Some new changes to Road traffic laws...

CiniO

There is a new Road Traffic Act 2014 available here.

Also there is appropriate S.I. bringing some sections of above act into operation.


It's fairly complicated, but what I quickly extraced from it.

Changes that took effect on 20th March 2014.
- it's now illegal to interfere with vehicle odometer, and person presecuted can now face up to 3 months in jail or C class fine or both.

- they introduced obligation for driver to offer assistance to injured person in accident.

Changes that will take effect on 1st August 2014.

- novice drivers (for 2 years after obtaining first driving licence) will have to display "N" sign (same as currently learner drivers display "L" sign).
- learner driver and novice drivers penalty points limit will be 7.
- holders of foreign licences will be also awarded penalty points in Ireland, and once reach 12, will be banned for 6 months here.


Obviously there's plenty more changes, but IMO nothing too interesting.
I could have got some facts wrong, or missed something, so I'm open to correction.

Witcher

Sure some learners don't even use L plates, so I can't see them obeying the laws on N plates once they pass the test.

Only way to encourage adherence to it would be that if you're caught without one your full licence is gone and you have to do 12 lessons and the test again.

Now saying that doesn't mean I support the N plate, I'm just suggesting how one could enforce it. If the penalty isn't harsh people will just ignore it the same way some learners ignore the rule on being accompanied. Small chance of being caught and even when they are the fine is small.

corktina

bigger chance of getting caught all the time....

JerCotter7

N plate is a stupid idea. I'm not sure what the point is? They have proven they are up to the ****ty standard set by the test. Learners I can understand so you give them enough space but surely if you pass your test you should be comfortable enough to drive in a similar manor to every other driver.

Also what happens if you change the clocks in a car? Say for older cars where a part fails and it's cheaper to buy second hand. You never touched the cars milage.

Interslice

JerCotter7 wrote: »

Also what happens if you change the clocks in a car? Say for older cars where a part fails and it's cheaper to buy second hand. You never touched the cars milage.

Trying to target serial offenders I'd say.

(4) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section it shall be a defence to show that at the time of the alleged offence the person was acting in good faith in order to test, repair or replace the odometer of the mechanically propelled vehicle.

zenno

JerCotter7 wrote: »

N plate is a stupid idea. I'm not sure what the point is? They have proven they are up to the ****ty standard set by the test. Learners I can understand so you give them enough space but surely if you pass your test you should be comfortable enough to drive in a similar manor to every other driver.

Also what happens if you change the clocks in a car? Say for older cars where a part fails and it's cheaper to buy second hand. You never touched the cars milage.

Not really. A friend of mine a few years ago went for his driving test and he was very hungover from the night before (basically still over the limit to drive) but he still went to do the test hungover and passed the test strangely enough, and he's not that good of a driver either, just lucky on the day.

So just because you pass the driving test, it doesn't mean you are the worlds best driver and are immune from wearing an N sticker.

JerCotter7

zenno wrote: »

Not really. A friend of mine a few years ago went for his driving test and he was very hungover from the night before (basically still over the limit to drive) but he still went to do the test hungover and passed the test strangely enough, and he's not that good of a driver either, just lucky on the day.

So just because you pass the driving test, it doesn't mean you are the worlds best driver and are immune from wearing an N sticker.

But after two years he will still be a terrible driver and probably have picked up bad habits making him worse. So why lose the N plate then? It makes sense after you pass a test so unless there is a refresher test after two years they just don't make sense.

zenno

JerCotter7 wrote: »

But after two years he will still be a terrible driver and probably have picked up bad habits making him worse. So why lose the N plate then? It makes sense after you pass a treat so unless there is a refresher test after two years they just don't make sense.

It is nuts, just like everything else in this country.

