Grass roots events: forced closure of events in NCD

buffalo

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/03/nac-triathlon-cancelled-the-latest-grass-roots-event-to-be-effected-in-dublin/

I know it's only a triathlon, but the same rules are affecting pure cycling events too.

Ahead of the local elections in May, is it time to start badgering candidates and higher officials to get this sorted? Not to mention making it a priority for CI. I'm a seasoned letter writer obviously, but I think it's time everyone put pen to paper and sort this out before it becomes a national issue.

manafana

buffalo wrote: »

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/03/nac-triathlon-cancelled-the-latest-grass-roots-event-to-be-effected-in-dublin/

I know it's only a triathlon, but the same rules are affecting pure cycling events too.

Ahead of the local elections in May, is it time to start badgering candidates and higher officials to get this sorted? Not to mention making it a priority for CI. I'm a seasoned letter writer obviously, but I think it's time everyone put pen to paper and sort this out before it becomes a national issue.

didnt this only happen in NCD because of a high ranking guard getting annoyed at how one race was run 1-2years ago?

07Lapierre

manafana wrote: »

didnt this only happen in NCD because of a high ranking guard getting annoyed at how one race was run 1-2years ago?

Allegedly...

RO 06

Ras final stage in to skerries might be neutralised yet

Beasty

manafana wrote: »

didnt this only happen in NCD because of a high ranking guard getting annoyed at how one race was run 1-2years ago?

No - it's happened because of the stance taken by Fingal County Council on cycling events in the county. There was an incident involving a Gardai in the Swords League - the consequence of that was that the Council only then realised they had a role to play and decided they did not wish to approve any "races" in the county's roads unless they were fully supported by the Garda with rolling road closures or on fully closed roads.

Of course rolling road closures are an impracticality for triathlons and getting fully closed roads for such an event is equally difficult given the time taken to run it and the number of "affected" parties liveing on the circuit

Beasty

RO 06 wrote: »

Ras final stage in to skerries will be subject to "appropriate" road closures

FYP;)

manafana

I don't believe this is a country wide issue however I just don't see why every other area will follow suit.

The Uk is in a similar situation to NCD isn't hence why tt is so popular as they cant get many races on

Raam

Cyclocross, it's the way forward. I found Fingal very good to work with in that aspect.

Beasty

To be absolutely clear I, like Raam, have found Fingal County Council actually quite supportive of Cycling - they have also promoted a BMX open day in Balbriggan during 2013 and are actively looking for other longer term options in this area

They actually believe they have a responsibility to be actively involved in any decision process whenever public roads are used for "cycle races". They are laying down what they believe to be appropriate conditions which essentially involve minimising the risk of cyclists encountering motorists (and vice versa). Other councils have not, at this stage, taken a similar approach - whether that is because they have considered the issue and decided they do not need to be involved in such decision, or have simply not considered the issue, remains to be seen (and I personally have a view on where most councils sit on this having been actively involved in discussions with FCC on this partiular issue).

niceonetom

Beasty wrote: »

To be absolutely clear I, like Raam, have found Fingal County Council actually quite supportive of Cycling - they have also promoted a BMX open day in Balbriggan during 2013 and are actively looking for other longer term options in this area

So they're very supportive of cycling*.

*as long as said cycling does not happen on a road.

Brilliant.

Beasty wrote: »

They are laying down what they believe to be appropriate conditions which essentially involve minimising the risk of cyclists encountering motorists (and vice versa).

That is a masterful euphemism for banning racing. Why not ban bicycles altogether (if only they had the power to do so)? That would after all reduce the "risk of cyclists encountering motorists (and vice versa)" to zero! A victory for all concerned!

Chips Lovell

Does Fingal have any authority under the 1993 Roads Act to block events going ahead? As far as I know, what constitutes a road race under the act still hasn't been prescribed by the Minister.

Diarmuid

Beasty wrote: »

They actually believe they have a responsibility to be actively involved in any decision process whenever public roads are used for "cycle races"..

Which was intentionally or unintentionally validated by the engagement of the NCD league with them, resulting in the cancellation of that league.

