Ireland's best backrow?

Blue giant

With the RWC coming up next year who do you think should be in the backrow for Ireland. A lot of great performances in that area this six nations. O'Mahoney v Wales and Scotland and Henry yesterday against France was immense in my opinion making tackles all over the field. Heaslip was his normal superb self in each game and took on more ball carrying responsibility because of SOBs absence. Then there's just the small matter of the returning duo of Ferris and O'Brien both of whom on form could well be in a world xv. So who is it? Each player offers something different than the others. For me it would be O'Mahoney O'Brien and Ferris( if he gets back to his very best)

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Quality wise it's Ferris/Heaslip/SOB but interestingly enough I don't think our win record is great against the top sides anytime they've all started together

Hagz

Has to be Fez, SOB and Heaslip for me. It was a joy to watch that combination in the world cup and I'd love to see it again.

lologram

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Quality wise it's Ferris/Heaslip/SOB but interestingly enough I don't think our win record is great against the top sides anytime they've all started together

Yes but who was coach when that trio played together? It's going to become an increasingly unfair comparison, putting them vs backrows which play under Joe.

thebaz

Heaslip & SOB are far & away the best in ther respective positions.

POM has probably overtaken Ferris, think if he bulks up a bit he will be truly World class. Ferris, I just wonder will he recover fully from injury, if he does will be a real battle with POM.

awec

thebaz wrote: »

Heaslip & SOB are far & away the best in ther respective positions.

POM has probably overtaken Ferris, think if he bulks up a bit he will be truly World class. Ferris, I just wonder will he recover fully from injury, if he does will be a real battle with POM.

Not sure POM has overtaken Ferris to be honest. Ferris is just freakishly good.

Different type of players though. You could see the two of them being rotated depending on what type of game we want to play.

Kayless

I think like others have said it would be Ferris/Heaslip/SOB but POM and Henry have one the whole had a great championship.

Then theres the Schmidt factor, Ferris/Heaslip/SOB playing in a schmidt team is a very different prospect to Ferris/Heaslip/SOB playing in a Kidney team, so yes I would like to see how this backrow go against good opposition. However I think POM and Henry offer too much to be left out of the squad so it might well be horses for courses.

Would love to see Ferris/SOB/POM in a one off game though

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Henry is in with a big shout now. I think a backrow of SOB/Heaslip/Henry is now a serious option for Ireland

Mahatma Geansai

All fit and firing, Ferris starts at 6. After that, you've to put in SOB at 7/8. Then we've to pick one from Heaslip/POM/Henry. Its a great position to be in and there's still another few lads putting their hands up. TOD has been great for Munster but has fallen down Joe's pecking order. Ruddock has been great for Leinster at 6, and Schmidt appears to be a massive fan of Murphy.

awec

Is SOB solely considered a 7 now?

Tox56

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Henry is in with a big shout now. I think a backrow of SOB/Heaslip/Henry is now a serious option for Ireland

Hmm it's a tough one, POM faded a bit as the tournament went on but SOB was just superhuman at 7 before his injury, last few times I remember him playing 6 in a game of any importance I thought he was pretty ordinary. And of course POM was outstanding when he played well. Then there's Ferris

Ultimately all fit Ferris-SOB-Heaslip is our best imo. Last time Ferris and SOB played together we were under different management and SOB has come on leaps and bounds as an all-round 7 since then.

thebaz

awec wrote: »

Not sure POM has overtaken Ferris to be honest. Ferris is just freakishly good.

Ferris in his prime , agree is better .. but not sure he will ever recover fully , hopefully I'm wrong , he's had some serious injuries -as I said if POM bulked up some and Ferris back to his prime, would be great for Ireland.

Hagz

awec wrote: »

Is SOB solely considered a 7 now?

Well it was under Schmidt that he broke onto the scene at 6+8, and we all know that SOB's preferred position is 6, so I wouldn't rule it out.

