New Luas lines or extensions after BXD

monument

As Luas BXD or cross city is underway, what new Luas routes would like to see? In Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland?

While I defended BRT in recent threads, I also said my preference is Luas.

While as much segregation as possible is preferable with rail or at least more effective, there is a place for modern surface trams. Although I'm sure some people responding will (a) want to talk down the or one of the most successful sections of railway aka the red line in the city centre, or (b) try to claim Dublin is completely different to the many EU cities with surface trams.

markpb

I'd prefer to see Luas than BRT to the airport although I'm torn about the route - Drumcondra seems like the obvious choice but DCU would be a great trip generator and also has the advantage of introducing people to good public transport when they move to Dublin. Serving both by on-street rail would make the trip too slow though.

After that, I'd love to see the Sligo and Maynooth trains rerouted into Heuston (in preparation for DU) and their current rail line converted to tram operation. I genuinely believe the people of Ashtown, PPR and Cabra are poorly served by the current suburban service. A more frequent but lower capacity tram service would have the same total capacity but give a much better service. Those people live the same distance from town as Milltown or Sandyford but can only dream of a tram every five minutes, at 12:30 on weeknights or 11:30 on Sunday nights.

Strumms

The Northside is completely under served by any rail / Luas. Unless you happen to live right on the Dart line.

Unfortunately the people who we vote in, under whatever moniker couldn't get their fingers out of their asses and deliver a comprehensive metro for Dublin at a time when we had the resources. Maybe not quite enough in the pot to look after their developer and building trade mates with bungs and such at that time and the will and leadership wasn't there to make it happen. That would be the solution. The Luas is fine for the city and it's immediate suburbs.

Either way we need a link to the airport that serves the north side that in time could develop into spurs to connect with intercity services etc. we will see the Luas developed and expended before that however as it's a cheaper option although will still go always to skirt around the problem of transport and link thereof on the Northside.

devnull

The first part of DUblin that needs transport sorting out is the North of the city and especially the North West, it has been starved of any proper mass transport infrastructure for a long time and doesn't have anywhere near the choices and options that the south side has.

If the airport dart/metro from the city centre is going to go ahead it needs to also open up other opportunities to parts of the city that are not served for me. Just duplicating the service that is currently there by Aircoach and Airlink to serve people on the south of the city is ridiculous and a complete waste of money, when there are other areas of the city which are in far more need of infrastructure.

It's far more important to sort out the derth of transport infrastructure in the North of the city than these issues, since there people really have no choice but to use bus. Pretty much everyone on the North of the city has to used taxis to get to the airport, or take a detour to the city centre. It's ridiculous but is the way it is and for people on the south to complain that they want a direct airport link when they already have far better transport than the rest of the city is crazy.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't eventually build the link to the airport, but for me there are other areas of the city that are in dire need of investment, the southside has had way more of it's share of investment over the years, it's time for the North to get it's share and if the southsiders are complaining about that, then they don't know how lucky they are.

Jamie2k9

Airport needs a high speed rail link and a metro is the only way for it, it can't be over ground as it just won't be quick enough. However personally Metro North plans would be scrapped and looked at again.

As for outside of Dublin, I'm sure Cork and Galway would do well with a Luas system on a smaller scale. Possible similar to the scale in Edinburgh however without the shambles it has become which has taken around 8 years to build and a trams has yet to run.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Airport needs a high speed rail link and a metro is the only way for it, it can't be over ground as it just won't be quick enough. However personally Metro North plans would be scrapped and looked at again..

I agree that ideally there should be such a link, but there are other areas of the city which are needing proper mass transport links more and they should be given priority. I hear all the time the argument that the access to the airport from the city centre is poor, but from the north west and north central it's basically non existent, either a taxi or a diversion into the city centre and back up to the airport.

Metro North and Metro West for me are both badly needed more than any airport link since they bring mass public transport to areas which are chronically undeserved and are heavily reliant on an average at best bus service, almost exclusively involving travel to the city centre, and taxis if one would like to use the airport without long journeys.

Meanwhile on the southside there is a much better rail service, two luas lines serving large parts of it, and the best bus services in the city, express buses to the airport and the Port Tunnel as well. But lets remember they have it so bad.

