Holding out with reference

jane82

I have given notice and need a reference to secure a new place. The landlord is refusing to give the reference until day of moving. He has no reason to hold out all monies paid on time no damage etc.
Im heading into a situation where on moving day I have nowhere to go. Im thinking the only option is just stay here with children he cant evict straight away and I cant just move my stuff out on the street.
I doubt Id get the reference then but I could atleast get 6 months free rent.He wont answer the phone Iv honestly no idea why. Hes not ptrb registered. Iv had to borrow the deposit for the next place because everywhere wants it upfront to secure the house.
Whats he planning?

djimi

Its quite simple; you tell him that you cannot hand back the keys until he gives you the reference, and leave the ball in his court. Continue to pay rent (on a daily basis) as you dont want to give them any ammunition to use against you.

Or just explain to the new landlord that your old landlord is being awkward and see if they can wait until you move in before you give them the reference. Maybe try and get some other references (from an employer if possible) to give them in the meantime.

jane82

Thanks for that I didnt think of the daily payment.
The problem with the next landlord is nobody will accept you now without references and deposits up front. Telling them you havnt got one because the last landlord was an oddball will just make them think you are trouble.

D3PO

you do realise your LL has ZERO obligation to supply you with a reference.

djimi

D3PO wrote: »

you do realise your LL has ZERO obligation to supply you with a reference.

Zero legal obligation, but honestly why would a landlord not provide a good tenant with a reference? Its quite a dangerous thing to do, considering no reference usually equates to a bad reference in most peoples eyes.

Potatoeman

Offer to let them inspect the house for the reference. They can raise any issues that they might have then.

D3PO

well firstly were assuming that the tenant is a good one, but besides that point some may just not be bothered, or may not want to for whatever personal reasons they have.

My point was there is no obligation to provie one so if an LL wants to act the maggot theres little or nothing the OP or anybody else can do.

The_Morrigan

OP, you could try asking the new LL to ring the existing one for a verbal reference.

When anyone has requested a reference for me (usually employment wise) I've given them the name and number of a person in HR or a director of the company etc and asked them to ring away and ask whatever they wish.

Mrs OBumble

A written reference isn't worth the paper it's written on.

jane82

I know there is no obligation for him to give one. He can come inspect the place qnytime he likes. Infact hes quite fond of just turning up when he wants.
But it seems hes just being spiteful for some evil reason.
There is zero obligation for me to move until the sherriff or police or whoever is legally entitled comes to shift me.
Why wouldnt he just give one though. Even if the house had no roof left on it when he came to inspect is it worth the hassle of saying no?

davo10

If you have given notice to move out on a particular date, is the LL not entitled to receive the keys back on that date and give you back your deposit? Why would you be entitled to stay on beyond that date irrespective of reference being given? LL could have rented it to someone else.

jane82

Good question davo. If I have nowhere to go through no fault of my own I dont move. I cant just put the coat on the kids and saunter out.

The_Morrigan

jane82 wrote: »

Good question davo. If I have nowhere to go through no fault of my own I dont move. I cant just put the coat on the kids and saunter out.

That isn't how it works. The landlord doesn't have to give you a reference for you to leave. You've given your notice, your deposit is payable on your exit day and you satisfying the requirements of another landlord is your responsibility.

sopretty

jane82 wrote: »

I know there is no obligation for him to give one. He can come inspect the place qnytime he likes. Infact hes quite fond of just turning up when he wants.
But it seems hes just being spiteful for some evil reason.
There is zero obligation for me to move until the sherriff or police or whoever is legally entitled comes to shift me.
Why wouldnt he just give one though. Even if the house had no roof left on it when he came to inspect is it worth the hassle of saying no?

I'd say this is why he is waiting until the last minute.

davo10

jane82 wrote: »

. I cant just put the coat on the kids and saunter out.

Having given notice, I would have thought that is exactly what you have to do, that is the point of giving notice, your intention to end the lease and end vacate the house.

jane82

It was his idea to move us on. There was no lease renewed since the first one. He wants to divide the house up and rent the rooms to maximise money now that rents are sky rocketing.

davo10

jane82 wrote: »

It was his idea to move us on. There was no lease renewed since the first one. He wants to divide the house up and rent the rooms to maximise money now that rents are sky rocketing.

The first line of your post is " I have given notice"

convert

If you've given notice that you're moving out on a certain date, then that is what you have to do, unless you can come to an arrangement with the landlord to extend your stay and pay rent daily/weekly until you find somewhere else to live.

jane82 wrote: »

. Im thinking the only option is just stay here with children he cant evict straight away and I cant just move my stuff out on the street.
I doubt Id get the reference then but I could atleast [sic] get 6 months free rent.

The above would have me a little worried, and the last sentence really rings alarm bells for me.

