VW Golf malfunction 3 weeks after a service. Advice needed.

Peter Flynt

Hi all

I have a 2010 VW Golf that recently went in for a service (about 5 weeks ago) to a VW Dealer.

Three weeks later three warnings appeared on the dashboard [EPC, ESP/ASR malfunction and Engine Malfunction].

Naturally, of course, I contacted the same dealer to enquire about this.

I was asked to bring the car back . . . at a €112 diagnosis fee (the original service cost €300 - this included new windscreen wipers and two new front wheels)

The mechanic who dealt with the car before stated that the €112 fee will be waived if they find themselves responsible for any fault. . . . In other words if they admit responsibility - which I don't trust they would do even if they find themselves responsible.

Any advice?

rex-x

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Hi all

I have a 2010 VW Golf that recently went in for a service (about 5 weeks ago) to a VW Dealer.

Three weeks later three warnings appeared on the dashboard [EPC, ESP/ASR malfunction and Engine Malfunction].

Naturally, of course, I contacted the same dealer to enquire about this.

I was asked to bring the car back . . . at a €112 diagnosis fee (the original service cost €300 - this included new windscreen wipers and two new front wheels)

The mechanic who dealt with the car before stated that the €112 fee will be waived if they find themselves responsible for any fault. . . . In other words if they admit responsibility - which I don't trust they would do even if they find themselves responsible.

Any advice?

Why do you think the garage should have any responsibility for this fault? unless it was related so something they did(which is really really unlikely) its just a fault that happened and you should pay them accordingly!

Peter Flynt

rex-x wrote: »

Why do you think the garage should have any responsibility for this fault? unless it was related so something they did(which is really really unlikely) its just a fault that happened and you should pay them accordingly!

No. This time I'll pay a garage that I trust.

Kenny Logins

Would you still be suspicious of the garage if a month had passed? 6 weeks?

Peter Flynt

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Would you still be suspicious of the garage if a month had passed? 6 weeks?

The Garage are suspicious of themselves as they've admitted they won't charge any €112 fee if they are liable.

I didn't ask them for that.

A car that was running fine was left in their care and a matter of a couple of weeks later and there's yellow warning symbols all over the gaff.

I've decided what to do. . . Give the car to one of their competitors and see how they get on.

pippip

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The Garage are suspicious of themselves as they've admitted they won't charge any €112 fee if they are liable.

I didn't ask them for that.

A car that was running fine was left in their care and a matter of a couple of weeks later and there's yellow warning symbols all over the gaff.

I've decided what to do. . . Give the car to one of their competitors and see how they get on.

Thats not suspicious thats just common sense, why would they charge you IF they have caused the problem.

Peter Flynt

pippip wrote: »

Thats not suspicious thats just common sense, why would they charge you IF they have caused the problem.

I'm not paying €112 to a garage to look at a car that they were paid €300 to look after and service barely weeks after that service.

The offer from the Garage to me should have been no diagnosis fee on the basis that they had the car in their possession weeks earlier.

Marty McFly

Jesus from the sounds of it I'd say the garage will be only to happy to give you your keys back and give yea directions to there competitor.

Drummerboy08

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm not paying €112 to a garage to look at a car that they were paid €300 to look after and service barely weeks after that service.

The offer from the Garage to me should have been no diagnosis fee on the basis that they had the car in their possession weeks earlier.

But why would they possibly pay for work to be done to the car that wasn't caused by them?

What happens if you bring it to a competitor and it's found that indeed the original garage did cause something to trigger the lights? Who'll pay for it then?

Yakuza

Charging €112 to plug a laptop in and read off a few error messages is a bit stiff, no? Or would a diagnosis involve any actual, you know, labour?

Peter Flynt

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

But why would they possibly pay for work to be done to the car that wasn't caused by them?

They don't know if they've caused these problems. They've admitted as much.

What happens if you bring it to a competitor and it's found that indeed the original garage did cause something to trigger the lights? Who'll pay for it then?