Conas

About two years ago everyone said O'Brien was not a 7, he was best at ball carrying hence he's a 6 or 8. But now he's excellent at the breakdown, I'm used to him being at 7.

Best backrow is still 6. Ferris 7. O'Brien 8 Heaslip.

Provided they are all fit, that will be the first choice backrow again at the next World Cup.

We have such depth in the backrow, it's scary, and you'd have to feel sorry for the great players who would get dropped, if everyone were fit

Swiwi.

I think the debate around the starting 6/7/8 is a bit boring, IMO it's clearly the traditional Ferris/SOB/Heaslip.

The more interesting Q is the bench, and I don't have the answer at present.

aquascrotum

From what I saw on Fri night Ferris has possibly got bigger in his time out, he's definitely been in the gym at the upper body even while his ankle has been crocked - he's a serious, serious unit. As much as I've come to like the edge POM has brought this series (it's easy to like a player who seems to wear the heart on the sleeve) he can't on the face of it offer the physicality or pace that a fit Fez can, if (!) Fez can stay fit.

It's altogether an interesting conundrum - Henry has surely done enough to remain an option. It's similar to the position on the wings with D. Kearney and in particular Trimble having corking championships in the absence of a couple of Lions. Its up to the lads coming back to show why they should have the jersey off the men currently in possession who have done little wrong. Parachuting players in at the first opportunity for me sends the wrong message, especially given the effect a pat on the back and run of games has done for Trimble - I'm delighted he's gone some of the way to show what he has done for Ulster on a green shirt after looking to be cast off on the autumn tests. Nice for Schmidt to have options and I'll happily leave them to his judgement!

Fireball07

Will Ferris be the same at international level? He's been gone for so long... obviously, at his best, Ferris is just unbelievable.


I would say POM is definitely the next in line, and if Ferris doesn't make it back properly, that POM/SOB/Heaslip is the best back row. Henry next in line....


That's as of now. But with Ruddock having a good season, with Murphy not far from becoming a starter at Leinster, with TOD playing well in Munster, not to mention Henderson who has so much potential, we do have lots of options.

bilston

If Fridays 20 minute cameo is anything to go by Ferris will get back to his best, the trick will be whether his body can hack it.

shuffol

I like the idea of a Henry/SOB/Heaslip backrow. Henry gets through so much work around the park that he'd be an excellent foil for the other two. I thought SOB had to work like a dog in last years 6N and it lessened his effectiveness in attack. POM brings a lot to the lineout though,

Kayless

I actually think the most important thing we learned in this championship is that within reason it doesn't matter who plays because players seem to excel under Joe Schmidt.

Another important point is that Ireland is now a 23 man team on match days which is great to see when you consider how Kidney used to put player on for 2-3 mins at a time. So player's will work harder even for a bench spot and this adds to our depth which is becoming unreal, that fact that someone like POM, Henry or Earls might not make our matchday squad is a testament to the strength in depth Ireland have going into the RWC.

odd_job

Tox56 wrote: »

Ultimately all fit Ferris-SOB-Heaslip is our best imo. Last time Ferris and SOB played together we were under different management and SOB has come on leaps and bounds as an all-round 7 since then.

Agreed last time they played together there wasnt a great balance to the backrow. SOB was only learning to play 7. If Ferris gets back to his best I can see them even better than before

danthefan

All SOB's best performances for Ireland have been when he's started at 7. You have to leave him there imo.

flutered

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

All fit and firing, Ferris starts at 6. After that, you've to put in SOB at 7/8. Then we've to pick one from Heaslip/POM/Henry. Its a great position to be in and there's still another few lads putting their hands up. TOD has been great for Munster but has fallen down Joe's pecking order. Ruddock has been great for Leinster at 6, and Schmidt appears to be a massive fan of Murphy.

what caused tod to fall out of favour, has anyone any idea.

blackdog1

awec wrote: »

Not sure POM has overtaken Ferris to be honest. Ferris is just freakishly good.

