Shops that have a limit on Debit card transactions

UNP3

So i have recently noticed that a large number of shops will not accept a Visa debit/ laser card unless a minimum spend of ten euro is provided. When i ask for cash back I am told this is not possible.

Now call me crazy but I pay a fee to use my debit facility and it is safer because it means i am not carrying cash ( I know someone could steal my pin etc etc). I asked a person in centra on camden street why this occurs and he tells me its because there is a charge to the company for these transactions. I have also noticed this in the post office as well. Is it not time that these companies suck it up and take the hit as they are providing the service and i have paid to use this service. Who can i complain to so that i can get this stopped or can we just name shame and boycott the companies who are engaging in this practice.

Keep in mind the amount of people and shops that are robbed each week for cash. How many elderly people have had their heads kicked in while trying to get money out of a bank machine ( keep in mind that they are probably forced to take out way more then is required for a transaction because most machines only give fifties). Allowing small transactions on a card would prevent this.

mikemac1

The margin on some items are so thin they may lose money serving you

There are big margins on cans of coke and chocolate but what if you only buy a newspaper or some cigarette papers?

If you bought a box of matches and paid by card the shop is paying a fee on one of the cheapest items they sell

L1011

Debit card fees for merchants are non-negligible and some items have tiny profit margins to begin with. Boycott who you want, they're not going to miss the sale.

sentient_6

The shops should be be reported to the IPSO.

I reported Corrib Oil/Spar chain of service stations in the west and they stopped.

Here is the email i got back from the IPSO when i first asked for confirmation after i read something on here about it:

Dear Mr. ******,

Thank you for your email.

I can confirm that once a business signs a contract with a card processor, to accept card payments, they are obliged to accept all cards under the brands they have signed up for, e.g. Visa, Laser, MasterCard, etc.
In implementing a minimum transaction limit, the retailer is not complying with their terms and conditions for card acceptance.

As part of our work on the National Payments Programme, we seek to stop merchants from acting in this way. Contactless payment cards are now available to all and these provide for low value payments. The contactless technology also provides faster footfall through shops so is of benefit to those merchants who currently enforce a minimum transaction limit for card payments.

We will continue our work on this. In the meantime if you are aware of a specific merchant who is using the limit, feel free to provide their details and we will ensure their card processor contacts them.

I hope that clarifies.

UNP3

Wow good job mate. I never knew there was anyone who could enforce this.

rubadub

sentient_6 wrote: »

The shops should be be reported to the IPSO.

I would rather just see people boycott the shop rather than let the card companies get away with their high fees.

From a previous thread on this matter

rubadub wrote: »

I often walk out of shops with NO minimum charge, as they should be typically more expensive. To work on the same margins as the shop next door (with charges) they obviously have to increase all prices accordingly across the board to cover the charges. So if I am paying cash in effect subsiding the card users.

According a previous poster a €2.50 coffee could be up to 37cent extra in fees. I wonder if the OP would just prefer to pay that extra, or do they expect cash payers to subsidise the difference.

There could be a different marketing strategy to doing it. Like charge €2.87 across the board, and give the cash payers a "free" biscuit or something.

UNP3

So you like to see old people get robbed for there cash while stood in the icy rain.

At the end of the day those of us who have the card have paid to use the card. They have signed up to provide the service and I dont care to much how they pay for it as long as i can avail of it. I am sure it costs every shop money to store all that cash they have in bank accounts (which have even higher fees) as well as to hire security companies to collect and deliver coin plus the insurance company who has to cover this store in the event of armed robbery, The alarm company to protect this money, the cctv to make sure the person is not stealing from the till but of course the notes are never refused for costing the store to much because they are legal tender. In fact if they only accepted cars they would probably start to turn a profit.

allthedoyles

You can go to Tesco and buy a box of matches by card , and many other shops too.
Locally to me , SV/Centra have a minimum spend of €10 , and I now shop elsewhere.
I know they won't miss my trade , but it is unfair that they do this in my opinion.
Surely if these supermarkets look at the average spend , they would find that sales in excess of €10 would far out-weigh the sales of less that €10.

If I knew they were breaking the terms and conditions of their service provider , I would report them.

