"Government is prepared for railway closures"

Grandeeod

David Franks is here for the pension as he winds down towards retirement, just like Dick Fearn. Our man Dick talked the same crap. His assistant , Stephen Murphy ran back to England when it got hot in the kitchen. These guys are and will be powerless. How's the South African CME?

These so called appointments are mere camoflage to the many real issues destroying Irish Railways. We like to look big in a small world.

corktina

IE needs a Henry Forbes

Banjoxed

corktina wrote: »

IE needs a Henry Forbes

I like Henry Forbes. He manfully stood up to those trying to destroy the County Donegal Railway and called their bluff.

corktina

Banjoxed wrote: »

I like Henry Forbes. He manfully stood up to those trying to destroy the County Donegal Railway and called their bluff.

He did indeed, but leaving the Troubles to one side, he also was innovative and resourceful, running his railway as best he could for as long as he could on a shoestring.
His CDR served the people of Donegal well until succumbing to the inevitable in 1960, ironically probably partly due to Henry's thrifty ways in not renewing his infrastructure when he might reasonably have done so with the resources of two big companies behind him.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

He did indeed, but leaving the Troubles to one side, he also was innovative and resourceful, running his railway as best he could for as long as he could on a shoestring.
His CDR served the people of Donegal well until succumbing to the inevitable in 1960, ironically probably partly due to Henry's thrifty ways in not renewing his infrastructure when he might reasonably have done so with the resources of two big companies behind him.

The CDRJC survived until CIE got involved through their staking holding in the 28 county assets of the GNRB - I seem to remember. The Midas touch in reverse again.

If Forbes were alive today he would have a fit at the rampant waste that goes on, the vast layers of useless management, the locos and rolling stock bought that are unfit for purpose, the operation of trains to suit political whims, management, staff and unions rather than the public....:rolleyes:

corktina

Indeed he would. I accept we'd be on here moaning about Cravens and Park Royals instead of moaning about the Mk3 waste but I'd wager that Henry wouldn't have wasted €106 million on the WCR. His was the right side of that argument.

Incidentally I think you can go back to pre CIE days there as far as the CDR was concerned. The poor old magnificent GNR was pretty much on it's knees for some time , a victim of political non-interference you could say.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

Indeed he would. I accept we'd be on here moaning about Cravens and Park Royals instead of moaning about the Mk3 waste but I'd wager that Henry wouldn't have wasted €106 million on the WCR. His was the right side of that argument.

Incidentally I think you can go back to pre CIE days there as far as the CDR was concerned. The poor old magnificent GNR was pretty much on it's knees for some time , a victim of political non-interference you could say.

Perhaps, but you only have to look at other assets that CIE got hold of and dispatched with undue haste...the Hill of Howth tramway being another prime case. How many months did they keeping it going after the takeover? On checking it was a massive eight months - 1st October 1958 to 31st May 1959. Seventeen days from announcement of closure to actual closure, and dismantling commenced in June - in case somebody might have saved it.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

Perhaps, but you only have to look at other assets that CIE got hold of and dispatched with undue haste...the Hill of Howth tramway being another prime case. How many months did they keeping it going after the takeover? On checking it was a massive eight months - 1st October 1958 to 31st May 1959. Seventeen days from announcement of closure to actual closure, and dismantling commenced in June - in case somebody might have saved it.

Nice and scenic as the Hill of Howth line was, it never ever came close to covering it's costs. RC Flewitt's book on the line tells us that the GNR would have closed it down years ago (It was curtailed during the war.) but it eluded the lifting train as it went through it's own crises in the late 1940's, partially through it's charm and partially through the poor roads in Howth that prevented the GNR from replacing it with buses. Indeed, the many enthusiasts and curious locals taking one last trip on it bumped up it's income in it's last year, though not by enough to warrant it's retention.

And this was taking into account factors such as not ever replacing the rolling stock or the track in it's lifetime, closing it's generator plant, local parcel delivery, no signalling staff on the line, having no stations to man or maintain and having drivers who were not paid as drivers and more.

