***Important*** Feedback Required

Myrddin

Howdy all

So, we've decided to seek your sage wisdom & advice with regards to a forum we have that's not doing very well. That forum, is the Steam & Valve forum, & we started a discussion after seeing this thread...in which it's pretty clear, that there's some issues we need to address.

Initially, the Steam & Valve forum was proposed as a way of segregating Steam, as a subject, away from the Games forum. The Games forum is here to discuss just that...games. With the imminent arrival of Steam Box hardware, & the likes of Steam OS...we figured it'd be nice to have a place to discuss basically everything Steam, & not clutter up the Games forum with such talk. The 'Valve' element of the Steam & Valve forum, came about as we essentially closed the doors of the dead/flailing Half Life & Counter Strike forums...in order to make way for Steam & valve. So rather than losing any existing community (however small), we thought allowing Valve chat in Steam & Valve would work in keeping the door open for such discussion.

There was to be (other than older Valve titles), no games chat in Steam & Valve...because we didn't want to in any way affect this forum, so Steam & Valve was left with Steam (accounts/issues etc), Steam Box (hardware config & setup), Steam OS (config & setup), Steam Sales (not strictly about a game(s) so Steam seemed a good place), Steam Trades (to discuss the trading of games & items), Valve (older Valve titles) & basically anything related to Steam but not specifically a game(s).

So, fast forward to today, it's six months or so on...& it hasn't exactly worked to plan. We have a forum with no established identity, sparse posting, & users publicly making those same observations. So, what's wrong with the forum, & why aren't people using it? There's possibly quite a few explanations to these questions...maybe those subjects just don't generate the volume of chat we expected? Maybe people are confused about what the forum is there for? Maybe people view it as a ghost town now & are less inclined to post in it? All we know is, something needs to be done about it, & after our own private chat, it's time we sought the advise of your good selves.

Ok, to bring you up to speed...our own private chat has yielded some good suggestions, so we'd like to run them by you & get your thoughts if possible. Perhaps you'll agree with what we have is a good starting point, or perhaps you'll have some entirely different ideas about what to do....the point is, anything you can say is helpful...provided it's constructive feedback

1) Ok, firstly...rather than just limiting pc gaming chat in Steam & Valve to just old Valve games...we'd like to throw the doors open & allow a wider scope of gaming chat. This forum covers the cutting edge of games discussion, the vast majority of threads are about brand new or even upcoming releases. Would it harm this forum if we allowed Steam & Valve to cater to pc games that are out of the limelight? We don't think so....so we propose to allow Steam & Valve to cover not just valve games, but all pc games (provided they are older than's normally talked about in this forum).

If a thread about a two year old game popped up in this forum, it'd be swalled up very quickly with all the more current threads, & end up on page two very fast. Therefore, kicking a thread like that over to Steam & valve, will give that thread a better chance to generate some decent chat, & stay current for longer there (as the thread turnover will likely be slower). If a thread about a brand new game pops up in Steam & Valve, the mods will move it to this forum...& similarly, if a thread about an older game pops up in this forum, then the mods here might kick it over to Steam & Valve. There would be a healthy amount of discretion applied by the relevant mods, but it would be hoped that both forums would compliment each other...rather than conflict with each other.

Also, the Steam & Valve forum would continue covering its existing subjects, so all of the above would remain in that forum too...but with more game chat this time.

2) Given the above changes, the name Steam & Valve wouldn't really fit any longer. We propose to rename the forum, as the 'PC Gaming' forum.

3) As the PC is a gaming platform, it'd be best if the PC Gaming forum was located alongside the other hardware platform forums, like Nintendo, Sony & Xbox. So we propose to move the PC Gaming forum, to live alongside the existing hardware platform forums. So we'd have PC Gaming, Nintendo, Sony & Xbox all living in the same sub-category, which is nice & intuitive, as opposed ot having the console platforms where they are, & the PC Gaming forum up away from them.

4) Finally, the 'Consoles' sub-category, which currently houses Nintendo, Playstation & Xbox...wouldn't be a great name if we were to have PC Gaming living there. So we propose to rename the 'Consoles' sub-category, to 'Gaming Platforms' which is more diverse, & not limited to just consoles.

So, that's where we are at the moment. We'd really appreciate any thoughts & feedback on it, again, just keep it constructive

Cheers folks
Myrddin

K.O.Kiki

Can we ban anyone who makes a "PC gaming master race" comment from Games and direct them to PC Gaming? :pac:

Magill

Yeah, sounds like a good idea to me.

degrassinoel

I think there are too many subforums in the games category anyway.

Condensing them into a more active shorter list of fora would be good idea.

What happens when there's a multiplatform game that everyone wants to talk about? let's face it, that happens with every second release. Look at XCOM and Diablo. Those two topics alone are cross platform and have had a great discussion going for over two years with players of all calibre, pc and consoles alike.

If all the subsections of games were condensed into three or four subforums of Games you would have a lot more activity on those four than what you have on thirty or so subforums atm.

just my 2 cents

MadYaker

I don't think that forum is necessary at the moment. Maybe when the steam box is released and has established itself as another major platform like xbox and PS then the forum would thrive. We don't have an EA/Origin forum, so why do we need one for Steam and Valve.

Myrddin

degrassinoel wrote: »

What happens when there's a multiplatform game that everyone wants to talk about? let's face it, that happens with every second release. Look at XCOM and Diablo. Those two topics alone are cross platform and have had a great discussion going for over two years with players of all calibre, pc and consoles alike.

