Men’s Human Rights Ireland

Seriously?

I'm surprised noone posted this yet, but a new Irish mens right organisation has just launched their website.

There's an article on it on the voice for men site.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/mens-human-rights-ireland-launches-with-save-our-sons-sos-campaign/

And the site itself can be found on the next link.
http://www.menshumanrightsireland.org/

Great to see some movement and activisim here in Ireland.

Panthro

Just had a quick browse through the men's right website.
It's pretty well layed out and has Some interesting articles.

Pat Mustard

Link:

The Irish Mammy is a fearsome creature who will fight tooth and claw for their sons.

I'm not convinced.

I don't know a lot about mens' rights activists' or feminist agendas, but I know subjective, exaggerated rubbish when I see it.

talkativeone

Howarye lads, I'm with the abovementioned group. There's a lot wrong with the way men are treated in this country purely on account of their gender, and we mean to set that straight.

What we do and what we're about is well covered on the website but if anyone has any questions please do ask.

The Mustard wrote: »

I'm not convinced.

I don't know a lot about mens' rights activists' or feminist agendas, but I know subjective, exaggerated rubbish when I see it.

That was a gonzo piece from our man, uncut as it were. There's everything from humour to peer reviewed research on the site for your perusal, do stop by and say hello.

banquo

Good idea, poorly executed.

eviltwin

There are some interesting topics, some causes we can all get behind but a lot that looks insane. For example, telling men re marriage "don't do it" when the laws as they stand offer no support to unmarried fathers and most marriages in Ireland survive is crazy. Ditto the equal share re health spending. Seeing as only women give birth and a huge amount of money goes into maternity service it would acceptable that area continues to be funded. Most mums to be have partners after all who I'm sure don't want the lives of their loved ones and unborn children put at risk. I also think any men's rights group needs to get women on board as women are the primary caregivers of our young men, you really need to update the Women page and give it a bit more than just some random pics of women with "I'm not a feminist" posters.

Pawwed Rig

banquo wrote: »

Good idea, poorly executed.

Mod note - Please be more constructive. This kind of post adds nothing to discussion.

talkativeone

eviltwin wrote: »

There are some interesting topics, some causes we can all get behind but a lot that looks insane. For example, telling men re marriage "don't do it" when the laws as they stand offer no support to unmarried fathers and most marriages in Ireland survive is crazy.

No support is a lot better than what will happen to you in the divorce courts, believe me. Or believe this:

• 99 percent of Irish husbands lose their homes during divorces
• Judges frequently make child maintenance orders against men on state benefits whose marriages have broken down - leaving many living below national insolvency guidelines
• In seven out of ten cases the judge ordered a transfer of the property into the wife’s name
• During 160 contested cases when an order was made to sell the home the wife received more than half of the proceeds in 25 percent of the cases, during the other 75 percent the proceeds were split
• Maintenance orders against fathers in receipt of state benefits, place many men below subsistence levels
• Joint custody does not mean shared parenting, with children in more than nine out of 10 cases living with their mothers- the "standard access" for married dads to their children after separation is "a couple of hours" every second week, with a few hours once or twice during the week
• In no cases were the views of any child heard directly by a judge
• A significant number of divorce cases take eight years or more to be concluded
• Divorce in Ireland costs on average €30,000
• 100% of maintenance orders, both child and spousal maintenance, are made in favour of the wife

Besides the new Children and Family Relationships Bill 2014 appears to address many single fathers rights issues. Note it doesn't address seperated fathers rights. You can find all of this on our fathers rights page.

That divorces are steadily rising in Ireland, with over 80,000 as of 2011 should be warning enough that marriage isn't a great idea but even if you find Mrs Right and live happily ever after, the fact remains that your life and ongoing happiness are entirely dependent on her, she can ruin you whenever she likes with the full backing of the state.

Would you advise anyone to enter into such a one sided contract even if they really trust the other party? I wouldn't.

eviltwin wrote: »

Ditto the equal share re health spending. Seeing as only women give birth and a huge amount of money goes into maternity service it would acceptable that area continues to be funded. Most mums to be have partners after all who I'm sure don't want the lives of their loved ones and unborn children put at risk.

While Ireland was the first OECD country to have a male-specific health programme, to the best of our knowledge (this is still being checked) its annual budget was €15000 or a similar laughably low number. This is why we need charities like Movember to help and raise awareness of male specific health issues. We're not saying remove female health spending at all - just balance the budget a lot more equally.

eviltwin wrote: »

I also think any men's rights group needs to get women on board as women are the primary caregivers of our young men, you really need to update the Women page and give it a bit more than just some random pics of women with "I'm not a feminist" posters.

