not bothering.

jane82

Just start eating loads of meat instead of crap and start working out. You learn as you go.

Zillah

Mellor wrote: »

Not every beginner is overweight.

No, but he did say:
"If a total beginner came to you and said 'I want to seriously reduce my body-fat'" which would imply his was high. He also thanked my post so I was probably right.

whirlpool

Zillah wrote: »

No, but he did say:
"If a total beginner came to you and said 'I want to seriously reduce my body-fat'" which would imply his was high. He also thanked my post so I was probably right.

My bodyfat is currently approximately 22%.

What does bulking mean exactly?

Am I right in understanding that carb-loading before and after a workout is only necessary if you have low bodyfat?

jane82

whirlpool wrote: »

My bodyfat is currently approximately 22%.

What does bulking mean exactly?

Am I right in understanding that carb-loading before and after a workout is only necessary if you have low bodyfat?

There is all sort of conflicting info out there. I firmly beleive what you eat all week is more important than an hour before or after a workout. Its just a ploy to sell shakes. If you feel overtired get a few extra clean carbs on board dont eat a pizza like.
Your body will tell you what it needs carbwise.

Mellor

Zillah wrote: »

No, but he did say:
"If a total beginner came to you and said 'I want to seriously reduce my body-fat'" which would imply his was high. He also thanked my post so I was probably right.

I thought we were talking about a hypothetical beginner, to generate discussion. Rather than the OP specifically, maybe not.

whirlpool

Mellor wrote: »

I thought we were talking about a hypothetical beginner, to generate discussion. Rather than the OP specifically, maybe not.

Yeah as much discussion as possible including why different approaches apply to the different variables, it makes it more understandable e.g. why someone with high body fat would do one thing while someone with low body fat would do another.

Understanding the reasons and the differences definitely makes me more pro active. I'd imagine it's the same for most people. I'm personally unlikely to jump into something without being 99% certain it's the productive way to go about it. (That's probably a bit neurotic of me though.)

Blacktie.

whirlpool wrote: »

Understanding the reasons and the differences definitely makes me more pro active. I'd imagine it's the same for most people. I'm personally unlikely to jump into something without being 99% certain it's the productive way to go about it. (That's probably a bit neurotic of me though.)

This can lead to paralysis by analysis. You need to take the jump and just refine it as you go.

Zillah

whirlpool wrote: »

My bodyfat is currently approximately 22%.

What does bulking mean exactly?

Am I right in understanding that carb-loading before and after a workout is only necessary if you have low bodyfat?

The idea of bulking goes like this:

To build muscle you need to do two things. One, is to work the muscles hard, to tell your body that they need to be stronger. Two, is to provide a significant calorie/protein excess so that your body has the resources to grow those muscles. If you do all of 1 but fail to do 2 then your progress will be less than ideal. It is a horrible feeling to think that you are not gaining as much muscle as you earned in the gym because you didn't eat enough of the right foods.

So bulking usually refers to the idea of eating far more than you need during the first phase (over the course of months) and thereby gaining as much muscle as you can. The downside is that you will increase your bodyfat during the process too, because it is impossible to land on exactly 100% of you target calorie intake, and they'd rather go to 120% and gain fat, than go 80% and miss out on some muscle gain.

So the second phase is 'cutting', where you adjust your diet and exercise plan to get rid of the fat you gained while keeping the muscle.

But ignore all that.

When you're starting out the important thing is to cut the crap out of your diet, eat a balanced amount of good foods, and lift lots of heavy things. You'll gain muscle, lose fat and generally feel and look better.

After that you can worry about more specific goals. Keep it simple. You'll learn more as you go and develop a more refined approach to your workout process, but no need to rush.

Eat healthy, lift things. Anything beyond that is kind of superfluous when you're starting out. Don't worry about 'carb loading' or anything so elaborate. Eat good meals, maybe a snack or two, your body will handle itself.

whirlpool

Zillah wrote: »

The idea of bulking goes like this:

To build muscle you need to do two things. One, is to work the muscles hard, to tell your body that they need to be stronger. Two, is to provide a significant calorie/protein excess so that your body has the resources to grow those muscles. If you do all of 1 but fail to do 2 then your progress will be less than ideal. It is a horrible feeling to think that you are not gaining as much muscle as you earned in the gym because you didn't eat enough of the right foods.

So bulking usually refers to the idea of eating far more than you need during the first phase (over the course of months) and thereby gaining as much muscle as you can. The downside is that you will increase your bodyfat during the process too, because it is impossible to land on exactly 100% of you target calorie intake, and they'd rather go to 120% and gain fat, than go 80% and miss out on some muscle gain.

So the second phase is 'cutting', where you adjust your diet and exercise plan to get rid of the fat you gained while keeping the muscle.

But ignore all that.

When you're starting out the important thing is to cut the crap out of your diet, eat a balanced amount of good foods, and lift lots of heavy things. You'll gain muscle, lose fat and generally feel and look better.

After that you can worry about more specific goals. Keep it simple. You'll learn more as you go and develop a more refined approach to your workout process, but no need to rush.