L1011

I consider Line F to be important as it starts to give us an actual network of lines within the city; after it splits off at Fatima again. There's a definite need to look at having more lines in this vein if we want people to actually change transport mode. Dublin Bus simply is not an attractive option for any distance of travel.

strassenwo!f

You'd certainly like to see the connection between Broadstone and the Royal Canal used to its fullest extent, eventually.

If it's only used for the BXD line, then there are rate-limiting factors elsewhere in the city which would prevent that unhindered corridor being used fully.

I obviously don't know how this could best be done. But it certainly is quite different to the Green Line, where there are plenty of pedestrian crossing points along the route which limit throughput. The Broadstone - Canal section doesn't have these, so should be ideal for high frequency tram services.

strassenwo!f

For example: instead of continuing the BXD north from Brombridge just to Finglas, continue it (i) to Finglas and, separately, (ii) to some other northside location, maybe even the airport. At the southern end of this corridor, have a line peel off before Broadstone, across the road (near St. Brendan's) through the Grangegorman Campus. Then into a short tunnel under the Stoneybatter bottleneck onto nice, wide Blackhall Place and down to the red line Luas where it could then either go to Heuston or the Point, or maybe even across the river toward the proposed Lucan LUAS.

The Broadstone - Canal link is capable of much more than LUAS BXD is.

Victor

Broombridge to Finglas / Charlestown and possibly on to the airport.

Tthe Point to either (or both) the south docks / Ringsend and East Point / Clontarf Road.

F1 (Fatima-College Green) would be useful in improving the service speed into the city centre.

Parnell Street to Ballybough.

SSG to Lansdowne Road DART.

Banjoxed

In no particular order:

Bride's Glen to Bray - because Sandyford and Dundrum traffic works both northbound and southbound. And it's a final whizz on Tod Andrew's grave.

Line F to Lucan.

I'll echo Victor's suggestion about extending BXD through Finglas and out to the airport, if Metro North and West are brown bread.

end of the road

markpb wrote: »

After that, I'd love to see the Sligo and Maynooth trains rerouted into Heuston (in preparation for DU) and their current rail line converted to tram operation.

how would you do it though? that would surely mean the construction of a new line from maynooth to somewhere to link into heuston wouldn't it not? also sligo passengers mightn't want to be re-routed into heuston

markpb wrote: »

I genuinely believe the people of Ashtown, PPR and Cabra are poorly served by the current suburban service. A more frequent but lower capacity tram service would have the same total capacity but give a much better service. Those people live the same distance from town as Milltown or Sandyford but can only dream of a tram every five minutes, at 12:30 on weeknights or 11:30 on Sunday nights.

i agree that may be the case but wouldn't it cause more headaches then it would solve in relation to the heavy rail system currently using the line/route?

Muahahaha

As a resident of Charlestown Finglas I'd love to see the BXD be continued on to Fi glas and then the airport and then Swords. The Drumcondra route is already well served by Aircoach and Dublin Bus whereas here in Finglas a five mile journey to the airport/Swords takes over an hour as you have to get a bus into town and then another out of town, you have to spend around half an hour going backwards to go forwards again, it's insane. It would be some achievement if some day you could go all the way from Sandyford to the airport on the Luas with only one change at Abbey a Street.

Other than that I really think a spur should be built off the red line beyond Hueston to run through Ballyfermot, Palmerstown, Lucan and then finish up in Maynooth or Celbridge. The west of Dublin has a huge population and it's crying out for a better link to town than what Dublin Bus currently offer.

I think by and large the south side is more than adequately served by Luas thus far and any investment in Luas beyond BXD should be ring fenced for either the north or the west sides of the city.

Jamie2k9

I agree about Line F and it would ease pressure on red line between Heuston and Connolly by people changing to finish at Collage Green. The next line is unlikely for 10 years and included in the 2020-2024 rounds of investment as DART Underground is likely to be given go ahead in part during the 2016-2020 spend which will probably take most of the funding.

