Man arrested in Derry under anti-terrorism legislation - for using Irish.

GaelMise

Incredulity from Judge as man on terror charge for giving police his details in Irish

A man who gave his name and address in Irish when he was stopped by police has appeared at Londonderry Magistrates Court charged under anti-terrorism legislation.
District judge Barney McElholm asked: "Was the sum total of this case -- that he gave his name in Irish?"

Judge McElholm said: "One wonders what would have happened if Mr Douglas had been Romanian or Chinese." The defence solicitor said his client felt he was entitled to have the case heard in Irish, and the judge said he was amenable, as long as there was "due consideration for the public purse".

The mind boggels at the mentality of a police officer that thinks it's reasonable to arrest someone simply for using Irish. Hopefully the Judge will have the good sense to have this quashed and use what influence he has to see this kind of nonsense is not repeated.
I actually checked the date of the artical just to make sure it was not an Aprils fools day joke.

senordingdong

Was he by any chance shouting 'tiocfaidg ar lá' at the officer?

GaelMise

senordingdong wrote: »

Was he by any chance shouting 'tiocfaidg ar lá' at the officer?

Nope, just giving his name and address, all polite like, did'nt even throw a petrol bomb or nuttin.

senordingdong

Ah right, by the looks of the text in the article, the copper took it as not co-operating and not co-operating in this manner falls under the justice and security act.

homeless student

im sure he knew how to speak English and if that is the case, I presume he was being an immature trouble maker. no sympathy for him.

Banjo String

We were taught from knee high, that it was compulsory to give your name to the RUC when required to do so (by law)

However you were not required by law to spell your name. So, we always gave our names in Irish. If the officer couldn't spell your Irish name, tough.

Maybe we were taught BS, I dunno. Never had a bother afterwards though.

homeless student

homeless student wrote: »

im sure he knew how to speak English and if that is the case, I presume he was being an immature trouble maker. no sympathy for him.

Same here. Didn't read the article so don't know the outcome but hope he was fined for wasting Police time.

Red Crow

senordingdong wrote: »

Was he by any chance shouting 'tiocfaidg ar lá' at the officer?

No, that would have been mentioned by now wouldn't you think? :rolleyes:

*awaits typical anti-Sinn Fein response*

anncoates

Gaelgoirs Are Exceptionally Lunatic

when

Minuscule Irish Slights Emerge

Karl Stein

'I can't understand what you're saying so I'm arresting you under anti-terrorism laws'

What in the name of muppetry is wrong with these people?

*Awaits the 'just-do-as-you're-told' brigade*

orangesoda

maybe he wasn't using the native Ulster Gaelic dialect

GaelMise

Its quite easy to laugh this case off, even the Judge seems to be a little bit bemused that he was actually arrested and brought to court over this.

The problem with this, and a similer case down here a while back is that for someone like me who speaks Irish and makes the choice to use Irish when conducting their business, you have in the back of your mind every time you see a policeman, if they stop me and I speak Irish to them, there is a posibility that they will arrest me for it.
The result of this awareness of the possibility of spurious arrest is of course to discourage the use of Irish when conducting your business. Every time I come into contact with a police officer I have to accept that my language choice may result in my arrest, this is an unfortunate state of affairs and I can only hope that this case is thrown out and a strong precident set that this kind of thing won't be tolerated by the courts.

GaelMise

anncoates wrote: »

Gaelgoirs Are Exceptionally Lunatic

when

Minuscule Irish Slights Emerge

Miniscule slight? The man was arrested and brought to court for speaking Irish, how th hell is that miniscule?

The Backwards Man

I refuse to read any more of this thread until it is conducted in Irish.

moxin

Hell, I hardly speak a word of Irish due to our defunct educational system but as an English speaking Irishman I fully support Irish speaking people who want respect for their rights north or south of the border.

GaelMise

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I refuse to read any more of this thread until it is conducted in Irish.

I would be happy to oblige, unfortunatly I would be banned for doing so.

Karl Stein

GaelMise wrote: »

Miniscule slight? The man was arrested and brought to court for speaking Irish, how th hell is that miniscule?

Indeed. If it were a Polish person or a Rwandan being arrested there'd be uproar but because it's an Irish person using Irish the usual goons will suspend their outrage.

