Mandatory Health Insurance: Who benefits?

anynews14

I was wondering who would benefit from Mandatory Health Insurance.
Is it Private Hospitals/Private Clinics as it would guarantee them income as then everyone would have health insurance? Currently only half the population have health insurance (at most) so this would increase the numbers of customers that private hospitals could get.

Its probably not to benefit the taxpayer as this is another tax to pay.

Its probably not to benefit the HSE/Exchequer as they could just create a tax and give the money to the HSE. Why mandatory health insurance?

Its probably not to benefit nurses/doctors/heath care workers.

Its probably not to benefit Private Health Insurance Companies as this is a State Health Insurance tax, not private Health Insurance.

Its not to get everyone paying as the unemployed/low income retired wouldn't have the income to pay, like they don't now.

The government, presumably?

Don't they take a % of it?

anynews14

But why Mandatory Health Insurance: to gain revenue the government could introduce many different taxes. So, why do they want this tax?

The Narrator

The health insurance companies benefit, as it is forcing everyone to have "public" health insurance with a private company.

anynews14

Health Insurance companies probably wouldn't benefit as this is a government tax - like income tax. Its Mandatory State Insurance not Company Insurance.

My name is URL

Everyone would be a winner if it were to function as intended.. but it won't, obviously.

Renegade Mechanic

So everyone has to pay for it then. Great. Cant wait to see their price plans for the "Captive audience."

anynews14

I'ts not about everyone paying for it.
How could those with no income (e.g. unemployed/low income retired) be paying Mandatory Insurance/
Like the current situation those who would be paying would be those with income/jobs?

worded

It's good news for those in the welfare wonderland that is Ireland

Ok everyone back to work ....

To be honest, my guess is that this will be the 'everyone on the streets' tax. They seem to be thinking in the hundreds of Euro per year, which people just don't seem to have. Look at the property tax uproar. Public/Private Health Insurance will be the straw to break the camel's back in my honest personal opinion.


In reality, it's to keep the HSE afloat, I would imagine.


Unrelatedly, is it fair for the govt. to prop up private institutions? I mean, if I open a health insurance company tomorrow, I pretty much have the governments backing on it and a guaranteed customer base? Seems a little unfair. I know the same could be said about car insurance, but cars are optional purchases.

WilyCoyote

Why not do something along the lines of ACA ........ otherwise known as OBAMACARE. Scroll down to the easy-to-follow, 6 minute video:

http://obamacarefacts.com/obamahealthcare-summary.php

djerk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2scvIFGjE

sounds quite like the whirpool this country is in.. the illusion of choice!

WilyCoyote

Ah Jasus djerk! Please, I mean, please.
Most Americans don't analyse things as much as people in Ireland. They are also more exposed to Republican hype over things ........ and they watch too many shows like John Steward ....... which they think are reporting facts. They are not as stupid as they are made to look. But only by a small margin. Some of the newspapers here are no better than The Inquirer or Globe. And some of the News Channels like FOX are puke inducing. But that is America.

Hype, Bluster, Horseshit and just run-of-the-mill BS.

djerk

That IS America! i don't understand why you believe this place is any better.. sure we've been hangin around in Americas front pocket for a while now.. were just a corporate extension of the fact. Enda Kenny on the cover of TIME magazine? for what my own mother would pay taxes out of fear of the state that she grew up in as im sure many others would without knowing or realising that they have rights.. all they know is that they have to work regardless, to give their children a life, even if it means not having one themselves.

Where's the hype, Kenny promised free health care for all before he came in, now it's universal healthcare? which has been shown to end up costing everyone twice as much wherever it has been tried before. Do you really think after everything that's happend re ghost taxation etc that they're actually trying to help you or me?

our government is corrupt from its top to its bottom, we allowed this to happen. so shame on us if anything else.. but whos standing up to fight and change things for the better? ah sure.. "theyre just blockin the roads and probably unemployed cause theyve nothin better to be doin"

WilyCoyote

You need a young female firebrand like the young Bernadette Devlin to weld together the young protesters. I think the males are too laid back.

djerk

i had to google to find out who she even was..

most seem to think the young, the bright, the talented are leaving this country because there are no jobs, actually, it might just be because they're sick and tired of living in an environment where all people seem to do is talk and not do anything..

Oryx

They want us to pay more for the system we have now? No thanks. They are spinning the line that everyone will have instant access to some golden healthcare facility as and when they need it. It'll never happen. We will get screwed and still face the same waiting lists, trolley beds and cancellations as we do now. Too many people, too few services.

And they are saying 40% of the population will get it free. So if you want this, make sure you are poor!

mickydoomsux

djerk wrote: »

i had to google to find out who she even was..

most seem to think the young, the bright, the talented are leaving this country because there are no jobs, actually, it might just be because they're sick and tired of living in an environment where all people seem to do is talk and not do anything..