If given a choice would people prefer Dart Underground or another Luas line in 2016-2020 spend? Can't help but feel Luas would be a better spend but then again Dart Underground would benefit commuters on Heuston commuter belts.

cmore123

Diverting Sligo line trains into Heuston isn't possible on the existing railway network. I think that a heavy rail line maybe off the Belfast line into the airport is very desirable. The tram should serve Phibsborough, Finglas and Swords. Also, extension of the green line to Bray. Possibly another line out through Rathmines / Terenure / Templeogue to Rathfarnham?

While it wouldn't be a million miles away from the northern DART line, a tram route out through Artane / Donnycarney / Clare Hall, as that area is often badly congested with traffic, would be good.

_Kaiser_

Agree with the above re north side Dublin - woefully neglected in terms of public transport for decades - but seeing as these are mainly working-class or welfare areas containing people who vote SF or not at all, it's not surprising that the only real improvement (the DART) was aligned along the well-heeled coastal regions.

Contrast with south Dublin with it's DART, LUAS, 46A and it's plain to see where the investment goes. Ironically they'd probably do better on the north side but that would also require a determined effort to deal with the social problems in those areas (caused in part by the lack of investment generally) which there's no political will to do either. We've already seen the results of this with the existing Red Line.

Someone raised a good point on the rail thread though - we simply don't have the density or public mindset to justify the expense for these sort of schemes. The population of the whole country is only a fraction of some of the bigger cities on the continent and yet we expect the same services? Then there's the fact that Irish people don't want to live in high-density areas and consider public transport to be the choice for those with no better options.

Given all this a reality check needed I think.

Zebra3

I don't think extending the green line to Bray should be a priority next. By all means safeguard the possible line from development, but I think there's a lot of land to be developed yet around the last extension on that line first.

An upgrade to the Maynooth line would do a lot for the west of the city, if feed properly with buses, so with regard Luas, an extension on from Broombridge would be logical as would the Fatima-College Green line.

Assuming DU does get built at some stage in the future, you'd have a great number of well placed lines coming into the city centre from all directions.

Would any extension from the Point to Eastpoint be used off-peak?

ongarboy

devnull wrote: »

The first part of DUblin that needs transport sorting out is the North of the city and especially the North West, it has been starved of any proper mass transport infrastructure for a long time and doesn't have anywhere near the choices and options that the south side has.

In fairness though, (assuming we're referring to the same geographical location) is the north west that badly served? You have quite frequent commuter rail services along the Maynooth line (capturing parts of Blanch/Castleknock/Coolmine/Clonsilla/Ongar) which has been further improved with the spur to Dunboyne. The 37/38/39/39A/70 are frequent and the 39A in particular has vastly improved in directness and time savings and the new BRT is on the way for the same route. Places like Mulhuddart, Tyrellstown and maybe Finglas etc are quite poorly served alright however but I imagine it's not feasible for every suburb to have rail connectivity.

Morf

Should transport policy be looking to increase housing density closer to Dublin centre rather than cause more ribbon development along a green extension to Bray?

Should higher density and how transport planning could affect that be considered?

expectationlost

what was the letter of the line that was at some point far in future supposed to go through beaumont to kilbarrack?

Banjoxed

Morf wrote: »

Should transport policy be looking to increase housing density closer to Dublin centre rather than cause more ribbon development along a green extension to Bray?

Should higher density and how transport planning could affect that be considered?

There is a high frequency transport corridor nearly all the way to Bray. It is insane not to use that to its greatest potential and to provide good connections south as well as from the city centre to the central section of the line between Sandyford and Dundrum.

icdg

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

Banjoxed

icdg wrote: »

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

I believe the GSR did draw up plans sometime in the forties to divert the Midland line from before Leixlip (now Leixlip LB) and run via Barnhall to the South Western line between Hazelhatch and Lucan South. This only made very marginal sense when Ballina/Westport/Galway trains ran on the Midland via Mullingar and into Westland Row, and capacity was limited on the GSR side of Amiens Street, but none whatsoever now.

TheBandicoot

icdg wrote: »

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

Exactly. As a D15 user of the Maynooth line, I don't want it replaced with a Luas line, I would rather see it upgraded to a better heavy rail service.

cgcsb

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Someone raised a good point on the rail thread though - we simply don't have the density or public mindset to justify the expense for these sort of schemes. The population of the whole country is only a fraction of some of the bigger cities on the continent and yet we expect the same services? Then there's the fact that Irish people don't want to live in high-density areas and consider public transport to be the choice for those with no better options.