An aside of the saga was how, in 1959, when tenders were opened for private companies to make bid to run two bus routes in lieu of the tram. There were no takers, leaving CIE to run said services instead, routes 87 and 88. How times change

On Henry Forbes, while he ran a tight ship he was known to be a bigoted bully who thought nothing of threatening people, staff, thief, passenger and policeman alike with one of several shotguns which he carried and often issued to his staff. One wonders if this style of man management would survive today outside of Rwanda or the Ukraine?

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Nice and scenic as the Hill of Howth line was, it never ever came close to covering it's costs. RC Flewitt's book on the line tells us that the GNR would have closed it down years ago (It was curtailed during the war.) but it eluded the lifting train as it went through it's own crises in the late 1940's, partially through it's charm and partially through the poor roads in Howth that prevented the GNR from replacing it with buses. Indeed, the many enthusiasts and curious locals taking one last trip on it bumped up it's income in it's last year, though not by enough to warrant it's retention.

And this was taking into account factors such as not ever replacing the rolling stock or the track in it's lifetime, closing it's generator plant, local parcel delivery, no signalling staff on the line, having no stations to man or maintain and having drivers who were not paid as drivers and more.

An aside of the saga was how, in 1959, when tenders were opened for private companies to make bid to run two bus routes in lieu of the tram. There were no takers, leaving CIE to run said services instead, routes 87 and 88. How times change

On Henry Forbes, while he ran a tight ship he was known to be a bigoted bully who thought nothing of threatening people, staff, thief, passenger and policeman alike with one of several shotguns which he carried and often issued to his staff. One wonders if this style of man management would survive today outside of Rwanda or the Ukraine?

how would they have lifted such lines back in the day? as in would they have had specialist equipment no longer in existance or would the groups of men have to lift each bit of track on to the wagons? just curious is all

Judgement Day

end of the road wrote: »

how would they have lifted such lines back in the day? as in would they have had specialist equipment no longer in existance or would the groups of men have to lift each bit of track on to the wagons? just curious is all

No specialist equipment - usually no more than teams of men, a winch on a flat wagon and the rest is history.

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

how would they have lifted such lines back in the day? as in would they have had specialist equipment no longer in existance or would the groups of men have to lift each bit of track on to the wagons? just curious is all

There was a flat wagon tram, 11, which was used when repairs were required. It lifted the cabling and pylons. The trackwork was carried out with 11 as far as the Baily, a rail tractor and PW wagons between the summit and Howth and the rest being lifted out by road trucks.

There is still some track left in an adjacent factory; some also sits under tarmac at Greenfields Road and a few random places were the line crossed the road.

corktina

what an asset to tourism that would be now! Hindsight is a wonderful thing

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

what an asset to tourism that would be now! Hindsight is a wonderful thing

This is where you're wrong, hindsight doesn't come into it as people were shouting from the rooftops against closure at the time - as indeed they were when the Harcourt Street line was closed. I've read the newspapers of the time in the National Library and interesting reading they make. At the time of its closure, the three main things that Dubliners and visitors did in Dublin were the Pillar, the Zoo and the Hill of Howth Tram. The far more extensive tramway systems in the Isle of Man survive to this day - foresight not hindsight.

corktina

no, I'm right...no one had foresight in CIE but I have hindsight now.

Things were no different at that time in "enlightened UK". Many scenic lines were similarly lost...it was just the times that were in it. Thankfully The Talyllyn Railway was saved and many others followed, although regrettably not on this island....

Just to add to that, Preservation in the UK started as a result of wealthy young men with time on their hands rolling up their sleeves and doing something. It seems to me in Ireland, it was more a case of (yourself excluded) people expecting the Authorities to do it for them. It is a puzzlement to me why there should be such a difference, is it that "wealthy" bit perhaps?

That edit doesn't really make sense, but I'm sure you'll grasp what I mean!

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

no, I'm right...no one had foresight in CIE but I have hindsight now.

Things were no different at that time in "enlightened UK". Many scenic lines were similarly lost...it was just the times that were in it. Thankfully The Talyllyn Railway was saved and many others followed, although regrettably not on this island....