Either way I'm paying. . . again

djimi

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm not paying €112 to a garage to look at a car that they were paid €300 to look after and service barely weeks after that service.

The offer from the Garage to me should have been no diagnosis fee on the basis that they had the car in their possession weeks earlier.

Things can go pop in a car at any time; the fact that the garage had this car in their possession weeks earlier is almost certainly going to be entirely irrelevant here.

If you bring the car to another garage then you are going to find it very hard to have the initial garage take responsibility for anything, as they can rightly point to the fact that a third party has carried out work on the car that they cannot stand over.

Peter Flynt

Yakuza wrote: »

Charging €112 to plug a laptop in and read off a few error messages is a bit stiff, no? Or would a diagnosis involve any actual, you know, labour?

That's my understanding as well.

€112 to plug in a laptop.

Once the problem is diagnosed then the real fees start being discussed.

The €112 is just an appetizer.

Peter Flynt

djimi wrote: »

Things can go pop in a car at any time; the fact that the garage had this car in their possession weeks earlier is almost certainly going to be entirely irrelevant here.

If you bring the car to another garage then you are going to find it very hard to have the initial garage take responsibility for anything, as they can rightly point to the fact that a third party has carried out work on the car that they cannot stand over.

I don't expect them to take responsibility AT ALL. . . even if they consider themselves responsible.

That's the point here.

djimi

Peter Flynt wrote: »

They don't know if they've caused these problems. They've admitted as much.

I think you are reading considerably more into what they have said than you need to in fairness. They have said they will waive the fee if they find that they are at fault. That is not them admitting liability; they are basically saying that they dont think that they are not liable (hence the fee), but if they do find something then they will admit to it.

HandsomeDan

No smoke without fire OP. Go with your instinct on this one and use another garage.

Kimbot

Peter, may i ask if you have any other issues with the car, i.e. is the car sluggish or anything or is it just the light on the dash?

If its only the light on the dash then have a look at your air filter box and ensure its closed. had the same happen me a few months ago in my Tdi golf

Caliden

Overreacting a bit much?

How on earth could a normal service cause the issue you have now?
Correlation does not imply causation..

pippip

Yakuza wrote: »

Charging €112 to plug a laptop in and read off a few error messages is a bit stiff, no? Or would a diagnosis involve any actual, you know, labour?

Generally a dealer diagnostic runs tests on the car and can take an hour or two. It will show faults first but a single fault can be caused by a number different things.

That is an hour or two that the equipment and possibly ramp cannot be used for another job. It does sound slightly high but it is a main dealer.

knucklehead6

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I don't expect them to take responsibility AT ALL. . . even if they consider themselves responsible.

That's the point here.

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but I don't follow what you are getting at here?

Peter Flynt

Caliden wrote: »

Overreacting a bit much?

How on earth could a normal service cause the issue you have now?
Correlation does not imply causation..

I'm not blaming the Garage. I don't know if they caused any damage and neither do they.

Where's the customer relations with "Give us another €112 to have a look at it" . . . weeks after they've been paid €300 to service the car.

They did state after there would be no fee if they were responsible.

djimi

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I don't expect them to take responsibility AT ALL. . . even if they consider themselves responsible.

That's the point here.

And what do you hope will happen if another dealer looks at the car? You will absolutely be out of pocket for the diagnosis fee (the other dealer is not going to care what caused the issue; they are not involved and will want to get paid either way), and you will still have the same fight on your hands.

So one way you might have to pay for the diagnosis, the other way you definitely will.

You can always dispute their findings afterwards if you dont like what they find. But honestly, I would be very surprised if the issue turns out to have anything to do with the service.

djimi

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm not blaming the Garage. I don't know if they caused any damage and neither do they.

Where's the customer relations with "Give us another €112 to have a look at it" . . . weeks after they've been paid €300 to service the car.

They did state after there would be no fee if they were responsible.

