Another motorway crossover crash

BrianD3

Most people here have probably heard about the crash on the M50 today.

For those that haven't: A Toyota Camry crossed the central reservation between Blanchardstown and Finglas and collided with a Nissan Almera and Toyota Yaris. 7 people were injured and a couple of them are fighting for their lives according to RTE.

There is no central reservation barrier on the M50 at that point and had there been one it would surely have prevented or reduced the severity of the collision. The NRA are in the process of retrofitting barriers on M-ways and dual carriageways but it's a bit late for those unfortunate people on the M50 today.

BrianD3

Greenman

Ye saw that on the news!!! The NRA are fools, they were told about this years ago ie the central reservation barrier but did nothing. They are now putting down these dreadful barriers as per this post and in a few years I can see them digging them back up. I really despair of the NRA sometimes!!!

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/4529482?view=Eircomnet

Seven injured in Dublin motorway pile-up
From:ireland.com
Sunday, 28th November, 2004

Gardaí are investigating a serious road crash on the M50 motorway in Dublin in which seven people were injured

Five vehicles were involved in the crash, which happened on the northbound carriageway of the motorway between the Blanchardstown exit and the Finglas exit at around 11.30 a.m.

Two people are reported to have been seriously injured.

The injured were taken to the James Connolly Memorial Hospital in Blanchardstown, the Mater Hospital and Beaumont Hospital for treatment.

The northbound carriageway from Finglas to Blanchardstown has now been re-opened.

Tarabuses

Those bozos in the NRA should be hung out to dry over this. Incompetent doesn't even go near describing them. Every one of us who drives along our motorways has been put in danger by these people.

Why are they still in their jobs?

weehamster

to be honest with ye, I see anything been done to stop cars crossing the median until the 50 upgrade. :mad:

vinnyfitz

That eejit Ivor Calelly (Junior Minister for Transport) was on Morning Ireland talking about this this morning. He said the NRA should improve the barriers but. When asked whether the government would come up with extra money for the NRA to do this, he just ducked.

uberwolf

todays Irish Times says:

____________
Minister demands safety features for M50 after crash




The Minister of State for Transport, Mr Ivor Callely, will this morning demand that "median barriers or appropriate safety measures" are immediately put in place on the M50 following a major accident which left two children fighting for their lives. Tim O'Brien and Liam Reid report

The accident occurred when a car crossed the central reservation of the motorway and ploughed into oncoming traffic on the opposite lane yesterday morning.

Seven people were injured, six of them seriously, in the three-car pile-up, the second such serious accident to occur on an Irish motorway in three weeks.

The National Roads Authority (NRA) which is currently fitting safety barriers on all existing motorways - except the M50 - said it would be "extremely reluctant" to install the median barriers there.

The authority said a major scheme to provide a third lane in each direction would get under way in the second half of next year, and the barriers would have to be taken out again.

However, Mr Callely said last night he was "not prepared to wait up to 15 months for median barriers or appropriate safety measures to be put in place. I will be meeting with my officials in the morning, and will be requesting a full investigation. I will be guided by my officials, but something will have to be done immediately; it would be too long to wait 15 months."

Yesterday's accident occurred close to the Blanchardstown exit of the M50 shortly before noon, when a Toyota Camry, travelling in the south-bound carriageway, crashed through the median of the motorway and into the north-bound carriageway.

It ploughed into a Nissan Almera, carrying a woman and three children. It was then launched into the air, and glanced off the top of a Toyota Yaris before crashing on its side into the motorway embankment.

The two occupants of the Camry, a man and a woman, are in a serious condition in hospital. The occupants of the Almera were also seriously injured, with two of the children described as critical.

The roof of the mangled wreck was cut off by the Fire Brigade in order to free the children and the woman. Debris was strewn across the north-bound carriageway of the M50, which was totally closed off to traffic for five hours as specialists from the Garda Traffic Bureau took detailed measurements.

