making a living out of sheep

derferjam

hi all is there anyone making a living on a sheep only farm? if so what sort of numbers do you have and you yane in door or out?

Nekarsulm

Define "living" !
No point asking a bunch of lads and lassie who clearly love hardship .

Conmaicne Mara

derferjam wrote: »

hi all is there anyone making a living on a sheep only farm? if so what sort of numbers do you have and you yane in door or out?

There's a hard question. It depends on what you deem a "living" to be, what system you intend high input for high output or low input for low output (I prefer low input for high output but not perfected it yet ), the land size and quality available, and what subsidies you can claim.

Teagasc had figures last June in Athenry at their sheep do, now those figures were based on returns farmers made to Teagasc so may not necessarily represent the best or worst of ALL sectors, that info is probably still up on their site if you were to look.

Lano Lynn

the secret to making a small fortune in farming is to start with a large one.

very much depends on what you call a living.
and it depends on how its set up if you have a life.:)

AnFeirmeoir

Suppose if I only ate lamb I could do it. What would you get through a lamb a fortnight per adult?

Birdnuts

What struck me about that Lambing live programme on the Beeb a few weeks ago, was that despite your mans very professional and well run set-up, he wouldn't be making any money at all without his interest in that farm shop:(

derferjam

What I meant by living was is there anyone making 25k+ from sheep

tomwaterford

derferjam wrote: »

What I meant by living was is there anyone making 25k+ from sheep

ICM Camolin??

all joking aside...at e50 a lamb profit which is at high side youd want 50K lambs:eek:

Username John

tomwaterford wrote: »

ICM Camolin??

all joking aside...at e50 a lamb profit which is at high side youd want 50K lambs:eek:

I'd say 500 lambs at 50quid profit would get you close enough to the 25k...

tomwaterford

Username John wrote: »

I'd say 500 lambs at 50quid profit would get you close enough to the 25k...

you are correct:D
god I need sleep with all this lambing:pac:

that being said how many ewes would you need to be selling 700 lambs and breeding your own replacements
allowing 10K a year for improvements like reseending,fenceing etc

Wooly Admirer

€50 profit per lamb will not happen. Top third of Teagasc profit monitor farmers making €20 profit per ewe. Stock at 10 per Ha = €200/Ha. With this performance you'll have your 25K with 125HA (1250 ewes).

No payments included here of course.

tomwaterford

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

€50 profit per lamb will not happen. Top third of Teagasc profit monitor farmers making €20 profit per ewe. Stock at 10 per Ha = €200/Ha. With this performance you'll have your 25K with 125HA (1250 ewes).

No payments included here of course.

long term you should be planning for less and less payments IMO

that is a depressing low figure (true an all as it is)...I do be trying to build to e50 a lamb...someday hopfully...if only I could get them to convert rushes to gold/oil

Conmaicne Mara

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

€50 profit per lamb will not happen. Top third of Teagasc profit monitor farmers making €20 profit per ewe. Stock at 10 per Ha = €200/Ha. With this performance you'll have your 25K with 125HA (1250 ewes).

No payments included here of course.

The problem there is those results, as you rightly pointed out, are only from farmers who completed a Teagasc Profit monitor. That may not necessarily reflect the true figures within the sheep sector, could be skewed massively one way or another depending on the make up of farms and systems within those results.

Wooly Admirer

The ones completing a profit monitor are the ones that are looking closely at their system and most likely to be making use of best management practices etc.

The farmers completing the profit monitor are better than your average sheep farmer, so the figures being recorded by the top third, are the very tops of the industry. IMO.

Conmaicne Mara

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

The ones completing a profit monitor are the ones that are looking closely at their system and most likely to be making use of best management practices etc.

The farmers completing the profit monitor are better than your average sheep farmer, so the figures being recorded by the top third, are the very tops of the industry. IMO.

They may be looking at their system, but to say they're the top third depends on their starting point. For example, completing a profit monitor is one of the measures of STAP, one I chose this year in addition to another two, just for the craic tbh.

