Dishonest client

corriefan

Hi all,

I was hoping to get some advice on this or a point in the right direction.

My husband is a self-employed builder who carried out work for a local man to the tune of approximately €2500. He received no initial payment for materials etc, and on good faith he provided them and employed a sub-contractor as well.

We borrowed from my family to do this, as we really needed the work; I don't want to play the sympathy card but it has been an extremely stressful few years, and has taken a heavy toll on my husband in many ways.

Prior to commencing work, this man and his wife asked my husband not to charge VAT, to do a cash in hand job which my husband absolutely refused to do. They appeared to accept this at the time and my husband continued with the job.

In a nutshell this man refused to pay my husband for his work that he told him was not to plan. I presume this is where some of you may roll your eyes and think 'oh no another dodgy builder'. I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH that this was not the case, the man proceeded to continue his home improvements with absolutely no alteration to my husbands work with what appears to be a succession of different tradesmen.

In hindsight we can see how he played us, but being local we trusted him. My husband had been discussing this job with them for months beforehand and was on very good terms with them.They couldn't pay for materials but were speaking of a holiday to Asia at the same time! He is in a very good job, and they are constantly going abroad on holidays, private schools etc.

I consulted a solicitor from the same area about this and she told me in no uncertain terms that this man has done this to at least one other builder for a lot more money and how to proceed.

Essentially can anyone offer any advice, in that we can't really afford to go down the legal route for €2500 but it is a substantial amount to us. We were happy to have a good job with this man, we had just had a baby,it was late in the year with Christmas etc, and it really knocked us for six. To be honest my husband almost fell apart with the stress at the time.

I am thinking of writing him a letter asking for payment again or proceeding with legal action, but am actually nervous about going after this man, he has a very devious side to him. On the other hand, it is a matter of principle also to us.

Thank you in advance for any help.

notharrypotter

Did you have a written agreement as to what was to be constructed and for what price?

corriefan

Hi notharrypotter, thanks for reply, an estimate was given and agreed on. I know it now appears stupid but like I said it was for a local couple that my husband got to know quite well. We met them at school events, my husband introduced me to his wife, both had confirmation children at the same time etc. He was also at their home numerous times in the preceding months to discuss the build.

I met his wife recently in company after yet another holiday abroad, she recognised me and didn't speak to me. It was mentioned to me by a friend of hers at the time that they are in a different league i.e lifestyle, little does she know and I was so tempted to tell her.

It is very frustrating when we are still trying to make up the loss and my husband is continuously stressed and anxious in general.

That said it is a mistake we will never make again.

seagull

If they haven't paid for the materials, they remain your property, and you are entitled to remove them.

notharrypotter

If they haven't paid for the materials, they remain your property, and you are entitled to remove them

They may be your "property" but say for example the disputed item is an installed window.

Consult a solicitor.

Zambia

notharrypotter wrote: »

They may be your "property" but say for example the disputed item is an installed window.

Consult a solicitor.

I would ask your solicitor is there anything illegal about you and the kids standing outside his house with placards.

Pro Hoc Vice

Zambia wrote: »

I would ask your solicitor is there anything illegal about you and the kids standing outside his house with placards.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0010.html#sec10

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0011.html#sec11

corriefan

Thanks for the replies, I think a solicitors letter might be the way to go.

Pat Mustard

corriefan wrote: »

I consulted a solicitor from the same area about this and she told me in no uncertain terms that this man has done this to at least one other builder for a lot more money and how to proceed.

What did your solicitor advise, regarding how to proceed?

corriefan wrote: »

Essentially can anyone offer any advice, in that we can't really afford to go down the legal route for €2500 but it is a substantial amount to us.

I don't see why this should cost a lot of money up front. Obviously, your solicitor would ask to be paid when money comes in.

corriefan wrote: »

I was hoping to get some advice on this or a point in the right direction.

The local solicitor pointed out that the man owes money all over town. It's not always a good idea to wait too long before pursuing someone like that. There could be other people who wish to sue and enforce judgment, etc. That said, I am not fully aware of the exact situation.

Zambia

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0010.html#sec10

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0011.html#sec11

I would fail to see either of those apply.

Is a sub contracted worker not allowed the right to peaceful protest?

coylemj

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0010.html#sec10

Clearly the first of those prohibitions is never enforced by the Gardai because if it was, tabloid journalists laying siege to somebody's home or papparazi photographers following someone around the streets could be prosecuted....