The issue is with how they worded it to you (which I will admit was put poorly). If they had said

"bring it in and well have a look. If we find that its something to do with the service then of course we will cover the cost, however if it is a new issue then we will have to charge you for the diagnosis and the repairs".

Same thing, but just worded differently...

Peter Flynt

jonny24ie wrote: »

Peter, may i ask if you have any other issues with the car, i.e. is the car sluggish or anything or is it just the light on the dash?

If its only the light on the dash then have a look at your air filter box and ensure its closed. had the same happen me a few months ago in my Tdi golf

The performance of the car has greatly reduced due to the EPC fault.

I'm not really driving it at the moment

Peter Flynt

djimi wrote: »

The issue is with how they worded it to you (which I will admit was put poorly). If they had said

"bring it in and well have a look. If we find that its something to do with the service then of course we will cover the cost, however if it is a new issue then we will have to charge you for the diagnosis and the repairs".

Same thing, but just worded differently...

. . which is fair enough and I'd be in broad agreement.

I suppose I was taking aback by the diagnosis cost of €112.

I thought they were taking the piss to be honest.

_Kaiser_

If you know someone with the VAG-COM/VCDS software and cable then the best bet is to get them to run a scan on the car for you.

I invested in one myself for precisely the same reason.. why pay €100 for something I can do myself and then bring the print out with me if works needs doing.

whippet

Peter Flynt wrote: »

€112 to plug in a laptop.

what about the cost to pay for the laptop, the server with the diagnostics software, the maintenance and support on the software and server, the wages for the mechanic to plug in the laptop, the training to read the diagnostics, the paper and printer to print out the diagnostics, the light & heat in the workshop, the insurance, rates on the premises .... I suppose they don't come in to it at all?

Peter Flynt

whippet wrote: »

what about the cost to pay for the laptop, the server with the diagnostics software, the maintenance and support on the software and server, the wages for the mechanic to plug in the laptop, the training to read the diagnostics, the paper and printer to print out the diagnostics, the light & heat in the workshop, the insurance, rates on the premises .... I suppose they don't come in to it at all?

Cost of the laptop? . . Gimme a break will ya. .

Drummerboy08

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Cost of the laptop? . . Gimme a break will ya. .

Sure it's all free.

Peter Flynt

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Sure it's all free.

I never asked for anything for free.

As it happens another VW Garage has contacted me and offered to do the diagnosis for €80 - a good 30% less

Truckermal

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Sure it's all free.

Oh Lord thank god I don't deal with members of the public anymore especially ones like the OP.

thomas anderson.

I'd be very suspicious.

I brought my girlfriends brand new golf to get the tracking done (to an official VW garage) and they dropped it off the lift.

Demand a print out of the readings before you pay anymore money

zarquon

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If you know someone with the VAG-COM/VCDS software and cable then the best bet is to get them to run a scan on the car for you.

I invested in one myself for precisely the same reason.. why pay €100 for something I can do myself and then bring the print out with me if works needs doing.

I have a vagcom but i'd be afraid to help out someone with an atitude like the OPs. What if someone ran a scan and 2 months later they had some electrical or ECU issue. What's stopping someone with a similiar atitude from coming back insisting that the VAG COM caused the issue?

Seriouly, an oil change service and a seperate EPC/ABC fault a few weeks later is suddenly the fault of the dealer? That's nonsense!

If the brakes were serviced i would be on the OP's side but i am guessing by the cost that it was just a standard oil and filter change.

dr.fuzzenstein

whippet wrote: »

what about the cost to pay for the laptop, the server with the diagnostics software, the maintenance and support on the software and server, the wages for the mechanic to plug in the laptop, the training to read the diagnostics, the paper and printer to print out the diagnostics, the light & heat in the workshop, the insurance, rates on the premises .... I suppose they don't come in to it at all?

What about it?
€112 for what is a 5 minute job is bordering on theft and preying on the gullible.
I can buy diagnostic equipment for that money.
Or go to an independent garage, has never cost me more than €20.
It's a rip-off, no if and or but.

