The Media Treatment of Joe Schmidt

Zeebs

Is anyone else absolutely disgusted by how some elements of the media have treated Joe Schmidt? Ireland have just gone from having their worst ever 6 nations to winning it under Schmidt while missing a number of Lions players and he is still being grilled in the media about having a 'Leinster bias' and being questioned about the non selection of Munster players.

Its shameful that Schmidt has been so hounded by certain reporters that he even needs to come out with comments like this:

“For me, I select Irish players. If people want to differentiate, if people want to divide that provincially, that’s their prerogative,” he said. “But, as a group, we’re just trying to select the Irish national team. If people are going to be distracted by provincial loyalties, then that is something that is certainly not happening within the group.

“I think there has been a super unity within the group. It is probably always disappointing to get criticised. I can totally understand the perception. But, what I can totally guarantee is that we have all the stats, we watch all the games and we try to do as much homework as we possibly can.”

I just find the whole affair so strange. You might understand it if Schmidt had done badly but seeing as he won the competition its even more peculiar. I struggle to find one player from Munster who can legitimately be felt hard done by. Certainly not to the extent that media reporters should be levelling accusations of bias towards the national coach.

Maybe I am being dramatic here but it seems like there are elements in the media that are essentially trying to bully Schmidt into selecting their province's players.

who_me

Grilled? Hounded? Bullied?

What was the question asked? You only quote his response.

Zeebs

who_me wrote: »

Grilled? Hounded? Bullied?

What was the question asked? You only quote his response.

Well for example at almost every press conference there was a woman with a Cork accent who would always starts off the press conference by asking Schmidt about the non selection of Munster players.

You've had former Munster players openly criticize his non selection of Munster players and the Munster coach speaking out about it. It just seems that theres an element that are trying to hound Schmidt to select their provinces players. These aren't comments that are bigging up their own players, they're literally comments accusing Schmidt of being biased and unprofessional.

usersame

He's not being hounded, one or two articles only. His selection is a bit wacky and definitely bias towards his former team (which happens to be Leinster), had he of managed Munster etc last year then I'm sure he would have been heavy on selecting those players. Sure it's great that he has lit a fire under some of the munster camp coming into the HC closing stages, points to be proven!

CatFromHue

In general I don't think it's too bad but you can see why Gatland talked about quotas after the Lions tour.

I found alot of the Social Media stuff to be far worse than anything in the written press e.g. there's a thread on Munsterfans asking Is Schmidt picking Leinster players to the detriment of the National team, or something like that. Complete moronic stuff really.

At the end of the day it's far easier to say XYZ coach is picking XYZ player as he's from XYZ team as opposed to spending the hours and hours doing the actual analysis to find out why.

Dunno if anyone has read The Secret Footballer (it's a great book I thought and would recommend it) but it's about a pro footballer in England and what it's like to be a pro footballer. He makes the great point that no matter how knowledgeable a fan of the game is their level of knowledge compared to a pro is non existent. He then goes on to give out about retired ex-pros and some of the stuff they say which he things is a) pandering to sterotypes or b) they're just not very smart full stop.

Rightwing

Zeebs wrote: »

Is anyone else absolutely disgusted by how some elements of the media have treated Joe Schmidt? Ireland have just gone from having their worst ever 6 nations to winning it under Schmidt while missing a number of Lions players and he is still being grilled in the media about having a 'Leinster bias' and being questioned about the non selection of Munster players.

Its shameful that Schmidt has been so hounded by certain reporters that he even needs to come out with comments like this:




I just find the whole affair so strange. You might understand it if Schmidt had done badly but seeing as he won the competition its even more peculiar. I struggle to find one player from Munster who can legitimately be felt hard done by. Certainly not to the extent that media reporters should be levelling accusations of bias towards the national coach.

Maybe I am being dramatic here but it seems like there are elements in the media that are essentially trying to bully Schmidt into selecting their province's players.

Part of the territory if it were the case, but I think he's got off lightly and the media are in awe of him.