10.—(1) Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, by any means including by use of the telephone, harasses another by persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with him or her, shall be guilty of an offence.

Any time you hear of someone in the public eye appealing for privacy, it's a coded message to tabloid journalists to 'fcuk off and leave us alone'. It's pretty obvious that the legislation above is never enforced.

Pro Hoc Vice

coylemj wrote: »

Clearly the first of those prohibitions is never enforced by the Gardai because if it was, tabloid journalists laying siege to somebody's home or papparazi photographers following someone around the streets could be prosecuted....

10.—(1) Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, by any means including by use of the telephone, harasses another by persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with him or her, shall be guilty of an offence.

Any time you hear of someone in the public eye appealing for privacy, it's a coded message to tabloid journalists to 'fcuk off and leave us alone'. It's pretty obvious that the legislation above is never enforced.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/0313/ireland/22k-for-harassment-by-debt-collector-225267.html

I have been professionally involved in the defence of 2 criminal section 10's and 1 civil injunction case in similar circumstances. But you must know better and my recollection is faulty. There is in fact a rise in such case as the Internet becomes more invasive and AGS discover the power of the section.

Pro Hoc Vice

Zambia wrote: »

I would fail to see either of those apply.

Is a sub contracted worker not allowed the right to peaceful protest?

Yes and no, it may lead at the lower end to a civil injunction or a investigation by AGS if it moves from peaceful protest to harresment. There may be a defence if lawful excuse, but I was simply saying there is a section on the books that may apply.

Zambia

In the example provided

Lets say the for example the OP during Business hours puts up a Placard

"Mr X you owe our Family Business E2500.00 for work performed, please stop ignoring us and pay us."

The OP would be on Public land outside Mr X's address. I doubt she would be there long enough for anyone to claim harassment.

***********OP we are just musing here and you should seek legal advice (not Internet musings prior to undertaking any action some bells cant be un-rung********

Zambia

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Yes and no, it may lead at the lower end to a civil injunction or a investigation by AGS if it moves from peaceful protest to harresment. There may be a defence if lawful excuse, but I was simply saying there is a section on the books that may apply.

Out of interest how much would an application for such a Civil injunction cost mr X?

Pro Hoc Vice

Zambia wrote: »

In the example provided

Lets say the for example the OP during Business hours puts up a Placard

"Mr X you owe our Family Business E2500.00 for work performed, please stop ignoring us and pay us."

The OP would be on Public land outside Mr X's address. I doubt she would be there long enough for anyone to claim harassment.

***********OP we are just musing here and you should seek legal advice (not Internet musings prior to undertaking any action some bells cant be un-rung********

I can not say if it would or would not lead to either civil or criminal cases, but I would be very wary of following such action. The courts take a dim view of people taking the law into their own hands. Also the cost to engage a legal team to defend any such action could easily exceed the original loss. As you say legal advice should be sought before any action.

Zambia

Hence my question of how much to take such an action?

Pro Hoc Vice

Zambia wrote: »

Out of interest how much would an application for such a Civil injunction cost mr X?

In the Circuit court, really depends. In the case I was involved in the Plaintiff was a solicitor so did not cost much. But cost the defendant a few bob to defend the matter. But it could run to thousands.

coylemj

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/0313/ireland/22k-for-harassment-by-debt-collector-225267.html

I have been professionally involved in the defence of 2 criminal section 10's and 1 civil injunction case in similar circumstances. But you must know better and my recollection is faulty. There is in fact a rise in such case as the Internet becomes more invasive and AGS discover the power of the section.

You mention 'civil injunction' cases. My point was based on the fact the legislation states that it is an offence to watch and/or beset someone thereby making it a criminal offence and I have never heard of the Gardai prosecuting someone for this offence.

There was a similar prohibition in the Offences Against the State Act 1939 but the DPP instructed the Gardai back in the 1970s that it was only to be enforced in conjunction with subversive activity.

Zambia

See there would be my thinking. At the moment the delay is in Mr x's interest and he is banking on the builders inability to afford legal council. However if the impetus was on him to resolve the matter he may see quite quickly the best option is to pay what he owes.

Why start spending money trying to get a court order on top of what he owes to stop the OP's visits when if he pays her the visits end immediately.