Mint Sauce

GaelMise wrote: »

Its quite easy to laugh this case off, even the Judge seems to be a little bit bemused that he was actually arrested and brought to court over this.

The problem with this, and a similer case down here a while back is that for someone like me who speaks Irish and makes the choice to use Irish when conducting their business, you have in the back of your mind every time you see a policeman, if they stop me and I speak Irish to them, there is a posibility that they will arrest me for it.
The result of this awareness of the possibility of spurious arrest is of course to discourage the use of Irish when conducting your business. Every time I come into contact with a police officer I have to accept that my language choice may result in my arrest, this is an unfortunate state of affairs and I can only hope that this case is thrown out and a strong precident set that this kind of thing won't be tolerated by the courts.

Are you referring to your use in NI or ROI. If refering to ROI are you not entittled to under the law to use comuicate with the police/guards in Irish anyway.

Not sure if this applies to NI or due to any part of the Good Friday Agreement or any other NI treaties.

The Backwards Man

GaelMise wrote: »

I would be happy to oblige, unfortunatly I would be banned for doing so.

Not good enough, I demand my day in court.

anncoates

GaelMise wrote: »

Miniscule slight? The man was arrested and brought to court for speaking Irish, how th hell is that miniscule?

Fair point.

Just one thing though. Could the cop speak Irish?

poundapunnet

GaelMise wrote: »

Miniscule slight? The man was arrested and brought to court for speaking Irish, how th hell is that miniscule?

Dermot Douglas (49), of Mellows Park in Dublin, was charged with not giving his details to the best of his ability under the Justice and Security Act on March 6.

The defence solicitor said while being held at Strand Road PSNI station he was offered a caution but refused to accept it "on principle"

You're over-stating this ever so slightly.

Banjo String

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Are you referring to your use in NI or ROI. If refering to ROI are you not entittled to under the law to use comuicate with the police/guards in Irish anyway.

Not sure if this applies to NI or due to any part of the Good Friday Agreement or any other NI treaties.

Wasn't there a case recently were Gardai were issued with some Irish cards (to oblige Irish speaker's)?

osarusan

Karl Stein wrote: »

Indeed. If it were a Polish person or a Rwandan being arrested there'd be uproar but because it's an Irish person using Irish the usual goons will suspend their outrage.

if the Pole or Rwandan could speak perfect English but chose to speak in their native language instead, I don't think there would be any uproar.

GaelMise

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Are you referring to your use in NI or ROI. If refering to ROI are you not entittled to under the law to use comuicate with the police/guards in Irish anyway.

Not sure if this applies to NI or due to any part of the Good Friday Agreement or any other NI treaties.

Both, there was a case about a year ago of a man being arrested in Dublin because he spoke Irish with Gardaí, did'nt make it to court mind you, they figured out that what they were doing was in blatent breach of the constitution before that it seems.
In the north there is no protection for Irish speakers, and as it happens Irish is the only language banned in courts there (going all the way back to one of the penal laws that they still have on the books up there no less.)

homeless student

Karl Stein wrote: »

Indeed. If it were a Polish person or a Rwandan being arrested there'd be uproar but because it's an Irish person using Irish the usual goons will suspend their outrage.

yes because most people would assume that this guy knew how to speak english but refused to, why do that? especially when the chances are the police officer wont know what your saying? it was really stupid and childish of the guy in question.

shopaholic01

GaelMise wrote: »

Both, there was a case about a year ago of a man being arrested in Dublin because he spoke Irish with Gardaí, did'nt make it to court mind you, they figured out that what they were doing was in blatent breach of the constitution before then it seems.
In the north there is no protection for Irish speakers, and as it happens Irish is the only language banned in courts there (going all the way back to one of the penal laws that they still have on the books up there no less.)

Well that explains it then. Could he speak English?

Witcher

Banjo String wrote: »

Wasn't there a case recently were Gardai were issued with some Irish cards (to oblige Irish speaker's)?

Bit useless if your Irish isn't good enough to understand the answer you're given.

If this person were a French, Russian, Chinese or any other nationality and they spoke no English, they wouldn't have a clue what the policeman was saying and babble on about anything. If they knew some English, they would attempt to converse.

But this fella knew what they were saying and deliberately spoke Irish probably knowing the policemen wouldn't understand.

Being ignorant just for the sake of it if you ask me.