Lano Lynn

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

€50 profit per lamb will not happen. Top third of Teagasc profit monitor farmers making €20 profit per ewe. Stock at 10 per Ha = €200/Ha. With this performance you'll have your 25K with 125HA (1250 ewes).

No payments included here of course.

when u consider aeos 1 pays e869/ha for bird cover !

Conmaicne Mara

Lano Lynn wrote: »

when u consider aeos 1 pays e869/ha for bird cover !

Great money if you can get it

Wooly Admirer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

They may be looking at their system, but to say they're the top third depends on their starting point. For example, completing a profit monitor is one of the measures of STAP, one I chose this year in addition to another two, just for the craic tbh.

The profit monitor figures I'm quoting are pre-STAP. Your right these figures will be swayed alot by STAP farmers getting involved. But pre-STAP it was the farmers really pushing things that bothered to go to the effort to complete this assessment of their business.

Username John

Jesus lads...

The last few comments on the last few threads have me half depressed...

- The best of farmers are only making €20 per ewe profit *
- Spring lamb price is rubbish
- The comment on the lambing thread of 'you have to get a lot right, and very little wrong to get a bad lambing %' is kinda ringing in me ears...

* Based on Profit Monitor, how much store you put in that is up to you, but I would say it would be done by very good lads, so is reliable enough.

Whilst the grá is still there for lambing, its weaning...

(Not exactly what you want to read maybe on a thread about making a living from sheep, but that's the way I see it right now)

Conmaicne Mara

I won't press the point farther than this. But I know of people making the skin of a ticks teeth difference in double of that €20 per ewe Teagasc profit monitor. People who know what they're making.

Green farmer

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I won't press the point farther than this. But I know of people making the skin of a ticks teeth difference in double of that €20 per ewe Teagasc profit monitor. People who know what they're making.

There is money in sheep. You need land free of rent and mortgage,you need to have all your farm machinery paid for, you need numbers, economy of scale and a slick fine tuned operation. unfortunately how many have all those ingredients in place ???

Also it's all the little costs that add up, running to coop every day for disposables that add up over a year.

tomwaterford

Green farmer wrote: »

There is money in sheep. You need land free of rent and mortgage,you need to have all your farm machinery paid for, you need numbers, economy of scale and a slick fine tuned operation. unfortunately how many have all those ingredients in place ???

Also it's all the little costs that add up, running to coop every day for disposables that add up over a year.

this is a killer like doing lambs for orf (was quoted e1.50 a lamb...over 100 lambs is e150...I can buy orf spray to treat all for e6)...even I would question a lot of the vaccines esp for ''closed'' lowland flocks that wouldn't be buying in sheep/be being put out to the hill mixing with other sheep

Conmaicne Mara

Green farmer wrote: »

There is money in sheep. You need land free of rent and mortgage,you need to have all your farm machinery paid for, you need numbers, economy of scale and a slick fine tuned operation. unfortunately how many have all those ingredients in place ???

Also it's all the little costs that add up, running to coop every day for disposables that add up over a year.

Rather than wondering how many don't have them, I wonder why they don't have them? Not that I am one to talk.

A quad is about the only piece of machinery I reckon a hill farm needs anyway. Too much money can be wasted in investing in wants, rather than needs. But that's operation specific.

Spend money on what will make you money.

razor8

tomwaterford wrote: »

this is a killer like doing lambs for orf (was quoted e1.50 a lamb...over 100 lambs is e150...I can buy orf spray to treat all for e6)...even I would question a lot of the vaccines esp for ''closed'' lowland flocks that wouldn't be buying in sheep/be being put out to the hill mixing with other sheep

A bottle of scabivax costs around €40 and should do anything from 80 to 100 lambs despite what label says. The €1.60 a lamb you were quoted is way off the mark

tomwaterford

razor8 wrote: »

A bottle of scabivax costs around €40 and should do anything from 80 to 100 lambs despite what label says. The €1.60 a lamb you were quoted is way off the mark

sheep are relatively rare down here...with few notable exceptions!!!

that is not too bad...though still roughly cost e80 vs e6 for bottle of spray with a few mins work??

razor8

tomwaterford wrote: »

sheep are relatively rare down here...with few notable exceptions!!!

that is not too bad...though still roughly cost e80 vs e6 for bottle of spray with a few mins work??