CiniO

I think Irish lawmakers over last few years went in very good way in relation to driver training and testing regulations.
It is a bit of introducing a system that prooved to be working elsewhere, where you learn to drive with instructor, and driving test is really a first step into your driving career, with understanding that for next few years you need to practice and improve your skills. Ideally you should be improving them all your life.
Because old Irish system where driving test was kind of formality, where those unlucky enough not to participate in abolition, had to eventually pass it after 30 years of driving, didn't really prove to be the best way of training drivers.

zenno

CiniO wrote: »

I think Irish lawmakers over last few years went in very good way in relation to driver training and testing regulations.
It is a bit of introducing a system that prooved to be working elsewhere, where you learn to drive with instructor, and driving test is really a first step into your driving career, with understanding that for next few years you need to practice and improve your skills. Ideally you should be improving them all your life.
Because old Irish system where driving test was kind of formality, where those unlucky enough not to participate in abolition, had to eventually pass it after 30 years of driving, didn't really prove to be the best way of training drivers.

In all honesty though, most folk when they pass the driving test, they just resort to bad habits anyway. Not most would pass their driving test again first time if they were forced to do it again in this time. Every driver has a bad habit no matter how long they have been driving.

Back in the day your father would bring you around the place when not busy - traffic-wise, to teach you to drive and gain experience. Now, for many starters, they have to have a fully licensed driver with them whenever they get into the car. Sure for many folk they can't get a person with a full license to be with them at such an hour/time a day.

JohnBoy26

zenno wrote: »

Not really. A friend of mine a few years ago went for his driving test and he was very hungover from the night before (basically still over the limit to drive) but he still went to do the test hungover and passed the test strangely enough, and he's not that good of a driver either, just lucky on the day.

So just because you pass the driving test, it doesn't mean you are the worlds best driver and are immune from wearing an N sticker.

Nobody is the worlds best driver. What difference would two years and a sticker(N plate) of made to his "not that good" driving?

zenno

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Nobody is the worlds best driver. What difference would two years and a sticker(N plate) of made to his "not that good" driving?

Well these are the crazy schemes Gaybo and others comes up with for the RSA. Sometimes I wonder if the lot of them are taking some kind of drugs in coming up with these schemes.

JohnBoy26

zenno wrote: »

Well these are the crazy schemes Gaybo and others comes up with for the RSA. Sometimes I wonder if the lot of them are taking some kind of drugs in coming up with these schemes.

Some of the stuff they bring in is very I'll taught out imo.

zenno

I 100% honestly think that this new N plate approach will fail. Very very few will abide by putting this sticker on their vehicle because they already passed the driving test. Maybe just another tight excuse to suck a few more monies from the folks that are stopped at checkpoint.

Sure look at the mess regarding penalty points on tonight's Primetime, It's all over the place, chaotic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHH9rXpyX4E

arleitiss

N plates will just cause more of the retarded overtaking by fully licensed drivers.
Last week I was in car with my mother, she has provisional, we drive few times a week in rural areas at night time just to practice, so she puts up L plates, we went to Howth and drove there, nice, quiet, smooth roads. As you know Howth roads are full of bends and turns you cannot see what's around them, so as we were driving some guy just came up, followed for few minutes literally tail gating and then went for overtake even though there was bend just in front of us. We were going just at +/-5 km of speed limit, and this is not the first time I see things like these happening.

The plates just cause fully licensed drivers to think they own the road and the 'watch and learn' tricks. Retarded idea.

Hibs Hearts run FR33

Not trying to troll but im on my third (I think) provisional, and it's out in August, better get booking a test,

A few refresher lessons wouldn't go amiss either

corktina

You only really start learning once you are on the road as a licensed driver. Given that they are trying to stop unlicensed drivers being on the road, everyone passing the test wil be an inexperienced driver and thus a Novice.

I take it all those objecting to N plates are those who will have to display them?

Cabaal

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Nobody is the worlds best driver. What difference would two years and a sticker(N plate) of made to his "not that good" driving?

experience and experience is important,

Its like asking "what different would the 6 months that you have to wait between getting a learner permit and sitting your test do?",

With more time comes more experience, in that time people will generally encounter different situations and gain experience from them.