A criminal investigation was also initiated, and is being handled by Blanchardstown Garda station. Gardaí are appealing for witnesses.

Defending its decision not to put up safety barriers on the M50 immediately, the NRA said research showed motorways to be the Republic's safest roads.

Work on the building of a third lane is to get under way in phases starting next year but will not begin at the site of yesterday's crash until early 2006.

The scene of the accident is just two kilometres from the scene of a crash in which three men, one a priest, were killed in a similar cross-over accident in March 2001.

Three weeks ago, five people were injured, one critically, when a car crossed the median on the M1 near Dublin Airport and collided with two vehicles travelling in the opposite direction.

Fudger

I just wonder where our car tax monies really go ?????
Terrible crash, hope everyone pulls through ok. Any know what happened ? Was it a blow-out that caused the crossover or what?

Hagar

The Gardaí are apealling for anyone who saw the accident to come forward.
Everyone but the NRA saw it coming. Does that help?

thejollyrodger

I cant see anything being installed until after the M50 is upgraded either.

BrianD3

Any know what happened ? Was it a blow-out that caused the crossover or what?

I don't know, but one thing I did notice was that there were definitely two sets of tyre tracks running across the median with one set seeming to stop before it reached the other carriageway. This would suggest that maybe it was a collision that caused the crossover. Then again the second set of tracks could have been caused by an emergency service vehicle or an unrelated incident.

BrianD3

Trojan

Irrelevant perhaps: the M1 accident happened at 10.30am on a Sunday morning, this one at 11.30am on a Sunday morning, interesting coincidence for 2 such similar accidents (both had fire brigade cut roof off at least one car).

I hope the victims pull through ok.

BrianD

The tailback for the toll gates can start around Exit 6. Perhaps one of the vehicles was travelling at excessive speed and came upon the stopped traffic and either hit the brakes or swerved off the road. Once again has mistakenly picked up on the absence of crash barriers on this road as the key issue in this incident. In reality, it has nothing to do with it. Driver error or a major vehicle defect was the cause.

Hagar wrote:

Everyone but the NRA saw it coming. Does that help?

Its pretty obvious that this incident had nothing to do with the NRA and I wonder how they could have seen it coming!!!

Trojan

BrianD wrote:

Once again has mistakenly picked up on the absence of crash barriers on this road as the key issue in this incident. In reality, it has nothing to do with it.

And back here on Earth, we can clearly see that a potentially fatal cross-over accident could have been avoided by presence of a barrier, which could have turned it into a single-car side-swipe of the barrier.

sliabh

To be fair to the NRA, they don't wan't to install the barriers when they know that the M50 upgrade works are to be started in less than 18 months. It would be money wasted. Especially as when the M50 is one of the safest roads in teh country. While there have been two crossover accidents in the last month, how long has it been since there was one before that?

impr0v

There has been a criminal investigation launched, so it would seem that there is the possibility of dangerous or reckless driving causing the initial collision.

BrianD wrote:

The tailback for the toll gates can start around Exit 6

On a Sunday morning though?

Trojan wrote:

And back here on Earth, we can clearly see that a potentially fatal cross-over accident could have been avoided by presence of a barrier, which could have turned it into a single-car side-swipe of the barrier.

Indeed it could have been mitigated against with the installation of a barrier. It would still have been a potentially fatal accident when the car was bounced back into it's own lane, though the velocities would have been less. Whatever you do with the engineering aspect of roads you cannot make them idiot proof. Using roads puts you at risk of being killed by idiots who speed and drive dangerously, this will not change whatever barriers are added. In this respect the engineering side of things is coming under undeserved levels of criticism due to failures in other areas, such as enforcement and driver licencing.

If the barrier had been installed on the M50, then you'd also have the "OMG Those NRA guys are eejits, why have they jobs!!! taxpayers money, etc. etc." sensationalist and stupid posts here in a year when, after a number of months of hellish traffic distruption on the M50 and a large amount of money putting them in place, they had to be taken down again to facilitate the upgrade scheme.

