Anyone here learning or have learned a new language?

Alun

bodice ripper wrote: »

Well, it's been my experience. Sometimes they don't mock you, but they will immediately reply in English. They are very proud of their ability to speak English, and confident that it is better than your Dutch. They are right. They seem happy to tell you stuff about Dutch and how you should learn it, but too impatient to be the one you speak it with. I don't blame them.

I lived there for 13 years, and whilst in the beginning this happens, you just have to stick with it and insist on speaking Dutch.

I find the standard of English is excellent here, but very narrow in terms of vocabulary. I suspect that they speak English as they would Dutch, and that Dutch isn't heavy with descriptive phrases. They also seem to believe they speak English without a noticible Dutch accent. They are wrong.

I agree, much is made of how the Dutch all speak "perfect" English, but this is far from the truth. They may all have a smattering and be able to give you directions on the street, and in a professional environment, they may be able to hold a conversation on a topic in their field, but outside of that they often flounder. The Dutch way of speaking English can be spotted a mile away, not only from the accent, but their whole way of constructing sentences.

In my opinion the very best English speakers in Europe are the Scandinavians by a very large margin. I've learnt Swedish (through Dutch!) and their sentence structure matches English much better than either Dutch or German, which I think helps.

Alun

denhaagenite wrote: »

Rule No. 2: Don't pay too much attention to their blab about dialects. It usually equates to nothing more than an accent and a couple of colloquialisms, eg Toffe in Limburg and Leuk in Brabant.

I disagree. I lived in Brabant (Veldhoven) for a good while and picked up the accent / dialect there but Limburgs is a whole different ballgame!! Limburgers still have a pretty strong accent, and use some unique colloquialisms when speaking with other Dutch, but if you hear them talking amongst themselves it's almost a different language altogether. I had a work colleague from Limburg and when he called his girlfriend on the phone he had no need to keep his voice down as nobody in the rest of the office could understand a word he was saying. The further south you get in Limburg, especially small villages close to the German border, the worse it gets.

Legs.Eleven

Could it be said that most languages fall short when it comes to vocabulary compared to English? I'm also very conscious of it teaching English to Spaniards and trying to give them an incentive to use a more diverse range of adjectives, for example, when they wouldn't in their own language. You give them a synonym for the a word they already know and they don't see the point in using it when they already know how to say it (and they're required to for the writing part of the exam they're doing - it'd get them extra marks). I think English has the biggest vocab of any language.

Hilly Bill

English , i'll get the hang of it eventually.

Alun

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Could it be said that most languages fall short when it comes to vocabulary compared to English? I'm also very conscious of it teaching English to Spaniards and trying to give them an incentive to use a more diverse range of adjectives, for example, when they wouldn't in their own language. You give them a synonym for the a word they already know and they don't see the point in using it when they already know how to say it (and they're required to for the writing part of the exam they're doing - it'd get them extra marks). I think English has the biggest vocab of any language.

I think that's true. You only have to look at the sheer size of the full edition of the OED, compared, for example, with the Grosse Duden (German) or the "Dikke" Van Dale (Dutch) to see the difference.

Legs.Eleven

Alun wrote: »

I think that's true. You only have to look at the sheer size of the full edition of the OED, compared, for example, with the Grosse Duden (German) or the "Dikke" Van Dale (Dutch) to see the difference.

I think that's what they base it on although I think the OED are less strict about what words they let in to the dictionaries than the Real Academia Espanola, for example.

denhaagenite

Alun wrote: »

I disagree. I lived in Brabant (Veldhoven) for a good while and picked up the accent / dialect there but Limburgs is a whole different ballgame!! Limburgers still have a pretty strong accent, and use some unique colloquialisms when speaking with other Dutch, but if you hear them talking amongst themselves it's almost a different language altogether. I had a work colleague from Limburg and when he called his girlfriend on the phone he had no need to keep his voice down as nobody in the rest of the office could understand a word he was saying. The further south you get in Limburg, especially small villages close to the German border, the worse it gets.