If you take a look at the Save Our Sons page you'll find plenty of women. Not to mention that many of the leading figures in the MHRM are women, like Karen Straughan, Alison Tieman, Tara Palmatier and others. You can find articles and videos from them on the site.

I appreciate that some of this might not be what you're used to reading, but that's because nobody has been talking about it till now.

That's going to change.

GardenMadness

Basically, as a woman, yes, please do stay away from us, MRAs. Leave us alone and all your problems disappear. And so do many of ours!

Result!

Pawwed Rig

talkativeone wrote: »

I appreciate that some of this might not be what you're used to reading, but that's because nobody has been talking about it till now.

That's going to change.

That is not true. The regular users of this forum (including the person you are addressing) have been talking about this stuff for years.

talkativeone

GardenMadness wrote: »

Basically, as a woman, yes, please do stay away from us, MRAs. Leave us alone and all your problems disappear. And so do many of ours!

Result!

Many of the problems affecting men also deeply and profoundly affect women. Men are committing suicide at five times the rate of women in this country, all of whom had mothers, most of whom are young. Sisters, aunts, grandmothers, daughters, female friends, all are affected.

In any case MRAs have no difficulty with women. There are various subsets within the MHRM umbrella:

MRAs, mens rights activists, people like myself and my colleagues. We actively draw attention to problems affecting men and lobby for change. We also push for changes in the way society sees men, as brutish punching bags and disposable objects of utility.

MGTOWs are Men Going Their Own Way, who you appear to be referring to above. These are men who to one degree or another have chosen to dissociate themselves from women. For some it's just refusing the massive pressure to get married, for others its a full withdrawal, they minimise any and all contact with females. The Japanese "herbivore" phenomenon is an example of MGTOWs. MRAs have generally cordial relations with MGTOWs.

PUAs are Pick Up Artists, these are men who seek to have chameleon like personalities, they change to suit the woman they are chasing at the moment. They don't like MRAs and MRAs don't like them, as they are choosing to subordinate their own identity and rights to satisfy their lust.

Tradcons, or traditional conservatives want a return to the traditional roles of men and women. While MRAs do co-operate with them on certain issues, the relationship is at best frosty. Traditional roles enslave men as surely as any jail sentence.

Masculists or masculinists are the last and smallest subset. These are genuine male supremacists, who want obedience from women. They are expelled immediately from any and all MRA groups.

talkativeone

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

That is not true. The regular users of this forum (including the person you are addressing) have been talking about this stuff for years.

Eh I was referring more to the mainstream media.

GardenMadness

MRAs, mens rights activists, people like myself and my colleagues. We actively draw attention to problems affecting men and lobby for change. We also push for changes in the way society sees men, as brutish punching bags and disposable objects of utility.

Yeah, and I would have precisely no issue with any of this, but let's now be honest amongst ourselves, your site has a mock up of a pig wearing lipstick and linking it to feminism which suggests that that's not really your only aim.

talkativeone

GardenMadness wrote: »

Yeah, and I would have precisely no issue with any of this, but let's now be honest amongst ourselves, your site has a mock up of a pig wearing lipstick and linking it to feminism which suggests that that's not really your only aim.

Woman does not equal feminist, nor does feminist equal woman. One is a gender, the other is a particularly toxic collection of ideologies which is harmful to both men and women.

Given that feminism and feminist groups are actively opposed to mens rights it does fall within our brief. You can find more information on feminism in Ireland within the article "An open secret, a closed door" and in an address by Karen Straughan under the research tab entitled "feminism".

eviltwin

talkativeone wrote: »

Eh I was referring more to the mainstream media.

What's your story Talkativone? What inspired you to set up the site?

Christy42

talkativeone wrote: »

99 percent of Irish husbands lose their homes during divorces

That is a lie. State it correct or don't state it at all. I would imagine that less than 99 percent of husbands go through a divorce never mind lose their homes.

The page with women holding up signs saying they don't need feminism is silly. Not all feminists hate men (some very vocal ones do), many (I would imagine most) would like equal rights and should be fought along side (you march with them, they march with you). I have met plenty who would be in favour of a stronger balance in the courts or having paternity leave. The point is that men and women get discriminated against in different parts of life so helping one gender doesn't always mean hurting the other.

