How much power can be got from a socket?

Worztron

Hi.

How much power can be got from a socket? What would happen if it was overloaded?

Example scenario:
For testing things on my old PC, I connect a 20 inch CRT monitor + Desktop PC + Speakers to a single socket.

Is this well within safety margins?

Cheers.

liveandnetural

BS1363-2:1995 requires for double socket outlets that both socket outlets have loads applied via test plugs, 1 test plug having a load of 14 amps whilst the other has a load of 6 amps, making a total load of 20 amps on the cable supplying the double socket outlet. The double socket outlet is then subjected to this loading for a minimum continuous period of 4 hours or longer until stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8 hours (stability being taken as less than 1 degC rise within 1 h). The test is passed if neither the terminals / terminations, nor the accessible external surface, increase in temperature by more than 52 degC.


your safe enough with your pc stuff

Worztron

liveandnetural wrote: »

BS1363-2:1995 requires for double socket outlets that both socket outlets have loads applied via test plugs, 1 test plug having a load of 14 amps whilst the other has a load of 6 amps, making a total load of 20 amps on the cable supplying the double socket outlet. The double socket outlet is then subjected to this loading for a minimum continuous period of 4 hours or longer until stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8 hours (stability being taken as less than 1 degC rise within 1 h). The test is passed if neither the terminals / terminations, nor the accessible external surface, increase in temperature by more than 52 degC.


your safe enough with your pc stuff

Thanks for the explanation.

tomdempsey200

I think the double sockets are rated up to 20amp total

sockets and plugs give trouble with heavy sustained loads

bassey

Sockets on a 20A MCB/fuse so neglecting power factor you can draw 4.6 kW from the wall

brightspark

bassey wrote: »

Sockets on a 20A MCB/fuse so neglecting power factor you can draw 4.6 kW from the wall

its possible for the socket to be on a 32A MCB (ring circuit)

2011

Worztron wrote: »

Hi.

How much power can be got from a socket? What would happen if it was overloaded?

Example scenario:
For testing things on my old PC, I connect a 20 inch CRT monitor + Desktop PC + Speakers to a single socket.

Is this well within safety margins?

Work out the total load that you would like to draw from a single socket. Your example is likely to be a relatively small load, I would guess that it is under 6 amps, so well within safety margins.

tomdempsey200

brightspark wrote: »

its possible for the socket to be on a 32A MCB (ring circuit)

the 'draw' is limited by the connected load

or should be

brightspark

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

the 'draw' is limited by the connected load

or should be

Of course it is, the max continuous draw from a twin socket can only be 2x13Amps (assuming accurate fuses in plug tops.

But the OP won't be be drawing anything near that with the load mentioned.

liveandnetural

brightspark wrote: »

Of course it is, the max continuous draw from a twin socket can only be 2x13Amps (assuming accurate fuses in plug tops.

But the OP won't be be drawing anything near that with the load mentioned.

according to mk its

All MK socket-outlets are manufactured to comply with BS1363 part 2: 1995 and are rated at 13A per unit. Double socket-outlets have been manufactured and tested to exceed this rating by margin that allows electrical safety and reduces the risk of heat and mechanical damage to components due to overloading. It should be noted that BS1363 part 2: 1995 does not allow double sockets to operate at twice the permissible maximum loading and it should be remembered that double socket-outlets are not manufactured to be able to withstand a 26A load for sustained periods of time.

Research by ourselves and third party organisations has shown that all MK double sockets can safely withstand a continuous load of 19.5A for an indefinite period. Increasing the load slightly will begin to cause heat and mechanical stresses on the components in a relatively short period. Testing showed that a load of 22.3A was sufficient to cause heat stress that would cause a browning of the faceplates and sufficient heat to cause insulation damage to cable cores. A load of 24A for 43 hours was sufficient to cause significant heat damage to the material in which the socket-outlet was situated and within 75 hours sufficient to cause significant damage that would lead to the very real potential of fire.

MK recommend that users of their sockets consult professional design Engineers when designing installations to avoid the possibility of heat and mechanical stress to components and installations caused by overloading of MK socket-outlets.

brightspark

My initial post replying to Bassy, was to highlight that not all twin sockets are protected by a 20A MCB and that it was possible for a 32A MCB to be used. It is also likely that in an older installation the fuse (DZ2 type) might only be 16A on a radial circuit. (I think older ring circuits were protected by a 20A DZ2 fuse, but
I'm not certain)

But on a 32A ring circuit it is possible BUT NOT RECOMMENDED to plug in two 13A loads without tripping a circuit breaker! The total load then only being limited by the fuses in the plug tops.