Iv had to borrow the deposit for the next place because everywhere wants it upfront to secure the house.

This is exceptionally common and standard practice for most rentals. Tenants who can't manage to put together a deposit for a new place are, in my experience, a little more unreliable than those who can. Yes, I am aware that a lot of people are struggling to just get by with the basics at the moment, but if someone has a problem providing a deposit, then that may cast doubt on their ability (and reliability) to pay rent on time each week/month.

mlumley

If your LL is not registered with the PRTB then he is breaking the law. Tell him you will report him for not registering the tenancy. He has more to lose than you. Tell him if he gives you a good reference, you'll not report him for 1 month, to give him time to register.

Any shady LL would give in to the threat of a large fine.

Go for it, YOU have nothing to loose.

You can also tell him u will be on to the tax man as well.

He'll be so scared, he'll be in Aldi looking for nappies.

Good luck to you, these chancers have to be held to account.

lso, phone threshold, I think its called. They give housing advice.

jane82

Yeah he told us we had two months to go. We gave notice after about two weeks because the way houses are going you have to be ready to move straight in they are gone within hours of being advertised.
There is honestly no reason for not giving a reference. There wont be a reason for non return of deposit.
I had a builder who was doing work here remark about how tough it was to get money out of him.

Gatling

jane82 wrote: »

Yeah he told us we had two months to go. We gave notice after about two weeks because the way houses are going you have to be ready to move straight in they are gone within hours of being advertised.
There is honestly no reason for not giving a reference. There wont be a reason for non return of deposit.
I had a builder who was doing work here remark about how tough it was to get money out of him.

That doesn't mean you get to literally get to squat in his property past the agreed vacate date unless he gives you a reference

jane82

Gatling wrote: »

That doesn't mean you get to literally get to squat in his property past the agreed vacate date unless he gives you a reference

It doesnt. It doesnt mean I can invite a traveller to park up in the driveway either but sure writing a reference only takes 5 minutes. Ever try move a caravan off your driveway?

The_Morrigan

jane82 wrote: »

It doesnt. It doesnt mean I can invite a traveller to park up in the driveway either but sure writing a reference only takes 5 minutes. Ever try move a caravan off your driveway?

You are constantly missing the point.
You are not entitled to a reference and the landlord is well within his rights to say no.

Mod Note: anymore mention of illegal activity from you and I will close your thread. You can't have a tantrum because you are not getting what you want, overstay without paying rent or invite squatters onto the landlords property.

sligoface

In OP's defense, her landlord is unregistered and not paying tax on his rental income, and also shows up at the property without giving notice. He is the one breaking the rules left right and center, and on top of that is making the OP leave so he can rent out each room seperately to get even more tax free income. The least he could do is give her a note to help her get a new place. I think that's all she really wants to do, and the suggestions of squatting etc. are really due to frustration. Being forced to move and then denied a reference for no good reason is a lot of hassle to give someone, and it doesn't even make sense because he wants the person out. If she cannot get a new place without a reference she will have to stay where she is, won't she?

It's possible he does not want to give a written reference because he isn't registered with the PRTB and wants no paper trail, even though the letter would only be seen by you and your new LL. But more likely he's just an @-hole. Do you have a rent book or receipts? If you do you should be fine. Tell him you want the reference or you'll be sending copies of these to the PRTB and Revenue.

If that doesn't work, when asked for a written reference I would tell the truth, that you asked for one but your landlord is being awkward and you think it may because he is not registered with the PRTB, but then say, here is my rent book/receipts and here is his contact info if you want to speak to him. Show them the landlords name as written on your rent book or rental agreement so they see it is defo the LL and not your mate or something.

If possible, also obtain a reference letter from a previous landlord or employer.

I always hear LLs complaining about the laws favoring tenants. But if they do, it is because so many landlords are atrocious and leave people in bad situatuions. Funny how tenants need references but landlords don't, and can easily rent places without registering or paying tax on them or having a BER. And then when you move in, if your stove, toilet, shower, boiler, etc. break and are not fixed, you're still expected to pay rent. There is typically no way for tenants to know if the landlord maintains and repairs the property properly until they are in the lease, but the landlord is entitled to references beforehand from any prospective renters previous landlord to ensure that they paid rent on time and didn't damage the property. Clearly this double standard does not favor tenants.

I can tell you if I was asked to give references on my previous landlords I wouldn't recommend any of them whatsoever, Irish landlords in my experience rareely obey the rules (esp. in regards to 24 hrs notice before entering a property) and rarely maintain the property the way they should.

IMO since landlords are requiring references now along with deposits, they should be legally required to provide one when a tenant moves out, same as they are required to return the deposit. At the end of tenancy, if the tenant paid rent in full, and kept the property in good condition they by all means should be entitled to something to indicate that.