Nah, the real reason young people are leaving the country is because that's what they do. Been that way for decade upon decade.

We used to call it "going travelling" during the boom and parents all around the nation encouraged their twenty-something offspring to go do it but now it's called "being forced to emigrate" and is akin to a death sentence.

sillyoulfool

anynews14 wrote: »

Health Insurance companies probably wouldn't benefit as this is a government tax - like income tax. Its Mandatory State Insurance not Company Insurance.

Course they would, mandatory that you have it and only they can sell it, nice little cartel operating solely for its own benefit.
Another piece of crooked stroke politics by "Dicey" Reilly, a man who makes Bertie Ahern look honest!

CarrickMcJoe

It's win win for the Government, as now they get a bigger slice of the PRSI. (the other health and social insurance) .

comongethappy

The costs will be eye-watering.

Modelled on the Netherlands where its €1,400 per year..

jester77

comongethappy wrote: »

The costs will be eye-watering.

Modelled on the Netherlands where its €1,400 per year..

I presume it will be a percentage of your salary and not a fixed amount. In Germany it is 15.5% of your salary. Everyone pays which is fair, even those on very small wages. If someone is unemployed then they are means tested and if their partner is earning over a certain amount the partner pays for the contribution, otherwise social welfare pays for it.

mickydoomsux

What happens if I don't want health insurance?

I haven't been to a doctor in twenty years and have never been in hospital. I'd prefer to just pay for what I use if I need to.

mickdw

jester77 wrote: »

I presume it will be a percentage of your salary and not a fixed amount. In Germany it is 15.5% of your salary. Everyone pays which is fair, even those on very small wages. If someone is unemployed then they are means tested and if their partner is earning over a certain amount the partner pays for the contribution, otherwise social welfare pays for it.

15 percent of salary to get you cover same as the guy on the dole next door! are you mad?
Surely seeing as everyone will have cover, the service will be only of a level as currently received by public patients? 15 percent of salary for that would be the biggest scandal to hit the country so far.

comongethappy

mickydoomsux wrote: »

What happens if I don't want health insurance?

I haven't been to a doctor in twenty years and have never been in hospital. I'd prefer to just pay for what I use if I need to.

Tough.

In much of Europe & now the US you will have to pay.

Time will tell if "Reillycare" will happen.
Time will tell.

comongethappy

mickdw wrote: »

15 percent of salary to get you cover same as the guy on the dole next door! are you mad?
Surely seeing as everyone will have cover, the service will be only of a level as currently received by public patients? 15 percent of salary for that would be the biggest scandal to hit the country so far.

Indeed it would be a scandal.

Below is borrowed from the politics forum:

Holland - €1,700 (with an estimated extra figure of up to €1900 if you get sick)
Switzerland - €3400 (with excesses of up to €2700)
Germany - For a worker on €25K = €1825
Germany - for a worker on €47K = €4,400
France - for a worker on €25K = €1240 (for 70% coverage)
France - For a worker on €47K = €4000 (for 70% coverage)

Scary.

imitation

Healthcare costs are eyewatering for many things, many drugs can cost hundreds of Euros a day, likewise with a stay in hospital. When you hear of people in the us with no health insurance having to pay 50k for a broken collarbone, you can be sure its the same here or more but the government pick up the tab. Its no wonder they are trying to find more finance. I did think it was funny the furor over the 1 EUR prescription thing, given the medicines could be costing hundreds, it just feels like people don't get the real cost.

comongethappy

imitation wrote: »

Healthcare costs are eyewatering for many things, many drugs can cost hundreds of Euros a day, likewise with a stay in hospital. When you hear of people in the us with no health insurance having to pay 50k for a broken collarbone, you can be sure its the same here or more but the government pick up the tab. Its no wonder they are trying to find more finance. I did think it was funny the furor over the 1 EUR prescription thing, given the medicines could be costing hundreds, it just feels like people don't get the real cost.

Decades of governments paying everything have left a large portion of society completely detached from the reality of costs.

Glinda

My worry is that this is just a cover for introducing a very hefty charge for people on very modest incomes to access the facilities that are currently available to them for free under the public system.

So, in my (hopefully paranoid) scenario, ordinary Joe Soap will end up paying €1,600 per year to access the public system (ok it'll be called something else but the facilities will be the same at best) and will still have to cover the family with a 'top-up' private product to access any reasonable level of care.

Those on medical cards and those who can afford expensive top-up policies will be fine. Those in the middle who are currently struggling to pay for their bog standard Plan B level insurance policy will still need it, and will have to pay this new charge on top. If they can't, well too bad, they will just drop back to a 'public' level of cover, except, wait, there is no free public cover any more and they'll have to pay.