Podge_irl

I think you're being a wee bit precious. The baffling lack of questions of Kidney shouldn't really lower the standards across the board. I have no issue with the question being asked - if nothing else it allows him to explain something that is likely in the mind if many casual fans

WorldRugby99

i think schmidt has in the main been treated very well by the press and seems to be much respect for him. Hes just spent past years at leinster so will he know those players better,will he have a lot of faith in those he was successful with?obviously. It will be an obvious stick to beat him with from those outside leinster who feel marginal calls arent going their way but which non leinster players have serious case for inclusion? while ireland are winning it wont be an issue certainly.

usersame

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

i think schmidt has in the main been treated very well by the press and seems to be much respect for him. Hes just spent past years at leinster so will he know those players better,will he have a lot of faith in those he was successful with?obviously. It will be an obvious stick to beat him with from those outside leinster who feel marginal calls arent going their way but which non leinster players have serious case for inclusion? while ireland are winning it wont be an issue certainly.

There's a good few to be fair, some of the players he picked wouldn't make a HC team for Munster, Leinster or Ulster, but he is picking what he can manage best and got undeniable results, there are lads now with 6Ns medals who wouldn't have made an Irish senior team under any other circumstances in their career, that in part is why I'm so impressed with Schmidt and why it was such a meaningful victory, and given time and fully selecting from our talent pool could get very serious contenders for the WC.

sydthebeat

the meeja love controversy so they create their own.... nothing new here.

its up to discerning consumer of the media to differentiate between the faux outrage and the realistic newsworthy stories.

Phonehead

usersame wrote: »

There's a good few to be fair, some of the players he picked wouldn't make a HC team for Munster, Leinster or Ulster, but he is picking what he can manage best and got undeniable results, there are lads now with 6Ns medals who wouldn't have made an Irish senior team under any other circumstances in their career, that in part is why I'm so impressed with Schmidt and why it was such a meaningful victory, and given time and fully selecting from our talent pool could get very serious contenders for the WC.

:eek::eek::eek:

Please explain which players wouldn't make a Leinster, Ulster or Munster HC team??? I'm all ears here

sydthebeat

Phonehead wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek:

Please explain which players wouldn't make a Leinster, Ulster or Munster HC team??? I'm all ears here

dont feed the troll!!

his players have just won a 6N and some posters claim they are not good enough for Heineken cup level.... surely you can see trolling as obvious as this is.

Podge_irl

To be fair, I'm not so sure the comment means that they're not good enough for HEC level so much as it means the options for HEC level at the other teams are better.

Regardless I don't agree. Mind you, I'm not sure DK would start for Ulster or Munster at HEC level but that's not necessarily reflective on him.

Zeebs

Podge_irl wrote: »

Regardless I don't agree. Mind you, I'm not sure DK would start for Ulster or Munster at HEC level but that's not necessarily reflective on him.

But thats a moot point because those who would start ahead of him at the respective teams i.e Zebo, Bowe, Fitzgerald and Earls were all injured for all of, or some of, the 6 nations tournament.

Phonehead

Zeebs wrote: »

But thats a moot point because those who would start ahead of him at the respective teams i.e Zebo, Bowe, Fitzgerald and Earls were all injured for all of, or some of, the 6 nations tournament.

Don't talk nonsense.... Johne Murphy and Conway would still be miles better than Kearney

Podge_irl

Zeebs wrote: »

But thats a moot point because those who would start ahead of him at the respective teams i.e Zebo, Bowe, Fitzgerald and Earls were all injured for all of, or some of, the 6 nations tournament.

I agree entirely, and I'm possibly trying too hard to see other points of view, but I can understand why someone would be underwhelmed by the likes of DK in the Irish team. Honestly, two years ago I thought he was only still with Leinster cause of his brother but I was just stupidly wrong.

I think, especially with someone like Schmidt who has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the game, that regular punters (and I include myself in that) won't always understand what he sees in the player. What he looks for will fly over my head while I can easily see a 60m break for a try.