For example I got my full license 6 months after getting my learner permit, one month later I drove to Dublin for the first time. Few weeks after that I drove to Cork and also Limerick.

Because I wasn't legally allowed on motorways prior to the full license I gained motorway experience, i also gained more experience driving in busier traffic then what I'd have encountered in Waterford at the time.

Introducing a N plate would late people know that although this person has passed their test they still could be gaining experience and as such don't be a dick,

Really thats the same reason for the L plate, if you see a L plate you should give the person abit of a chance. Unfortunately for some muppets they use it as a reason to be assholes to people,

I have my full license around 7 years now, but L plate is on the car for the wife. I still get the odd dickhead tailgating me. Something that never happened to me when I didn't have the L plate up.

djimi

What exactly is the point of the N plate? To denote that the driver is less experienced and to give them more room? I genereally speaking assume that every other driver on the road is incompetent anyway and give them room accordingly!

The N plate only has a purpose if it is there to back up other restrictions, ie a curfew, driver not allowed to drive on motorway, lower speed limit etc (Im not suggesting that I want to see any of those brought in before someone jumps on it!). Other than that I dont really see the point.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

What exactly is the point of the N plate? To denote that the driver is less experienced and to give them more room? I genereally speaking assume that every other driver on the road is incompetent anyway and give them room accordingly!

The N plate only has a purpose if it is there to back up other restrictions, ie a curfew, driver not allowed to drive on motorway, lower speed limit etc (Im not suggesting that I want to see any of those brought in before someone jumps on it!). Other than that I dont really see the point.

N drivers have extra restrictions, like lower alcohol limit or lower penalty point limit. But both are not anything other drivers would need to know from N plate.

However I think N plates is a good step forward, let it be just to let otger drivers know that person in front of him is inexperienced

Del2005

djimi wrote: »

What exactly is the point of the N plate? To denote that the driver is less experienced and to give them more room? I genereally speaking assume that every other driver on the road is incompetent anyway and give them room accordingly!

The N plate only has a purpose if it is there to back up other restrictions, ie a curfew, driver not allowed to drive on motorway, lower speed limit etc (Im not suggesting that I want to see any of those brought in before someone jumps on it!). Other than that I dont really see the point.

It's supposed to warn other road users that the driver is inexperienced, in the UK newly licenced drivers have a higher risk of crashing, and make concessions for them, as you said you should do this for all drivers anyway. But due to our, till now, complete lack of driver training or enforcement of the majority of our traffic laws people treat it as a I must pass this other road user ASAP regardless of the road or other traffic.

doolox

N plates are not a good idea.
Its bad enough having L plates which separate the road users into qualified and unqualified drivers, an in group and an out group in sociology parlance. Now you have an extra out group which will become the target for other drivers hostility on the road. Not a good idea.

ironclaw

- they introduced obligation for driver to offer assistance to injured person in accident.

Don't like that at all. Unless they introduce a basic first aid course as part of the driving training program then thats effectively useless. Someone who is willing or able to help will stop. To victimise someone who doesn't have a breeze is nonsense. You can easily do more damage than good in major trauma incidents. Even a mild fender bender. Even the Gardai don't have a minimum basic training level, at least that I'm aware of. I really think having at least one EMFR / EMT per car in the force would be a huge bonus.

djimi

doolox wrote: »

N plates are not a good idea.
Its bad enough having L plates which separate the road users into qualified and unqualified drivers, an in group and an out group in sociology parlance. Now you have an extra out group which will become the target for other drivers hostility on the road. Not a good idea.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with L plates denoting unlicensed learner drivers on the road in fairness.

djimi

ironclaw wrote: »

Don't like that at all. Unless they introduce a basic first aid course as part of the driving training program then thats effectively useless. Someone who is willing or able to help will stop. To victimise someone who doesn't have a breeze is nonsense. You can easily do more damage than good in major trauma incidents. Even a mild fender bender. Even the Gardai don't have a minimum basic training level, at least that I'm aware of. I really think having at least one EMFR / EMT per car in the force would be a huge bonus.