L1011

UNP3 wrote: »

I am sure it costs every shop money to store all that cash they have in bank accounts

Where, exactly, do you think they get the money from the card payments transferred to?

UNP3

Using a card you can wirelessly transfer money to another account. It avoids handling the cash. Straight away that cuts out the need for cash collections or risking a staff members safety carrying money to a bank.

rubadub

UNP3 wrote: »

So you like to see old people get robbed for there cash while stood in the icy rain.

Yes, I love it, in fact I usually go over and give the granny a few kicks :rolleyes:

This emotive nonsense is cringeworthy.

UNP3 wrote: »

In fact if they only accepted cars they would probably start to turn a profit.

I don't think I have seen any retailers here who would agree. Here are some charges they have.

sandin wrote: »

Visa Debit / Mastercard debit & Laser are charged in most cases a single transaction fee of 12c-30c depending on your volume.

Credit cards are charged at 1% - 1.75% depending on your volume.

Any retailer paying over 1.75% needs to change.


NFC cards will cut all these minimums out as certain benefits of visa/mastercard such as insurance won't apply to purchases under €20 and therefore transaction using NFC technology will cost the retailer less than 10c and the time taken for a transaction will be a couple of seconds.

BTW - a retailer will pay 0.45% for lodging cash

UNP3

Again i put it to you how many small shops are paying for companies like brinks to transport money, cctv for security, The cost to purchase coin from a bank, cash alarm systems etc etc. Your payng for all that when you buy your biscuits and the retailer is still profiting somehow.

In taking this service on as is pointed out in the IPSO quote these companies have agreed that they can provide the service, they believe that having this facility will increase there profits. They cant just provide half a service because it suits them. They knew the terms and conditions when they took on the service.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

UNP3 wrote: »

Again i put it to you how many small shops are paying for companies like brinks to transport money, cctv for security, The cost to purchase coin from a bank, cash alarm systems etc etc. Your payng for all that when you buy your biscuits and the retailer is still profiting somehow.

In taking this service on as is pointed out in the IPSO quote these companies have agreed that they can provide the service, they believe that having this facility will increase there profits. They cant just provide half a service because it suits them. They knew the terms and conditions when they took on the service.

Correct, but cash has to be lodged daily regardless of the amount. They will always have cash.Security is require anyway.
Bottom line is, if you are aggrieved them report the retailer. Personally I would go and shop elsewhere. But then again I'd never dream of using a card for something below €20.

Shelflife

The trouble is unp3 is that some people tear the arse of it and spoil it for everyone. We have a €5 limit which we brought it after people started trying to buy a stamp (one 60c) with a card, we don't make any money on stamps and only provide them as a service.

we started getting people getting 1 pack of chewing gum and wanting cash back.

Btw the min spend in the Post Office is €5.

I personally wouldn't use my card for less than €20 either.

UNP3

I am guessing you have not experienced going to a shop armed with your last 7 euro stuck in your bank and wanted to purchase something. I could go to the bank but I work nine to five and the archaic local bank closes for lunch.

L1011

UNP3 wrote: »

I am guessing you have not experienced going to a shop armed with your last 7 euro stuck in your bank and wanted to purchase something. I could go to the bank but I work nine to five and the archaic local bank closes for lunch.

Get it out when its still above €10 then. You are going to cost the retailer money realistically - why would they want your business?

Option 2 is eat somewhere that processes a huge volume of card transactions and has hence got a preferential rate (and has higher margins to boot), e.g. McDonalds.

Frynge

MYOB wrote: »

Debit card fees for merchants are non-negligible and some items have tiny profit margins to begin with. Boycott who you want, they're not going to miss the sale.

That is not true at all. A company called streamline are after entering the irish market (subsidery of world pay) and they are offering massively reduced charges. We have reduced our visa debit charges by 75% and our Visa corporate rate from 3.75% to 1.75%.

The likes of tesco's, dunes and super value would be paying a lot less than you local newsagent.

L1011

Frynge wrote: »

That is not true at all. A company called streamline are after entering the irish market (subsidery of world pay) and they are offering massively reduced charges. We have reduced our visa debit charges by 75% and our Visa corporate rate from 3.75% to 1.75%.