Zeebs

Phonehead wrote: »

Don't talk nonsense.... Johne Murphy and Conway would still be miles better than Kearney

I don't know if this is serious or not... but neither would IMO.

awec

The provincialism really is an absolute embarrassment. The constant "why did you not pick someone from my province" is really tiresome.

Phonehead

Zeebs wrote: »

I don't know if this is serious or not... but neither would IMO.

No I'm 100% not being serious, just highlighting than some people will no matter what have their red tinted glasses on.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

The provincialism really is an absolute embarrassment. The constant "why did you not pick someone from my province" is really tiresome.

Incredibly tiresome. But also somewhat understandable, particularly from people who may not follow provincial rugby that closely.

marienbad

awec wrote: »

The provincialism really is an absolute embarrassment. The constant "why did you not pick someone from my province" is really tiresome.

This has always been the case, actually JS has had it better that most .

Zeebs

marienbad wrote: »

This has always been the case, actually JS has had it better that most .

Really? can you link me to one article that critized Declan Kidney for bias?

Swan Curry

marienbad wrote: »

This has always been the case, actually JS has had it better that most .

Nonsense.Kidney was given an armchair ride by the likes of Thornley up until his very last day,whereas Schmidt has had to deal with crap like Leamy's "Waaaaaahhh,there aren't enough Munster players in the Ireland team!" article.

Podge_irl

Zeebs wrote: »

Really? can you link me to one article that critized Declan Kidney for bias?

There was no media criticism (or even investigation) of Kidney for anything.

It was bizarre.

However I'd rather not use that as a barometer for anything.

marienbad

Swan Curry wrote: »

Nonsense.Kidney was given an armchair ride by the likes of Thornley up until his very last day,whereas Schmidt has had to deal with crap like Leamy's "Waaaaaahhh,there aren't enough Munster players in the Ireland team!" article.

There have been more Ireland coaches than Kidney

Skid X

Zeebs wrote: »

Well for example at almost every press conference there was a woman with a Cork accent who would always starts off the press conference by asking Schmidt about the non selection of Munster players.

You've had former Munster players openly criticize his non selection of Munster players and the Munster coach speaking out about it. It just seems that theres an element that are trying to hound Schmidt to select their provinces players. These aren't comments that are bigging up their own players, they're literally comments accusing Schmidt of being biased and unprofessional.

It's a shame to hear people in the media who should know better whinging about a non-existent provincial bias, but it won't bother Joe Schmidt too much.

Ireland could win back to back Rugby World Cups and there would still be people complaining about the team selection.

ted1

a good coach doesn't pick players he picks a team. No point in him picking the best 15 individual players if they cant play well with each other. So of course there will be a bias to picking team mates who have a proven track record with each other.

Zeebs

marienbad wrote: »

There have been more Ireland coaches than Kidney

OK give me an example of a coach that has been openly criticized in the media for selection bias?

marienbad

Zeebs wrote: »

OK give me an example of a coach that has been openly criticized in the media for selection bias?

No, find them yourself, As you said yourself maybe you are being a bit dramatic here, which in itself shows a kind of bias.

Any potential complaints were ruled out by our injury list anyway.That JS is the ideal man for the job is a no brainer and is welcomed in even the deepest pockets of Turnipland .

Zeebs

marienbad wrote: »

No, find them yourself, As you said yourself maybe you are being a bit dramatic here, which in itself shows a kind of bias.

Any potential complaints were ruled out by our injury list anyway.That JS is the ideal man for the job is a no brainer and is welcomed in even the deepest pockets of Turnipland .

Well thats the point, I don't think there has been any so if you are claiming that there have been coaches accused of similar in the national press then maybe you could be so kind as to even type the coaches name?

marienbad

Zeebs wrote: »

Well thats the point, I don't think there has been any so if you are claiming that there have been coaches accused of similar in the national press then maybe you could be so kind as to even type the coaches name?