Just to add to that, Preservation in the UK started as a result of wealthy young men with time on their hands rolling up their sleeves and doing something. It seems to me in Ireland, it was more a case of (yourself excluded) people expecting the Authorities to do it for them. It is a puzzlement to me why there should be such a difference, is it that "wealthy" bit perhaps?

That edit doesn't really make sense, but I'm sure you'll grasp what I mean!

i get you, i suppose their probably were people willing to do such a thing but they didn't bother believing that CIE and anyone else relevant wouldn't play ball and would stifle them at every opportunity

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

This is where you're wrong, hindsight doesn't come into it as people were shouting from the rooftops against closure at the time - as indeed they were when the Harcourt Street line was closed. I've read the newspapers of the time in the National Library and interesting reading they make. At the time of its closure, the three main things that Dubliners and visitors did in Dublin were the Pillar, the Zoo and the Hill of Howth Tram. The far more extensive tramway systems in the Isle of Man survive to this day - foresight not hindsight.

People may have been shouting from rooftops but they weren't shouting from the platforms; most of the trains ran close to empty on the line even with the introduction of railcars and a extensive service on the line.

As regards people in Dublin visiting the Pillar, Zoo and Hill of Howth tram, back then there was bugger all else to do bar pick bar fights with Behan, Kavanagh and Flann O'Brien :pac:

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

People may have been shouting from rooftops but they weren't shouting from the platforms; most of the trains ran close to empty on the line even with the introduction of railcars and a extensive service on the line.

in fairness theirs a difference between suspending services on a line and completely ripping it up and selling off the land so it never could reopen, those who allowed and sanctioned such destruction should have been jailed

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

i get you, i suppose their probably were people willing to do such a thing but they didn't bother believing that CIE and anyone else relevant wouldn't play ball and would stifle them at every opportunity

but in the UK people did it despite BR who could be damn awkward when they wanted to (at management level....on the ground you'd be amazed what help the Preservationists got unofficially/ blind eye wise).

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

but in the UK people did it despite BR who could be damn awkward when they wanted to (at management level....on the ground you'd be amazed what help the Preservationists got unofficially/ blind eye wise).

very true, i suppose over here people were afraid to do anything that could risk the rath of CIE whereas in the UK people were going to preserve no matter what BR management tried to do

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

People may have been shouting from rooftops but they weren't shouting from the platforms; most of the trains ran close to empty on the line even with the introduction of railcars and a extensive service on the line.

As regards people in Dublin visiting the Pillar, Zoo and Hill of Howth tram, back then there was bugger all else to do bar pick bar fights with Behan, Kavanagh and Flann O'Brien :pac:

I used to have passenger figures for the Harcourt Street line sadly long gone but it's a myth that nobody used the line. The people shouting from the rooftops were making suggestions for alternatives to closure but, as usual, nobody was listening.

I would argue that Dublin is considerably the poorer for the closure of the tramway and for their continued lack of serious support for the restoration project at Howth Castle.

corktina

for whose continued lack of support? CIE? Well, it isn't their job to offer more than moral support really to a restoration project. There would be hell to pay if they were to spend money restoring a tram, (unless they have a training scheme or advertising budget they could use, probably unlikely)

It's up to Enthusiasts to foot the bill and provide the labour.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

for whose continued lack of support? CIE? Well, it isn't their job to offer more than moral support really to a restoration project. There would be hell to pay if they were to spend money restoring a tram, (unless they have a training scheme or advertising budget they could use, probably unlikely)

It's up to Enthusiasts to foot the bill and provide the labour.

oh i don't know, CIE did steal it after all, so should be the ones to put it back, in an ideal world of course, in the real world the enthusiasts will do what they can and i wish them the best and every success

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

for whose continued lack of support? CIE? Well, it isn't their job to offer more than moral support really to a restoration project. There would be hell to pay if they were to spend money restoring a tram, (unless they have a training scheme or advertising budget they could use, probably unlikely)

It's up to Enthusiasts to foot the bill and provide the labour.