Exactly, accent and colloquialism- like Donegal or Cavan

I've been in Zuid- Holland for 2 years and Brabant (Strijp) for almost 5 so my accent is very flat and non- regional. I go to school in Maastricht and it takes some getting used to Limburgs but it's not really that bad if you hear it all the time, just takes getting used to.

Alun

denhaagenite wrote: »

Exactly, accent and colloquialism- like Donegal or Cavan

I've been in Zuid- Holland for 2 years and Brabant (Strijp) for almost 5 so my accent is very flat and non- regional. I go to school in Maastricht and it takes some getting used to Limburgs but it's not really that bad if you hear it all the time, just takes getting used to.

I have a friend from Sittard, and I defy you to understand him when he's speaking at full tilt with someone from the same area. Like I said, when they catch on to the fact that you're not from around there they switch to as normal Dutch as they can, but still heavily accented.

BTW I lived in Veldhoven for 13 years (and Germany for 7 before that), and spoke Dutch fluently, running my own business there, so I do have some experience of the language.

yellowlabrador

Vlaanderen is also divided by many dialects. When you think of it, the town are not all that distant from each other, but they are barely understandable 30 miles apart. I grew up in Antwerp and am fluent in Aaantwarppssss. It is a port and there is a strong French and spanish influence.

For you Dutch speakers

Alun

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Vlaanderen is also divided by many dialects. When you think of it, the town are not all that distant from each other, but they are barely understandable 30 miles apart.

That's what got me about Limburgs too .. I lived in Veldhoven ,near Eindhoven, and yet in Weert only about 35-40km away it was like being in another country, but got worse from then on. The small towns in the narrowest bit of the Limburg 'peninsula' such as Sittard are the worst as there are lots of German influences too. Maastricht is mild by comparison as it's a bit more cosmopolitan.

Alun

Found this on Youtube ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHmcVjMzS-I

playedalive

czechlin wrote: »

Hola! Me gusta mucho francés, pero tengo muchos amigos españoles, es por eso que aprendo español.

Ya. Cuando tienes mucho contacto con el idioma, lo controlas mejor. Con mucho español en mi entorno, lo aprendí superbien.:)

(When you've a lot of contact with the language, it comes to you a lot better. Having had a lot of Spanish around me, I learned it really well)

On a personal note: Apart from English, I speak Spanish, French and Irish. I always loved languages since a young age. For me, it's a case of curiousity and a liking towards the culture and the language. Getting immersed in it is definitely important in any way possible (language exchanges, time abroad, etc)

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I have a lot of admiration for anyone who successfully learns a language as alien as Japanese or Korean, trying to learn Korean made me feel like the child sitting in the corner with a dunce cap on his head.

denhaagenite

Alun wrote: »

Found this on Youtube ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHmcVjMzS-I

I'm not getting into a competition about who knows Dutch better because I'm 100% sure I'll lose..... but these all sound like accents to me. Think about the differences between Kerry and Fermanagh, we don't call those dialects, we call them accents. Aswell as that, I get the feeling that these are quite old recordings, probably taken to preserve the little diversity there is left in different ways of speaking a language, especially since there is also so much English/ French/ German/ Arabic spoken here, besides the countless other minority languages. It happens in every country due to mass media. I know TG4 is always at that kind of stuff aswell.

I've been around the South quite a lot, Venlo Sittard, Kerkrade, Nederweert and also have a lot of friends from that region (and Zeeland), maybe I have picked up more Limburgs than I realise. I haven't been further North than Amsterdam yet, but will be visiting in June sometime so will have a listen out for new sounds then.

One thing that amuses me slightly is through habit and trying to get the grammar right in Dutch, I sometimes find myself speaking English in a Dutch way. If someone tells me something and I'm surprised I say "Oh so?" instead of "Really?". If I think of another example I'll add it, my mind is blank at the minute.

gurl88

denhaagenite wrote: »

but these all sound like accents to me...