07Lapierre

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Does Fingal have any authority under the 1993 Roads Act to block events going ahead? As far as I know, what constitutes a road race under the act still hasn't been prescribed by the Minister.

Yes they do:

(2) A person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race shall give at least one month's notice (or such other period of notice as may be prescribed by the Minister) in writing to the road authority and to the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána within whose district the road race is to be held.

(3) (a) A road authority may by notice in writing served on a person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race or, where the name of that person cannot be ascertained by reasonable inquiry, by notice published in one or more newspapers circulating in the area in which the road race is to be held—

(i) prohibit the holding of the road race,

(ii) prohibit the holding of the road race unless specified conditions, restrictions or requirements are complied with,

(iii) impose specified conditions, restrictions or requirements in relation to the holding of the road race which must be complied with.

(b) The conditions under paragraph (a) may include the giving of security or the provision of an indemnity.

(4) Any person who contravenes subsection (2) or a notice under subsection (3) shall be guilty of an offence.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/sec0074.html#sec74

Chips Lovell

That's the legislation I was referring to. The previous sub-section states:

74.—(1) In this section “road race” means a prescribed class of race, time trial or speed trial on a public road involving persons, vehicles or animals.

My understanding is that the prescription has never been made, i.e. no minister with responsibility for roads has ever drawn up a statutory instrument prescribing what constitutes a "road race". In the absence of that, sub-sections 2 and 3 have yet to come into force.

RayCun

Isn't the problem that any cycle race is going to involve breaking the law? Not just crossing the centre white line, which maybe could be stopped, but cycling more than two abreast for extended periods. Which means no other traffic in the same direction at the same time. And at any junctions on the race route, the cyclists have to be given priority, which means marshalls at junctions telling ('asking') traffic to stop.

That doesn't mean cycle racing should be banned. Some/all of these rules are suspended for parades, car races, running races etc etc, they could be for cycle races too. But the council and gardai want/have to be involved in deciding when these rules are going to be suspended

Chips Lovell

My reading of this is that if you want to run a race without closing roads, you can, without having to seek permission. You'd only need to approach a local authority if you require road closures, as per section 75 of the Roads Act.

RayCun

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

My reading of this is that if you want to run a race without closing roads, you can, without having to seek permission. You'd only need to approach a local authority if you require road closures, as per section 75 of the Roads Act.

And in this race on open roads, would all normal traffic laws be in force?

Chips Lovell

Yes, of course.

07Lapierre

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

My reading of this is that if you want to run a race without closing roads, you can, without having to seek permission. You'd only need to approach a local authority if you require road closures, as per section 75 of the Roads Act.

+1 But before running a "Race" or "Event" on a public road, the Local authority and the Garda Superintendant responsible for the area must be informed.

BUT once informed, they can object to the race or event. No reason has to be given.



http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/events/how-to-organise-a-cycling-ireland-event

RayCun

including

29.—(1) A pedal cyclist shall not, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists (and then only if to do so will not endanger other traffic or pedestrians) drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cycles driving abreast.

Chips Lovell

07Lapierre wrote: »

+1 But before running a "Race" or "Event" on a public road, the Local authority and the Garda Superintendant responsible for the area must be informed.

BUT once informed, they can object to the race or event. No reason has to be given.

That's still referring to section 74 of the act though.

07Lapierre

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Does Fingal have any authority under the 1993 Roads Act to block events going ahead? As far as I know, what constitutes a road race under the act still hasn't been prescribed by the Minister.

Is there any proof of this? (because FIngal and Balbriggan Gardai don't seem to be aware of this)

Chips Lovell

07Lapierre wrote: »

Is there any proof of this?

Search the statute book. There's nothing there.

ragazzo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Search the statute book. There's nothing there.

Statutes and laws are great. They keep the peasants in their place. State bodies dip in and out when necessary.

So, if a CC tells a Race Promoter that he/she cannot hold a race on the roads under its authority, what happens next.
Does the race go ahead regardless? Does the race promoter bring the council to court?
Even if you are correct, what can a race organiser do against a council decision.