****Once again OP this is a legal discussion neither me or Pro Hoc will be facing litigation*****

Pro Hoc Vice

coylemj wrote: »

You mention 'civil injunction' cases. My point was based on the fact the legislation states that it is an offence to watch and/or beset someone thereby making it a criminal offence and I have never heard of the Gardai prosecuting someone for this offence.

There was a similar prohibition in the Offences Against the State Act 1939 but the DPP instructed the Gardai back in the 1970s that it was only to be enforced in conjunction with subversive activity.

I also mention 2 criminal cases, where it was used.

An example of a charge under section 10 http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/garda-treated-in-psychiatric-hospital-30074674.html

http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2008/07/bebo-bullying-and-law.html?m=1

Date: 08/03/2007;
Offence: Count 05: Harassment contrary to section 10 of the Non Fatal Offences Against The Person Act 1997;
Plea: Guilty;
Sentence: Imprisonment - 2 years
Last 6 months suspended for period of 2 years on condition be of good behaviour, keep peace, remain under supervision of probation services, remain alcohol free, attend whatever courses they direct to assist in your rehabilitation. Also condition of suspension that say away from his wife, the injured party, not attend or approach residence or work place and not contact her by text or phone. Own bond €250;
Age: 42

http://www.irishsentencing.ie/en/ISIS/view/CCT/sentences/5

I will remind you of your statment "Clearly the first of those prohibitions is never enforced by the Gardai" I am now aware of 3 criminal cases involving section 10, all resulted in conviction.

Section 10 is a offence that requires consent of DPP for Garda to bring a charge BTW.

Now 4 cases http://m.prod.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/journalism-student-infatuated-with-her-tutor-avoids-criminal-conviction-29358935.html

FAILSAFE 00

corriefan wrote: »

Hi notharrypotter, thanks for reply, an estimate was given and agreed on. I know it now appears stupid but like I said it was for a local couple that my husband got to know quite well. We met them at school events, my husband introduced me to his wife, both had confirmation children at the same time etc. He was also at their home numerous times in the preceding months to discuss the build.

I met his wife recently in company after yet another holiday abroad, she recognised me and didn't speak to me. It was mentioned to me by a friend of hers at the time that they are in a different league i.e lifestyle, little does she know and I was so tempted to tell her.

It is very frustrating when we are still trying to make up the loss and my husband is continuously stressed and anxious in general.

That said it is a mistake we will never make again.

1) Solicitor letter.


2) (works really well)
If they are very well known in the area I'd inform them that you will tell everyone they know about the non payment. If they have a reputation to protect they'll cough up the money quickly. My guess is they'll expect you to give up. DONT. This has worked for many a friend in these difficult times.

Call in to their house/place of business again and again and again. Keep the pressure on. Be 100% polite but be persistent, they will fold eventually. They'll think to themselves Its not worth the hassle and pay up. These kind of people collect solicitors letters unfortunately.

3) In future never start work without materials paid and a % deposit of the final cost. Make a contract for every job.

I wish you good luck.

Absolute genius!

Zambia wrote: »

I would ask your solicitor is there anything illegal about you and the kids standing outside his house with placards.

Lantus

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

1) Solicitor letter.


2) (works really well)
If they are very well known in the area I'd inform them that you will tell everyone they know about the non payment. If they have a reputation to protect they'll cough up the money quickly. My guess is they'll expect you to give up. DONT. This has worked for many a friend in these difficult times.

Call in to their house/place of business again and again and again. Keep the pressure on. Be 100% polite but be persistent, they will fold eventually. They'll think to themselves Its not worth the hassle and pay up. These kind of people collect solicitors letters unfortunately.

3) In future never start work without materials paid and a % deposit of the final cost. Make a contract for every job.

I wish you good luck.

Absolute genius!

All sound advice, maybe the local press will do a story? what about calling building control? Do they own other properties they rent out? Are they PRTB registered? Maybe revenue needs an anonymous tip off that there could be some unusual activity going on? search their lives and apply pressure everywhere. Don't be shy of removing property if your solicitor advises such. The only thing they will understand or respond to is firm action. Right now they have ridden you and your family and are laughing all the way to the bank, private schools and all the other wonderful things they can buy because decent people like yourselves subside their lavish lifestyles.

Make sure you send registered letters as well specifying the lateness of payment and a final date to pay.