As per the article in todays Irish Times, there have been three people killed due to 'crossover' accidents on the M50, and that was from the one, joyriding related, incident in 2001. Considering the amount of journeys undertaken on the road since it's opening, more than 90 million prior to the 2001 crash, it's an acceptable risk to leave it without barriers for a further 12 months, or 15 to 18 on this particular section, until it's upgraded. Statistically the chances of a similar accident happening prior to the third lane being added, and a barrier, are low and this is what dicates the economics of the situation.

Trojan

improv: I agree that it is a potentially fatal accident in any case, barriers or no.

What I don't agree with is Brians assertion that the absence of crash barriers on this road has nothing to do with this incident. I don't recall his affiliations, if any, but this sounds like the typical smokescreen we hear from our politicians and administrators day in-and-out. Apologies Brian if you're not a politician

IMnshO the magnitude of the incident is severely affected by the absence of these barriers.

Tarabuses

BrianD wrote:

Its pretty obvious that this incident had nothing to do with the NRA and I wonder how they could have seen it coming!!!

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The NRA are entirely responsible for vehicles crossing the central reservation into oncoming traffic in the opposite direction. They didn't need to see it coming since they have been told it would happen many times over.

BrianD3

Even though I am pro-barrier I agree that there has been a lot of hysteria about this issue lately and it has become a political issue rather than a safety one with the likes Callely jumping on the bandwagon and demanding that barriers be installed on the M50 RIGHT NOW. I'd ask these politicians, where the hell were ye 5,10,15 years ago when the roads were being built? I have been concerned about the lack of median barriers on Irish roads for a decade and can't have been the only one.

Median crossover fatalities are not a new thing. Around 10 years ago, I saw the aftermath of a crash on the Naas road where a young guy drove his parents Merc across the median in front of a truck carrying butter. Horrible crash.

BrianD3

Tarabuses

sliabh wrote:

To be fair to the NRA, they don't wan't to install the barriers when they know that the M50 upgrade works are to be started in less than 18 months. It would be money wasted. Especially as when the M50 is one of the safest roads in teh country. While there have been two crossover accidents in the last month, how long has it been since there was one before that?

Tell the relatives of the next person killed that it would have been money wasted.

sliabh

Tarabuses wrote:

Tell the relatives of the next person killed that it would have been money wasted.

That is a pretty lame (and cliched) retort.

The reality is that we do not have unlimited funds for safety and engioneering work. Prioritisation has to occur. We cannont (and quite sensibly do not) attach an infinite value to every life that is lost in an accident.

SeaSide

BrianD wrote:

Its pretty obvious that this incident had nothing to do with the NRA and I wonder how they could have seen it coming!!!

I count at least four places on my journey on the M50 where the hedge has been penetrated. Its Russion Roulette - there might be a car to get hit or there might not be...

Was there not a priest killed about four years ago when I think it was hit by one of two cars racing which lost control. There was another on the M7 where a jeep crossed the median. Once your on the grass you've no chance of braking

sliabh

SeaSide wrote:

I count at least four places on my journey on the M50 where the hedge has been penetrated. Its Russion Roulette - there might be a car to get hit or there might not be...

Was there not a priest killed about four years ago when I think it was hit by one of two cars racing which lost control. There was another on the M7 where a jeep crossed the median. Once your on the grass you've no chance of braking

Someone quoted the statistics earlier, there have been 4 crossover accidents in over 90 million trips. Calling it Russian roulette (where the odds are 1 in 6) is a little misleading.

And I have seen people drive through the median hedges when doing u-turns to avoid tailbacks. A damaged hedge cannot be taken as evidence of a crash.

SeaSide

sliabh wrote:

Someone quoted the statistics earlier, there have been 4 crossover accidents in over 90 million trips. Calling it Russian roulette (where the odds are 1 in 6) is a little misleading.

And I have seen people drive through the median hedges when doing u-turns to avoid tailbacks. A damaged hedge cannot be taken as evidence of a crash.