Different type of players though. You could see the two of them being rotated depending on what type of game we want to play.

With these 2 it could come down to who is the better impact off the bench? Personally I think fez would be. 2 diff player pom all about breakdown and lineout while fez brings huge physicality and greater pace.

Don't think we'll have all these backrows fit at the same time unfortunately. Also everyone is forgetting henry.

stephen_n

Ferris on form is better than POM in every facet of his game, as good as POM has got, he is nowhere near the class of Ferris. Without a doubt the starting backrow would be SOB-Heaslip-Ferris versatility will decide the bench options though, could be a tough battle.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

stephen_n wrote: »

Ferris on form is better than POM in every facet of his game, as good as POM has got, he is nowhere near the class of Ferris. Without a doubt the starting backrow would be SOB-Heaslip-Ferris versatility will decide the bench options though, could be a tough battle.

Lineout? Stealing ball? POM is better than Ferris at those aspects, even if I agree that Ferris is better on form, a good deal so

Mahatma Geansai

One thing that POM has in his favour over all the other options is his lineout work. He's like a classical French backrow in that regard.

Stan27

will be interesting to see how copeland gets on next year?

neilmulvey

stephen_n wrote: »

Ferris on form is better than POM in every facet of his game, as good as POM has got, he is nowhere near the class of Ferris. Without a doubt the starting backrow would be SOB-Heaslip-Ferris versatility will decide the bench options though, could be a tough battle.

schmidt will pick his team based on the best fit for the gameplan. He showed it with his selections on the wings.

Mahatma Geansai

neilmulvey wrote: »

schmidt will pick his team based on the best fit for the gameplan. He showed it with his selections on the wings.

POM might be a good fit for the wing actually. Much better at hitting rucks than Dave Kearney. :pac:

Mahatma Geansai

Stan27 wrote: »

will be interesting to see how copeland gets on next year?

Hopefully he'll be able to build on his form for Cardiff. It'll be nice to have someone there who might possibly put some pressure on Heaslip. He excells at carrying too which is a weakness in Heaslip's game as an 8.

LeeroyJones

When fitness is no factor it's an obvious Ferris, SOB, Heaslip trio everytime this side of the World Cup.
As eluded to it's those outside of the starting team that makes for an intriguing debate. Hard to go against POM and Henry going to the World Cup so at present we'll more than likely be leaving Ruddock, Murphy, TOD and Copeland at home.
That's working on the assumption of 16 forwards mind you, 4 props, 3 hookers, 4 second rows (inc Henderson) and 5 back rowers

former legend

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Hopefully he'll be able to build on his form for Cardiff. It'll be nice to have someone there who might possibly put some pressure on Heaslip. He excells at carrying too which is a weakness in Heaslip's game as an 8.

Yeah definitely. It's not like Heaslip had more carries or made more metres than any other Irish forward in the Six Nations or anything. Massive gap in his game.

Copeland's priorities this season are (in order):
1) Convince us he's actually good
2) Nail down the Munster #8 jersey
3) Get onto the fringes of the Ireland squad
4) Heaslip to get injured

If all of the above happen, then he's in with a shout of getting a cap.

stephen_n

former legend wrote: »

Yeah definitely. It's not like Heaslip had more carries or made more metres than any other Irish forward in the Six Nations or anything. Massive gap in his game.

Copeland's priorities this season are (in order):
1) Convince us he's actually good
2) Nail down the Munster #8 jersey
3) Get onto the fringes of the Ireland squad
4) Heaslip to get injured

If all of the above happen, then he's in with a shout of getting a cap.

In fairness I'd be surprised if Heaslip tours this summer, so would imagine he'd be in with a shout of a cap then!

former legend

stephen_n wrote: »

In fairness I'd be surprised if Heaslip tours this summer, so would imagine he'd be in with a shout of a cap then!