Peter Flynt

zarquon wrote: »

I have a vagcom but i'd be afraid to help out someone with an atitude like the OPs. What if someone ran a scan and 2 months later they had some electrical or ECU issue. What's stopping someone with a similiar atitude from coming back insisting that the VAG COM caused the issue?

Seriouly, an oil change service and a seperate fault a few weeks later is suddenly the fault of the dealer? That's nonsense!

Perhaps you'd like to point out to me where I've placed blame for any fault to the original dealer.

zarquon

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to point out to me where I've placed blame for any fault to the original dealer.

You are implying that this fault is potentially caused by the service? That's only plausible if you got related work done. If the fault developed 3 months down the road would you still think the garage might be at fault?

dr.fuzzenstein

whippet wrote: »

what about the cost to pay for the laptop, the server with the diagnostics software, the maintenance and support on the software and server, the wages for the mechanic to plug in the laptop, the training to read the diagnostics, the paper and printer to print out the diagnostics, the light & heat in the workshop, the insurance, rates on the premises .... I suppose they don't come in to it at all?

And furthermore to that logic:
The lift. It costs thousands, needs a building, trained mechanics, power, insurance, etc...
Why don't garages charge €100 to put the car on the lift?
Something like:

Parts €60
Labour €120
Lift Charge €100
Electricity €5
Tea and scones for the receptionist €5

No, for some reason I just can't see it...

Peter Flynt

zarquon wrote: »

You are implying that this fault is potentially caused by the service? That's only plausible if you got related work done. If the fault developed 3 months down the road would you still think the garage might be at fault?

No I definitely wouldn't.

The time frame is a factor as shortly after the service was done these faults have developed. Three months would clearly be too long a timeframe to infer anything. I don't know if they've caused these faults and neither do they. I'm only interested in getting my car back to normal. I'm not interested in blame.

I would have at least preferred if they'd offered to do the diagnostic test for much less than €112.

zarquon

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And furthermore to that logic:
The lift. It costs thousands, needs a building, trained mechanics, power, insurance, etc...
Why don't garages charge €100 to put the car on the lift?
Something like:

Parts €60
Labour €120
Lift Charge €100
Electricity €5
Tea and scones for the receptionist €5

No, for some reason I just can't see it...

If you don't like the costs go elsewhere or buy a diagnostic tool. There are options out there and nobody should be complaining about value if they insist on getting simple work done at a dealership.

Peter Flynt

zarquon wrote: »

If you don't like the costs go elsewhere . .

I am - to another VW dealer offering to do the diagnostic test for 80 instead.

dr.fuzzenstein

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I am - to another VW dealer offering to do the diagnostic test for 80 instead.

Again, it's stupid money.
Of course, it's a free country and anyone can charge what they like, but that little bit of brain seems to be missing in many businesses that can see a correlation between the quality of their product, the price they are charging and the amount of customers coming through their door.
Their final words usually are "I have no idea what I did wrong..."
And €80 is still cheeky.
Main dealers are all good and well, but I find I have very limited use for them.
They can work out on very specialised jobs where there is no independent expertise around, because paying a hack half the money to take three times as long also doesn't work.

Yakuza

whippet wrote: »

what about the cost to pay for the laptop, the server with the diagnostics software, the maintenance and support on the software and server, the wages for the mechanic to plug in the laptop, the training to read the diagnostics, the paper and printer to print out the diagnostics, the light & heat in the workshop, the insurance, rates on the premises .... I suppose they don't come in to it at all?

Let's see now:
the cost to pay for the laptop : Fixed overhead
the server with the diagnostics software : Fixed overhead
the maintenance and support on the software and server : Fixed overhead
the wages for the mechanic to plug in the laptop : 5-10 min job.
the training to read the diagnostics : I learned to read in school, I would imagine most mechanics learned enough to read off a few letters and numbers in a code and look that code up in a database.
the paper and printer to print out the diagnostics : about 10c.
the light & heat in the workshop : Fixed overhead
the insurance : Fixed overhead
rates on the premises : Fixed overhead.

