Is Client not allowed on site???

Eamon0224

Hi Guys,

I'm just about to start a new building project.

Full planning obtained, full set of drawings etc. I work full time and am going to get a principal contractor to do the works. But I want to be able to vist the site after work and reivew progress and make sure I am happy with how things are going. I have not yet awarded the work to any contarctor and I need to get the costs down so I want to do some of the work that I excluded from the builders scope my self like painting walls etc but the architect tells me that I will not be allowed to go onsite - he said it becomes the builder' building.

This does not sit well with me, It's my project and I want to be involved in it.

Any advice?

BryanF

Painting can be done after the contractor has left the site.can you list what other works you want do?
Is your architect proposing a contract? Most make it the contractors site for the duration. You are of course allowed to visit the site at predetermined times. So perhaps that schedule of visits is just increased and outlined in the contract. However if i was the builder I'd be asking how does that work from an insurance perspective & if his works/tools/site is damaged? In reality I have rarely seen a client turned away from his/her own site.

DOCARCH

In theory your architect is correct. Under contract, the builder takes 'posession' of the site and is responsible for all that happens on that site. In theory, you have to get permssion from the contractor to enter the site (this is both to do with insurance and health & safety).

I'm sure the contractor may/will oblige you, but, it is something for discussion with the contractor.

Just pedantic here, but on the health & safety front, have you appointed a project surpervisor design process (PSDP), have you a preliminary healt and safety plan, and, will the contractor be appointed project supervisor construction stage (PSCS)?

Even if you are the client, but you intend to do work on the site, the contractor/PSCS would be within their rights to insist you have a (health & safety 'Safe Pass'.

Finally...have a look at your planning permission. If you plan to do work outside normal working hours or at weekends, there may be restrictions. Certainly in the Dublin area, planning permissions would contain restrictions on working hours/weekends.

rovoagho

If my architect told me that without explaining the details, I'd fire them. An architect that can't communicate is about as useful as a glass hammer.

Eamon0224

I have been involved in the design of this project for months so I don't feel comfortable with the idea of a contract kicking me off my project.

I am a Mechanical Engineer and am very capable at doing DIY. Before going through the tender process I did all the demolition my self pulling down all the internal stud walls fireplaces etc etc to reduce the scope of works necessary.

I watched Grand Designs all the time and I see the client who has employed a main contractor but the client is very involved in the project, it's their project, reviewing it, constantly on site, checking progress, feeding back on quality etc and to reduce cost the client works along with the main contractor doing some of the work.

For example, I don't want to pay a builder to paint the internal walls when that's something I could easily do myself so I don't see why I can't exclude that from scope and do it in the evening and weekends.

Eamon0224

Thanks ByanF, I would like to come in a do work in parallel in the evenings, after the builder has left like I am getting in a separate tiler, separate cabinet marker etc so surely I can have them come in and work in parallel with the main contractor?

I don't want to feel that I have to ask permission to come on to my own site - this is my baby!!

BryanF

Eamon0224 wrote: »

Thanks ByanF, I would like to come in a do work in parallel in the evenings, after the builder has left like I am getting in a separate tiler, separate cabinet marker etc so surely I can have them come in and work in parallel with the main contractor?

I don't want to feel that I have to ask permission to come on to my own site - this is my baby!!

As I alluded to,as docarch explained and as I'm sure your are aware working in the industry- it's best to keep a contract as simple as possible.
The works: cabinets,tiling,painting etc you have mentioned here are not unusual. But they are typically done towards the end of a contract. The way you talk of working in the evenings may just cause friction between you and the builder. Checking/ ensuring work is done to your satisfaction is a different matter.

May I ask and I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely interested: as a mechanical engineer did you study building contracts? Do you administer building contracts in your workplace? Have you researched the h&s responsibilities of you the client and the contractor? Have you researched legal cases where contracts have ran into difficulties in the areas your questioning in this thread?

glashanator

I would like to see anyone try and stop me from going onto my own build.

If when putting it out to tender, a builder states he would not want me on site during the build, then he would not be getting the job.

We have to be realistic, through a build there can be many small changes, especially on the interior that just doesn't sit right,or need adjusting/tweaking. Simple things like a door opening to the left instead of the right, because you having thought of the end game already knows where the bed is going to be.And cannot be picked up on plans until you see it for yourself.

Everything is subjective to the owner and may not be picked up on by the Architect because TBH he's probably thinking about more important issues, but may well change how you live in those spaces long term.