In an average house I would expect the only place where two large loads would normally be located close together is in a kitchen, where ring circuits are now prohibited.

Perhaps the fact that a twin socket outlet is only able to safely supply a max current of ~20A, is reason why radial circuits protected by a 20A MCB should always be used in preference to ring circuits that are protected by a 32A MCB.

And liveandneturals post would indicate that even 20A is slightly too high!

Bruthal

brightspark wrote: »

And liveandneturals post would indicate that even 20A is slightly too high!

Dont forget the 20A MCB wont trip too quickly, if at all, with both sockets of a twin fully loaded to 13 amps each.

tomdempsey200

well that's it


the OCPD is specifically designed to protect the final circuit cable not the accessory

although afaik the accessories are usually closely matched anyhow


the ring circuit is an anomaly anyhow in this regard and will prob eventually be eliminated altogether for domestic use


it will still be useful for commercial and industrial though

liveandnetural

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

well that's it


the OCPD is specifically designed to protect the final circuit cable not the accessory

although afaik the accessories are usually closely matched anyhow


the ring circuit is an anomaly anyhow in this regard and will prob eventually be eliminated altogether for domestic use


it will still be useful for commercial and industrial though

i would dissagree with this statment about ring circuits still very common to see them especially in large domestic instlations

tomdempsey200

liveandnetural wrote: »

i would dissagree with this statment about ring circuits still very common to see them especially in large domestic instlations

yes that was their main use from my point of view
a couple of rings circuits is a great job in addition to kitchen and utility radials

do you not believe they will eventually be phased out of domestic use?

unless they changed the rules that conductor size must match breaker size.. same as industrial ring ccts

frankmul

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

unless they changed the rules that conductor size must match breaker size.. same as industrial ring ccts

I always thought that the cable was sized bearing in mind the mcb used?

2011

frankmul wrote: »

I always thought that the cable was sized bearing in mind the mcb used?

Calculate the design current, select a proactive device based on this, then select a cable that has a current carrying capacity that exceeds the rating of the protective device. Finish off by making sure that fault loop impedance and volt drop are not excessive and respecify the cable if required.

frankmul

2011 wrote: »

Calculate the design current, select a proactive device based on this, then select a cable that has a current carrying capacity that exceeds the rating of the protective device. Finish off by making sure that fault loop impedance and volt drop are not excessive and respecify the cable if required.

That's what I thought, I'm not sure what tomdempsey200 means

tomdempsey200

im saying that at the moment on domestic ring final circuits

a 2.5mm conductor may be used on a ring circuit protected by a 32 amp mcb

not a problem if the ring circuit stays intact


im saying they may change the rules so that the current rating of the conductors forming the ring is greater than the mcb rating


and they may not do this of course..


they may do nothing..


they may scrap the domestic ring circuit altogether..

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

im saying that at the moment on domestic ring final circuits

a 2.5mm conductor may be used on a ring circuit protected by a 32 amp mcb

not a problem if the ring circuit stays intact

I am not a fan of ring socket circuits.
However what you have is two x 2.5 T+E supplying the load, not one.
So effectively a 5sq. conductor.

im saying they may change the rules so that the current rating of the conductors forming the ring is greater than the mcb rating

This is already the case. A "5 sq." can take in excess of 32A.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

I am not a fan of ring socket circuits.
However what you have is two x 2.5 T+E supplying the load, not one.
So effectively a 5sq. conductor.



This is already the case. A "5 sq." can take in excess of 32A.

yes.. obviously if the ring circuit is intact

but if not there's a potential for overload

historically with 'domestic' there may not be competent people in charge of maintenance..to put it mildly

and the rules can reflect this

the circuit is idiot proofed by matching physical conductor size to mcb

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

yes.. obviously if the ring circuit is intact

Yes, it must be intact.

but if not there's a potential for overload

I don't know what you mean by this.
Please explain.

historically with 'domestic' there may not be competent people in charge of maintenance..to put it mildly

and the rules can reflect this

the circuit is idiot proofed by matching physical conductor size to mcb

No regulations can prevent stupidity.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by this.
Please explain.

i will provide an answer to your question tomorrow

if you don't figure it out in the interim

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

i will provide an answer to your question tomorrow

if you don't figure it out in the interim

The suspense is killing me, I won't be able to sleep :D

Talk tomorrow.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by this.
Please explain.