I would see it as €6 wasted to be honest tom. If orf gets a hold of your lambs no spray or tablets will have any effect IMO, some flocks get a mild attack like a few scabs around mouth etc that do no harm and if lambs thriving well they can fight off the attack. But if weather bad and it's gets a hold and goes from mouth to feet it's some mess

Green farmer

Is orf something that's in the ground or something that's imported from buying in sheep ?

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

Is orf something that's in the ground or something that's imported from buying in sheep ?

Both in my view.

paddysdream

Green farmer wrote: »

There is money in sheep. You need land free of rent and mortgage,you need to have all your farm machinery paid for, you need numbers, economy of scale and a slick fine tuned operation. unfortunately how many have all those ingredients in place ???

Also it's all the little costs that add up, running to coop every day for disposables that add up over a year.

Have all the above so where am I going wrong?

Ok, will admit that there is a few bob in the woolie's ,more than cattle anyways.

If I had the choice(family,mortgage etc say otherwise) it would be,in order of preference,Machinery work,tillage,cattle,sheep,holsteins,pigs but needs must etc

Hire work- no money/sick hours/lots of pressure
Tillage-land is suitable but not enough to make it work
Cattle-high investment/small return
Sheep-hateful bast...s but a few bob with no major investment/workload
Milk- starting from scratch costs too much/post 2015 crash
Pigs-ag. college cured me of any interest in those money losing smelly porcines

On a more serious note cannot understand why more people don't consider sheep when starting out;
Low investment
Breed your own replacements
low inputs
major workload only once a year
shearing/drafting/dosing etc all at weekends
mimimal housing required
very little machinery needed
cheap way to get the "feel" for working with stock ie disaster pulling a lamb or tubing one is quiet a bit less costly than losing a BB calf or cow
Will work on most types of land

Have I anyone convinced yet?
Flock for sale Texel x and Borris ewes.Ready to go.Rams included (Texel, Char. and Suffolk)plus lots of hoggets for next year.
No warranty,trade sale,Cash only, No tyre kickers or wool pullers need apply.Phone me now for this amazing offer which will not be repeated.Only while stocks last.

Cran

Green farmer wrote: »

Is orf something that's in the ground or something that's imported from buying in sheep ?

Everything I think, got it in Feb in January born lambs that were in an out house that hadn't been used in 20 years....ewes were all here few years with no real orf issues, cleared up quick though

tomwaterford

razor8 wrote: »

I would see it as €6 wasted to be honest tom. If orf gets a hold of your lambs no spray or tablets will have any effect IMO, some flocks get a mild attack like a few scabs around mouth etc that do no harm and if lambs thriving well they can fight off the attack. But if weather bad and it's gets a hold and goes from mouth to feet it's some mess

I try not too leave it get that bad:o
I do be footbathing nearly weekly lame or not...as I do be running sheep in and doing jobs to be done with them every sat as I try keep work to a min evenings of the week:)

it is a great spray....orficide is name I think....1 spray and usually clears them...its a very strong spray...I must check what is in it

I got bit on my hand last year was brown for week after:( cant be good for you....its some strong stuff...puts hair back/burns hair on face and usually clears any that gets on doug
have used it on neighbours lamb and it was bad enough and cleared it....*should point out im not involved with his company
last year was first year I seen it anywhere

Maphisto

tomwaterford wrote: »

I got bit on my hand last year was brown for week after:( cant be good for you....its some strong stuff...puts hair back/burns hair on face and usually clears any that gets on doug
have used it on neighbours lamb and it was bad enough and cleared it....*should point out im not involved with his company
last year was first year I seen it anywhere

Least you should be safe from orf

farmingmad10

Wooly Admirer wrote: »

€50 profit per lamb will not happen. Top third of Teagasc profit monitor farmers making €20 profit per ewe. Stock at 10 per Ha = €200/Ha. With this performance you'll have your 25K with 125HA (1250 ewes).

No payments included here of course.