You need to be on the job Eamonn through out. What if your contractor wasn't up to the job? Would you let him get to the end? What if your architect had a slightly lesser sense of acceptable workmanship than you, and if you saw it , it might not be up to scratch.

As far as doing work on the site yourself or in parallel, get the appropriate insurance, if he doesn't like it , tough ****..... Its your baby!

Eamon0224

Thanks for your point of view - I appreciate it

We're working on a tight budget so I felt rather than wiping my hands on the project that I could do some smaller parts of the other works my self in parallel while the builder is doing their contracted part .

I have not built a building before but I see documentaries on Grand Designs where the client is often very hands on and does part of the work themselves to bring down cost, they don't seem to have to get permission to go onto their sites.
Is it that the building rules in Ireland are more strict than in the UK?, I understand about the need for insuarance etc but surely I can come and go in my own building, ?

Regarding my own experience, I am a Mech engineer & worked in the Automotive industry & in manufacturing for 10 years so I am good at DIY and am well able to go lots of these building jobs. I would manage the project my self and do it direct labour if I was not so busy in my own job - I work as a Project Manager in a Financial Services company.

Eamon0224

Thanks glashanator,

I completely agree with you. I have lived and breed this process so far (design and planning etc). I don't see my self changing much or anything on site. I have spend a huge amount of time thinking about the designs and ensuring it is all perfect on the drawing. I am not some one who does not put the work in at the design stage and then expects to make changes willy nilly on site - that's not the way to do it and so I put the though into the design.

No one cares about this project as much as me so I don't want anyone telling me I can't be there making sure I am happy with everything and I'm well capable of doing lots of the work (in the evening times and weekends), the building is in the country so no issue with noise and neighbours. I've saved about 8k by doing the demolition myself so apart from the insurance issue why else could I not look to reduce the builders scope and do some of the easier work my self in parallel with the builder.

To me, the comments here sound like the whole industry is all red tape.

Kristopherus

Can you not appoint yourself as the Project Manager? As in thats what you are in reality. Also include your wishes in a simple contract. If a builder won't agree, exclude him.

BryanF

Can we separate a clients right to supervision from a client coming in at night actually doing work, potentially disrupting builders work, progress or issues of insurance, h&s... Some are confusing to two.

bee06

In terms of supervision of the build my experience with our builder is they have no problem with us visiting the site and checking things over, taking measurements etc.

However actually doing work is a different thing. Say you are painting in the evening and fall and break something (or a more serious injury). The contractor is liable for this. This is leaving aside all the health and safety requirements, safe pass etc. Looking at grand designs and saying well their doing it isn't really a like for like comparison. Firstly, it's a different country and secondly, in most of those episodes the client is the project manager and is building through direct labour so the client will have taken out self build insurance and will have the liability.

4Sticks

Eamon0224 wrote: »

I don't want to feel that I have to ask permission to come on to my own site - this is my baby!!

Under contract it will not be your site. And grow up - you must not yet actually have a human baby.

4Sticks

Eamon0224 wrote: »

I watched Grand Designs all the time and I see the client who has employed a main contractor but the client is very involved in the project, it's their project, reviewing it, constantly on site, checking progress, feeding back on quality etc and to reduce cost the client works along with the main contractor doing some of the work.

Sadly Phil Hogan has tied your hands here. Since 1st March his regulations prohibit you from doing the same in Ireland.Be sure to make your feelings known during the upcoming local elections May 23rd.

mountai

The worst thing a Contractor can have happen on a job , is interference from a "Know All Client". If you don't have confidence in your Architect , then how can you have confidence in your Contractor. Take on board what your Architect tells you and don't interfere with the Contractor whilst he is on site. All the works that you describe can be done after the main works are completed. Sounds like you would be suited by a "Builders Finish" situation. You would be well advised not to communicate any concerns directly to the Contractor , rather through your Architect. I completed many building contracts during my time and would never allow a Client to work on site during these works , for obvious reasons.

4Sticks

rovoagho wrote: »

If my architect told me that without explaining the details, I'd fire them. An architect that can't communicate is about as useful as a glass hammer.

Bit self righteous don't you think. You don't have the architects version here- but why not get excited over other reasons to sack him ?

REXER

Do the Safe Pass, its usually only a day course and then you are half way there, and as a bonus its valid for 4/5 years.

4Sticks

Eamon0224 wrote: »

This does not sit well with me, It's my project and I want to be involved in it.Any advice?