I've seen a few posts here pretty much expecting a Wolfhounds selection for the summer. I don't see it happening tbh. If anyone is carrying an injury they won't be delaying surgery or anything like that but people hoping for a heap of left - field selections will be disappointed.

trackguy

We've always been blessed with plenty of backrows but there is a serious amount of talent around at the moment. What's more, it's clear that everyone is in the mix.

Heaslip, SOB, Henry, POM, Henderson, J Murphy, TOD, Ruddock, Ferris. That is a stacked roster.

jm08

Hagz wrote: »

Has to be Fez, SOB and Heaslip for me. It was a joy to watch that combination in the world cup and I'd love to see it again.

I didn't enjoy the Welsh game much.

Fireball07

stephen_n wrote: »

Ferris on form is better than POM in every facet of his game, as good as POM has got, he is nowhere near the class of Ferris. Without a doubt the starting backrow would be SOB-Heaslip-Ferris versatility will decide the bench options though, could be a tough battle.

POM is a much better lineout option on both our own ball and opposition ball. He is also a better groundhog.

Where Ferris excels, and blows pretty much everyone out of the water is his physicality. As a ball-carrier, he's almost unstoppable, and he's an absolute tackling machine. Henry and Heaslip are both in great in the tackle area, but Ferris not only brings a huge work rate, but he absolutely smashes people aswell. I think he's the best of the lot, even better than SOB, if he was fit and in his best form.

Fireball07

trackguy wrote: »

We've always been blessed with plenty of backrows but there is a serious amount of talent around at the moment. What's more, it's clear that everyone is in the mix.

Heaslip, SOB, Henry, POM, Henderson, J Murphy, TOD, Ruddock, Ferris. That is a stacked roster.

And it's not like Coughlan or Locky are bad options if we're in a crisis.


Murphy & Ruddock were the players to really come into contention this year, with POM & Henry arguably stepping up another notch. You'd hope that we get a few more next year- possibly Butler, Copeland, Dom Ryan... maybe even Dougall or Diack.

shuffol

former legend wrote: »

I've seen a few posts here pretty much expecting a Wolfhounds selection for the summer. I don't see it happening tbh. If anyone is carrying an injury they won't be delaying surgery or anything like that but people hoping for a heap of left - field selections will be disappointed.

I'd hope they'd give the lions players from last year the summer off, with the exception of bowe. They've played a lot of rugby over the last few years.

bilston

Loads of options at 6 and 7, but I feel we are still light at No.8. It's hard to remember anyone other than Heaslip playing 8 in any test of consequence even as a replacement.

bleg

I'm happy we have a lot of options at backrow and can pick 3 different players for different situations. Over the last decade it has been an area where our players have gotten a lot of long term and career ending injuries. We now have players to fill that void. Great!

sweetthing

bilston wrote: »

Loads of options at 6 and 7, but I feel we are still light at No.8. It's hard to remember anyone other than Heaslip playing 8 in any test of consequence even as a replacement.

Luckily heaslip is clearly made of rubber. Seriously though in a pinch im sure SOB could do a job there...he can do pretty much everything else

Fireball07

bilston wrote: »

Loads of options at 6 and 7, but I feel we are still light at No.8. It's hard to remember anyone other than Heaslip playing 8 in any test of consequence even as a replacement.

It's true... but Heaslip's consistency is a factor too. I really do believe that Coughlan would have slotted in adequately had Heaslip ever needed to be replaced, I think he's a class act. Wilson, too... neither may have been on Heaslip's level, but I think, like POM & Henry, they would have done very good jobs.