Yeah that was my first thought also. Although I suspect offering assistance could also mean simply calling an ambulance, but this would really need to be made very clear, because as you say if someone feels obliged to start trying to offer medical assistance without proper training then they could cause more harm than good.

mitosis

There's not a lot of point in creating new laws if they won't provide the resources to have them enforced.

slimjimmc

zenno wrote: »

Well these are the crazy schemes Gaybo and others comes up with for the RSA. Sometimes I wonder if the lot of them are taking some kind of drugs in coming up with these schemes.

I wouldn't give them so much credit, they're just copying other countries such as Australia, UK, France who have been using similar plates for newly qualified drivers for ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-plate

I think they're a good idea though.

Cabaal

doolox wrote: »

N plates are not a good idea.
Its bad enough having L plates which separate the road users into qualified and unqualified drivers, an in group and an out group in sociology parlance. Now you have an extra out group which will become the target for other drivers hostility on the road. Not a good idea.

By that logic they should get rid of L plates because they are a target by idiots who have rage issues,

Andrew_Doran

From memory the statistics show that the drivers most likely to crash or cause an accident are elderly drivers, not young drivers. :rolleyes:

H3llR4iser

Kind of meh.

The "N" plate thing is simply falling in line with the rest of the EU; It is a clever idea in theory, as its function would be to tell other drivers "hey, this guy/girl may have limited experience on this kind of road, give them some space and time", but it will end up being some kind of a stigma; Not surprising in a country that thoroughly abused the whole concept of a provisional license/learner's permit.

The points system for foreign licensed drivers has potential: If they establish a registry, thus allowing access to the same benefits as Irish license holders (e.g. insurance bonus), then all well and good. If they go the "adding you to the records when you get your first points" way, then it's really a huge pile of crap.

zenno wrote: »

...Back in the day your father would bring you around the place when not busy - traffic-wise, to teach you to drive and gain experience. Now, for many starters, they have to have a fully licensed driver with them whenever they get into the car. Sure for many folk they can't get a person with a full license to be with them at such an hour/time a day.

I will never understand how it can be that: A) Parents/relatives apparently had the time to give driving lessons to their teenage children up until the '90s but not anymore and How comes that only Irish licensed drivers are so damn busy 24/7 that it is impossible for a Learner to get accompanied...

Sobanek

I think I have more driving experience than a lot of "experienced" drivers who pop down to the shop to get a jug of milk :rolleyes:

I do about 2500kms a month, I'd say that's a fairly large number.

Not going to ruin mah Beemer with an N plate Stupid idea either way

//edit: Ah, it's from August, good then.

*Besides, wouldn't even know about this if I didn't have a look at this topic*

keithclancy

Sobanek wrote: »

I think I have more driving experience than a lot of "experienced" drivers who pop down to the shop to get a jug of milk :rolleyes:

I do about 2500kms a month, I'd say that's a fairly large number.

Not going to ruin mah Beemer with an N plate Stupid idea either way

//edit: Ah, it's from August, good then.

*Besides, wouldn't even know about this if I didn't have a look at this topic*

I don't think doing a lot of something necessarily makes you good at it.

E.G. Taxi drivers do massive mileage but I've seen a few Taxi drivers like absolute langers :P

Sobanek

keithclancy wrote: »

I don't think doing a lot of something necessarily makes you good at it.

E.G. Taxi drivers do massive mileage but I've seen a few Taxi drivers like absolute langers :P

I've yet to see a taxi driver cause a crash though :pac: People give way to me, where as they never did in the Volvo. :cool:

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

- holders of foreign licences will be also awarded penalty points in Ireland, and once reach 12, will be banned for 6 months here.

.

Bollocks to that. Surely cant be enforceable as other countries don't do it.

djimi

Peyton Prehistoric Handball wrote: »

Bollocks to that. Surely cant be enforceable as other countries don't do it.

I dont see why it wouldnt be, although I would be interested to see how it is implemented.