Im sure he means a 5 square conductor has potential to become a 2.5 conductor at any time, and could be loaded above 2.5 rating.

Its a long time ago I said I am not a fan of ring circuits. They just dont seem like a proper electrical method, at least in my mad mind anyway.

tomdempsey200

Bruthal wrote: »

Im sure he means a 5 square conductor has potential to become a 2.5 conductor at any time, and could be loaded above 2.5 rating.

Its a long time ago I said I am not a fan of ring circuits. They just dont seem like a proper electrical method, at least in my mad mind anyway.

i like them


ring final( commercial and industrial) and ring mains

but domestic ..maybe they'll make another change

Bruthal

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

i like them


ring final( commercial and industrial) and ring mains

but domestic ..maybe they'll make another change

I never wired one in a house.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Im sure he means a 5 square conductor has potential to become a 2.5 conductor at any time, and could be loaded above 2.5 rating.

If the ring became 2 radials ?
The same applies to any circuit fed by parallel conductors.

I don't like them, either but when the ring is unbroken the cables are protected.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

If the ring became 2 radials ?
The same applies to any circuit fed by parallel conductors.

One of those newly formed radials could be supplying the entire load originally on the ring. Therefore, potential for overloading.

deandean

I run two, 3kw kettles from a twin MK socket the odd time and all is well. that's about 24A for a few minutes.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

One of those newly formed radials could be supplying the entire load originally on the ring. Therefore, potential for overloading.

Potential alright, if there is a failure.
Same with many circuits fed by parallel conductors, but I take your point.

Tuco88

For final ring circuits in industrial location the regs states that the conductor size must match the protective device. Does it mean the combied size in parallel for example two 4mm^2 is effectively 8mm^2 so permitting a greater fuse eg 32amp like the domestic situation? Or a 25amp must be used? If your to use the 25amp are you better off running two radials? Less risk of overloading...

tomdempsey200

Tuco88 wrote: »

For final ring circuits in industrial location the regs states that the conductor size must match the protective device. Does it mean the combied size in parallel for example two 4mm^2 is effectively 8mm^2 so permitting a greater fuse eg 32amp like the domestic situation? Or a 25amp must be used? If your to use the 25amp are you better off running two radials? Less risk of overloading...

yes
I referred to that here
I presume it means the cable is sized same as for a radial

is that just for the EN60309 sockets?

2011

Tuco88 wrote: »

For final ring circuits in industrial location the regs states that the conductor size must match the protective device.

I have never seen a regulation stating the conductor size in an industrial installation. In all installations the protective device must be sized so that it protects the cable.

Does it mean the combied size in parallel for example two 4mm^2 is effectively 8mm^2 so permitting a greater fuse eg 32amp like the domestic situation?

A ring socket circuit should be protected by a 32A MCB, otherwise what is the point?

If your to use the 25amp are you better off running two radials? Less risk of overloading...

In my opinion radial socket circuits are always better. In industrial installations my preference is for a 16 or 20A C type RCBO.

tomdempsey200

it's in the back of the rules..ring circuit conductor sized according to protective device

its prob to do with the loading on ring circuits feeding en60309 sockets in industrial locations

not any potential hazard due to loss of ring integrity

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

it's in the back of the rules..ring circuit conductor sized according to protective device

Yes, I see it now.
It makes me dislike rings even more :mad:

tomdempsey200

they are useful for long runs on final circuit's

in large houses and ind/commercial

sometimes the ring circuit is a better option


and then on a bigger scale you have ring mains for distribution which are also very useful

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

they are useful for long runs on final circuit's

in large houses and ind/commercial

I have wired socket circuits in both over the years and I have never needed a ring circuit to do it.

Generally industrial installations have sub distribution boards meaning that final circuits are relatively short.

Anyway, each to their own.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

I have wired socket circuits in both over the years and I have never needed a ring circuit to do it.

Generally industrial installations have sub distribution boards meaning that final circuits are relatively short.