Both those players times have probably come and gone, but we've got Copeland coming to Munster, we've got Murphy coming through in Leinster. POM is probably next in line, played very well in America last summer... all those options are untested and until someone really lays down a marker at HC level, we're going to think we're light but I don't see Murphy or POM starting at 8 anytime soon. Copeland maybe, but Coughlan is still doing what he does. McKeon in Connacht, good player too, maybe not international class.

former legend

bilston wrote: »

Loads of options at 6 and 7, but I feel we are still light at No.8. It's hard to remember anyone other than Heaslip playing 8 in any test of consequence even as a replacement.

Just checked it; O'Brien played at 8 against Italy in 2011 (the one we almost lost) when Heaslip was injured but he's been ever-present since. Unbelievable endurance.

dtpc191991

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Quality wise it's Ferris/Heaslip/SOB but interestingly enough I don't think our win record is great against the top sides anytime they've all started together

Austrailia in the World Cup is the only one I think of. It is worth baring in mind they started under only ever Kidney. If Schmidt starts them it could be an entirely different ballgame.

Prawo_Jazdy

dtpc191991 wrote: »

If Schmidt starts them it could be an entirely different ball game.

yeah, he could surprise us all and have them play basketball instead

rockbeast

Fireball07 wrote: »

POM is a much better lineout option on both our own ball and opposition ball. He is also a better groundhog.

Where Ferris excels, and blows pretty much everyone out of the water is his physicality. As a ball-carrier, he's almost unstoppable, and he's an absolute tackling machine. Henry and Heaslip are both in great in the tackle area, but Ferris not only brings a huge work rate, but he absolutely smashes people aswell. I think he's the best of the lot, even better than SOB, if he was fit and in his best form.

Nice to read a fair comment.

Currently I'd drop in Coughlan or Murphy as a replacement if Heaslip was injured - in that order, and I'm a Leinster fan. Coughlan is a specialist and pushing on so, unfortunately, I think his ship has sailed.

If, and only if, Copeland goes to munster and takes 8 jersey off Coughlan then I think he can give Heaslip a run for the Irish shirt. Although, much like Wilson coming back, it may not work out for him. Personally I think Foley will make him a beast.

And I hope he does because I thought there were many occasions this 6N when Heaslip and o'Mahony looked seriously underpowered.

A backline of Ferris, O'Brien and Copeland could, potentially, bash the Boks and English around...

I think these are the kind of selection headaches Joe would relish...

stephen_n

former legend wrote: »

I've seen a few posts here pretty much expecting a Wolfhounds selection for the summer. I don't see it happening tbh. If anyone is carrying an injury they won't be delaying surgery or anything like that but people hoping for a heap of left - field selections will be disappointed.

I would imagine the lions will be rested this summer, given the heavy schedule up to the WC

Fireball07 wrote: »

POM is a much better lineout option on both our own ball and opposition ball. He is also a better groundhog.

Where Ferris excels, and blows pretty much everyone out of the water is his physicality. As a ball-carrier, he's almost unstoppable, and he's an absolute tackling machine. Henry and Heaslip are both in great in the tackle area, but Ferris not only brings a huge work rate, but he absolutely smashes people aswell. I think he's the best of the lot, even better than SOB, if he was fit and in his best form.

With SOB in the backrow we won't need POM groundhog abilities, which would only leave the lineout as an argument for putting him in ahead of Ferris, not something we need given the strengths we already have there. Ferris is by far a better defender, ball carrier and ruck cleaner than POM, so in a balanced backrow with SOB and Heaslip, Ferris is miles ahead.

connemara man

This might be harsh but all the Ferris praising should have the preceeding sentence before he got injured, as we don't know what his form is going to be like. POM has done nothing to warrant being dropped for Ferris when/if Ferris gets upto full speed again. And Ferris will need to be at the top of his game to move POM. I think it'll be a horses for courses selection and it's never going to please everyone. But you know in Joe we trust

Podge_irl

If Ferris gets up to full speed than it's almost irrelevant what POM has or hasn't done (which is not meant as a slight on POM, who has been very good)

If Ferris is fit and in form he starts. End of as far as I'm concerned.