Seek the guidance of your - required by health and safety legislation - Project Supervisor which I am sure you have appointed as required by the law of the land

observer2u

The OP should consider the following:

The client excludes the laying of timber floors in the house from the builders contract as it is cheaper for him to do it himself. While on site over the weekend, he puts a nail through a pipe causing a leak that causes damage to plasterboard, floors (maybe its an underfloor heating pipe which would need more work).

The contractor comes in on a Monday to find a wreck. Who is to blame? Who is responsible? If if the client accepts responsibility, would he then be prepared to pay the contractor for the delays he will suffer as a consequence of doing the repairs?

As a client, of course you can visit site - all contractors will allow this. But doing your own works in tandem is risky business for the contractor so I would understand if they were not happy to allow you on site working - and you should applaud their professionalism.

declan52

i think that if it comes to the point were the builder wont let you on site to check on progress then you have other problems. The builder will have a contract stating what he has to do and will have a timeline worked out and everything in place to complete these jobs so if the OP attempts to do work in the evening or weekend and makes a mess the job gets held up and so costs both builder and OP money. Im sure the builder wouldnt mind an extra pair of hands if plasterboard needs carried upstairs or the site needs tided up but donkey work would prob be the height of it. If it says on your contract that you are doing the tiling, painting or floors then at least everybody knows so no wires get crossed.

DOCARCH

declan52 wrote: »

i think that if it comes to the point were the builder wont let you on site to check on progress then you have other problems.

I don't think there is any question about that...anybody/everbody would be a bit worried if that scenario arose!

Eamon0224

4Sticks wrote: »

Under contract it will not be your site. And grow up - you must not yet actually have a human baby.

If you don't have something usefull to say then keep your insulting comments to yourself. It's none of your business if I have children or not!!!

Eamon0224

REXER wrote: »

Do the Safe Pass, its usually only a day course and then you are half way there, and as a bonus its valid for 4/5 years.

Thanks Rexter, I think I will do that. In addition to doing that and having my PPE & insurance what else would I need in order to be legally covered?

What type of insurance do I need?

4Sticks

Eamon0224 wrote: »

If you don't have something usefull to say

Do you have appointed a Project Supervisor as required by the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Construction) Regulations 2013 ? That person is the key to your dilemma.

Gumbo

Eamon0224 wrote: »

Thanks Rexter, I think I will do that. In addition to doing that and having my PPE & insurance what else would I need in order to be legally covered?

What type of insurance do I need?

Do you have appointed a Project Supervisor as required by the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Construction) Regulations 2013 ? That person is the key to your dilemma he/she will decide if you can do the work or not.

Eamon0224

Thanks folks for the advice. Yes I have a Project Supervisor so I will speak to them about it.

fozz10

I would never trust an architect or builder to completely oversee my build no matter how good they are supposed to be. like another poster said if they dont want u there then get another one. personally i dunno how anybody would put all trust in a builder. once its their job its in their interest to get it done as quick and cheap as possible. at least when your picking the materials and more importantly the trades men u will do everything the way you want to, in otherwards right from start to finish. anyways maybe its its just been a trades man u know what goes on with builders but i would rather get a registered friend to oversee it and pick my own men.

BryanF

BryanF wrote: »

Can we separate a clients right to supervision from a client coming in at night actually doing work, potentially disrupting builders work, progress or issues of insurance, h&s... Some are confusing to two.

Ahem!!!

Eamon0224

fozz10 wrote: »

I would never trust an architect or builder to completely oversee my build no matter how good they are supposed to be. like another poster said if they dont want u there then get another one. personally i dunno how anybody would put all trust in a builder. once its their job its in their interest to get it done as quick and cheap as possible. at least when your picking the materials and more importantly the trades men u will do everything the way you want to, in otherwards right from start to finish. anyways maybe its its just been a trades man u know what goes on with builders but i would rather get a registered friend to oversee it and pick my own men.

Yea I agree, you can't completely trust anyone, you have to know all about the job yourself and keep on top of the architect and builder. My architect had included lots of things in the project that HE wanted not want I wanted. I had to put up a fight to get him to pull these things out - you'd swear it was HIS project!!!

woodoo

Hogans new plans are madness but i wouldn't expect anything better from him.

I was involved every step of the way in my build but i did it through direct labour.

mountai

fozz10 wrote: »

I would never trust an architect or builder to completely oversee my build no matter how good they are supposed to be. like another poster said if they dont want u there then get another one. personally i dunno how anybody would put all trust in a builder. once its their job its in their interest to get it done as quick and cheap as possible. at least when your picking the materials and more importantly the trades men u will do everything the way you want to, in otherwards right from start to finish. anyways maybe its its just been a trades man u know what goes on with builders but i would rather get a registered friend to oversee it and pick my own men.