Most of those costs you listed are fixed overheads which would have had to be paid whether or not the OP came in looking for a diagnosis or not. And the inflated labour rates charged by garages are meant to cover the overheads you list anyway, so you're just double-counting/charging.

Peter Flynt

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Again, it's stupid money.
Of course, it's a free country and anyone can charge what they like, but that little bit of brain seems to be missing in many businesses that can see a correlation between the quality of their product, the price they are charging and the amount of customers coming through their door.
Their final words usually are "I have no idea what I did wrong..."

I don't feel I'm getting a deal here by any means.

However it is much less that the price being charged by the Garage I originally went to and I am prepared to pay a reputable dealer for their advice and the five minutes spent diagnosing.

The attitude of some on here is strange . . . It's as if the Rip Off Republic is still very much alive.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

This is no different to any other transaction. If €112 is too expensive go somewhere cheaper. You've stated that you don't trust the garage so move on, get on with it and stop whingeing.

dr.fuzzenstein

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I don't feel I'm getting a deal here by any means.

However it is much less that the price being charged by the Garage I originally went to and I am prepared to pay a reputable dealer for their advice and the five minutes spent diagnosing.

The attitude of some on here is strange . . . It's as if the Rip Off Republic is still very much alive.

I really don't know what you mean (cough...many "trade people" on here...cough):cool:

HandsomeDan

.

Peter Flynt

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I really don't know what you mean (cough...many "trade people" on here...cough):cool:

Oh I did suspect that alright. . .

djimi

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Again, it's stupid money.
Of course, it's a free country and anyone can charge what they like, but that little bit of brain seems to be missing in many businesses that can see a correlation between the quality of their product, the price they are charging and the amount of customers coming through their door.
Their final words usually are "I have no idea what I did wrong..."
And €80 is still cheeky.
Main dealers are all good and well, but I find I have very limited use for them.
They can work out on very specialised jobs where there is no independent expertise around, because paying a hack half the money to take three times as long also doesn't work.

In fairness, most service based companies will charge by the hour (or part thereof) for labour, and in my experience even with an indy mechanic you will be charged somewhere in the region of €60-€80 an hour for labour. You might see it as high (and perhaps it is), but ultimately overheads have to be covered, equipment paid for and maintained, staff paid for, premises possibly, utilities, insurance etc. Im sure if people werent willing to pay that kind of money then they wouldnt be long finding a way to lower prices.

djimi

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The attitude of some on here is strange . . . It's as if the Rip Off Republic is still very much alive.

The response that you got was not so much to do with the price that you were being charged, but more to do with your attitude and apparent lack of appreciation that just because a garage serviced your car several weeks ago does not mean that they should be offering free diagnostics to look at an issue that has cropped up now, when its entirely probable that the issue has nothing to do with the work that they carried out.

Peter Flynt

djimi wrote: »

The response that you got was not so much to do with the price that you were being charged, but more to do with your attitude and apparent lack of appreciation that just because a garage serviced your car several weeks ago does not mean that they should be offering free diagnostics to look at an issue that has cropped up now, when its entirely probable that the issue has nothing to do with the work that they carried out.

Yea well. . . Guess what?

I bought my car off that Garage and it will be replaced in the next 2 years.

Guess whose Garage I won't be requesting brochures from?

They've applied no common sense.

There are too many out there who think they're entitled to a living. . . . Not in 2014. This is not 2006.

Drummerboy08

Peter Flynt wrote: »

There are too many out there who think they're entitled to a living. . . . Not in 2014. This is not 2006.

There's also some who think they're entitled to something for nothing.

On the changing car subject, if another dealer is a few hundred quid cheaper than the dealer who does this for free you won't think twice about switching loyalties, so it's a lost cause regardless.