I was kinda saying that if a car crosses the median that its then Russian Roulette as to whether it hits something.

Never seen the U-turn through a hedge though. There are gaps.

BrianD

Tarabuses wrote:

Tell the relatives of the next person killed that it would have been money wasted.

I have no problem whatsoever! Do you really belive that the lack of barriers was the cause of their deaths??? OF COURSE NOT!

The evening papers are saying that the car that is believed to have caused the crash was allegedly travelling at 90MPH. Somebody might also like to tell that to the relatives of those injured. If such reports are true, my speculation that a driver travelling at excessive speed came upon stationary traffic Q'ing for the toll bridge and made an evasive manouever. I would say that had barriers been in place that this vehicle would have caused equally serious damage on the south bound lane.

Now we have The Minister of State for Transport calling for "median barriers or appropriate safety measures" to be installed immediately. What sort of IDIOTIC request is this - talk about not being able to see the wood from the trees! Next the Minister for Justice will be calling for everyone to wear flak jackets instead of fighting gun crime ...

ando

SeaSide wrote:

Once your on the grass you've no chance of braking

thats another thing, they should replace the grass with tarmac. They did that in Formula one a few years ago on some corners, they found tarmac to be a lot safer than gravel or grass for a car that went off. The grass when its raining is like ice

Tommy Vercetti

What use is a barrier, in the bigger scheme of things, when people who are neither qualified nor capable of operating a motor vehicle, are permitted to drive on the roads. I don't mean any disrespect to those injured in this collision, but it's just media hype because it happened on a motorway in Dublin. I see at least one collision every week on the M1 southbound because people are tailgating in the overtaking lane, and the fools probably don't know any better either. The major accident there a few weeks back was caused by someone leaning over to pick up his phone ffs. Putting up a very expensive and disruptive barrier isn't going to change peoples' ridiculously poor driving standards.

Hagar

Accidents will happen, either through drink, drugs, speed, incompetence, human error or mechanical failure. There is no comparison between a crash between two vehicles travelling in the same direction and a head-on collision.
These barriers offer protection to the innocent.
These barriers are life safers.

Westmeath Co Co are installing concrete crash barriers along the Athlone by-pass and making a good job of it. This standard of barriers be on all dual carriageways / motorways. These are great as they also block the lights of cars on the other side.

The idea of saving money based on statistical possibilities of crashing through the median is sheer lunacy to say the least. No money was saved. I would swear that Joe Public paid for these barriers but the non installation of the barriers simply made money for someone somewhere.

The price we pay in this country for civil engineering projects is criminal.
When they are finished robbing us blind we at least should be safe to use the roads.

sliabh

Hagar wrote:

The idea of saving money based on statistical possibilities of crashing through the median is sheer lunacy to say the least.

No it isn't. it's standard practice the world over.

If you have limited funds to spend then it makes total sense to spend your funding on the more likely accident.

Take an example. There is a very high probability of accidents involving cars trying to turn right being shunted into the opposite lane on N routes (this has happend regularly in the past and the consequences are pretty much the same as for a motorway crossover accident - multiple fatalities and serious injuries). The cost of road re-painting to provide dedicated right turn lanes on most of the risk junctions across the country is probably on the same order as putting crash barriers down the centre of the M50.

So if you worked for the NRA and you had the funding and resources for only one project, would you spend the money on repainting all the risk junctions across the country where the chance of an accident is high (probably several per year) or would you spend the money on the M50 where the chance is about one accident in every 2-3 years?

Hagar

sliabh wrote:

No it isn't. it's standard practice the world over.

Not in the places I've been.
What's that statement based on?
Your location mentions Germany, would it be standard practice in Germany for instance?
It didn't look that way when I was there.

sliabh

Hagar wrote:

Not in the places I've been.
What's that statement based on?

It's based on over 8 years experience as a project manager where the first thing that is done in any project is a cost benefit analysis.