Eat healthy, lift things. Anything beyond that is kind of superfluous when you're starting out. Don't worry about 'carb loading' or anything so elaborate. Eat good meals, maybe a snack or two, your body will handle itself.

Excellent! Thanks!

dremo

I would say, Keep calm and juice up! That's easiest and fastest way, and If he/she want long term gains, just keep using juice! Before somebody goes all Butthurt, there is no medical prove that juice are bad for you, ****ing society and its taboos.

Blacktie.

dremo wrote: »

I would say, Keep calm and juice up! That's easiest and fastest way, and If he/she want long term gains, just keep using juice! Before somebody goes all Butthurt, there is no medical prove that juice are bad for you, ****ing society and its taboos.

Recommending a total beginner to juice up? Ye good luck with that. Where's Thor and his ban hammer!

davyjose

whirlpool wrote: »

My bodyfat is currently approximately 22%.

What does bulking mean exactly?

In order to put on muscle mass, you need to have a calorific surplus. In other words, you need to gain weight to gain muscle. Now, if you get it right, at 22% bf you can probably get away with some recomposition. I.e. you can probably lose fat while putting on muscle mass. Once you hit about 15% however, you won't lose fat if you continue to bulk. But... if you do cut and you aren't carrying much muscle, you're going to a) look anorexic, and b) struggle to get very low anyway. Because you're calorie intake will need to be very precise, and very low.

My advice: Bulk up until you're about 10-15lbs above your target weight, then cut.

davyjose

dremo wrote: »

I would say, Keep calm and juice up! That's easiest and fastest way, and If he/she want long term gains, just keep using juice! Before somebody goes all Butthurt, there is no medical prove that juice are bad for you, ****ing society and its taboos.

Juicing as a noob is a fcuking stupid idea. I mean unbelieveably brain-dead retarded. If someone feels the need to do so, at least wait until you've hit your genetic potential.

Zillah

davyjose wrote: »

In order to put on muscle mass, you need to have a calorific surplus. In other words, you need to gain weight to gain muscle. Now, if you get it right, at 22% bf you can probably get away with some recomposition. I.e. you can probably lose fat while putting on muscle mass. Once you hit about 15% however, you won't lose fat if you continue to bulk. But... if you do cut and you aren't carrying much muscle, you're going to a) look anorexic, and b) struggle to get very low anyway. Because you're calorie intake will need to be very precise, and very low.

My advice: Bulk up until you're about 10-15lbs above your target weight, then cut.

I really wouldn't even think about bulk vs cut until body fat was into the middle teens anyway. Personally I'm aiming for about 8%. At 22% you really just need to get started working out and your composition will naturally shift towards more muscle and less fat. Fine-tuning can come later (say, after three months of working on basic).

Even at 15% I'd say you could continue recomposition if you were at a small calorie deficit.

nice_guy80

Posters here are obsessed about bulking.

Clean bulk v dirty bulk.

Who gives a damn?
Just get out there and train, and watch the calories.

whirlpool

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Posters here are obsessed about bulking.

Clean bulk v dirty bulk.

Who gives a damn?
Just get out there and train, and watch the calories.

Just get out there and train is the right attitude, yeah, but I pretty much requested an in-depth analysis, hence everyone going into detail.

jane82

whirlpool wrote: »

Just get out there and train is the right attitude, yeah, but I pretty much requested an in-depth analysis, hence everyone going into detail.

Ok you want to start and lose weight while keeping the muscle you have under the fat.
Write down everything you eat in a week. Work out how to cut carbs down a decent amount and keep or up your protein dont mind exact figures for now. For example instead of pizza have a chicken breast. You do need carbs just not as many as your eating.

Find somewhere in your house where you can squat pressup dip and buy a pull up bar.(bout 20euro for a cheep one)
Get a bike or good running shoes.
2days a week cycle up a hill or jog followed by bodyweight squats.
3days pressups dips pull ups planks.

Alternate Jog cycle and rest days and take it easy at the start.
When you can do a total of 100 pressup 25 pull ups 25 dips and a few sets of planks and are starting to do one legged squats without feeling like you have worked out get the gym membership money out of the pocket.

If you cant do that many days do less. Take it easy at the start.
Maybe 2x10 press ups
3xwhat you can pull ups
2x what you can dips
and up it from there.
You get out what you put in.
The thread is 4 days old you could be 4kg lighter by now if you are anyway overweight

whirlpool

jane82 wrote: »

When you can do a total of 100 pressup 25 pull ups 25 dips

:eek: At the moment I can't even do one pull up :pac:

I have a pull-up bar in my room and I can't even make it up a third of the way :pac:

I have made changes to my diet the past two months, primarily cutting grains and any products with sugar in them. I'm making steady progress in that regard. A lot more to do. I'm cutting dairy also; cutting the dairy and grains has been primarily to see if my energy levels go up, as they've generally always been pretty low.

jane82

Well done on the start. Use a stool to assist you less and less each time on the pull ups. Its quite normal to not be able to do one.

top madra

davyjose wrote: »

Juicing as a noob is a fcuking stupid idea. I mean unbelieveably brain-dead retarded. If someone feels the need to do so, at least wait until you've hit your genetic potential.

But I want to look like Zyzz now brah!