Lumen

ragazzo wrote: »

So, if a CC tells a Race Promoter that he/she cannot hold a race on the roads under its authority, what happens next.

What do you mean by "under its authority"? AGS police the roads. The council and NRA maintain them.

Should I ask my housekeeper* whether I'm allowed to run around my kitchen?

Stuff is legal by default.

(* I don't have a housekeeper)

Chips Lovell

ragazzo wrote: »

So, if a CC tells a Race Promoter that he/she cannot hold a race on the roads under its authority, what happens next.
Does the race go ahead regardless? Does the race promoter bring the council to court?
Even if you are correct, what can a race organiser do against a council decision.

The race organiser doesn't have to do anything. If a local authority believes it has the legal power to stop a road race going ahead, it's up to them to bring the race organiser to court.

detones

If the issue is solely with the Local Authorities has anybody considered making a representation to a local rep who can bring it up as a Question/motion in the Monthly Council Meetings. If the affected clubs are just dealing with the Admin & Engineering staff they can very easily be fobbed off. These days local authorities are very conservative when it comes to a lot of issues and it's easier just to say no. It may just take some political pressure to get the issue resolved. As mentioned earlier election season is looming.

Raam

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The race organiser doesn't have to do anything. If a local authority believes it has the legal power to stop a road race going ahead, it's up to them to bring the race organiser to court.

Would you want to risk going to court? Personally I wouldn't. Maybe other folk have more time and energy to deal with that. If so, good on 'em.

RobFowl

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Does Fingal have any authority under the 1993 Roads Act to block events going ahead? As far as I know, what constitutes a road race under the act still hasn't been prescribed by the Minister.

The CI insurance coverage is conditional on permission being given. If the local authority or police refuse permission then there is no insurance and organisers become personally liable for any issues.
CI is an All Island body covering 2 different jurisdictions so Irish statute is only part of the issue.

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

Would you want to risk going to court? Personally I wouldn't. Maybe other folk have more time and energy to deal with that. If so, good on 'em.

Risk of being taken to court for what, exactly?

ragazzo

Lumen wrote: »

What do you mean by "under its authority"? AGS police the roads. The council and NRA maintain them.

Should I ask my housekeeper* whether I'm allowed to run around my kitchen?

Stuff is legal by default.

(* I don't have a housekeeper)

Hint: Local Authority

Do the Gardaì maintain the roads too?

It is necessary to gain permission from the local county council when making an application to run a road race.

What you do to your housekeeper does not have to be notified to the county council. Maybe it is a garda matter... who knows?

RayCun

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The race organiser doesn't have to do anything. If a local authority believes it has the legal power to stop a road race going ahead, it's up to them to bring the race organiser to court.

What if the local authority and gardai decide that they're not going to turn a blind eye to lawbreaking during the race?

ragazzo

Lumen wrote: »

Risk of being taken to court for what, exactly?

You are obviously not a Race Promoter. Riding races does not bring the same set of headaches.
Try running a race in Fingal and then come back and tell us all about it.

Talk soon!

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Risk of being taken to court for what, exactly?

I know you have been paying attention and can answer that for yourself.

Chips Lovell

RobFowl wrote: »

The CI insurance coverage is conditional on permission being given. If the local authority or police refuse permission then there is no insurance and organisers become personally liable for any issues.
CI is an All Island body covering 2 different jurisdictions so Irish statute is only part of the issue.

Do you have a link for that document? I'd checked before but all I could find were CI regs saying event organisers had to notify a local authority and police where appropriate that an event was happening.

Lumen

ragazzo wrote: »

Hint: Local Authority

That means specifically nothing.

ragazzo wrote: »

It is necessary to gain permission from the local county council when making an application to run a road race.

As RobFowl has pointed out, that's a Cycling Ireland/insurance issue, not a legal one.

If I want to run a bicycle race on a public road I can do so perfectly legally and without permission from anyone provided that the ROTR are observed. I've seen nothing in any of these threads to contradict that.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

That means specifically nothing.



As RobFowl has pointed out, that's a Cycling Ireland/insurance issue, not a legal one.