Given all this a reality check needed I think.

That's a myth really, Dublin has similar overall pop and density compared to Amsterdam, Vienna, Lyon, Copenhagen etc. all of which invest substantially in rail based transport. High density living in Dublin has been made impared by planning authorities. Even central areas of Dublin are restricted to less than 6 floors and apartments now require dual aspect windows, it's impossible for developers to make a profit on those terms. There is a high demand for rental properties in Dublin which is why it's almost as expensive as London.

LXFlyer

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Agree with the above re north side Dublin - woefully neglected in terms of public transport for decades - but seeing as these are mainly working-class or welfare areas containing people who vote SF or not at all, it's not surprising that the only real improvement (the DART) was aligned along the well-heeled coastal regions.

Contrast with south Dublin with it's DART, LUAS, 46A and it's plain to see where the investment goes. Ironically they'd probably do better on the north side but that would also require a determined effort to deal with the social problems in those areas (caused in part by the lack of investment generally) which there's no political will to do either. We've already seen the results of this with the existing Red Line.

Someone raised a good point on the rail thread though - we simply don't have the density or public mindset to justify the expense for these sort of schemes. The population of the whole country is only a fraction of some of the bigger cities on the continent and yet we expect the same services? Then there's the fact that Irish people don't want to live in high-density areas and consider public transport to be the choice for those with no better options.

Given all this a reality check needed I think.

I think that you're being a little unfair in saying that there has been no public transport investment in north Dublin - it has had several additional bus routes added - the 4, 40d, 140, Swords Express, with existing routes on the other QBCs straightened such as the 13 and 39a, better integration of existing routes on the QBCs, larger vehicles on the key Blanchardstown routes and now has the prospect of two BRT routes being added.

The reality is that the investment in rail on the south side to date has been on routes that were already in existence (DART / Green Line) and which would have had very high car usage.However, I'd hardly think that the Red line would be described as well heeled by any means.

I'd imagine that if and when money is available, that the next extension for LUAS would be from Broombridge to Finglas, and that could possibly be extended subsequently to the Airport.

However, if it is decided to extend to the Airport, then I would prefer to see a DART connection to the Airport via Clongriffen (with interchange there to/from Belfast) over Metro North.

I'm not so convinced by the potential benefits from line F - It certainly would be slower than the 25a/25b to/from Lucan given the on-street priority those routes have, and I think that it could actually be not that much faster than the existing bus service to/from Ballyfermot given the route that it takes.

Nor am I as convinced as others seem to be by extending the Green Line further south - it is already slower than the 145 bus from Cherrywood to St Stephen's Green, due to the route taken (which is the correct route as it serves the more populated areas), and whether the market to/from Dundrum or Sandyford is that big from points south of Cherrywood. Personally I think that developing a P & R site at Cherrywood should be more of a priority.

markpb

icdg wrote: »

Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Exactly. As a D15 user of the Maynooth line, I don't want it replaced with a Luas line, I would rather see it upgraded to a better heavy rail service.

Signalling upgrades are neither cheap nor simple. The removal of each level crossing cost millions, the ongoing operation of them costs hundreds of thousands per year. Finding space to terminate any extra trains from Maynooth on the Dart line or at any of it's stations is almost impossible without significant work. All this means that the chances of the Maynooth line being upgraded in it's current form in any meaningful way is close to zero.

Meanwhile, the people of Clonsilla, Castleknock, Ashtown, etc are penalised for living on a suburban line. Compare the service per hour and operating hours of the Maynooth line to the Sandyford line:

Suburban (Western)
Weekday 36 per day (17h service)
Saturday 18 per day (16h service)
Sunday 13 per day (10h service)

Luas (Green)
Weekday 144 per day (20h service)
Saturday 92 per day (18h service)
Sunday 70 per day (16h service)

The Luas averages 27kph between Sandyford and St. Stephens Green, the suburban train averages 30kph so heavy rail isn't providing any speed benefit to passengers, even after they've waited multiples longer for their train in the first place.