Don't become obsessed but do get focussed. They will have skin tougher than old leather so you will need to play an emotionless and long term game to beat them. Your not their first rodeo.

ABajaninCork

What about the fact the client asked you to do a job 'cash in hand'? Are there tax implications for the client? In other words - is it worth grassing him up to Revenue??

Pat Mustard

ABajaninCork wrote: »

What about the fact the client asked you to do a job 'cash in hand'? Are there tax implications for the client? In other words - is it worth grassing him up to Revenue??

Assuming that a builder is liable for VAT, it is he who will be liable to collect the VAT from his customer and pay it to the Revenue Commissioners.

Not illegal to pay in cash either.

Better to focus on getting paid asap, rather than involving the Revenue Commissioners, in my view.

SCOOP 64

Why are people like this,and these people being locals ,you could pump into anytime, you would think hes wife would be embarrass by it all,but then again she married him so maybe not, so frustrating for you op,you say your husband got to them and id say they got to know him too,i say there are betting on your husband not making a big deal out of it, there attitude is just let him keep asking for a couple of months then he will move on, no, get that solicitors letter in the post to him, let him know your not here to be messed about, got a feeling he will change is tune.
hope you get your money op,good luck.

corriefan

Thank you all so much for your replies and giving me some really good advice. We are going to pursue it with a stern letter followed by a solicitors letter if need be. For what its worth your comments have given us the encouragement to take matters into our own hands and are much appreciated.

GrumpyMe

Wonder if this would be allowed in Ireland?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/sussex/7361422.stm

corriefan

Hi everyone, just thought I would update my post. A demand letter for payment was sent with a brief reply by letter flat out refusing based on the original flimsy excuse. They were greatly surprised and disappointed which I found very patronising and made no reference to legal advice or any information that would support their claim. Their arrogance is astonishing, but they do have form for this behaviour.

I have made an appointment with a solicitor and feel much more confident about taking them as far as the District Court if necessary. We are fortunate I suppose that this is the first time we have ever had to take legal action, there has never been an issue before with my husbands work.

Thanks again for all the replies

SCOOP 64

They were greatly surprised and disappointed that you want your money they own you, your doing the the right thing, go ahead with the solicitor.

corriefan

Hi everyone, these people have ignored my last letter of legal proceedings. Can anyone advise on the next step to District Court proceedings?

I presume I can do up my own summons and then get it stamped? I want to postpone any unnecessary solicitor costs for now.

Thanks in advance for any help, to be honest I could really do with it at the moment.

goz83

It would be best to get a solicitor to deal with it and if I were you, I would be going after the legal costs too and special damages if possible. If your solicitor recognises a good case, he/she might press ahead with little or no upfront payment.

Pro Hoc Vice

corriefan wrote: »

Hi everyone, these people have ignored my last letter of legal proceedings. Can anyone advise on the next step to District Court proceedings?

I presume I can do up my own summons and then get it stamped? I want to postpone any unnecessary solicitor costs for now.

Thanks in advance for any help, to be honest I could really do with it at the moment.

The new District Court rules are a nightmare, the level of skill now required for even a simple District Court case is very high.

davmol

Hi Folks,sorry to hi jack the thread but what type of solicitor would deal with bad workmanship?

I was on the other end of a shoddy deal and was wondering if its a normal solicitor you woudl contact or is there a special property type of solicitor that woudl deal with legal issues related to a dwelling?

thanks

Pat Mustard

Any solicitor.

nuac

seagull wrote: »

If they haven't paid for the materials, they remain your property, and you are entitled to remove them.

Only if you can take the materials away without damaging the property

corriefan

Hi all, just thought I would post an update on this matter.

After toing and froing between solicitors the past few months, they are not backing down and we will now have to take them to court. That said, I have learned a lot this year about the legal process since I posted this thread and I don't find it as intimidating. I do however find the actions of these people and others that I know of infuriating.

They assume they can just issue empty legal threats based on their previous shafting of other people. We hope in this case to be the ones who make them get their comeuppance, very much as a matter of principle. They have offered no evidence or defence because they simply don't have any for a fact. The latest from their solicitor is that they are 'amused' by our claim which has just angered us so much that we are going to take this all the way. It seems to be very amusing to leave a sole trader financially broke and unemployed based on their say so.

mikom

corriefan wrote: »

Hi all, just thought I would post an update on this matter.