A better system to deal with foreign drivers and penalty points might be just on the spot fines. I believe other countries have such a system.

j8wk2feszrnpao

These new regulations are pretty much like a lot of the regulations brought in.
It makes it look like they are doing something.
It's a bit like when they reduce the alcohol limit, just a little bit at a time. Not too much so that they can't return to it when they need to fabricate that they are working.

Where are their plans to enforce their concepts?
As usual, it's just another sideshow.
Sure, they'll catch a few people, and add it to their stats sheet, but that's about as much progress as they'll make.

We all see people on their phones while driving, dangerous overtaking, breaking speed limits.....
Just look at the amount of people that drive with their fog lights on when there is no fog; probably one of the more obvious displays of drivers not following basic driving rules.

If the powers that be would concentrate on enforcing current rules, the roads would be a lot safer.
But as someone has already pointed out, just look at the penalty points controversy we have at the moment.

Del2005

Sobanek wrote: »

I think I have more driving experience than a lot of "experienced" drivers who pop down to the shop to get a jug of milk :rolleyes:

I do about 2500kms a month, I'd say that's a fairly large number.

Not going to ruin mah Beemer with an N plate Stupid idea either way

//edit: Ah, it's from August, good then.

*Besides, wouldn't even know about this if I didn't have a look at this topic*

Ignorance of a law is no defence. If you drive it's up to you to know all relevant laws, you're old enough to drive so there's no more need for people to spoon feed you.

mdebets

Peyton Prehistoric Handball wrote: »

Bollocks to that. Surely cant be enforceable as other countries don't do it.

Germany does it and it works. If you get points and you have a non German license the points are marked in the system against this license and if you have enough points to loose your license, you are no longer allowed to drive in Germany (only in Germany, the ban doesn't apply to other countries).

keithclancy

mdebets wrote: »

Germany does it and it works. If you get points and you have a non German license the points are marked in the system against this license and if you have enough points to loose your license, you are no longer allowed to drive in Germany (only in Germany, the ban doesn't apply to other countries).

It only really works if you are stopped by the coppers, if you get flashed by a camera they just log it against your plate and your name + address.

And even then they need to have an information sharing agreement which Ireland for example does not have.

mdebets

mdebets wrote: »

Germany does it and it works. If you get points and you have a non German license the points are marked in the system against this license and if you have enough points to loose your license, you are no longer allowed to drive in Germany (only in Germany, the ban doesn't apply to other countries).

I just wish they would leave the system as it is, so that I can't get points with my UK licence.

SpaceTime

I'm shocked that it was ever not illegal to interfere with an odometer !

ectoraige

ironclaw wrote: »

Don't like that at all. Unless they introduce a basic first aid course as part of the driving training program then thats effectively useless. Someone who is willing or able to help will stop. To victimise someone who doesn't have a breeze is nonsense. You can easily do more damage than good in major trauma incidents.

Unfortunately this isn't always the case.

Some time ago I encountered heavier than anticipated traffic leaving a town and could see cars driving around an obstruction ahead. As they were having to move onto the other side of the road the oncoming traffic had slowed too, some of whom were flashing their headlights too.

When I got closer, I realised there had been an accident and saw a half-dozen or so people standing around on the footpath, one on his phone. Despite the crowd, I pulled in to offer assistance, and saw that it was a three-car fender bender, and a mini-van had driven into the back of the middle car, pushing it into the front car.

It turns out that everybody standing around had actually all been involved in the accident. There was one casualty on the ground with neck pains who had been already taken from the car by her parents, and the gentleman on his phone had a minor laceration. Not one person had called an ambulance, the man on the phone was calling his boss to tell him that he was going to miss his next appointment.

I'm a trained EFR, but being on my own the only assistance I could give was to hold the head of the suspected spinal injury, once I had checked the other cars and called for an ambulance.

Before I reached the accident there had easily been over thirty cars that had driven past without stopping. Any one of those people could have stopped to see if anybody needed an ambulance, but nobody did. You don't need any training to do that much.