GardenMadness

talkativeone wrote: »

Woman does not equal feminist, nor does feminist equal woman. One is a gender, the other is a particularly toxic collection of ideologies which is harmful to both men and women.

Given that feminism and feminist groups are actively opposed to mens rights it does fall within our brief. You can find more information on feminism in Ireland within the article "An open secret, a closed door" and in an address by Karen Straughan under the research tab entitled "feminism".

You think feminism is toxic and harmful? How? And which men's rights does feminism oppose?

Also, I don't need a Karen Straughan to tell me about feminism in Ireland, thanks very much. If you're trying to pretend that she's Irish, or living in Ireland, don't bother.

Absent feminism, what role do you think women should have in society?

talkativeone

eviltwin wrote: »

What's your story Talkativone? What inspired you to set up the site?

I was unfortunately the recipient of a particularly savage period of domestic violence at the hands of a woman for several years, there was no help for me. I stumbled across AVfM not so long ago and the rest is as they say history.

Christy42 wrote: »

That is a lie. State it correct or don't state it at all. I would imagine that less than 99 percent of husbands go through a divorce never mind lose their homes.

The figure and phrase are direct quotes from the research and article linked on our Divorce for men page.

Christy42 wrote: »

Not all feminists hate men

Most of the people who self identify as feminists do so because they saw a pretty girl holding up a placard saying that "If you believe in equality you're a feminist" on facebook one time. Feminism has nothing to do with equality and if you examine the origins and development of the movement you'd be well aware of that fact. At its heart feminism is based on the patriarchal theory of dominance, which tells us that men are essentially more powerful and aggressive than women, and inclined to use that against women.

Which is of course nonsense, especially in the modern era. Less than 1% of men are ever convicted of a violent crime, 99% of men are therefore not inclined to violence. Even if you want to factor underreporting into the picture, it's still minimum 97%.

Unfortunately it has led to real life policies like the Duluth model of law enforcement, where even if a man is being battered by his wife, he's the one that gets arrested, or the Swedish model of prostitution law which criminalises clients - end result, fewer and more violent clients, and it in fact encourages human trafficking.

Other victims of feminist patriarchy theory include many male suicides and any man who suffers domestic violence - no shelters or support for them, since they're to blame according to feminism.

Everybody has a variety of resentments, it's hard to step away from them. What feminism does is it picks on one particular resentment and says, "hey, it's okay to hate, its okay to demonise, its just fine to despise men because patriarchy". Then the law followed the theory and the guns followed the law.

Christy42 wrote: »

The point is that men and women get discriminated against in different parts of life so helping one gender doesn't always mean hurting the other.

Exactly the view of the MHRM. Not, sadly, the view of feminism.

talkativeone

GardenMadness wrote: »

You think feminism is toxic and harmful? How? And which men's rights does feminism oppose?

Please read the article entitled "An open secret, a closed door" on the home page of our website.

GardenMadness wrote: »

Also, I don't need a Karen Straughan to tell me about feminism in Ireland, thanks very much. If you're trying to pretend that she's Irish, or living in Ireland, don't bother.

I'm not, but feminism is an international phenomenon and follows very much the same pattern wherever it puts down roots.

GardenMadness wrote: »

Absent feminism, what role do you think women should have in society?

An equal role to men. I'll quote from an article on our site which sums it up I think:

I happened to read a facebook entry written by a young lady of my acquaintance here in Galway about her day out shopping in the city. Nothing particularly interesting, the usual chit chat, except for a couple of posts describing where a young man said another girl in the group had unceremoniously dumped a strawberry milkshake over him in response to some comment he had made, while they were sitting in McDonalds, to general merriment.

What would I have done in that situation, had I been that young man?

I'd have asked myself, "what would I do if she was a man?"

If you take away the fact that it was a woman who had done the milkshake dumping/slapping/shrieking, you're left with a very clear picture indeed. Lads, this is the age of equality, you don't owe anyone anything just because they're female, walk away and dissociate from people who think they're owed special privileges because vagina.

If you feel inclined to do so and you think it will improve the situation, explain why you don't think you really want to interact with her anymore, but remember you aren't under any obligation to fix other peoples' bad behaviour. It's not your fault and not really your business. It may take a week or two to pack up in some cases but it's worth it. Encourage others to do the same, rather than sitting there in silent humiliation.