Banjo String

Blay wrote: »

Bit useless if your Irish isn't good enough to understand the answer you're given.

Which in itself is farcical.

GaelMise

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Well that explains it then. Could he speak English?

Does'nt matter, Norn Iron is still Ireland after all, Irish is as much native to there as it is to here. Does'nt have the same protections of course, but even there the state has obligations under the European charter on Regional or Minority languages.

If arresting people for speaking Irish is acceptible up there, we could see a lot of people arrested up there in a few days time, there will be a large protest in Belfast against the rather shoddy way the Irish Language community up there is being treated on the 12th of April.

Fr. Ned

Deleted User wrote: »

Same here. Didn't read the article so don't know the outcome but hope he was fined for wasting Police time.

He could well have a case against the PSNI for false arrest.

The Backwards Man

homeless student wrote: »

yes because most people would assume that this guy knew how to speak english but refused to, why do that? especially when the chances are the police officer wont know what your saying? it was really stupid and childish of the guy in question.

It's just a pity it wasn't an Irish speaking PSNI officer, called his bluff. There's at least a dozen or more in the Northwest.

shopaholic01

GaelMise wrote: »

Does'nt matter, Norn Iron is still Ireland after all, Irish is as much native to there as it is to here. Does'nt have the same protections of course, but even there the state has obligations under the European charter on Regional or Minority languages.

This

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

If this person were a French, Russian, Chinese or any other nationality and they spoke no English, they wouldn't have a clue what the policeman was saying and babble on about anything. If they knew some English, they would attempt to converse.

But this fella knew what they were saying and deliberately spoke Irish probably knowing the policemen wouldn't understand.

Being ignorant just for the sake of it if you ask me.

I know you're passionate about the Irish language, but this really is a non-issue.

Karl Stein

homeless student wrote: »

it was really stupid and childish of the guy in question.

So you think people who are 'stupid and childish' should be handcuffed and locked in a cell?

Lol.

GaelMise

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It's just a pity it wasn't an Irish speaking PSNI officer, called his bluff. There's at least a dozen or more in the Northwest.

What makes you think he was bluffing? In my experiance very few people choose to take on a court case on principle rather than accept a caution if all they are doing is bluffing for some reason.

osarusan

Karl Stein wrote: »

So you think people who are 'stupid and childish' should be handcuffed and locked in a cell?

Lol.

the strawman master strikes again.

anncoates

homeless student wrote: »

yes because most people would assume that this guy knew how to speak english but refused to, why do that? especially when the chances are the police officer wont know what your saying? it was really stupid and childish of the guy in question.

Exactly.

If it's a genuine case of bigotry - entirely probable in the North - then fine but without knowing the full facts, you'd wonder if it's a lunatic deliberately obfuscating the cop by refusing to speak to them in a language that they both understand knowing full well that when it ends up in the courts that the usual moron Northern Politik will mean than it becomes a political hot potato.

Kinda like this thread where you can already see the depressing team-thanking agenda-pushing going on.

Karl Stein

Defunct language wrote: »

You're one of the biggest PC hand-wringers on this site.

Hi there soon to be banned re-reg. I'm flattered that you took the time to re-register just so you could get my attention.

You poor sod. Get help.

The Backwards Man

GaelMise wrote: »

What makes you think he was bluffing? In my experiance very few people choose to take on a court case on principle rather than accept a caution if all they are doing is bluffing for some reason.

Pull the other one. You and I both know it was a stunt, the PSNI know it was a stunt and Barney Mac knows it was a stunt. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of arresting him under counter terrorism laws, we all know it was a stunt and he got exactly the reaction he wanted.

131spanner

I'm a big fan of the Irish language, but I'd find it hard to sympathize with your man. If he had basic English (which I assume he did), he should have used it given the situation.

Karl Stein

anncoates wrote: »

Kinda like this thread where you can already see the depressing team-thanking agenda-pushing going on.

And your first painful attempt at garnering support for your team didn't have an agenda?

Dear dear deary me.

GaelMise

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Pull the other one. You and I both know it was a stunt, the PSNI know it was a stunt and Barney Mac knows it was a stunt. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of arresting him under counter terrorism laws, we all know it was a stunt and he got exactly the reaction he wanted.

