New corporate identity

languagenerd

hfallada wrote: »

But it will make it easier to market abroad. Foreign students fees make up about 35% of revenue for the university. You have to spend money to make it. Like Ludwig Maximilian Universitaet is marketed as University of Munich abroad

I see how the changes to the name (to make sure the word "University" is there) helps market it abroad. I don't see how a new logo that looks like the logo for a software program will help, especially when their main selling point is reputation, legacy and tradition...

Mr Pseudonym

ProfBL wrote: »

How many of the top 50 unis in the world have not got university in their name? Its a false argument...

I had a think about that having posted something on your blog about MIT, Caltech, IIT, and St Stephen's, Delhi, each having substantial reputations despite the considerable handicap of the absence of "University" from their names. I came up with: all the French Grandes Ecoles (although, in fairness, their worth isn't known about much internationally), ETH Zurich, LSE, Imperial...and then I got bored.

hfallada

hfallada wrote: »

But it will make it easier to market abroad. Foreign students fees make up about 35% of revenue for the university. You have to spend money to make it. Like Ludwig Maximilian Universitaet is marketed as University of Munich abroad

How many spots for non-EU students don't get filled typically?

Mr Pseudonym

ProfBL wrote: »

see the details here... http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2014/04/02/further-thoughts-on-tcd-rebranding/
A surprising number of the THESE top 50 ..As I say, its a bogus argument

Always one to be a contrarian, I'll make the argument that Trinity isn't in the top-50. If it were, then maybe it wouldn't have to change its name, but being lower down means it needs to compensate in ways that the others don't. As I implied, the Devil's Advocate is ill, so I'm filling in.

Mr Pseudonym

ProfBL wrote: »

Really? Lets see. In 2012 fees were approx 60m. (from the annual report). In 2012 according to the HEA (http://www.hea.ie/en/statistics/2012-13) TCD had (approx) 14k students of whom 13k were Euroarea. So the 1k others, not all of whom btw would be non-eu for fees, would be paying 21k each. Hmmm.... not even in med.

35% does seem dubious, but addressing your response:

I make an assumption, but I propose that it's a valid one: non-EU students are likely to take Science/Engineering/Med courses - partly because many would feel that an expensive Arts degree is less beneficial, and because ChinIndians (to adapt a term you used) tend to study in those areas. Med is €32k, Science/Engineering €21k.

Non-EU Undergraduate Fees 2014/2015 | TCD

papu

nommm wrote: »

Ridiculous that they're spending so much money on silly things like this when the standard of the education at the Univeristy is dropping due to cut backs.

A shiny new logo isn't going to make TCD a better university.

Any proof of this?

234

papu wrote: »

Any proof of this?

Have you not been following Trinity's steady decline in the rankings?

papu

234 wrote: »

Have you not been following Trinity's steady decline in the rankings?

??


Historical Data Rank
2013 61
2012 67
2011 65
2009 43
2008 49
2007 53

Source

you can't single out Trinity , many other irish universities have declined , as have the majority of universities across Europe.

Mr Pseudonym

234 wrote: »

Have you not been following Trinity's steady decline in the rankings?

But, those don't reflect the standard of undergraduate education. Also, has it been shown that Trinity has disimproved in quality rather than just that the others have improved?

234

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

But, those don't reflect the standard of undergraduate education. Also, has it been shown that Trinity has disimproved in quality rather than just that the others have improved?

But how can you measure the quality of a university education except comparatively?

Mr Pseudonym

234 wrote: »

But how can you measure the quality of a university education except comparatively?

Fair enough. But, I interpreted that the poster was suggesting that some non-relative measure of quality had reduced in comparison with a previous point in time.

Ziphius

Story in the Irish Times on yesterday's meeting in College re the rebranding. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/tcd-provost-defends-rebranding-as-staff-turn-on-insipid-logo-1.1751011

Irish Times wrote: »

Geneticist Prof David McConnell drew loud applause when he said “we are losing very much more than we will gain” by moving away from the use of TCD and adopting “Trinity College, the University of Dublin” in official communications.

He said the college’s research output was associated with the name TCD and to change the name would greatly damage its standing.

“You are losing the central identity that has carried us since 1592. It’s throwing away the family jewels,” he said. “I would appeal to you, provost, to rethink this.

Did anyone here attend?

Bears and Vodka

Ziphius wrote: »

Did anyone here attend?

Yes, I went to that. It was quite fun actually.