If I want to run a bicycle race on a public road I can do so perfectly legally and without permission from anyone provided that the ROTR are observed. I've seen nothing in any of these threads to contradict that.

Go ahead and do it then.

Chips Lovell

RayCun wrote: »

What if the local authority and gardai decide that they're not going to turn a blind eye to lawbreaking during the race?

That's a separate issue. Just because it's a race, you don't have carte blanche to break the law. What we're talking about here is the legality of racing itself, not what goes on during a race.

Lumen

ragazzo wrote: »

You are obviously not a Race Promoter. Riding races does not bring the same set of headaches.
Try running a race in Fingal and then come back and tell us all about it.

I'm not questioning the practical issue of running a C.I. road race, I'm questioning vague assertions about legality and authority.

Raam wrote: »

Go ahead and do it then.

Boards members have run several unaffiliated races (time trials) around Dublin, including out near Batterstown, with no permission sought from anyone.

ThisRegard

I live local to the NAC and have never been affected by the race being ran, in fact I'd say it has very little affect on traffic in the general area as it's surrounded mostly by business parks which are dead on a weekend, although I can't seem to find a map of the route at the moment.

ragazzo

Lumen wrote: »

That means specifically nothing.



As RobFowl has pointed out, that's a Cycling Ireland/insurance issue, not a legal one.

If I want to run a bicycle race on a public road I can do so perfectly legally and without permission from anyone provided that the ROTR are observed. I've seen nothing in any of these threads to contradict that.

No worries. Let me know when and where and I will be along to support you. You could call it the Lumen GP.

Are you actually going to hold a race or are you speculating again? It means absolutely nothing if it is mere chatter.

07Lapierre

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not questioning the practical issue of running a C.I. road race, I'm questioning vague assertions about legality and authority.



Boards members have run several unaffiliated races (time trials) around Dublin, including out near Batterstown, with no permission sought from anyone.

Time Trails are different...its easy to arrange a TT and run it within the rules of the road.

RayCun

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

That's a separate issue. Just because it's a race, you don't have carte blanche to break the law. What we're talking about here is the legality of racing itself, not what goes on during a race.

But if cycle racing on the roads always involves breaking the law, how can you separate them? Can you run a race where cyclists are not allowed cycle more than two abreast? (and that's without getting into the question of junctions)

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Boards members have run several unaffiliated races (time trials) around Dublin, including out near Batterstown, with no permission sought from anyone.

We are talking about NCD though. Hold your race there and see what might happen.

Chips Lovell

RayCun wrote: »

But if cycle racing on the roads always involves breaking the law, how can you separate them? Can you run a race where cyclists are not allowed cycle more than two abreast? (and that's without getting into the question of junctions)

Smaller races are pretty easy to run without any road traffic law violations. But that isn't the issue at all. The cops could show up at a race and haul people up for crossing the white line or cycling more than two/three abreast regardless of whether the race is being held with permission from a local authority or not. The only time you'd get a bye on breaking road traffic law is when the roads are completely closed. And few, if any, races would have the budget for that.

RayCun

If you had permission from the Gardai and local authority to hold a race, I very much doubt they'd pull you up for cycling more than two abreast.
If your application said you were going to use one side of the road and cyclists were all over both sides, yes, that could land you and them in trouble.

Lumen

ragazzo wrote: »

No worries. Let me know when and where and I will be along to support you. You could call it the Lumen GP.

Are you actually going to hold a race or are you speculating again? It means absolutely nothing if it is mere chatter.

I'm not sure extreme condescension is helping your point.

ragazzo

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not sure extreme condescension is helping your point.

So that's a no then?

morana

Will the Giro be stopped or will they have to stop at every junction????

detones

morana wrote: »

Will the Giro be stopped or will they have to stop at every junction????

The state of the Roads around NCD will make sure the Giro comes to a stop a few times. How they plan to do an intermediate Sprint through Balbriggan I'll never know. I nearly came off twice last week coming into the town at say 40kph those lads will be doing near 65 to 70.

ragazzo

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not sure extreme condescension is helping your point.

Not trying to be condescending so I apologise if it came across like that.