These are all dialects, except for Fries, which is considered an actual language (don't ask me why...Frisians are very stubborn about that). Dialects in the Netherlands can vary from town to town and are varieties on the Dutch language. On top of that, regions have their own accents (difference in pronunciation of the same word). For instance, in the southern provinces there is the 'soft g' which is more like the Flemish sound than the Dutch more guttural g sound in the rest of the country.

feargale

gurl88 wrote: »

Something not so much language related but perhaps more an Ireland thing is the way you greet eachother. I'm still amazed about how everybody asks how you are doing, but isn't expecting an answer to the question. Why not simply say 'Hello' or 'Good morning' instead?

Saying good morning when it's raining cats and dogs is a bit like telling the widow at a funeral to have a nice day.

gurl88

Very true! I think the 'Hello' suggestion would do better in those kind of situations

It just strikes me that people ask the question without being genuinely interested in the answer. To me that's almost a bit rude, though I find the Irish in general very friendly and decent.

feargale

gurl88 wrote: »

Very true! I think the 'Hello' suggestion would do better in those kind of situations

It just strikes me that people ask the question without being genuinely interested in the answer. To me that's almost a bit rude, though I find the Irish in general very friendly and decent.

When I was taught the basic courtesies at school many years ago, we were told upon being introduced for the first time to someone that the appropriate greeting was " how do you do?" and the appropriate response from the other person was also " how do you do?" There's nothing Irish about that. It's Barbara Cartland standard, how English dukes and archbishops do it. And nobody responds that they're good, bad or dying. In Ireland it's more likely to be " how's she cuttin'?"

Micky Dolenz

gurl88 wrote: »

Very true! I think the 'Hello' suggestion would do better in those kind of situations

It just strikes me that people ask the question without being genuinely interested in the answer. To me that's almost a bit rude, though I find the Irish in general very friendly and decent.

The Italians do it, come stai (how are you) e come va (whats up)The answer is nearly always bene.

French do the whole Ça va buzz.

While I don't think it's an exclusive Irish thing, to say how are you, I do believe we have many many ways of asking and responding.

If I greet a friend with "what's the craic?" I'm not looking for a one word generic response.

OnTheCouch

Alun wrote: »

I lived there for 13 years, and whilst in the beginning this happens, you just have to stick with it and insist on speaking Dutch.

I agree, much is made of how the Dutch all speak "perfect" English, but this is far from the truth. They may all have a smattering and be able to give you directions on the street, and in a professional environment, they may be able to hold a conversation on a topic in their field, but outside of that they often flounder. The Dutch way of speaking English can be spotted a mile away, not only from the accent, but their whole way of constructing sentences.

In my opinion the very best English speakers in Europe are the Scandinavians by a very large margin. I've learnt Swedish (through Dutch!) and their sentence structure matches English much better than either Dutch or German, which I think helps.

Absolutely, there seems to be an opinion among people that Dutch all speak English perfectly. This is anything but the case in my opinion. They may be able to speak it better than we can speak Dutch, but they are by no means flawless themselves. As Alun points out, they have a very 'foreign' way of speaking which does not resemble the way Anglophones construct sentences. There may be the odd one who is exceptional, but for the most part they are competent without being brilliant linguistically. I sometimes wonder if this attitude comes from foreigners or a misperception by the Dutch themselves, although I do not know enough of the latter people personally to really comment here.

I do recall at least two occasions where Germans (who admittedly did have a very proficient level in the language), attempted to correct my what they believed to be grammar mistakes and seemed to take considerable offence when I then pointed out that their own English, whilst being excellent, was not quite as good as they thought it was.

Now I do not want to tar all Germans with the same brush, it just so happens that the two people who did a similar thing happened to come from the same country, but I have sometimes noticed a slight arrogance in some foreigners when speaking English, as if they believe themselves to be more proficient than natives even.