Every rail alignment in the city, of which there are very few, should be carrying the maximum number of passengers possible, otherwise it's being wasted. In 2013, the two Luas lines carried 90,000 passengers per day (hitting a maximum of 145,000 in 2007). In 2011, the Maynooth line was only carrying 15,000. Unless those numbers have risen considerably, that line would be better served carrying a more frequent tram service for people living in Dublin.

Aard

For reference:

The Randstad Rail lines between the Hague and Zoetermeer in Holland run on converted heavy rail tracks.

Apart from being financially attractive in the long run, there are other benefits to converting heavy rail lines to light rail where appropriate. It is easier to run a more frequent service. Frequency of service is often a major stumbling block to the success of transport lines. 15 minutes is considered bare-minimum, 10-minutes is good, and 5 minutes is fantastic. Secondly, it is easier to route light rail through the existing built environment. Much more difficult and expensive to do so with heavy rail.

I'm not saying that converting part or all of the line through Blanch to light rail is a good or bad idea, just that there is recent precedent and that it may prove attractive in the long-run for Dublin 15's public transport needs.

Infini

Maynooth line definately needs investment at the very least besides the removal of level crossings is electrification of the line. Would probably mean a DART depot might need to be built out that end as well as eventually they might need more trains or dispersion of trains to provide better service. Best location for that would possibly be on the M3 spur since its mostly open land there too.

Also a question on the M3 spur running all the way to navan as well since that a pretty large population centre as well.

As for luas while it makes sense in having an interchange what doesnt make sense is having it at BROOMBRIDGE of all places since everything that goes in there is wrecked by the local junkie groups unless the plan a serious fumigation of the local pests C_C. While it would be a good thing if it was ultimately extended all the way to the airport it would also make sense to build a heavy rail interconnector that was proposed as well.

end of the road

markpb wrote: »

Signalling upgrades are neither cheap nor simple. The removal of each level crossing cost millions, the ongoing operation of them costs hundreds of thousands per year. Finding space to terminate any extra trains from Maynooth on the Dart line or at any of it's stations is almost impossible without significant work. All this means that the chances of the Maynooth line being upgraded in it's current form in any meaningful way is close to zero.

Meanwhile, the people of Clonsilla, Castleknock, Ashtown, etc are penalised for living on a suburban line. Compare the service per hour and operating hours of the Maynooth line to the Sandyford line:

Suburban (Western)
Weekday 36 per day (17h service)
Saturday 18 per day (16h service)
Sunday 13 per day (10h service)

Luas (Green)
Weekday 144 per day (20h service)
Saturday 92 per day (18h service)
Sunday 70 per day (16h service)

The Luas averages 27kph between Sandyford and St. Stephens Green, the suburban train averages 30kph so heavy rail isn't providing any speed benefit to passengers, even after they've waited multiples longer for their train in the first place.

Every rail alignment in the city, of which there are very few, should be carrying the maximum number of passengers possible, otherwise it's being wasted. In 2013, the two Luas lines carried 90,000 passengers per day (hitting a maximum of 145,000 in 2007). In 2011, the Maynooth line was only carrying 15,000. Unless those numbers have risen considerably, that line would be better served carrying a more frequent tram service for people living in Dublin.

heres the thing mark, to convert the maynooth line to tram train will surely mean a new line having to be built to re-route the sligo and longford services into heuston? where is that line going to be built? i honestly don't think this is an option

Banjoxed

Aard wrote: »

For reference:

The Randstad Rail lines between the Hague and Zoetermeer in Holland run on converted heavy rail tracks.

Apart from being financially attractive in the long run, there are other benefits to converting heavy rail lines to light rail where appropriate. It is easier to run a more frequent service. Frequency of service is often a major stumbling block to the success of transport lines. 15 minutes is considered bare-minimum, 10-minutes is good, and 5 minutes is fantastic. Secondly, it is easier to route light rail through the existing built environment. Much more difficult and expensive to do so with heavy rail.

I'm not saying that converting part or all of the line through Blanch to light rail is a good or bad idea, just that there is recent precedent and that it may prove attractive in the long-run for Dublin 15's public transport needs.

Best plan would be to convert the Maynooth line to DART. Higher capacity, considerably faster and attractive to car drivers. Oh wait..