After toing and froing between solicitors the past few months, they are not backing down and we will now have to take them to court. That said, I have learned a lot this year about the legal process since I posted this thread and I don't find it as intimidating. I do however find the actions of these people and others that I know of infuriating.

They assume they can just issue empty legal threats based on their previous shafting of other people. We hope in this case to be the ones who make them get their comeuppance, very much as a matter of principle. They have offered no evidence or defence because they simply don't have any for a fact. The latest from their solicitor is that they are 'amused' by our claim which has just angered us so much that we are going to take this all the way. It seems to be very amusing to leave a sole trader financially broke and unemployed based on their say so.

Keep us updated.
This is an interesting one.

smcgiff

Unfortunately there are people out there that will point blank refuse to pay until forced. Good luck.

Re their being amused. Hopefully you'll get the last laugh.

Gooser14

Have u considered using the small claims court as a means of pursuing your claim for payment?

testicle

Gooser14 wrote: »

Have u considered using the small claims court as a means of pursuing your claim for payment?

Doesn't apply.

Pat Mustard

corriefan wrote: »

The latest from their solicitor is that they are 'amused' by our claim which has just angered us so much that we are going to take this all the way. It seems to be very amusing to leave a sole trader financially broke and unemployed based on their say so.

To suggest that they are somehow amused by your claim is not professional behaviour. Competent and experienced practitioners don't tend to write letters with such disrespectful content, in most cases. This is childish.

Get a good solicitor to act on your behalf and hopefully you will get a result.

mikom

The Mustard wrote: »

To suggest that they are somehow amused by your claim is not professional behaviour. Competent and experienced practitioners don't tend to write letters with such disrespectful content, in most cases. This is childish.

They are probably writing it themselves and mocking up the solicitors letterhead if they are that much of bums.

Pat Mustard

mikom wrote: »

They are probably writing it themselves and mocking up the solicitors letterhead if they are that much of bums.

I wouldn't think so, as they'd probably have the guards around to them fairly quickly if they did. It seems that the letter has an unprofessional, mocking tone to it but there are @ssholes in every job, I suppose.

Mongfinder General

mikom wrote: »

They are probably writing it themselves and mocking up the solicitors letterhead if they are that much of bums.

Impersonating a solicitor is quite a serious offence...worth checking out.

nuac

seagull wrote: »

If they haven't paid for the materials, they remain your property, and you are entitled to remove them.

Reservation of title can be difficult to implement.

For a start, can you remove the material without damaging the remainder of the property?.

Let your solicitor deal with it

nuac

Subject to your solicitor's advice I suggest you arrange for an engineeer or quantity surveyor to inspect and photograph what you have done so that

1. You can issue proceedings for the amount due

2. Forestall any claim that the house owner had to get someone else to remove and redo some of the work, alleging your work was faulty.

Your solicitor should request agreement within seven days for this inspection. If it is refused you can issue a CC Civil Bill with what information you have available adding that further details will be forwarded following inspection.

If inspection is refused you can seek a court order obliging the house owner to allow. That application would be in open court, and might induce a settlement.

Move it on rapidly as correspondence is getting nowwhere. Some of those people are expert at muddying the water.

corriefan

Hi all, thanks for all the replies and advice. I spoke to our solicitor just before Christmas and he advised proceeding straight away to issuing a summons. He agreed that we are getting nowhere with letters and is not going to issue any more. We are happy with that, I saw them today at a local funeral and whatever about her, he is a cold, expressionless man who I believe is pulling the strings. I believe he could get very nasty, and is not used to being stood up to. I just hope the judge will see it that way.

robman60

corriefan wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for all the replies and advice. I spoke to our solicitor just before Christmas and he advised proceeding straight away to issuing a summons. He agreed that we are getting nowhere with letters and is not going to issue any more. We are happy with that, I saw them today at a local funeral and whatever about her, he is a cold, expressionless man who I believe is pulling the strings. I believe he could get very nasty, and is not used to being stood up to. I just hope the judge will see it that way.

Good job for standing up to his arrogance. Keep us posted.

nuac

Good luck with this Corriefan

stresshead101

Hey Corriefan

I found this tread very interesting, and i'm not even surprised at their behavour.. It's crazy to think that some people are just blatant in their refusal to be decent human beings. It's not irrational or amusing to expect payment for a service provided.
Do you have an update? Did things work out in your favour?