Everyone criticised the over-simplification of the shield quite heavily. Paddy P looked lost and frustrated as with every criticism voiced followed a round of applause. The representative of the design company Huguenot just stood there bemused at the whole debacle. I think the consensus was that we should leave the current crest, and perhaps address the bi-lingual issue of the text that goes beside the crest.

At the end of the day this meeting was most likely in vain. Come Fresher's Week we will see flyers and posters with a new crest.

nommm

I have a feeling that will be the case aswell. What's going to happen with the publishing of papers by staff when the new name comes into play? Surely this is just going to confuse people.

234

Bears and Vodka wrote: »

Yes, I went to that. It was quite fun actually.

Everyone criticised the over-simplification of the shield quite heavily. Paddy P looked lost and frustrated as with every criticism voiced followed a round of applause. The representative of the design company Huguenot just stood there bemused at the whole debacle. I think the consensus was that we should leave the current crest, and perhaps address the bi-lingual issue of the text that goes beside the crest.

At the end of the day this meeting was most likely in vain. Come Fresher's Week we will see flyers and posters with a new crest.

This seems to be a trend with the current Provost. He has taken executive decisions on a lot of important issues. The strategy seems to be to hand-pick a sub-committee, get them to discuss it without consulting the interested/affected parties and then present it as a fait accompli at Board level. Even where stakeholders are given a chance to have their voices heard, it is usually after the proposal has been finalised and then it is said to be impractical to start from scratch.

Ziphius

nommm wrote: »

I have a feeling that will be the case aswell. What's going to happen with the publishing of papers by staff when the new name comes into play? Surely this is just going to confuse people.

Apparently they'll just stick with TCD.

Irish Times wrote: »

The board agreed that the name TCD should remain in use in academic journals as more than 71 per cent of papers now use this name and to change it would risk harming what management noted was “Trinity’s [currently] declining position” in world university rankings.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/tcd-changes-colour-to-avoid-clash-with-value-brands-ryanair-and-ikea-1.1742464

TroutMask

234 wrote: »

This seems to be a trend with the current Provost. He has taken executive decisions on a lot of important issues. The strategy seems to be to hand-pick a sub-committee, get them to discuss it without consulting the interested/affected parties and then present it as a fait accompli at Board level. Even where stakeholders are given a chance to have their voices heard, it is usually after the proposal has been finalised and then it is said to be impractical to start from scratch.

he lives with his mother

cloudatlas

It's all about UCD.

UCD is making the TCD top brass writhe in their beds at night. If you put University Dublin into google UCD pops up first. Sad but true UCD is heavily branded and run like a corporation, Nova UCD, Enterprise Ireland, bench marking for the departments etc... The UCD crest was overhauled, scrolls removed, shamrocks removed, streamlined, corporate. TCD wants this business model.

Bottom line TCD envies UCD. :pac:

Mr Pseudonym

cloudatlas wrote: »

It's all about UCD.

UCD is making the TCD top brass writhe in their beds at night. If you put University College Dublin into google UCD pops up first. Sad but true UCD is heavily branded and run like a corporation, Nova UCD, Enterprise Ireland, bench marking for the departments etc... The UCD crest was overhauled, scrolls removed, shamrocks removed, streamlined, corporate. TCD wants this business model.

Bottom line TCD envies UCD. :pac:

One would assume that if they put "University College Dublin" into Google, the first result would be UCD! More worrying is that when searching "Dublin University", Trinity is ranked lower than both DCU and UCD.

Try this thought experiment - it's important that you banish all associations you have with the word "Trinity": imagine you have no knowledge of Irish universities, and you see a list of Dublin institutions which describe themselves as colleges - SEDA College, Infinity College, Trinity College, Alpha College, Eden College, Dorset College, etc. Would you really have been able to pick out Ireland's most august university, especially if English is not your first language?

Mr Pseudonym

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

One would assume that if they put "University College Dublin" into Google, the first result would be UCD! More worrying is that when searching "Dublin University", Trinity is ranked lower than both DCU and UCD.

Try this thought experiment - it's important that you banish all associations you have with the word "Trinity": imagine you have no knowledge of Irish universities, and you see a list of Dublin institutions which describe themselves as colleges - SEDA College, Infinity College, Trinity College, Alpha College, Eden College, Dorset College, etc. Would you really have been able to pick out Ireland's most august university, especially if English is not your first language?

If you search "Ireland University", these are the results in order:

UCD
NUI Galway
UCC
UL
NUI Maynooth

You have to go to the second page for Trinity!

guineylab

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Would you really have been able to pick out Ireland's most august university, especially if English is not your first language?