Travesty.

(I hope I'm wrong )

Daith

comongethappy wrote: »

Decades of governments paying everything have left a large portion of society completely detached from the reality of costs.

Hardly paying everything? How many people pay extra for private health insurance? In fact if the people on medial cards will be getting this for "free" the the government will still be paying for everything for them.

comongethappy

Daith wrote: »

Hardly paying everything? How many people pay extra for private health insurance? In fact if the people on medial cards will be getting this for "free" the the government will still be paying for everything for them.

That who I meant.

Around 40% of the population have a medical card.

Daith

comongethappy wrote: »

That who I meant.

Around 40% of the population have a medical card.

And this probably won't change for this insurance.

conorhal

Who'll benefit?

Well for starters, the political friends of Labor and FG that will stuff the SEVEN quango's to be set up to administer the scheme (who is doing that now?)

Then of course there's the health insurers, who will become the managers of the health service, they will see a healthy bump in subscriptions and will have to boost staff to manage the scheme.

The HSE will benefit as it will no longer have to justify why certain things are no longer covered, and since the administraton will now be done by quango's and the insurance companies, their administrators will benefit by having loads of time to finish the Irish Times crossword as they'll have no work to do (anybody that imagines there will be mass administrative redundancies is kidding themselves.

The government will benefit by closing a funding gap with a new tax, which is easier then reforming 'Angola' into a functional health service.

The only real looser is the taxpayer, that's getting a system based on the Dutch model, that the Ducth are currently trying to dismantle. What is it about this state that even with the hindsight of others we insist on repeating their mistakes? For example you have Quinn doing to education what the British did in the 80's and are now desperately trying to fix.
Can you imagine what percentage of the revenue that will be raised by this tax that will end up being spent on the administration of quango's, health boards, insurance companies and the HSE?
Feck it. I'd guess that it will be so large as to make no actual difference to the availability of front line services. If they were just honest and said, we're raising tax by X% to fill the funding gap and we'll do what we can to strip out costs from the management layer and redirect the resources to the front line, then you would see a positive (if expensive result).
This plan will only offer us the worst of both worlds, an increecingly expensive and failing health service with yet another layer of management to pay for so the powers that be can avoid reform and addressing the basic problems like doctor retention, insfficient consultant postings and basic tasks that would be best performed by a nurse that currently aren't, like putting a couple of stitches in a small cut.

sillyoulfool

jester77 wrote: »

I presume it will be a percentage of your salary and not a fixed amount. In Germany it is 15.5% of your salary. Everyone pays which is fair, even those on very small wages. If someone is unemployed then they are means tested and if their partner is earning over a certain amount the partner pays for the contribution, otherwise social welfare pays for it.

White paper indicates it will be a fixed cost not a percentage of salary.

sillyoulfool

mickydoomsux wrote: »

What happens if I don't want health insurance?

I haven't been to a doctor in twenty years and have never been in hospital. I'd prefer to just pay for what I use if I need to.

You will be forced to have it.

vellakare

In the 1960's to the 1980's, we had a well equipped health service. There was a role played by the church in a lot of cases, and the state could not afford to fill this void.

Unfortunately, there seem to be too many abuses and leakages. There are too many to list. The former Taoiseach, Brian Cowen was reputed to have groaned "Angola" when he was allocated the Health Ministry in 2004.

In my lifetime, I have never seen a popular Health Minister. There are simply too many lobbyists, interest groups and pharmaceutical companies off to screw the state and the customer.

Ireland has done a deal with the devil in the pharmaceutical sector. While it is a key export area of the Irish economy, its existence here prevents the provision of cheaper medication.

Its also that it does cost a considerable amount of money to get a medical degree in the first place, easily in the region of 1/4 Million Euro. That has to be recouped by the student on graduation.

There are simply too many factors to list. I fear that it will be another poll tax under another name, and the problems that exist now will still exist, though we will pay more for it. There won't be any guarantees beyond over inflation increases placing the customer in debt whether they like it or not.

A new Singapore is being born. We will keep you alive, we will keep you in debt, we will keep you working until the day you die.

Caliden

They're looking to the Netherlands to see how that got on and one statistic that made my jaw drop to the floor was that health spending has doubled over the last 10 years
If everyone has universal health care, it's almost guaranteed that everyone will use it as much as possible.

Our health system is already in a state, how will it cope with a two fold increase?

In the dutch system there's also an 'opt-out' for individuals for religious reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Netherlands#Opting_out

Other info taken from here:
http://www.thejournal.ie/gps-say-they-were-not-adequately-consulted-universal-health-insurance-paper-1394547-Apr2014/

Dravokivich

I'd be more inclined to look at who it affects. I can't afford health insurance, as I'm sure is the same with many others who don't have it. What makes them think we will end up doing if they force us to pay for it?

conorhal

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'd be more inclined to look at who it affects. I can't afford health insurance, as I'm sure is the same with many others who don't have it. What makes them think we will end up doing if they force us to pay for it?