The likes of tesco's, dunes and super value would be paying a lot less than you local newsagent.

Non negligible. Not non-negotiable.

At least I assume that's what you're replying to as otherwise your post still doesn't make much sense - 1.75% is still non-negligible.

Frynge

MYOB wrote: »

Non negligible. Not non-negotiable.

At least I assume that's what you're replying to as otherwise your post still doesn't make much sense - 1.75% is still non-negligible.

Whoops!

Mech1

UNP3 wrote: »

I am guessing you have not experienced going to a shop armed with your last 7 euro stuck in your bank and wanted to purchase something. I could go to the bank but I work nine to five and the archaic local bank closes for lunch.

Sorry UNP3 but there is no way for anyone in retail to be sympathetic to the point of, catering specially for, someone with the money management skills that you suggest.

cerastes

Tbh, I can see how Mcdonalds could have more transactions (lots of small transactions), I cant see how chains of supermarkets or convenience stores dont have that purchasing power also, given the number of transactions they have anyway.

I've come up against this recently a few times, I thought it might be the case that I could use my card for any transaction and not be forced to make a minimum spend but wasnt fully sure. Normally, I'd prefer have cash for small transactions, but you can get stuck from time to time.

For the amount of times Ive done this (less than a hand full) the amount of times I've spent my money in the store, I consider outweighs the inconvenience to them. It does seem more like a shop rule applied to upsell and most people wont bother with questioning it. In one shop Ive found some staff will sell me items and allow me purchase items under the limit and others wont.

L1011

cerastes wrote: »

Tbh, I can see how Mcdonalds could have more transactions (lots of small transactions), I cant see how chains of supermarkets or convenience stores dont have that purchasing power also, given the number of transactions they have anyway.

With a few exceptions, convenience stores are generally owned by someone who operates a single or a small number of stores in a very loose alliance with the other stores under the same brand - they're not the hugely tight franchise with many master-franchiser owned stores setup that McDonalds is. This is why one often has a minimum and the other one doesn't.

They also nearly always have ATMs in store these days - McDonalds don't.

wmpdd3

I usually wouldn't dream of using my card for anything less than €20, but the odd time I do totally forget that I have no cash on me and I wouldn't mind a €0.50 charge at all, other than that you just end up buying stuff you don't need just to bump up the transaction.

allthedoyles

Its one thing I will not do , is end up buying stuff I don't need to bump up a transaction , and I did walk from local supermarket recently , after check-out told me , I had to spend a tenner .
I did have more than a tenner in card , but did not need this value of goods .

If I had €1000 in savings account and €9 in Debit card account , and was on way home from work , wanting to buy 4 cans of Bud , I will now go to outlet that allows me spend less than €10.

So in my case , local outlets that make it compulsory to spend a tenner have lost my custom completely , and I don't even contemplate going to them nowadays .

So in my opinion , the retailer is losing out over this ruling .

Mech1

allthedoyles wrote: »

Its one thing I will not do , is end up buying stuff I don't need to bump up a transaction , and I did walk from local supermarket recently , after check-out told me , I had to spend a tenner .
I did have more than a tenner in card , but did not need this value of goods .

If I had €1000 in savings account and €9 in Debit card account , and was on way home from work , wanting to buy 4 cans of Bud , I will now go to outlet that allows me spend less than €10.

So in my case , local outlets that make it compulsory to spend a tenner have lost my custom completely , and I don't even contemplate going to them nowadays .

So in my opinion , the retailer is losing out over this ruling .

I hate to have to wait behind people buying items on card transactions that take double the time at least to process than the cash transaction im waiting to do. Especially as most of these card transactions in my local offy are for less than €20, and im normally spending more cash. Im a smoker so €9.50 smokes plus maybe €15 on cans.

I keep the card transactions for twice a week fuel in the jeep and major purchases.

JCX BXC

Hehe I went into McDonalds on saturday, but I had no cash so I bought a coffee with my card. Then I seen a donut and I said I'd like that, so I used my card. I then got a text off my brother to get him a donut, so Naturally I used my card.
As I have an AIB 2nd level account, I have no transaction fees, but the card is only chip+pin. So I was charged nothing (in fees) where as I'd say they were.