I don't understand this post

neilmulvey

ive no problem with the question being asked in a press conference because Schmidt has a right to reply, the objection I would have is the way some people, like Leamy, have tried to make out Schmidt is picking players who arent good enough for the national team when clearly they are with a newspaper article naming players and claiming they arent there on merit

I think Donnacha O'Callaghan said it a few week ago, its up to the munster players to play so well that they cannot me left out of the 23/15. I dont believe a single player made any of the match day squads for any other reason then on merit. The results speak volumes and Schmidt's record as a coach since 2010 means he does know best.

I remember reading an interview with Earls a while back about how there was always an air of suspicion between players from different provinces about sharing information/moves. I firmly believe Schmidt is above all that and will do his job his way and will not pander to silly idiots like Leamy who are just mouthing off aimlessly.

MadYaker

I've heard nothing but praise. Which is hardly surprising considering his record to date. Maybe it just so happens that the best team he can field has more leinster players?

Zeebs

marienbad wrote: »

I don't understand this post

You asked me to find examples myself. I don't think there is any examples so I can't find any. I wouldn't have started this thread if I could find examples. So I am asking you to give me the name of a previous coach who experienced it worse than JS?

alias no.9

Zeebs wrote: »

You asked me to find examples myself. I don't think there is any examples so I can't find any. I wouldn't have started this thread if I could find examples. So I am asking you to give me the name of a previous coach who experienced it worse than JS?

You started the thread, can you cite the articles treating Joe badly, I saw the Leamey one myself but nothing else

Zeebs

alias no.9 wrote: »

You started the thread, can you cite the articles treating Joe badly, I saw the Leamey one myself but nothing else

Every single press conference since the 6 nations?

CatFromHue

Of the press conferences I've seen I don't think he's been treated badly. The questions about Zebo for example are fairly topical so relevant to ask.

Zeebs

CatFromHue wrote: »

Of the press conferences I've seen I don't think he's been treated badly. The questions about Zebo for example are fairly topical so relevant to ask.

He was asked every week about selection bias.

alias no.9

Zeebs wrote: »

Every single press conference since the 6 nations?

Press conferences get much more exposure these days, often being streamed live on the internet,in the past you got snippets at best, you're simply not comparing like with like when looking at the treatment of previous incumbents. There are always odd questions trying to provoke responses and stories. If you compare the print media reports from these press conferences with the print media reports from the past you get a valid comparison of the key points. As I said the Leamey article is the only one I've seen that's critical and that looks to me like the result of reporters trawling the ranks of the ex pros to get anything controversial.

Zeebs

alias no.9 wrote: »

Press conferences get much more exposure these days, often being streamed live on the internet,in the past you got snippets at best, you're simply not comparing like with like when looking at the treatment of previous incumbents. There are always odd questions trying to provoke responses and stories. If you compare the print media reports from these press conferences with the print media reports from the past you get a valid comparison of the key points. As I said the Leamey article is the only one I've seen that's critical and that looks to me like the result of reporters trawling the ranks of the ex pros to get anything controversial.

When has a coach ever felt the need to come out and deny selection bias?

Is the fact that reporters even felt the need to do that not proof of my point?

Kayless

This whole bias thing is stupid, if Earls, Ryan and Sherry were fit they would have made the squad. In Sherrys case he would have been 3rd choice as Strauss had just returned.

So in all that would have been 7 players from Munster: POC, POM, Murray, TOD, Earls, Ryan and Sherry.

POC, POM, Murray started most of the games and TOD was used as bench cover.


What can Schmidt do about the fact that these other guys were injured? I'm sure he would have loved to have had Earls on the wing and Ryan in the second row, sure look at the praise he was giving Ryan for helping out in training.

It's simple, there is no bias.

Sasana Paddy

I wouldn't worry to much about it tbh.

Im 100% certain that Joe couldn't give two fiddlers feck's what they said

alias no.9

Zeebs wrote: »

When has a coach ever felt the need to come out and deny selection bias?

Is the fact that reporters even felt the need to do that not proof of my point?