Similar double standards can be found everywhere in society, to borrow from Karen Straughan, imagine if some of the things that are said about men were said about women instead:

Men can do anything women can. And do it better. And do it with one hand tied behind their backs. ~ Barack Obama

When a woman strikes a man, she strikes all of society. ~ Hillary Clinton said exactly that about violence against women.

Women CAN stop false allegations of abuse and rape. ~ The "Men can stop rape" poster campaign is making an appearance on campuses across the US and Canada.

It cannot be assumed that women are bound to be an asset to family life, or that the presence of mothers in families is necessarily a means to social cohesion. ~ This gem, about how unnecessary fathers are, is from UK equalities minister Harriet Harman. She might be forgiven this sentiment if it wasn't grossly inaccurate.

A mall roof caved in yesterday, killing 23 people and injuring more than 100. Tragically 4 men and one child were among the dead. ~ all right, that's from any newspaper story about any tragedy. We hear about women and children because that makes a tragedy more tragic.

I want to see a woman beaten to a bloody pulp with a workboot shoved into her mouth like an apple in the mouth of a pig. ~ Change woman to man and workboot to high heel, and you've got second wave feminist Andrea Dworkin's attitude.

If a man gets kicked in the crotch by a woman, people think it's funny. If a woman gets punched by a man, nobody laughs. These kinds of misandric comments, behaviours and attitudes fall under a whole array of different psychological pathologies, but the only thing that we as men need to remember is to always ask ourselves, would I react any differently if she was a man? It's not an extreme response to dissociate yourself and minimise contact with that person, you have no idea how little of a human being she actually thinks you are - how much of a punching bag or object of fun. Why take that risk, who knows what she's going to do next?

It's not as though there's a shortage of women who don't hate men after all, go hang around with less toxic people! Just remember, never stop asking yourself...

What would I do if she was a man?

eviltwin

Thanks for your reply, sorry you had to go through that, the recognition of male victims of DV has a long way to go, I can emphatise with your frustration but the site does come across as extreme and anti women. I appreciate its probably a work in progress but that's my first impressions.

talkativeone

eviltwin wrote: »

Thanks for your reply, sorry you had to go through that, the recognition of male victims of DV has a long way to go, I can emphatise with your frustration but the site does come across as extreme and anti women.

Can you show me any part of the site that's anti woman?

eviltwin

talkativeone wrote: »

Can you show me any part of the site that's anti woman?

the marriage comment is the main one, given that most marriages don't end in separation its an extreme one. I wonder how the prospective grooms on the Weddings board would take it? Also your mandatory paternity testing, I can't see that going down well with either gender.

GardenMadness

That's actually all nonsense, to be frank. In any event, why is it that the whole tenor of your site and posting is to attack feminists? Is that the only activism you can imagine on behalf of men, or are you doing anything else?

Please don't refer me to, or copy and paste, articles from your website. Please reply in your own words.

talkativeone

eviltwin wrote: »

the marriage comment is the main one, given that most marriages don't end in separation its an extreme one. I wonder how the prospective grooms on the Weddings board would take it? Also your mandatory paternity testing, I can't see that going down well with either gender.

Even that you believe highlighting the actual facts about marriage and divorce is misogynistic says a great deal about these kinds of attitudes in our society today. These are and remain facts, they need to be addressed. Until they are I cannot in good conscience advise anyone to enter into the legally binding contract of marriage.

As for mandatory paternity testing, unfortunately men unknowingly raising the children of other men is a problem which also needs to be addressed. Estimates from various countries are all over the place, from 5% to 30%, but it does happen and there doesn't seem to be a better way of fixing the problem than paternity testing. It's not anti women, it's anti having men unwittingly raise someone else's baby.

talkativeone

GardenMadness wrote: »

That's actually all nonsense, to be frank.

No, it isn't. A feature of MRAs I think you'll find is that shaming tactics don't actually work on us.

GardenMadness wrote: »

In any event, why is it that the whole tenor of your site and posting is to attack feminists? Is that the only activism you can imagine on behalf of men, or are you doing anything else?

If you look at the site you will find a great variety of issues, many of which don't mention feminism at all. For example our Save Our Sons campaign is critical of suicide prevention and response programmes which are for the most part non gendered, while suicide is very much a gendered issue, with men killing themselves at five times the rate of women.

GardenMadness wrote: »

Please don't refer me to, or copy and paste, articles from your website. Please reply in your own words.

Why are you averse to looking at the website?