Julius Seizure

Why can't both be done? There aren't too many space constraints along that line, something similar to the NEX running along the trackbed of the Robin Hood line between Hucknall and Northampton could be interesting. Or make it like a Belgian Premetro. I don't think blatant downgrading is a good idea

MayoSalmon

Either dart extension from Clongriffin or Howth Junction to Dublin Airport or extend Broombridge through Finglas to it.

Aard

Banjoxed wrote: »

Best plan would be to convert the Maynooth line to DART. Higher capacity, considerably faster and attractive to car drivers. Oh wait..

"Oh wait" what?

Muahahaha

Slightly OT but can anyone tell me the route of the Dart Underground ? Does it have any stops or just go direct Connolly to Hueston ?

markpb

Banjoxed wrote: »

Best plan would be to convert the Maynooth line to DART. Higher capacity, considerably faster and attractive to car drivers. Oh wait..

Dart to Maynooth would be prohibitively expensive and, given the loadings on the line right now, isn't warranted. People look at packed trains and think Maynooth to Connolly is the next Jubilee line but it isn't - the packed trains are as much a side-effect of the infrequent service as anything else.

Anyone waiting for this project will be waiting a long time. Almost as long as they wait for their trains on a Sunday... ;-)

Edit: Dart from Malahide to Bray averages 27kph, exactly the same as Luas and slightly slower than the western suburban line.

Edit Edit: "Dart is more attractive to car drivers (than Luas)" - have you got anything to back that up? It's no faster, less frequent and passengers don't give a damn about higher capacity as long as they get on. It's also staffed by Irish Rail which, unfairly, people associate with unions and strikes.

Aard

Muahahaha wrote: »

Slightly OT but can anyone tell me the route of the Dart Underground ? Does it have any stops or just go direct Connolly to Hueston ?

DU goes nowhere near Connolly (relatively speaking)!

The route is: (...Park West), Inchicore, Heuston, Christchurch, Stephen's Green, Pearse, Docklands, (Clontarf Road...)

Banjoxed

markpb wrote: »

Dart to Maynooth would be prohibitively expensive and, given the loadings on the line right now, isn't warranted. People look at packed trains and think Maynooth to Connolly is the next Jubilee line but it isn't - the packed trains are as much a side-effect of the infrequent service as anything else.

Anyone waiting for this project will be waiting a long time. Almost as long as they wait for their trains on a Sunday... ;-)

Edit: Dart from Malahide to Bray averages 27kph, exactly the same as Luas and slightly slower than the western suburban line.

Edit Edit: "Dart is more attractive to car drivers (than Luas)" - have you got anything to back that up? It's no faster, less frequent and passengers don't give a damn about higher capacity as long as they get on. It's also staffed by Irish Rail which, unfairly, people associate with unions and strikes.

Interesting,

"Given the loadings of the line right now" is the same trap as presuming bus ridership is the only predictor of future rail use. Not playing that one.

And your bracketed bit (than Luas) didn't exist in my post.

You will be aware of greater line sharing and more stops on the coastal routes.

Plus the whole point of DART Underground is to reconfigure DART as Maynooth - Bray and Hazlehatch - Howth giving greater capacity, and less restrictions in the city centre. Therefore more speed. That was the point, and any structures built on the Western and South Western lines since 1981 have been built with electrification in mind.

icdg

markpb wrote: »

Signalling upgrades are neither cheap nor simple. The removal of each level crossing cost millions, the ongoing operation of them costs hundreds of thousands per year. Finding space to terminate any extra trains from Maynooth on the Dart line or at any of it's stations is almost impossible without significant work. All this means that the chances of the Maynooth line being upgraded in it's current form in any meaningful way is close to zero.

.

Are you really telling me that automating level crossings on an existing line is more expensive than constructing a brand new railway line, on land CIE doesn't own and would need to be CPO-ed, in the Dublin suburbs, with no existing reservation? And that's only a prelude to the removal of an existing railway line and the demolition of the existing stations to be replaced from scratch with a tram line? Presumably in this scenario you'd need to replace all the level crossings with traffic lights anyway?