Like the property tax, there will be ways and means, probably taking it out of your bank account or at source if you're a PAYE worker.

Dravokivich

conorhal wrote: »

Like the property tax, there will be ways and means, probably taking it out of your bank account or at source if you're a PAYE worker.

I'm talking about the remainder after these taxes/charges. I can't afford something now, I'm not going to magically be able to if they decide to take it from me. Means I have to cut down on other stuff. (which aren't luxuries btw)

Setun

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

So everyone has to pay for it then. Great. Cant wait to see their price plans for the "Captive audience."

I remember a few years back there was talk of HSE taking trips to the Netherlands to see how their whole system works. Basically in NL you're legally obliged to secure health insurance from a private company, on average I'd say at a cost of 90-100 per month per person. The idea is that a free-market approach to healthcare (as opposed to a more "socialist" model such as the NHS) creates 'competition' between multiple health insurers, naturally leading to efficiency, reduced bureaucracy, and better prices for the consumer. What happens in reality is that, in the absence of an independent regulator with the correct degree of oversight, the various companies form something like a cartel and in the end offer very little variation, while compartmentalising people with long term illnesses/disabilities into "target markets". Judging by the behaviour of "independent" regulators in Ireland over the years, this might be something to watch out for if this kind of system does indeed get implemented :rolleyes:

For those in NL paying their 90-odd quid monthly, there are various fallbacks/allowances for those earning below a certain amount, but as usual you'll find it's the 'squeezed middle' who pay over the odds with little/no help from the government. Having said that, healthcare is excellent in the Netherlands - and importantly, available very quickly, and according to a quick search just now appears to be rated the best in Europe in various polls!

anynews14

Aren't private hospitals going to make loads of money out of this as then everyone would have health insurance? Private hospitals must love this idea. Who is driving this idea?

KyussBishop

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Nah, the real reason young people are leaving the country is because that's what they do. Been that way for decade upon decade.

Except that's wrong, because Irish people (red line in the graph) are leaving in increasing numbers, ever since the economic crisis:
http://factsaresacred.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/emigration-Ireland-1987-2011.jpg

We also have the highest net-emigration levels in Europe (though no doubt, a large part of this is down to the high immigration pre-crisis):
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ireland-has-highest-net-emigration-level-in-europe-1.1601685


You're conflating people going off on a year or two's work abroad after college, and then coming back, with permanent emigration - people are leaving permanently, not just going off to for a couple of years - and this tends to coincide with economic crisis.

Setun

anynews14 wrote: »

Aren't private hospitals going to make loads of money out of this as then everyone would have health insurance? Private hospitals must love this idea. Who is driving this idea?

In the Netherlands the vast majority (all?) of hospitals are privately run, but run not-for-profit. Basically it's all well and good to take the dutch system, but without a regulator with an obsessive compulsion to actually regulate it'll be another semi-functional and incredibly expensive experiment.

How on earth can they call something govt mandated "free market"? It's the opposite. It'll increase costs for everyone for poor service. There will be no incentive for efficiency and we'll have special groups and quangos everywhere

Setun

bluewolf wrote: »

How on earth can they call something govt mandated "free market"? It's the opposite. It'll increase costs for everyone for poor service. There will be no incentive for efficiency and we'll have special groups and quangos everywhere

The incentive for efficiency comes from the for-profit insurance companies actually wanting to turn a profit - there is in fact a reduced incentive for efficiency in a state-run system.

Caliden

Setun wrote: »

The incentive for efficiency comes from the for-profit insurance companies actually wanting to turn a profit - there is in fact a reduced incentive for efficiency in a state-run system.

Increasing premiums is easier to do than reforming a health care system, which do you think insurance companies will do?

Dravokivich

Caliden wrote: »

Increasing premiums is easier to do than reforming a health care system, which do you think insurance companies will do?

If you were to look at the company as a business independent of the service they sell, it's in their favour to limit outgoings. If too much money is leaking somewhere, they'll look for a way to sort it.

COYW

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

So everyone has to pay for it then.

No, not everyone. Tax payers pay for it. The usual suspect don't, just like every other charge that has been introduced recently but they get the benefits of UHC as part of their "entitlements".

Caliden wrote: »

Increasing premiums is easier to do than reforming a health care system, which do you think insurance companies will do?

How are the insurance companies supposed to reform the system? That is the governments job surely.

anynews14

How will this affect nurses and healthcare professionals jobs? Surely, they would not get State pensions or the kind of security of the current setup? How come the Nurses Union has not asked any questions?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.