People know how to google 'best university in ireland' etc

cloudatlas

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

One would assume that if they put "University College Dublin" into Google, the first result would be UCD! More worrying is that when searching "Dublin University", Trinity is ranked lower than both DCU and UCD.

That's what I meant oops, fixed it.

languagenerd

^^
All of that explains why they want to put University in the title, and tbh, I agree with that. Obviously, they want to attract foreign students, but it also helps graduates seeking work abroad (because if a foreign employer hasn't heard of Trinity, "college" may not sound as impressive/important as "university"). Someone once said to me that UCD was better than TCD, because "it's a university and Trinity is only a college"... The University of Dublin isn't commonly known by anyone outside of Trinity/academic circles.

This, however, does not explain the new logo. NOTHING can explain that new logo :pac:

Mr Pseudonym

guineylab wrote: »

People know how to google 'best university in ireland' etc

But, ofc! I wasn't suggesting that some prospective international student would find themself in that situation. Just that, to a non-English speaker, there is nothing to differentiate them. If a foreigner had decided they wished to study in Ireland, that would be an obvious search. But, do most foreigners first chose that they wish to study in Ireland, and then decide the university? I suspect not. Small factors like whether one's expensive degree is likely to receive the recognition it deserves could be decisive. Trinity has, as far as I can see, three main selling-points: English language, decent ranking, old-world campus. Those should be stressed in conjunction with a name that's not off-putting.

Trinity has got to compete hard to retain its current place (btw, I'm very dubious of the rankings ). In the THES top-100 there are no South American unis, no Middle Eastern, no African unis; China has two (four if you include Hong Kong). CHINA HAS TWO (or four, but allow me to exclude for effect!) - the most populated country, which is investing heavily in research, and has eclipsed US in terms of research output. Obviously the next few decades, will see a rise of Chinese universities, which will likely pull with it other Asian countries, including Russia - remarkable that Russia has only one in the top-400. Ireland has no automatic right to have a top-200 university in decades to come.

cloudatlas wrote: »

That's what I meant oops, fixed it.

Don't worry! I was only joking!


Btw, I'm pretty neutral on this whole affair; I was just arguing for the sake of it. I sympathise with people's concerns about the logo, but think the renewed emphasis on UoD (ignoring concerns relating to research) is a good thing.

Abby19

cloudatlas wrote: »

It's all about UCD.

UCD is making the TCD top brass writhe in their beds at night. If you put University Dublin into google UCD pops up first. Sad but true UCD is heavily branded and run like a corporation, Nova UCD, Enterprise Ireland, bench marking for the departments etc... The UCD crest was overhauled, scrolls removed, shamrocks removed, streamlined, corporate. TCD wants this business model.

Bottom line TCD envies UCD. :pac:

Just did that 'University Dublin' - DCU was first in list. UCD 2nd
Repeated it with 'Dublin University' - DCU was first in list. UCD 2nd again.

In fairness a but of time spent working on google search engine options and it could be bumped up the rankings quite handily, and a hell of a lot cheaper (and far less divisive) than this rebranding.

It does appear as if lines have been drawn and no one is prepared to back down though. Quite unfortunate!

cloudatlas

Abby19 wrote: »

Just did that 'University Dublin' - DCU was first in list. UCD 2nd
Repeated it with 'Dublin University' - DCU was first in list. UCD 2nd again.

In fairness a but of time spent working on google search engine options and it could be bumped up the rankings quite handily, and a hell of a lot cheaper (and far less divisive) than this rebranding.

It does appear as if lines have been drawn and no one is prepared to back down though. Quite unfortunate!

It's slightly different for me but I'm in the U.K. at the moment so the search results are-

Just did that 'University Dublin' - UCD was first in list. TCD 2nd. DCU 3rd
Repeated it with 'Dublin University' - DCU was first in list. UCD 2nd again. TCD third.

It's a shame. The new logo is lifeless.

guineylab

saw the booklets given out to new scholars yesterday, the new crest just wouldn't look right on them!

Extrasupervery

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/to-the-provost-and-board-of-trinity-college-dublin

Petition by the SU, sign if you're opposed to the new identity.

Unshelved

From the Provost's speech at the Scholars' dinner, it sounds like there's going to be a bit of a rethink -
www.tcd.ie/provost/addresses/2014-04-07_ScholarsDinner2014.php

stargazypie

John Scattergood has written an interesting memo on the history of the College and University arms, which Professor Lucey posted with his permission:

http://brianmlucey.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/arms-and-trinity.pdf