And meanwhile what about commuters in Maynooth whose rail service would be reduced from 40 trains a day in each direction to 9, based on current service patterns? The students in the university many of whom may be from Dublin 15 and would no longer have a public transport connection to Maynooth? Are they all to buy cars?

roddney

Victor wrote: »

Broombridge to Finglas / Charlestown and possibly on to the airport.

Tthe Point to either (or both) the south docks / Ringsend and East Point / Clontarf Road.

In the context of sweating the current lines, these are big ones for me. Both areas have good population density compared to Green Luas they wanted to extend with developer levies.

In particular extending The Point Luas to East Point and either tunnelling under bay to get to Clontarf of swinging past Clontarf station seems a no brainer. Luas could then conceivable head up the Malahide Road from here.

I'd say it would be difficult to route though Clontarf streets given value and age of properties here as well as narrow streets. Residents would go nuts. Also difficult to do promenade given it's part of Dublin Bay EPA. A 3.5 km arcing tunnel from back of East Point taking in Veron Ave, Harmonstown Station and Artane Roundaout and onto Malahide Road could work, giving a good service and not taking away too much from buses which are pinched on both Howth Road and lower part of Malahide Road. Cheaper option is bay and lower part of Vernon Ave (to stop flooding) and then surface via Veron Ave, Sybill Hill and Brookwood to Artane Roundabout.

dowlingm

I would say Luas F1 (Lucan) operating as a branch of Line A in terms of quick-ish completion and bang for buck. If budget is a problem I would halt the alignment at the former Metro West crossing.

F2 (Liberties) is going to be expensive and timeconsuming to thread through the city centre once unmapped utilities, basements and whatnot have to be surveyed and allowed for, so that shouldn't be permitted to hold up F1, especially since a depot on that alignment would be required to stable enough trams to do F2 anyway. Having the F and D depots gives a bit more flexibility in bringing trams into service on different lines, especially if a problem at Sandyford or Red Cow meant borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

Luas F map: http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20F/LuasLineFMapV2%20201008.jpg

As I've argued here in the past, Metro West's projected numbers were closer to a LUAS than a higher capacity mode. Accordingly, if it was considered important to proceed with something in that corridor, I would build the Line A-Clondalkin-Kildare Line-Liffey Valley/Line F1 section first with Luas West trams dispatched from F1 depot, and then build north towards the Maynooth line crossing and beyond and if feasible a Line A-Line B orbital connection. Ideally any extension of D beyond Broombridge (which I'm of the understanding is possible although I'd love to see how they plan to do it given how the current D terminus is hemmed in) would also meet Luas West forming a resilient network of hub/spoke and orbital trams.

MayoSalmon

So we could possibly have...Luas, Dart, Metro, Commuter rail, Bus, BRT.

Excuse my French but What an absolute cluster fcuk.

dowlingm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

So we could possibly have...Luas, Dart, Metro, Commuter rail, Bus, BRT.

Excuse my French but What an absolute cluster fcuk.

One mode doesn't fit all - most decent size cities have a variety of modes. Of that list Metro (or at least Metro West) is the hardest sell for me.

In Toronto we have commuter rail, commuter bus, urban bus (standard and artic), streetcar, light rail (under construction), light metro and subway.

tp25

monument wrote: »

or elsewhere in Ireland?
...

Greystones to Bray (Co.Wicklow both)

afatbollix

This is what I would do in the short term.

Extend the Red line out to East wall. Run it during the week office hours only.

Have a new spur off the red line at James st running down to Trinity. This would ease the amount of trams going over the river.


Then the long term stuff:

Have a spur off the red line to run through Phinox park out to Blanchardstown Centre.
Metro North is a must to be honest but all the lines are a good idea.

Victor

icdg wrote: »

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

end of the road wrote: »

heres the thing mark, to convert the maynooth line to tram train will surely mean a new line having to be built to re-route the sligo and longford services into heuston? where is that line going to be built? i honestly don't think this is an option

There are a number of options of removing the Sligo / Longford trains from interfering with the Maynooth Line / Loop Line.

Options
* Send Sligo trains to Docklands.
* Provide a new connection to Heuston.
* Provide third track sassing loops where space is available.