Reporters ask questions in press conferences and the odd tidbit makes the reports. Modern technology means we can see the whole lot and very little makes print. Why would you think there were any less odd questions about selections back when there were no live streams, whatever they were about? Reporters probe and look for a reaction, that's what they're paid to do, many of the questions yield nothing of note, its like you're grading an exam paper based on the rough work sheet.

danthefan

awec wrote: »

The provincialism really is an absolute embarrassment. The constant "why did you not pick someone from my province" is really tiresome.

Someone on here summarised the Leamy article perfectly: "Joe Schmidt shouldn't pick the players he's familiar with. He should pick the players I'm familiar with instead".

Can't find the post now, would give credit if I could.

Genuinely at the point where I'm wondering what some people's priorities are, the provincial make up of the team or the success of the team.

ted1

a good coach doesn't pick players he picks a team. No point in him picking the best 15 individual players if they cant play well with each other. So of course there will be a bias to picking team mates who have a proven track record with each other.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Jesus this is a pretty hysterical thread.

Schmidt just being lauded on Second Captains, brilliant interview. I'd suggest watching that rather than getting wound up over a Denis Leamy opinion piece

thebaz

awec wrote: »

The provincialism really is an absolute embarrassment. The constant "why did you not pick someone from my province" is really tiresome.

spot on , thought Leamy's pre match comments were just small minded tribalism, would have expected more from a great servant to the game.
We , everyone , whether from leinster, munster, connacht, ulster should just want the best team - if that 15 from Munster , I don't give a rats , as long as its the best.

jm08

I'm not sure too many people actually read Leamy's article. Worth doing so.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/denis-leamy-munster-players-harshly-treated-30091401.html


I really can't see what people are getting so uptight over. The relevant part here. Its fairly mild opinion to be getting very excited about.

DISSATISFACTION
Nevertheless, I thought he would have widened the options for the Italian game – and you don't have to go far in this region to hear people's dissatisfaction that there are so few Munster players involved.
The argument is that Munster are in a rich vein of form, they have been near the top of the Pro12 all season and have qualified for the quarter-finals of the Heineken Cup, yet only a handful of players are involved with the national team.

Of course, Leinster have also been near the top of the league all season and have also qualified for the quarter-finals of the Heineken Cup.
Yet, I think what rankles with Munster people – and I suspect a similar view might be held by some folk up in Ulster – is that guys who aren't first choice in Leinster are still good enough for the national squad.
In fairness, that may also reflect the strength that Leinster have at the moment. However, I would have to disagree with some of the calls.
It is one thing losing your place on the team to a player coming back from injury or something like that, but Tommy O'Donnell lost his place on the bench. I can't see what he did wrong in the short roles that he had against Scotland and Wales and, in any event, I think he is a better player than Jordi Murphy.

Also, I would argue that Donnacha Ryan brings more to the table than Rhys Ruddock, and you just have to wonder what Simon Zebo – a Lion last summer, let's not forget – has to do to get back into a squad where the likes of Tommy Bowe and Luke Fitzgerald have been out injured all through.

You can see where Munster supporters feel there is too much of an emphasis on Leinster players, and I also think that Paddy Jackson has a more rounded game at the moment than Ian Madigan.
Schmidt has gone with players he is very familiar with and victory in Paris would justify those tight calls.

However, with South Africa and Australia coming here for the November games and then only the Six Nations this time next year before the World Cup – which is just 18 months away – the two-match summer tour to Argentina is going to take on a new level of importance.
After all, for example, there is going to be a gaping hole at No 13 and nobody has been groomed to fill it. It is testimony to Brian O'Driscoll that he has managed to remain so injury-free – after encountering a lot of difficulties early in his career – that opportunities have been far and few between for others to stake a claim to that position.

WIDENED
But the circle will need to be widened and having not done that in this Six Nations campaign, it narrows the opportunities.
Yet, you can understand the reasoning behind a lot of Schmidt's calls and at the outset of the competition it would have been a goal to be heading to Paris on the final weekend still in contention for the Championship.
The fact that they are is testimony to a lot and victory tomorrow would be a great way to round off O'Driscoll's career in a city where he announced his arrival on the big stage.