The_Morrigan

Sligoface...at no point did the OP mention that the landlord is evading tax or unregistered.
Regardless if that, two wrongs do not make a right and the OP can't just decide to ignore her obligations because the landlord isn't providing something that he isn't even obliged to do.

Shadylou

I would definitely tell the landlord that you're reporting him to the revenue if he doesn't give you the reference. And as for squatting in the house, you have to look after your kids first and foremost and ask yourself if it's worth the stress on the kids of having an angry landlord or whether you'd be better off to report him, cut your losses and leave

murphaph

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A written reference isn't worth the paper it's written on.

But a quick conversation with the tenant's second last landlord is incredibly valuable. He'll dish any dirt he has as he doesn't need to get rid of them.

murphaph

mlumley wrote: »

If your LL is not registered with the PRTB then he is breaking the law. Tell him you will report him for not registering the tenancy. He has more to lose than you. Tell him if he gives you a good reference, you'll not report him for 1 month, to give him time to register.

Any shady LL would give in to the threat of a large fine.

Go for it, YOU have nothing to loose.

You can also tell him u will be on to the tax man as well.

He'll be so scared, he'll be in Aldi looking for nappies.

Good luck to you, these chancers have to be held to account.

lso, phone threshold, I think its called. They give housing advice.

The landlord has nothing to fear from the PRTB.

davo10

djimi wrote: »

Its quite simple; you tell him that you cannot hand back the keys until he gives you the reference, and leave the ball in his court. Continue to pay rent (on a daily basis) .

"I have given notice" OP's words, they could not be simpler. A reference is not an entitlement, LL would not be evicting OP on that date.

davo10

mlumley wrote: »

If your LL is not registered with the PRTB then he is breaking the law. Tell him you will report him for not registering the tenancy. He has more to lose than you. Tell him if he gives you a good reference, you'll not report him for 1 month, to give him time to register.

Any shady LL would give in to the threat of a large fine.

Go for it, YOU have nothing to loose.

You can also tell him u will be on to the tax man as well.

He'll be so scared, he'll be in Aldi looking for nappies.

Good luck to you, these chancers have to be held to account.

lso, phone threshold, I think its called. They give housing advice.

Ah, I think you are giving PRTB to much credit. If OP says that, the LL can register today.

Why do you think LL is not paying tax?

davo10

sligoface wrote: »

In OP's defense, her landlord is unregistered and not paying tax on his rental income, and also shows up at the property without giving notice. He is the one breaking the rules left right and center

IMO since landlords are requiring references now along with deposits, they should be legally required to provide one when a tenant moves out, same as they are required to return the deposit.

Wow, all that from OPs posts?.

Ah, how do you know he is not paying tax? LL does not need notice to ring the doorbell, he does need notice to inspect the property.

If references were a legal requirement it would be mandatory for tenants to have one, how would that work if the reference was a bad one?, the LL's would have far more influence over the tenant's ability to rent, is that what you want?

suds1984

Would the old landlord provide a reference if she gives the new landlord his phone number and got the new landlord to ring him? If got on the spot the old landlord might give the reference?

jane82

Old landlord lives in Germany(hes a musician) and very hard to get a hold of plus its that long ago I doubt he remembers us.
We are trying to find the one before that but Im sure the new landlords would want to know why the last landlord didnt give us one and the only landlord to give one is 10 years ago.

davo10

jane82 wrote: »

Old landlord lives in Germany(hes a musician) and very hard to get a hold of plus its that long ago I doubt he remembers us.
We are trying to find the one before that but Im sure the new landlords would want to know why the last landlord didnt give us one and the only landlord to give one is 10 years ago.

Jane, giving a reference is quick, easy and in LLs best interest if he wants you out, there are only two reasons why he wouldn't give you one, apathy and discontent.

djimi

jane82 wrote: »

Old landlord lives in Germany(hes a musician) and very hard to get a hold of plus its that long ago I doubt he remembers us.
We are trying to find the one before that but Im sure the new landlords would want to know why the last landlord didnt give us one and the only landlord to give one is 10 years ago.

I think Suds means your current landlord. Tbh if it were me Id be giving your new landlord your current landlords number and telling them to ring them. You have nothing to lose anyway; no reference is about the same as a bad reference, so even if the current landlord decides to bad mouth you then you really are no worse off.

djimi

davo10 wrote: »

"I have given notice" OP's words, they could not be simpler. A reference is not an entitlement, LL would not be evicting OP on that date.

Reference is not an entitlement, but nobody in their right mind is going to leave a property if it means being homeless. What is legally right and what the tenant will get away with are two very different things in Ireland, and if the tenant turns around and decides that they are not leaving the property until they get their written reference then there is sweet FA that the landlord can do about it.