Don't know how anyone would put their trust in their Doctor either . There ARE true professionals in the construction industry as well you know. the best contractors DONT cut corners , and whilst profit is the goal, its not at the expense of standards . Yes Architects are unprofessional as well !! LOL

no1murray

Maybe all the know it alls should get together and build this house. I think this would resolve your issues

fozz10

good idea

fozz10

mountai wrote: »

Don't know how anyone would put their trust in their Doctor either . There ARE true professionals in the construction industry as well you know. the best contractors DONT cut corners , and whilst profit is the goal, its not at the expense of standards . Yes Architects are unprofessional as well !! LOL

of course there are but thats exactly it. they are professionals in their trade. but building is not a trade.builders are usually ex trades men so they might be experts in one trade and ok in others but thats it, i have yet to see a builder who gets the best trades men around. some yes but not all. even the best builders would not get the trades men u would pick your self. anyways nothing can substitute picking the trades men u have seen working over 10/20 years and know what your getting, but thanks to this government they will try to prevent u getting your house built they way they want nad u have to trust someone else

whupdedo

fozz10 wrote: »

of course there are but thats exactly it. they are professionals in their trade. but building is not a trade.builders are usually ex trades men so they might be experts in one trade and ok in others but thats it, i have yet to see a builder who gets the best trades men around. some yes but not all. even the best builders would not get the trades men u would pick your self. anyways nothing can substitute picking the trades men u have seen working over 10/20 years and know what your getting, but thanks to this government they will try to prevent u getting your house built they way they want nad u have to trust someone else

That's some pile of ****e your after posting right their bud :rolleyes:

fozz10

whupdedo wrote: »

That's some pile of ****e your after posting right their bud :rolleyes:

thanks for ur opinion. its very important to me. of all my friends that have built houses i dont think any have had a builder do their house. because when u work for years in building u realise u want it done your way by people u know. anyways each to their own. bud.

mountai

I used to love it when the "Know it all " got stuck into something without the knowledge or wherewithal to see it through. They make a horses arse of it and then have to call in a competent outfit to put things right. "Save Money" they said

---

Yeah Right!!!!

fozz10

mountai wrote: »

I used to love it when the "Know it all " got stuck into something without the knowledge or wherewithal to see it through. They make a horses arse of it and then have to call in a competent outfit to put things right. "Save Money" they said

---

Yeah Right!!!!

who said it was money related? its quality related

whupdedo

fozz10 wrote: »

thanks for ur opinion. its very important to me. of all my friends that have built houses i dont think any have had a builder do their house. because when u work for years in building u realise u want it done your way by people u know. anyways each to their own. bud.

Your talking about people with experience in the building trade, the original poster is a mechanical engineer with d i y experience who seems to think that his architect and prospective builder is out to cut corners and do him

whupdedo

mountai wrote: »

I used to love it when the "Know it all " got stuck into something without the knowledge or wherewithal to see it through. They make a horses arse of it and then have to call in a competent outfit to put things right. "Save Money" they said

---

Yeah Right!!!!

My old man used to say "theirs 1 thing worse than someone who knows **** all about it, and that's someone who thinks they know something about it "

cork2

fozz10 wrote: »

I would never trust an architect or builder to completely oversee my build no matter how good they are supposed to be. like another poster said if they dont want u there then get another one. personally i dunno how anybody would put all trust in a builder. once its their job its in their interest to get it done as quick and cheap as possible. at least when your picking the materials and more importantly the trades men u will do everything the way you want to, in otherwards right from start to finish. anyways maybe its its just been a trades man u know what goes on with builders but i would rather get a registered friend to oversee it and pick my own men.

Your average joe knows nothing about building materials and even less about a tradesmans capabilities apart form it looks nice! What happens if you get the house you wanted, it looks great and behind the scenes it's a shambles? Materials can fight with eachother and some trades don't know how to use specific materials, I know I specialise in fixing these shambles of houses for a living. The new regulations in this country aren't great but they're a step in the right direction! This self build, johnny down the roads is great, will you please build half my house for me mentality in this country must be killed at all costs. I'd never try to run a hotel or drive an ambulance.I am all for letting a client see their project every single day of the week if they please, I'll answer every one of their questions, and if possible at the time I'll make any change they want to the project, 9 times outta ten I even help them move in but that's where it stops! They wont so much as swing a hammer or pick up a paint brush while I'm on site and allowing otherwise would be unprofessional of me. People in this country don't understand health and safety or the implications of insurance. Also people here have already said it, this is not your site it is the contractors site, there will be a hoarding around the site with a gate which will be locked outside of work hours. The building will also be locked once the doors and windows are fitted and no letter, email, argument or tantrum will get the client his or her own key until the project is finished. It never ceases to amaze the amount of clients that look for a key over the christmas holidays to show family and friends around a building site!!