Coffee=€2.00
Donut=€1.00
Face on the staff= Priceless

Delta2113

"I can confirm that once a business signs a contract with a card processor, to accept card payments, they are obliged to accept all cards under the brands they have signed up for, e.g. Visa, Laser, MasterCard, etc.
In implementing a minimum transaction limit, the retailer is not complying with their terms and conditions for card acceptance."

So we should just keep reporting each shop we come across?

I never had a Laser card and so far I have never used my PTSB Debit Card - the minumum spend puts me off.

I did use my credit card in Supervalu at the automatic check out for only €4 or so.

cerastes

Carnacalla wrote: »

Hehe I went into McDonalds on saturday, but I had no cash so I bought a coffee with my card. Then I seen a donut and I said I'd like that, so I used my card. I then got a text off my brother to get him a donut, so Naturally I used my card.
As I have an AIB 2nd level account, I have no transaction fees, but the card is only chip+pin. So I was charged nothing (in fees) where as I'd say they were.

Coffee=€2.00
Donut=€1.00
Face on the staff= Priceless

why would the staff care? Id guess staff in retailers that implement their own minimum spend policy, management verse staff in applying their rule.

Mech1 wrote: »

I hate to have to wait behind people buying items on card transactions that take double the time at least to process than the cash transaction im waiting to do. Especially as most of these card transactions in my local offy are for less than €20, and im normally spending more cash. Im a smoker so €9.50 smokes plus maybe €15 on cans.

I keep the card transactions for twice a week fuel in the jeep and major purchases.

Cant see how they are taking any longer than someone buying more or even only slightly more and paying with their card?

ruthy_2504

Coming from a family who own a small convenience shop in the West of Ireland, charges imposed on the merchant to process card transactions is another example of big companies squeezing more and more out of the smaĺl guys.

How is a shop supposed to absorb transactions that cost more to process than the profit on the items being sold? Where does the profit come from then to pay light and heat, insurance, rates, wages etc?

Absolutely unsustainable, and in 10 years time when there are no convenience stores left and you have to go to a supermarket for a single litre of milk we'll all wonder why.

allthedoyles

ruthy_2504 wrote: »

Coming from a family who own a small convenience shop in the West of Ireland, charges imposed on the merchant to process card transactions is another example of big companies squeezing more and more out of the smaĺl guys.

How is a shop supposed to absorb transactions that cost more to process than the profit on the items being sold? Where does the profit come from then to pay light and heat, insurance, rates, wages etc?

Absolutely unsustainable, and in 10 years time when there are no convenience stores left and you have to go to a supermarket for a single litre of milk we'll all wonder why.

If the small convenience shop continues to offer an inferior service to customers , they will find themselves unsustainable , and will have no-one else to blame other than themselves .

sparky63

My Visa debit card is with AIB. I have just looked at there terms and conditions for AIB Merchant Services and i quote from their site,

"Can I set a minimum transaction value?"
"No, you may not set any minimum limit on credit and debit card transactions."

Here's the link
http://www.aibms.com/accepting-card-payments/faqs/

I cant understand why posters are saying that they wouldn't dream of using there card for less than 10 or 20 euro or the poster that quoted "why would they want your business" and the post on i hate to have to wait on card transactions as i spend more in cash. There's a lot of sugar pedestals on this site. Honestly how people can be brain washed and led down a path that will ultimately only suit retailers.

As we move closer to a cashless society, what next. Minimum spend is 20 or 50 euro.

sparky63

Mech1 wrote: »

Sorry UNP3 but there is no way for anyone in retail to be sympathetic to the point of, catering specially for, someone with the money management skills that you suggest.

Kind of says it all. :eek:

Bepolite

Oh this old chestnut again.

Noting I like more than being stuck behind the moron who get to the till without being ready to pay, plops out a card to pay for his Mars Bar, then can't quite remember the pin, then asks for a receipt and gets upset because it's 22c for a bag.

Some people really shouldn't be allowed out of the house.

Mint Aero

It's a load of hocus pocus bolloxology. See I just posted this. Was I charged a transaction fee? Geeer up our da ya dirty bank.