Maguined

eviltwin wrote: »

the marriage comment is the main one, given that most marriages don't end in separation its an extreme one. I wonder how the prospective grooms on the Weddings board would take it? Also your mandatory paternity testing, I can't see that going down well with either gender.

Why would criticism of the current laws regarding marriage be considered anti-women? The criticism is clearly on the legal system and the application of these laws and not criticism of women. Due to the criticism of the laws the article advices advoiding such circumstance it does not advise to avoid women.

It is the equivalent in the business world that many people criticise the sole trader laws as being risky and so some recommend avoiding this legal status for the alternatives.

eviltwin

talkativeone wrote: »

Even that you believe highlighting the actual facts about marriage and divorce is misogynistic says a great deal about these kinds of attitudes in our society today. These are and remain facts, they need to be addressed. Until they are I cannot in good conscience advise anyone to enter into the legally binding contract of marriage.

As for mandatory paternity testing, unfortunately men unknowingly raising the children of other men is a problem which also needs to be addressed. Estimates from various countries are all over the place, from 5% to 30%, but it does happen and there doesn't seem to be a better way of fixing the problem than paternity testing. It's not anti women, it's anti having men unwittingly raise someone else's baby.

I didn't say it was misognynistic, it is extreme to tell men not to get married. The stats are that most marriages in Ireland are successful, there is a sense on the site that men who marry are mugs. The reality is as an unmarried father your rights are virtually nil, its actually in the majority of cases better for a father to be married and of course, I'm sure most men marry because they are in love and want to be with that person.

Your looking for feedback and I'm giving you my impressions. If you want to be taken seriously you have to have a site that speaks to everyone, that doesn't come across as paranoid and that won't attract the kind of men who give MRA's a bad name.

By the way, have you contacted any TD's about your proposals?

talkativeone

eviltwin wrote: »

I didn't say it was misognynistic, it is extreme to tell men not to get married. The stats are that most marriages in Ireland are successful, there is a sense on the site that men who marry are mugs.

It doesn't matter whether or not you're in the happiest marriage on earth, one partner shouldn't have the ability to completely destroy the other.

eviltwin wrote: »

The reality is as an unmarried father your rights are virtually nil, its actually in the majority of cases better for a father to be married

I've already responded to this point.

eviltwin wrote: »

Your looking for feedback and I'm giving you my impressions. If you want to be taken seriously you have to have a site that speaks to everyone, that doesn't come across as paranoid and that won't attract the kind of men who give MRA's a bad name.

I'm looking to raise awareness myself. Also as previously mentioned, MRA groups police themselves very effectively, actual misogynists, those advocating violence and so on are immediately expelled.

eviltwin wrote: »

By the way, have you contacted any TD's about your proposals?

We're making a list now. Needless to say Senator Bacik isn't on it.

Maguined

eviltwin wrote: »

I didn't say it was misognynistic, it is extreme to tell men not to get married. The stats are that most marriages in Ireland are successful, there is a sense on the site that men who marry are mugs. The reality is as an unmarried father your rights are virtually nil, its actually in the majority of cases better for a father to be married and of course, I'm sure most men marry because they are in love and want to be with that person.

Your looking for feedback and I'm giving you my impressions. If you want to be taken seriously you have to have a site that speaks to everyone, that doesn't come across as paranoid and that won't attract the kind of men who give MRA's a bad name.

By the way, have you contacted any TD's about your proposals?

Just because most marriages are successful does not mean the risks should be totally overlooked. The entire concept of the insurance industry is that for most people things will be fine however you want to mitigate your risk against you personally being the unlucky person. I have travel insurance, I have never lost my bags or had an accident but I want to protect myself against that risk.

Avoiding marraige does not automatically equate to never having a fulfilling long term committed relationship to a partner. You can have a completely successful relationship with someone without having to define it by a legal contract.

I would also argue that the benefits a married has over an unmarried father has are practically negligable so I certainly would not let that ever be a deciding factor in a marriage contract.

GardenMadness

Safest of all, don't have relationships with women and don't have children. You've too much to lose. Sure aren't you grand as you are?

Maguined

GardenMadness wrote: »

Safest of all, don't have relationships with women and don't have children. You've too much to lose. Sure aren't you grand as you are?

I find this a hysterical reaction to a reasonable criticism of the marriage contract.

Do you feel that people are not allowed to criticise laws and seek reform? Or that people are allowed criticised laws but it is unreasonable to advise people to avoid those laws? Or do you feel laws can be criticised but that people should still actively pursue to be bound by those laws?