Jeez that's quare bad profit. so if you had 500 ewes you would only make €10,000??
Shur that's not worth a damn. A huge waste having sheep on good soils. If you only made 2c/l profit milking british friesan cows well say at 6000 litres over 305 days at a cow per acre you'd still make more money out of your land. Compare that €200/ha (What the best sheep farms making) to what the best dairy farms make well then it really is a huge waste. Cattle done well would make more than that

Username John

farmingmad10 wrote: »

Jeez that's quare bad profit. so if you had 500 ewes you would only make €10,000??
Shur that's not worth a damn. A huge waste having sheep on good soils. If you only made 2c/l profit milking british friesan cows well say at 6000 litres over 305 days at a cow per acre you'd still make more money out of your land. Compare that €200/ha (What the best sheep farms making) to what the best dairy farms make well then it really is a huge waste. Cattle done well would make more than that

Ah - don't be saying that...

Sheep can do very well on good land, and they mix 'fairly ok' with an off farm - cows and off-farm job wouldn't mix very well I would have thought?

EDIT : Was thinking about this, and comparing sheep and cows isn't really a worthwhile comparison. Yes there is more money in cows, no doubt about it. But the setup / entry costs, and commitment for both are very different as well.

farmingmad10

Of course you would make more money with a job than sheep. But if you had a big block of good land sheep won't give much of a return. €20/ewe haha shur what good is that. If I had a job i still wouldn't keep them for that sort of money.

Username John

farmingmad10 wrote: »

Of course you would make more money with a job than sheep. But if you had a big block of good land sheep won't give much of a return. €20/ewe haha shur what good is that. If I had a job i still wouldn't keep them for that sort of money.

No - I meant sheep+off-farm job isn't a bad mix. Cows+off-farm job, whilst more profitable wouldn't be the best mix I imagine (from a life perspective)

In your view, what's the most profitable option for part-timers? (And don't say rent it to some big dairy lad)

I don't keep cattle, but from threads in the main area, it seems beef farming is almost loss making?

But you're right - you wont make your millions sheep farming on the side

farmingmad10

I don't think sheep would be great with a part time job. Imagine them breaking out & they need watching then the lambing would be hard with job on. Buying Aberdeen Angus calves & finish them at 21 months off grass with minimal inputs. Get premium with them keep about 3 cattle per ha. Those systems are profitable breeds that finish off grass with good premiums of upto 20c/kg available.

Username John

farmingmad10 wrote: »

I don't think sheep would be great with a part time job. Imagine them breaking out & they need watching then the lambing would be hard with job on. Buying Aberdeen Angus calves & finish them at 21 months off grass with minimal inputs. Get premium with them keep about 3 cattle per ha. Those systems are profitable breeds that finish off grass with good premiums of upto 20c/kg available.

Don't you need to keep a certain number to qualify for those bonus?
Also - I know you're looking at this from the figure of 20euro / ewe profit, but would that system leave much more?

Ah - I dunno why am asking really tho. I have no facilities for cattle, so would be a non runner for me.

Just interested to know is all...

rancher

Username John wrote: »

Don't you need to keep a certain number to qualify for those bonus?
Also - I know you're looking at this from the figure of 20euro / ewe profit, but would that system leave much more?

Ah - I dunno why am asking really tho. I have no facilities for cattle, so would be a non runner for me.

Just interested to know is all...

Just happen to have the Farmers Handbook 2014 here in the office, they have projected net profits before SFP here for 2014. They go through all the enterprises
100 acre calf to beef carrying 70 livestock units and beef price of €4.20/kg has a net profit of €8472.
100 acre midseason sheep flock carrying 400 ewes lambing 1.5 with a lamb price of €4.50/kg has a net profit of €15422.
Haven't studied the figures , stocking rate looks about the same for both, just noticed that the fixed costs on the sheep farm are the same as my own, sheep farm gets an extra €2000 das
Just to sicken you now a dairy farm with 150 cows employing one man, selling every thing except replacements is making €80,000 here

farmingmad10

rancher wrote: »