Eamon0224

whupdedo wrote: »

My old man used to say "theirs 1 thing worse than someone who knows **** all about it, and that's someone who thinks they know something about it "

I don't agree. As a client, you have to make it your business to lean as much as you possibly can about all aspects of the job (without being an arrogant pr**k) otherwise you could get taken for a ride.

4Sticks

I wonder why your architect is suggesting you stay off the site. If you were my client - I would sack you.

glashanator

4Sticks wrote: »

I wonder why your architect is suggesting you stay off the site. If you were my client - I would sack you.

Seriously man? .... This is your advice for a 1st time builder, who by his own admission that its all very new to him. And has come here for some wisdom beyond his own limited knowledge. Instead of helping him you berate him.

If you've nothing productive to say please leave the thread.

mountai

glashanator wrote: »

Seriously man? .... This is your advice for a 1st time builder, who by his own admission that its all very new to him. And has come here for some wisdom beyond his own limited knowledge. Instead of helping him you berate him.

If you've nothing productive to say please leave the thread.

The best advice that any "1st time builder" can get is --- Leave it to the professionals. ---- Lots didn't and paid the price.

4Sticks

glashanator wrote: »

Seriously man? .... This is your advice for a 1st time builder, who by his own admission that its all very new to him. And has come here for some wisdom beyond his own limited knowledge. Instead of helping him you berate him.

If you've nothing productive to say please leave the thread.

Bad advice is often delivered with a smile. At least the OP has you to tell him what he wants to hear.

glashanator

4Sticks wrote: »

Bad advice is often delivered with a smile. At least the OP has you to tell him what he wants to hear.

How many people have asked you to leave their threads this week 4sticks ?

Your history on other threads shows you just annoy many with your sly remarks, sarcasm and belittling of people who are not in the know and often come here for help.

You are not helping this guy,you're just getting his back up. And any good advice you may have , is probably lost amongst your digs at him. You just seem like you're trolling half the time.

To be honest, you MAY be knowlegable in your field of practice, but I think you'd be impossible to work with.

As said before, give him advice, its up to him to take it or leave it.But don't come here to abuse him.

h2005

glashanator wrote: »

Seriously man? .... This is your advice for a 1st time builder, who by his own admission that its all very new to him. And has come here for some wisdom beyond his own limited knowledge. Instead of helping him you berate him.

If you've nothing productive to say please leave the thread.

Congrats on the mod job.

fealeranger

I did my own selfbuild 2 years ago through direct labour and though it was a hell of a ride it is tough going to keep the ball rolling while working at the same time. I never heard of the rule where contractors do not let clients onto the site during construction. From reading the thread I get the impression from the Architect and Engineering guys that the rule is there but not enforced so I can't see the contractor having issues with this. Now I am not a builder but I would not agree with you doing bits and bobs to the house while the contractor is there. I am an elctro-mechanical engineer, similar to your position and I will put it to you like this. If you had a project to do that involved a few weeks work you would not like anybody messing around with it in the evenings or weekends. This is the way the contractor will see things. The insurance side of things is not an issue on this IMO because insurance is there to cover accidents whenever and where ever they may occur on site, day or night. If you want to do what you are suggesting and work in the evenings then you need to become the contractor and hire the hands as needed and plan out the build. This is the way to a modern self build project. It can be done you just need to find out how. Maybe some of the Engineering brains here could tell us how to go about a self build under the modern regulations. Self build was not done away with under new regulation it was regulated to avoid blackmarket deals and pay tax on labour carried out by professionals and oh I forgot to put some responsibility on the professinals carring out the works.

DOCARCH

fealeranger wrote: »

I never heard of the rule where contractors do not let clients onto the site during construction.

Just so as not to loose focus here...nobody is suggesting that the client is not allowed to visit the site, look at stuff, ask questions, etc...what is in question is if the work is being carried out by a main contractor, under a standard building contract, should the client be allowed on site to actually carry out work on the project, in tandem with the works the main contractor is carrying out and (crucially) oustside the hours the main contractor is on site?