Meant to say official (State) lack of support. Sorry, I'm even crabbier than usual today - a cough that I can't shake off, plus uprooting from Diego Garcia to the South Sandwich Islands has taken a lot out of me.

Jamie2k9

corktina wrote: »

it's not the high speed bits that are hard to uprate, it's the junctions and the superelevation on bends, not mention signalling constraints and possibly other factors.

I'm not expecting 100% progress but firmly believe more can be done without investment.

The Cork route as no signalling issues and there is no excuse why junctions can't take 100mph when some sections can already.

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

Meant to say official (State) lack of support. Sorry, I'm even crabbier than usual today - a cough that I can't shake off, plus uprooting from Diego Garcia to the South Sandwich Islands has taken a lot out of me.

it wasn't the cough that carried him off, it was the coffin they carried him off in!

(I'm on antibiotics for similar as it happens...I'll have a crab sandwich if they are going spare.)

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

I used to have passenger figures for the Harcourt Street line sadly long gone but it's a myth that nobody used the line. The people shouting from the rooftops were making suggestions for alternatives to closure but, as usual, nobody was listening.

JD, the facts were this; the line was carrying next to no passengers bar the rush hour traffic and it was losing shed loads of cash. Costs were cut left right and centre on the line to try make a difference; signal cabins were closed or switched out on the line while station staff was down to the bare bones, the lines goods traffic was removed it was bringing in that little revenue; railcars, diesel engines and even the introduction of Dr. Drumm's motors showed that the line was in trouble as long ago as the 1930's; indeed the Harcourt Street loco shed was done away with towards the end, again to curtail the running costs.

As to suggesting if the line could have been kept open, by all means it could have. Let us not forget that it was a time when Milltown was literally the border of the city, Dundrum was still a small undeveloped village years away from growth while Foxrock and Shankill were still rural backwaters. Bus links to the city could have been improved, possibly off peak links could have been cut down further that what they were (The line saw no Sunday services for a time; something that went down badly at the time) while competing buses need not have been introduced either. The bus links however went everywhere that the line didn't; this more than anything was what did it.

The internal combustion engine was the in thing, the car especially and railways nationwide were on a slippery slope which were always one consultant report away from entire closure from an anti railway government of the day. Sounds a bit like modern Ireland, if you ask me

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

railways nationwide were on a slippery slope which were always one consultant report away from entire closure from an anti railway government of the day.

yet any pro rail government didn't bring in legislation to make sure trackbeds of closed railways were protected, harcourt street is one such line that this could have protected in some way even if closed, meaning it could have been reopened, this is why its very important that if an anti rail government decides to shut and rip up the lot that they can only shut and thats it, they can't take up the track, and they can't allow the land to be sold

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Sounds a bit like leo varadker if you ask me

Losty Dublin wrote: »

railways nationwide were on a slippery slope which were always one consultant report away from entire closure from an anti railway government of the day.

yet any pro rail government didn't bring in legislation to make sure trackbeds of closed railways were protected, harcourt street is one such line that this could have protected in some way even if closed, meaning it could have been reopened, this is why its very important that if an anti rail government decides to shut and rip up the lot that they can only shut and thats it, they can't take up the track, and they can't allow the land to be sold

SpaceTime

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm not expecting 100% progress but firmly believe more can be done without investment.

The Cork route as no signalling issues and there is no excuse why junctions can't take 100mph when some sections can already.

So why is it not running at top speed more?

That being said, speed isn't everything either.

It would be very handy if they'd actually survey what business passengers need.

E.g. a small car hire facility at Heuston and maybe at Cork Kent might work and push the fact that you could train+drive and get more work done on the way / chill out and sleep.

Lack of power sockets on the MK4 also puts me off using the train as I can't be sure I can use my laptop reliably on board.

The WiFi could be improved a lot too, it's way too slow (although that's common with other services in Europe too. I was on the Thalys between Paris and Brussels and the WiFi was basically totally unusable. It was taking 3 mins to load a single web page!)