It would also be a perfect start to Schmidt's reign. He has an unique insight into the French game having worked with Clermont Auvergne.
The Irish defence has been superb – just two tries conceded – and I think that will provide the platform for a rare success in Paris tomorrow.
It's long overdue, but I think their superiority will win through despite all the psychological baggage.

It would be nice if someone went through what he said and explain what he has said is so wrong.

awec

The provincial muck is just embarrassing. People like Leamy should be telling people to give over about this "x province only has y number of players" rather than adding fuel to the fire.

So small minded. There is no trophy for supplying the most players to the Ireland squad so I don't understand the obsession with it. It's actually pathetic.

CatFromHue

Well he's comparing Ryan and Ruddock for a start, that's Ruddock who's only been in 1 match day squad for Ireland and only as a sub and isn't a second row. I'm going to go out on a limb here but I think even Munster fans reckon that Ryan is a far better 2nd row than back row and wouldn't really be considered an International back row possible.

I don't think any of the other teams changed or rotated many players, if any, for the Italian match. Plus it was in many ways a shoot out between Ireland and England to see who could score more points against Italy as we'd both lost one game and points difference was a big decider. Also historically I don't know how much rotation or widened the selection for games against Italy in the 6N either.

Schmidt did say that Madigan covers more options for the bench so that's why he got selected, Madigan who's started at 15 for a good few games and been moved to 12 for a good few other ones whereas PJ (as far as I know) has only played 10. So with Madigan and McFadden you can cover 10-15 with minimal changes. Schmidt also said that if Sexton were injured he'd more than likely have gone with PJ.

He also goes on about guys not in the first choice 15 for Leinster getting ahead of Munster and Ulster players. This is true but one of the reasons that Leinster are top of the league now is do with these guys. Moore for example has more game time than Ross and more HEC+Rabo game time than Archer (246 v 198) though I'm guessing he's thinking more of McGrath and Kilcoyne and D.Kearney and Zebo here. McGrath has less game time than Kilcoyne but has more than Healy this season for Leinster so he's not really a bum now and has been edging into the Leinster team for a few seasons too. The Zebo Kearney thing I don't know but obviously Schmidt see's something in Keanrey that he doesn't in Zebo, also Kearney is very much first choice wing for Leinster this season. Keanrey isn't a bad player that's the thing and has played well for Ireland in the 6N so it's not like he's snubbing Zebo by playing someone's who's stinking up the place.

He then mentions widening the circle again but then you could also argue that all of fringe players like TOD, Murphy, Ruddock, Henderson, Jackson, McGrath, Moore, Madigan and even the unfortunate Tuohy have all made sub appearances through the comp so how much gametime does he want to give out in our competitive 6N.

I suppose also there's a bit of distaste in what is mainly a negative article on Ireland the day before we play such a big game.

molloyjh

The problem with the selection bias nonsense is that it's come up so often. It was continually mentioned in the media through-out the 6 Nations (even on Against the Head), the article with the Leamy interview made it worse and now we have one of our provincial coaches continuing to stoke it after the question was directly posed to the Championship winning coach. It's been hard to get away from it.

It fuels a "debate" that is nothing but poison to the game here. A few years ago Guinness set up a rugby page that had players posting on it and trying to interact with fans. That didn't last any longer than a few months really because of the way a very vocal minority treated the players who posted. The page was then used as a place where people could casually chat about the game. It didn't take long for most reasonable and rational people to abandon the page because of the tribalism on display there. The IRFU page is getting that way now. People who post congrats to someone like Sexton or Heaslip for their nominations as player of the tournament are being told to start "taking their pills again" or being called idiots. People shouldn't be forced away from forums like these due to this sort of behaviour. And our media shouldn't be fueling it. And whether we think Joe is getting badly treated or not they are without doubt fueling that fire.