To go back to what Alun was saying, the best non-native speakers in my experience are the Danes and the Icelanders. Apart from the odd exception, you can tell very quickly that most others are foreign when they open their mouths. Now while it may be true that English is easier to pick up than many other languages, because of the prevalence of American English in global media, similar verbs and so on, to really master prepositions, phrasal verbs and the like is somewhat challenging to say the least. Plus there are nearly a million words in the language for a reason, obviously the average person uses about one percent of these, but still.

So I wonder where this perception comes from that English is so much easier than other languages. One theory I have is that after working in many foreign companies over the years, I have noticed an interesting phenomenon. English is nearly always the common language in these environments, plus in similar situations like Erasmus exchanges and so on. However, what is interesting is that there is frequently no or scant native speakers present. If I learn French, the opportunities I do get to speak the language will nearly always be with a native speaker, same with Italian, German and so on. English on the other hand tends to serve as a common link between many non-native speakers, so a Chinese person will speak English with a Pole, who will speak English to a Spaniard, who will speak English to a Hungarian etc etc. So while I (assuming native speakers use a correct version of their own language), get to hear the way the language should be used, many non-natives pick up a different way of speaking English from other foreigners.

The result of this is that a third 'foreign' version of English has emerged, other than school-taught English and the way it is spoken by natives. For obvious reasons this is a far more accessible and comprehensible version, with limited vocabulary, slang and expressions compared to the other two. But at the same time more than enough to get by in every-day conversation. You often get business jargon thrown in as well, which leads to quite an unusual 'hybrid-style' language being used. This tends to be generally based around American as opposed to British English, but this is for obvious reasons. I have spoken to some people about this occurrence and there definitely seems to be some truth to it.

Anyway, to finish off this rather long-winded post, I think many foreigners become completely fluent in this hybrid English, due to mainly speaking the language with other foreigners and then believe their own level to be better than it actually is in reality.

Alun

That rings a lot of bells with me I must say.

While in the Netherlands I did a stint working as an IT contractor at Fuji, a Japanese company obviously, where the top management were all Japanese, but the majority of the rest of the work force was Dutch, but the working language was English. I thought initially that my being English would give me an advantage, and so did the company I was working for at the time, but actually it was a hindrance. I kept on getting technical documents returned to me after review for being 'too complicated', which in real terms meant any sentence more than half a dozen words long, or containing more than one clause, and I was effectively forced to reduce my writing to a level that would have been more appropriate for a 10 year old. The same kind of thing happened, albeit to a lesser degree, at many other MNC's, mostly American.

As a result, I found that when I moved here, not only did I actually struggle sometimes to form complex sentences, both in speech and in writing, but even when speaking my mother tongue, many people here thought I was either German or Dutch!! It took quite a while to recover my fluency again.

Micky Dolenz

Alun wrote: »

That rings a lot of bells with me I must say.

While in the Netherlands I did a stint working as an IT contractor at Fuji, a Japanese company obviously, where the top management were all Japanese, but the majority of the rest of the work force was Dutch, but the working language was English. I thought initially that my being English would give me an advantage, and so did the company I was working for at the time, but actually it was a hindrance. I kept on getting technical documents returned to me after review for being 'too complicated', which in real terms meant any sentence more than half a dozen words long, or containing more than one clause, and I was effectively forced to reduce my writing to a level that would have been more appropriate for a 10 year old. The same kind of thing happened, albeit to a lesser degree, at many other MNC's, mostly American.

As a result, I found that when I moved here, not only did I actually struggle sometimes to form complex sentences, both in speech and in writing, but even when speaking my mother tongue, many people here thought I was either German or Dutch!! It took quite a while to recover my fluency again.

I was once told to avoid "Dumbing down my English". I didn't know what that really meant at the time. I get it now though.