I know its not right to condone such behaviour, but if the alternative is being out on the street with nowhere to go because the landlord is acting the prick then I dont see that the OP has any other option.

jane82

Got him on the phone just there. He said "look I cant give you a reference before you 're out. What if you leave a load of rubbish behind or damage something on purpose Ive had to get skips after tenants moved before". Then he hung up.

djimi

While I see his point, counter with the fact that you cant move out until you get a reference, and then try to come to some compromise. Clean the place in advance and let him inspect it a few days before you move out.

davo10

djimi wrote: »

nobody in their right mind is going to leave a property if it means being homeless. What is legally right and what the tenant will get away with are two very different things in Ireland, and if the tenant turns around and decides that they are not leaving the property until they get their written reference then there is sweet FA that the landlord can do about it.
.

Hey, this is not a case of LL trying to evict a tenant nor a tenant invoking their legal right, OP has given notice to be out on a certain date, why would LL not be able to take possession on that day? It is OPs responsibility to find new accommodation.

djimi

davo10 wrote: »

Hey, this is not a case of LL trying to evict a tenant nor a tenant invoking their legal right, OP has given notice to be out on a certain date, why would LL not be able to take possession on that day?

Because that is the law that we have in Ireland. An overholding tenant is still a tenant and any attempts to remove them against their will (before the PRTB, courts get involved) will be seen as an illegal eviction and the landlord will be punished as such. Its a mindnumbingly **** system that we have, but welcome to the wonderful world of renting in Ireland...!

davo10

djimi wrote: »

While I see his point, counter with the fact that you cant move out until you get a reference, and then try to come to some compromise. Clean the place in advance and let him inspect it a few days before you move out.

Simple statement, " I have given notice"

djimi

davo10 wrote: »

Simple statement, " I have given notice"

And?

davo10

djimi wrote: »

Because that is the law that we have in Ireland. An overholding tenant is still a tenant and any attempts to remove them against their will (before the PRTB, courts get involved) will be seen as an illegal eviction and the landlord will be punished as such. Its a mindnumbingly **** system that we have, but welcome to the wonderful world of renting in Ireland...!

Which law are you referring to? complete BS, OP has given notice, that means she informed LL she would be ending lease and moving out on a certain date, why in your opinion would she be entitled to stay longer?

davo10

djimi wrote: »

And?

Could OPs statement be any simpler for you? " I have given notice", there it is again.

djimi

davo10 wrote: »

Which law are you referring to? complete BS, OP has given notice, that means she informed LL she would be ending lease and moving out on a certain date, why in your opinion would she be entitled to stay longer?

She isnt entitled to stay longer. But likewise the landlord isnt entitled to forcefully remove her if she decides not to go, and can be done for illegal eviction if they dont follow the same process that they would have to take for any other tenant. Like I said, its a messed up system that we have.

djimi

davo10 wrote: »

Could OPs statement be any simpler for you? " I have given notice", there it is again.

You can repeat it as often as you like; its not going to mean any more than it did the first time.

davo10

jane82 wrote: »

Got him on the phone just there. He said "look I cant give you a reference before you 're out. What if you leave a load of rubbish behind or damage something on purpose Ive had to get skips after tenants moved before". Then he hung up.

What is the problem with this? Having posted that you would invite others to park on his driveway I think his position is justified.

davo10

djimi wrote: »

You can repeat it as often as you like; its not going to mean any more than it did the first time.

Nor any less.

davo10

djimi wrote: »

She isnt entitled to stay longer. But likewise the landlord isnt entitled to forcefully remove her if she decides not to go, and can be done for illegal eviction if they dont follow the same process that they would have to take for any other tenant. Like I said, its a messed up system that we have.

Complete BS, What law were you referring to that allows an tenant to stay on beyond the notice THEY GAVE, to end a tenancy.? OP has given notice to end a contract.

djimi

davo10 wrote: »

Complete BS, What law were you referring to that allows an tenant to stay on beyond the notice THEY GAVE, to end a tenancy.? OP has given notice to end a contract.

Okay, youre missing the point here. There is no law that allows a tenant to stay beyond there notice. There is, however, a legal system that prevents a landlord from forcefully removing an overholding tenant before they have followed the full legal process to evict them.

If you think that it is complete BS then go off and have a read of all the tenants who are only too adept at playing the system. There have been plenty of stories on here of them; landlords who have gone for months without rent because they have tenants that they cannot legally evict until the PRTB and courts says so.

Youre confusing the law with the system and making the incorrect assumption that they work together in tandem. When it comes to renting in Ireland, they very much do not.

jane82

My boyfriend is fuming he left a voicemail on the landlords phone telling him he will be vacating the house when he finds a new one. He told him its in his best interest to get the reference over as soon as possible. Hes gone and stormed out of the house. He does know a couple of travellers from his work but I dont think he will move them in.