It was around ten minutes before the first ambulance arrived, and in that time traffic continued to pass, the only other person who stopped was a motorcyclist who recognised one of the people involved.

Of the three drivers involved that this legislation would apply to, there was the father of the injured girl who was quite shaken, and was trying to look after his daughter as best he could. Then there was the van driver who thought to ring his boss, but not an ambulance, and the driver of the front car who just looked on, having assured me that she and her three passengers were fine.

I understand that shock can inhibit people's reactions, but if legislation is in place telling you that you need to help, then it might just help. What's is important is this is clearly highlighted, just like we all know you don't leave the scene of an accident, we should also all know that we should help people in an accident.

Eric Cartman

Sobanek wrote: »

I think I have more driving experience than a lot of "experienced" drivers who pop down to the shop to get a jug of milk :rolleyes:

I do about 2500kms a month, I'd say that's a fairly large number.

Not going to ruin mah Beemer with an N plate Stupid idea either way

//edit: Ah, it's from August, good then.

*Besides, wouldn't even know about this if I didn't have a look at this topic*

Now somebody correct me if Im wrong , but wouldnt grandfathering rules apply here and only people who passed their test after august would have to use the N plates.

j8wk2feszrnpao

ectoraige wrote: »

if legislation is in place telling you that you need to help, then it might just help

It might. But perhaps a tv/radio advertising campaign would do a better job.

All well and good introducing new legislation, but if they don't inform people then it's just a waste.

djimi

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm shocked that it was ever not illegal to interfere with an odometer !

Why? There are legitimate reasons why you might want to alter the clock in a car; in fact I would suggest that this law is going to cause problems for some legitimate businesses now.

CiniO

Peyton Prehistoric Handball wrote: »

Bollocks to that. Surely cant be enforceable as other countries don't do it.

Any details or links that other countries don't do it?
Only other country that I'm familiar with traffic laws is Poland, and believe it or not - they do it.
You collect penalty points there no matter if you have Polish or foreign licence.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

I dont see why it wouldnt be, although I would be interested to see how it is implemented.

It can be implemented really simple actually.
Once foreign licence holder receives a fine and penalty points it goes down to register which will include his licence details.
Once he reached 12 points, he is banned from driving in Ireland.
They won't be able to confiscate his licence (as it's foreign), but they can enforce driving ban - f.e. on licence number. Garda should have database of banned foreign licence holders, and if they catch anyone like that driving, they should prosecute.

A better system to deal with foreign drivers and penalty points might be just on the spot fines. I believe other countries have such a system.

They do - but you must distinguish foreign licence holders from foreign drivers (resident elsewhere).
In most EU countries you get on the spot fines, if you are caught commiting offence, and you are not resident in that country (licence you hold is irrelevant).
If you are resident, then even if you hold foreign licence, there is no need for on the spot fine.
AFAIK that system operates among most EU countries.

dr.fuzzenstein

Are there now mandatory driving lessons on the motorway for learner drivers?
NO!
Ergo, all the changes add up to nothing but a huge pile of ****.

R.O.R

djimi wrote: »

Why? There are legitimate reasons why you might want to alter the clock in a car; in fact I would suggest that this law is going to cause problems for some legitimate businesses now.

Like the set of clocks we've got here with 26,775km on, that are to go back in to an Avensis when it returns this side of the border? Last mileage recorded from Feb is now 127,802km (well, 79,415 miles) so it's due to "lose" 100,000km as we are now not allowed to correct the mileage to where it should be, as it's an offence?

corktina

bummer :-)

dr.fuzzenstein

R.O.R wrote: »

Like the set of clocks we've got here with 26,775km on, that are to go back in to an Avensis when it returns this side of the border? Last mileage recorded from Feb is now 127,802km (well, 79,415 miles) so it's due to "lose" 100,000km as we are now not allowed to correct the mileage to where it should be, as it's an offence?

And that's how legislation works in Ireland. You got it in one.
Never think, only come up with half-arsed solutions, then hit the pub for the extended lunch.