Red Crow

I understand the minimum limit as people abuse the service. I know of one company that has completely stopped accepting debt cards as a result of the high fees associated with debit cards.

Tesco can afford to let people spend 1c and put it on their card as they can agree a small % with VISA but it has the potential to put local shops out of business if enough people abuse the service.

toddunctious

We don't have a terminal where I work cause most transactions are 2-3 euro
So cash only
Would it be possible to get a terminal and only accept contact less payments to avail of the lower fee ?

sparky63

Bepolite wrote: »

Oh this old chestnut again.

Noting I like more than being stuck behind the moron who get to the till without being ready to pay, plops out a card to pay for his Mars Bar, then can't quite remember the pin, then asks for a receipt and gets upset because it's 22c for a bag.

Some people really shouldn't be allowed out of the house.

And that makes them a moron.:(i consider myself as busy as the person in front of me and as patient and tolerant as the person behind me. Nothing more, lots of us forget things and a receipt is a reasonable request for a purchase. Actually, i stand corrected but i think its a law to be provided with a receipt. Although i have to agree on your point of them getting upset regarding the 22c for the bag. But to be honest, its a bit of a lame argument in support of the minimum cost being imposed by some retailers.

Nody

This argument reminds me of the people complaining about Ebay were people would sell DVDs for 1c and put the cost on the shipping cost instead to avoid paying money to Ebay being "unfair" because that was not the real postage cost (well duh, that was the whole point to lower the price by avoiding paying Ebay a percentage of sale). Personally I'll pick a shop with a bit of cop on with minimum spend who're not going to raise their prices over the board to compensate for people's lack of understanding of business realities (you as a customer will ALWAYS pay the cost) over the once with out who're charging me the CC fee for cash if I'm given a choice.

rubadub

UNP3 wrote: »

they believe that having this facility will increase there profits. .

They may have thought this, and then discovered they were getting more small transactions than they expected and so it was not profitable. It can also annoy cash paying customers who are forced to subsidise the card users.

cerastes wrote: »

In one shop Ive found some staff will sell me items and allow me purchase items under the limit and others wont.

It could depend on the item, if the profits more than cover the fees I expect they might allow it, if the system is not hardcoded to refuse the sale somehow. e.g. shops make little profit on cigarettes but high profit on bars. Some shops might have items excluded from min spends, you will see tesco restrict the use of vouchers on many presumably low profit items.

It reminds me of amazon "free delivery", of course its not free, its included in the price. Sometimes I get free delivery on low weight items which are under the £25 limit, I presume this is since the postage would be low so they are covered.

UNP3 wrote: »

Again i put it to you how many small shops are paying for companies like brinks to transport money, cctv for security, The cost to purchase coin from a bank, cash alarm systems etc etc. Your payng for all that when you buy your biscuits and the retailer is still profiting somehow.

In taking this service on as is pointed out in the IPSO quote these companies have agreed that they can provide the service, they believe that having this facility will increase there profits. They cant just provide half a service because it suits them. They knew the terms and conditions when they took on the service.

sparky63 wrote: »

As we move closer to a cashless society, what next. Minimum spend is 20 or 50 euro.

There could be government intervention if they were to get rid of currency. I expect more competition where they are all a % rather than the single charge, so the retailers could pick the company they want.

UNP3

Have you ever stood behind the old woman who is surprised by the sudden need to pay for a product only to fish through her purse for change all the while talking to the shop person about last weeks Saturday night take away and her sons Takes just as long really.

I am sure your a busy guy but I am also busy and don't want to spend my time looking for a bank machine when I have a means of payment in my hand. If the retailer loses money don't offer the service. People keep pointing out that the terms clearly state the card must be accepted. It's not about time or cost
To the retailer, it's a facility I have that they offer. Could you imagine if the retailer said that if we wanted to but a lotto ticket we had to buy a minimum of three lines because anything less costs them money. We would all laugh and buy are tickets in super valu.

rubadub

UNP3 wrote: »

If the retailer loses money don't offer the service. People keep pointing out that the terms clearly state the card must be accepted.