Anyway, each to their own.

yes the sub boards are generally close by in comm/ind

but ime the runs can still be quite long
compared to small domestic runs and the loading heavier

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

but ime the runs can still be quite long
compared to small domestic runs and the loading heavier

If the loadings are heavier you have the option of installing less points per circuit and installing 2 radials rather than one ring.

In industrial installations I normally see 16A or 32A socket outlets for heavy single phase loads and in these cases only one socket per circuit so a ring circuit is out of the question anyway.

Tuco88

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

yes the sub boards are generally close by in comm/ind

but ime the runs can still be quite long
compared to small domestic runs and the loading heavier

Your on the ball, I just had a quick research. They must be they size of the conductor even if in theparallel use on an industrial/commercial use. Makes me kinda question there use now? Fair point tho most of the 110v sockets are ring in the plant im on. They still have a partical use in particular cases tho.

2011

Tuco88 wrote: »

Your on the ball, I just had a quick research. They must be they size of the conductor even if in theparallel use on an industrial/commercial use. Makes me kinda question there use now? Fair point tho most of the 110v sockets are ring in the plant im on. They still have a partical use in particular cases tho.

Exactly.
If you read Annex 55A you will see that this only applies to sockets "complying with EN 60309 parts 1 and 2".
What they are really referring to a "commando" types of socket outlets for heavy loads. In these cases the norm is to only have one socket per circuit!
Frequently these socket outlets only have one able entry. So a ring is generally out of the question anyway.

tomdempsey200

Tuco88 wrote: »

Your on the ball, I just had a quick research. They must be they size of the conductor even if in theparallel use on an industrial/commercial use. Makes me kinda question there use now? Fair point tho most of the 110v sockets are ring in the plant im on. They still have a partical use in particular cases tho.

yes
just keep in mind that ring final circuit's
are distinguished from parallel wiring in the rules

even though there's similarities

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

Exactly.
If you read Annex 55A you will see that this only applies to sockets "complying with EN 60309 parts 1 and 2".
What they are really referring to a "commando" types of socket outlets for heavy loads. In these cases the norm is to only have one socket per circuit!
Frequently these socket outlets only have one able entry. So a ring is generally out of the question anyway.

you could drop into an adaptable box
above socket
but if they're on a ring don't you have to fuse down at each outlet to match socket rating..I think that's in the rules somwhere

that would make it impractical to use rings

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

you could drop into an adaptable box
above socket

Sure, but let's be honest although it is not against the regualtions this is not ideal.

In industrial installations (typically) budgets are far larger.
There is little appetite for saving a few quid by doing this.
My recommendation (and what I generally see in these type of installations) is one socket per circuit when the sockets are EN 60309 parts 1 and 2

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

Sure, but let's be honest although it is not against the regualtions this is not ideal.

In industrial installations (typically) budgets are far larger.
There is little appetite for saving a few quid by doing this.
My recommendation (and what I generally see in these type of installations) is one socket per circuit when the sockets are EN 60309 parts 1 and 2

agree

Tuco88

2011 wrote: »

Sure, but let's be honest although it is not against the regualtions this is not ideal.

In industrial installations (typically) budgets are far larger.
There is little appetite for saving a few quid by doing this.
My recommendation (and what I generally see in these type of installations) is one socket per circuit when the sockets are EN 60309 parts 1 and 2

That's a fair point, in most cases its an s.w.a glanced into the above commando socket. So if you were using the standard metal clad socket in a workshop area of the plant, are you allowed to use the 32amp lets say on the ring circuit using 2x 4mm^2? maybe the ring is not worth the hassle... what are you really gaining form it?

tomdempsey200

that annex only refers to en60309 sockets not 13amp

tomdempsey200

it's the norm for all ind ring final ccts to use larger cables anyhow

Tuco88

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

it's the norm for all ind ring final ccts to use larger cables anyhow

True, so there is nothing stopping you from using a ring circuit with 2x 4mm on a 32amp in an office lets say with the standard 13amp skt?

Its they grey areas i do hate with the regs...

tomdempsey200

Tuco88 wrote: »

True, so there is nothing stopping you from using a ring circuit with 2x 4mm on a 32amp in an office lets say with the standard 13amp skt?

Its they grey areas i do hate with the regs...

don't think there's any special rules for ind/comm ring ccts. feeding 13amp sockets

ccc of conductors at least 0.67 Times rating of ocpd I would say

if you're using singles cpc is sized same as phase and neutral