Attached map
* Red - cheap option, doesn't do much other than change the terminus. It would be slightly useful for people heading to the south and west of the country.
* Blue - really expensive option, but could be tied into DART Underground. It would need lots of cut and cover.
* Black - existing railways.

end of the road

Victor wrote: »

There are a number of options of removing the Sligo / Longford trains from interfering with the Maynooth Line / Loop Line.

Options
* Send Sligo trains to Docklands.
* Provide a new connection to Heuston.
* Provide third track sassing loops where space is available.

Attached map
* Red - cheap option, doesn't do much other than change the terminus. It would be slightly useful for people heading to the south and west of the country.
* Blue - really expensive option, but could be tied into DART Underground. It would need lots of cut and cover.
* Black - existing railways.

option 3 would probably be the most realistic IMO as it would benefit maynooth trains also, option 2 could as you said be tied in with DU (infact doesn't DU by default offer this connection as part of the route?) . option 1 i can't see going down well with sligo/longford passengers unless they actually want to go there? (i bet the stops at pierce and tara by rosslare trains annoy some passengers but the stop at tara benefited me as it offered easier access to the busses i used)

Cool Mo D

I think the priority with the Luas has to be expanding the network inside the M50. That is where the ridership is, that is where there is high-density building, that is where traffic is heaviest and good public transport in highest demand.

After BXD, and extension to the Finglas and on to the airport is a no-brainer in my opinion - especially since Metro North is looking unlikely. Followed by Luas Line E. I know this would be a tricky line to build, with gardens needing to be taken and lots of junctions but it goes through the highest density residential area outside the canal which could badly do with better public transport options.
Another options, where there is space for an alignment is to run a Luas line along the Dodder from Milltown to Templeogue, before running down the median of the Tallaght bypass and linking with the Red line in Tallaght. This would effectively link up a huge number of south side suburbs, while providing another Tallaght-City link.

This leaves a huge gap on the Northside between the DART in the East and the Luas through Finglas in the East. This is where Metro North would make a huge difference, but in the absence of Metro North, a Luas link could run down either the Ballymun or Swords road. It's tricky to find a good route to get them into the city centre from there though.

Line F is another line that should be built, though I think that instead of running along Thomas Street and Dame Street it should run along Cork Street and Kevin Street, meeting the existing Green Line at Stephens Green. This would open up much of the city to the new line, as running along Thomas street is very close to the existing Red line, and to Dart Underground.

Victor

cmore123 wrote: »

Possibly another line out through Rathmines / Terenure / Templeogue to Rathfarnham?

The suggested line E would probably be much better to do as a QBC or BRT as it would be entirely on-road.

While it wouldn't be a million miles away from the northern DART line, a tram route out through Artane / Donnycarney / Clare Hall, as that area is often badly congested with traffic, would be good.

Again QBC or BRT would be better.

Muahahaha

Just a question about Luas going to the airport over Metro North. Did the RPA ever seriously consider it back in the planning stages or has it just entered the mix since Metro North got shelved ? Also would Luas be able to handle the capacity of Dublin airport ? I'm just thinking that if it begun in Swords and then went to stops outside the two terminals then they would need very high frequencies because even at a capacity of 300 people per tram it could still struggle to cope with Ryanair and Aer Lingus dropping 200 people out of the sky every 10 minutes or so. Are there any figures out there for averages of people taking Aircoach/Dublin Bus from the airport to the city ?

Victor

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just a question about Luas going to the airport over Metro North. Did the RPA ever seriously consider it back in the planning stages or has it just entered the mix since Metro North got shelved ? Also would Luas be able to handle the capacity of Dublin airport ? I'm just thinking that if it begun in Swords and then went to stops outside the two terminals then they would need very high frequencies because even at a capacity of 300 people per tram it could still struggle to cope with Ryanair and Aer Lingus dropping 200 people out of the sky every 10 minutes or so. Are there any figures out there for averages of people taking Aircoach/Dublin Bus from the airport to the city ?

There is a Dublin Bus 747 every 15 minutes

Aircoach have
700 - 30 minutes
702 - 60 minutes
703 - 60 minutes

I'm sure a tram could cope. That said, to remain time competitive, not all trams might stop at all stops.