If people keep buying tiny amounts then you will find few places will have the service. Its in peoples interest to understand how these sneakily hidden charges are in place, they should have more of an issue with the sneaky card companies than the retailer who simply wants to make profit on each & every sale.

I buy from several shops repeatedly online and never use paypal even though its more convenient and costs ME the same. My reasoning is that I want the shop to be as profitable as it can, so it will survive and be able to offer me good prices. I do not want all the item costs increase to cover paypals fees.

If my local takeaway did "free delivery", I would not be in the place ordering ordering and then thinking "hey, its free delivery, sure why wait, I'll head home and just let them deliver". I don't want them closing down.

UNP3 wrote: »

Could you imagine if the retailer said that if we wanted to but a lotto ticket we had to buy a minimum of three lines because anything less costs them money. We would all laugh and buy are tickets in super valu.

I wouldn't laugh, I'd be saying the retailer is smart and the lottery are the ones to have an issue with.

Lottery tickets are presumably low profit, tesco do not allow vouchers to be used on them.

* Sorry, you cannot use your vouchers to purchase tobacco, prescription medicines, lottery products, infant formulae milk.

L1011

rubadub wrote: »

Lottery tickets are presumably low profit, tesco do not allow vouchers to be used on them.

They are (very) low profit, but there's separate rules about incentivising sale of certain items, lottery tickets are one of them, hence you can't either get or use loyalty points on them. Baby formula is certainly not a low profit item, for instance.

In the case of lotto tickets I think its an interepretation of the original Act that brought the National Lottery in which requires that all tickets are sold at the same price to everyone - vouchers are not cash; tobacco is one of the various Health Promotion Acts and so on.

wmpdd3

There at WHO guide lines on the promotion of baby formula that prohibits the use of store issued vouchers against it.

The local spar used to have a minimum spend, now it just doesn't have a visa machine.

No idea why they had one in the first place, the didn't sell petrol etc. and there's a bank machine outside the door.

boardzz

They are not allowed to look for a minimum transaction account but they are allowed to charge a fee for card transactions.
Why don't shops just ask for a fee to use a card?

P. Breathnach

UNP3 wrote: »

Have you ever stood behind the old woman who is surprised by the sudden need to pay for a product ...

It's not just old people who are like that, and not only women.

weisses

Problem with me is that sometimes you run out of cash and driving to an ATM and then back to my local shop is at least 30 minutes extra travel

Saying you wont use your card for transactions under 20 euro is all good when there are plenty of ATM's to go to before shopping

galwayjohn89

Was in America for three weeks. Never touched cash. Everything on the card. Anything under $10 no signature just a swipe. So much faster than flaffing about with cash. I hope it's like that in Ireland soon. I find McDonalds is far quicker to pay by contactless card than cash.

L1011

Vuzuggu wrote: »

Anything under $10 no signature just a swipe. So much faster than flaffing about with cash. I hope it's like that in Ireland soon.

It won't be. The US has been a laggard in getting chip and pin but its coming; so no more swipe and run.

Contactless is faster and more reliable than swiping, once enough retailers get it - or even realise they already have it in some cases.

OwaynOTT

A shop that use to be my local shop had no transactions under a tanner policy.
I would be in there two to three times a week for stuff forgotten in the shop, petrol, bakery stuff and the deli counter.
I was going there on and off over three years and never once would they let me use my laser for under a tenner. That the other side with shops taken advantage of it, making you spend up to a tenner when you only wanted milk bread and some ham which might have came to €7.
They knew I wouldn't leave it and drive into town but at the same time I stopped going to the unless I had to.
Some shops in Ireland don't what to do business.
A gift shop in Clare wouldn't take my card for €9.50 as they had a €10 policy. The shop is never busy but she wouldn't budge on the policy. Walked out and went to glitzy bitz, same thing cheaper and no issue with card.
I understand the charges on the card but sometimes there should be a little flexibility for the shops.

Riamfada

Can the shop just remove the invitation to treat?

Beano

boardzz wrote: »

They are not allowed to look for a minimum transaction account but they are allowed to charge a fee for card transactions.
Why don't shops just ask for a fee to use a card?

That would be gas. could you imagine the number of people who would hop on the outrage bus?