Just happen to have the Farmers Handbook 2014 here in the office, they have projected net profits before SFP here for 2014. They go through all the enterprises
100 acre calf to beef carrying 70 livestock units and beef price of €4.20/kg has a net profit of €8472.
100 acre midseason sheep flock carrying 400 ewes lambing 1.5 with a lamb price of €4.50/kg has a net profit of €15422.
Haven't studied the figures , stocking rate looks about the same for both, just noticed that the fixed costs on the sheep farm are the same as my own, sheep farm gets an extra €2000 das
Just to sicken you now a dairy farm with 150 cows employing one man, selling every thing except replacements is making €80,000 here

Don't believe them figures tbh. Teagasc e profit monitors done on sheep farms show the top 3rd of sheep farms have a net profit of €20 per ewe or €200/ha at a stocking rate of 10/ha

farmingmad10

Username John wrote: »

Don't you need to keep a certain number to qualify for those bonus?
Also - I know you're looking at this from the figure of 20euro / ewe profit, but would that system leave much more?

Ah - I dunno why am asking really tho. I have no facilities for cattle, so would be a non runner for me.

Just interested to know is all...

Well do keep the angus out of our holsteins & tbh done well with good grazing system you would comfortably make €200 profit/head

farmingmad10

rancher wrote: »

Just happen to have the Farmers Handbook 2014 here in the office, they have projected net profits before SFP here for 2014. They go through all the enterprises
100 acre calf to beef carrying 70 livestock units and beef price of €4.20/kg has a net profit of €8472.
100 acre midseason sheep flock carrying 400 ewes lambing 1.5 with a lamb price of €4.50/kg has a net profit of €15422.
Haven't studied the figures , stocking rate looks about the same for both, just noticed that the fixed costs on the sheep farm are the same as my own, sheep farm gets an extra €2000 das
Just to sicken you now a dairy farm with 150 cows employing one man, selling every thing except replacements is making €80,000 here

Also 150 dairy cows done well would earn over €100,000 or €1,800/ha profit

rancher

farmingmad10 wrote: »

Don't believe them figures tbh. Teagasc e profit monitors done on sheep farms show the top 3rd of sheep farms have a net profit of €20 per ewe or €200/ha at a stocking rate of 10/ha

I put up my gross margins here, showing €100/ewe in 2011(normal year) and €60 in 2012(the wettest year that came in a long long time and grass didn't grow till mid may as well) our fixed costs are approx. €30/ewe, so theres €30/ ewe and €70/ewe ......both over €20

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057143213

Sheep are as good as what is out there in drystock, they're clean, they're easy handled.
If you have a cross compliance problem with sheep, I'd say you deserve a penalty....very easy comply.
Don't know why you're so down on sheep

rancher

farmingmad10 wrote: »

Also 150 dairy cows done well would earn over €100,000 or €1,800/ha profit

Those three examples would be average performance, should be at least 90lu on the beef and 5-600 ewes on the sheep but who'd be bothered with income tax as it is. We paid a whopper of a tax bill on 2011 (for a sheep farmer) bought a hilux and tunnel since......it won't happen again

farmingmad10

Are them figures from your profit monitor?

rancher

farmingmad10 wrote: »

Are them figures from your profit monitor?

yes

farmingmad10

€70 profit would be v good. How many lambs per ewe did you get for that what price?

rancher

farmingmad10 wrote: »

€70 profit would be v good. How many lambs per ewe did you get for that what price?

A third of our ewes are ewe lambs, we'd usually lamb about 1.5 to the ewe. I have it all forgot, 2011 was a good year, 2012 was sh..e so just put them up as an average, There's loads of opportunities in my system to cut costs,eg could cut the meal bill by 10% just by buying bulk, making silage from overgrown paddocks.....its not an efficient system, but I won't be changing

farmingmad10

Still not convinced tbh. I think €20 is what the best are making

rancher

farmingmad10 wrote: »

Still not convinced tbh. I think €20 is what the best are making

Had a National Event here in 2012 and Darren Carthy (farmers journal) went through the 2011 one in detail, checked everything before he put it up on the display boards, so that one is right whatever about the 2012 one

AnFeirmeoir

. Enough depressing figures out there. If someone has a figure to say I'm not wasting my time that's good news and I'll take it.