Sorry, but I don't know that it was a stunt. If the PSNI 'know it was a stunt' why the hell did they arrest him? I'm not sure why you think he wanted to be arrested and brought to court but now that it has heppened I can only hope that the Judge makes sure it does not happen again.

GaelMise

131spanner wrote: »

I'm a big fan of the Irish language, but I'd find it hard to sympathize with your man. If he had basic English (which I assume he did), he should have used it given the situation.

The question is, why should he have to speak English? At a broader level, why should the state be able to tell you that you cannot speak your own language in your own country?
I honestly can see no justification at all for arresting someone for choosing to speak Irish in Ireland, north or south.

jhegarty

131spanner wrote: »

I'm a big fan of the Irish language, but I'd find it hard to sympathize with your man. If he had basic English (which I assume he did), he should have used it given the situation.

He just gave his name in Irish. He didn't pretend to not speak English.

Would you expect a French person to translate his name ?

anncoates

Karl Stein wrote: »

And your first painful attempt at garnering support for your team didn't have an agenda?

Dear dear deary me.

The OP deserved nothing but levity given his track record.

Not to worry though - your Provo buddies will be along to thank your post shortly.

The Backwards Man

GaelMise wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't know that it was a stunt. If the PSNI 'know it was a stunt' why the hell did they arrest him? I'm not sure why you think he wanted to be arrested and brought to court but now that it has heppened I can only hope that the Judge makes sure it does not happen again.

They arrested him for not giving his details to the best of his ability. He refused to accept a caution for taking the piss (he was taking the piss by the way) and got his day in court. Case closed.

GaelMise

GaelMise wrote: »

The result of this awareness of the possibility of spurious arrest is of course to discourage the use of Irish when conducting your business.

It's a good-as-dead language that serves only to get in the way in the everyday practical world. The Police and Gardaí, both sides of the border, have better things to be doing than entertaining morons who refuse to display a bit of cop on.

If you try to wind up the Police you deserve a good haulin' off and hopefully have an ASBO or something issued against you (as useless as they are).

I wonder, if his son/brother/etc collapsed in the street and the ambulance came roaring up beside him, would he explain to the paramedics what happened in Irish? or is it only good enough when he's trying to wind someone else up?

Fr. Ned wrote: »

He could well have a case against the PSNI for false arrest.

False arrest for what? He didn't provide info to the Police in a practical or usable manner. What if he were a rapist or such on the loose, and the cop just let him wander off because he didn't want to have to deal with him. Would there be uproar then? Or would we all still be on his side because it's his 'right'?

Baton across the back of the head would do the man no harm.

131spanner

GaelMise wrote: »

The question is, why should he have to speak English? At a broader level, why should the state be able to tell you that you cannot speak your own language in your own country?
I honestly can see no justification at all for arresting someone for choosing to speak Irish in Ireland, north or south.

Londonderry is in the North, so really it's not our own country. I agree that arresting him was a bit much, especially when you see the words anti-terrorism, but he could have made a better effort to comply with what was going on and chances are he wouldn't have been arrested if he had.

jhegarty wrote: »

He just gave his name in Irish. He didn't pretend to not speak English.

Would you expect a French person to translate his name ?

You can't compare a French persons relationship with the English language to an Irish persons. Not by a mile.

Karl Stein

anncoates wrote: »

Not to worry though - your Provo buddies will be along to thank your post shortly.

What do you mean by this?

osarusan

He was not 'arrested for speaking Irish', no more than somebody who chose not to speak perfect English but spoke Polish instead would be 'arrested for speaking Polish', or somebody who refused to speak and give any personal information would be 'arrested for being mute'.

He was arrested for not giving his details to the best of his ability*. He was arrested for what he did not do, not what he did.

*at least not in a language the officer could understand.

poundapunnet

GaelMise wrote: »

The question is, why should he have to speak English? At a broader level, why should the state be able to tell you that you cannot speak your own language in your own country?
I honestly can see no justification at all for arresting someone for choosing to speak Irish in Ireland, north or south.

He was in northern Ireland, which is a part of the United Kingdom, and where in the most recent census the portion of the population who self-identified as either British or Northern Irish outnumbered those who identified as Irish by more than 2 to 1. The official language of the United Kingdom is English, and seeing as the man's given address was in Dublin, I would think it's safe to assume that he spoke some bit of English.