I think each thread will would have to be judged on its own merits, & that healthy dose of discretion I mentioned will definitely apply. If the thread is very active & is multi-platform, I don't see any reason why it would have to move to another forum

If all the subsections of games were condensed into three or four subforums of Games you would have a lot more activity on those four than what you have on thirty or so subforums atm.

just my 2 cents

Do you mean forums like RPG's, Fighting Games, Massively Multiplayer, MOBA etc etc all as subforums of this main Games forum? To do that there'd be a ton of listed subforums showing at the top of the screen, thus reducing what exists on page 1 greatly...

Cheers for the feedback

Myrddin

MadYaker wrote: »

I don't think that forum is necessary at the moment. Maybe when the steam box is released and has established itself as another major platform like xbox and PS then the forum would thrive. We don't have an EA/Origin forum, so why do we need one for Steam and Valve.

The problem is, Steam Box is never going to establish itself as a 'platform'...it's a pc after all, nothing different from what's already out there. What we're proposing is to rename the forum, open it up to games chat that would disappear quickly from this forum, & as you mention, even include the likes of Origin stuff in there too. It would be PC Gaming, so anything & everything related to gaming on a pc, including the games themselves that are out of the limelight.

johnny_ultimate

If you have any comments about how the games forum is / isn't working in relation to the category at large, feel free to chime in. The last thing we want to do is break what isn't broken, so your honest feedback is really appreciated on this one There is always merit in having some division - the console forums have worked really well since they were revamped a few years ago, and helped keep other forums on track - but it's up to you folks as much as us to figure out the balance! There's a big and knowledgable PC userbase here, and if you feel there's any topics being drowned out in the current structure that's what this theoretical revamp would try and address.

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Can we ban anyone who makes a "PC gaming master race" comment from Games and direct them to PC Gaming? :pac:

Seriously considering adding a 'no master race memes or derivatives' rule to the games charter

(Also banning the word fanboy )

Kiith

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Seriously considering adding a 'no master race memes or derivatives' rule to the games charter :pac:

But everyone in the forum will belong to the same race, so we can all raise our glasses of cognac, tip out top hats, and laugh at the filthy console peasants :P

Seriously though, i think it's a good idea. Pc Gaming is as big a topic as any of the other platforms, and it won't do any damage to the Games forum itself. I personally look forward to somewhere i can constantly rant about how brilliant Homeworld, Freespace 2 and System Shock are...to anyone who listens

sweetie

sounds sensible to me

super_furry

Honestly I don't see the point. If it succeeds then it will do so at the cost of the Games forum with PC gaming discussion and much of the multi-platform discussion both being shifted off there. All you have to do is look at the front page to see that multi-platform discussion on games like Diablo, Titanfall, X-Com and Hearthstone (soon to be iPad and Android) are all thriving here, due in no small part to the discussions on the PC version. You move those discussion away to a separate forum and they'll die quickly here. I think the gaming forums are already too diversified, having been pulled back together after a similar move was attempted some years ago.

Part of the reason that the console forums are doing well is because they don't just cover one system, they cover multiple systems over several generations - the proposed PC Gaming forum won't. The older PC games are the province of Arcade and Retro. There's also the fact those forums play host to technical, set-up and hardware discussion and again you're not going to get those kind of discussion in a PC Gaming forum because they're already more that well covered in the Computers and Technology section of the Tech forums.

The way I see it, if the Valve and Steam forum is dying then let it die. Trying to save it in this manner with just hurt the Games forum.

Myrddin

super_furry wrote: »

Honestly I don't see the point. If it succeeds then it will do so at the cost of the Games forum with PC gaming discussion and much of the multi-platform discussion both being shifted off there. All you have to do is look at the front page to see that multi-platform discussion on games like Diablo, Titanfall, X-Com and Hearthstone (soon to be iPad and Android) are all thriving here, due in no small part to the discussions on the PC version. You move those discussion away to a separate forum and they'll die quickly here. I think the gaming forums are already too diversified, having been pulled back together after a similar move was attempted some years ago.

But such threads wouldn't be being moved, if they're thriving here in this forum then that's where they would stay. But for how long will they thrive, will they still be thriving in a year, or two, or three? Probably not, in which case...they become more niche topics of discussion which could potentially live on in the PC Gaming forum...rather than remain in this forum on page 12, swallowed up by far more recent games.

Part of the reason that the console forums are doing well is because they don't just cover one system, they cover multiple systems over several generations - the proposed PC Gaming forum won't. The older PC games are the province of Arcade and Retro. There's also the fact those forums play host to technical, set-up and hardware discussion and again you're not going to get those kind of discussion in a PC Gaming forum because they're already more that well covered in the Computers and Technology section of the Tech forums.

The console forums don't really cater to retro games though, Arcade & Retro does...& it does it well at that. The console forums tick along with mostly current/recent topics. Regards the tech side, I agree that any & all tech discussion (on an in depth level) is really the domain of the Tech forums...this is Games after all

The way I see it, if the Valve and Steam forum is dying then let it die. Trying to save it in this manner with just hurt the Games forum.

I'm not sure I'd agree that what we're proposing will affect the Games forum in any way...it certainly isn't the intent. Would anyone who is a regular on the Games forum notice if there was a discussion about a two or three year old game happening in PC Gaming? You might be entirely right...we'll only know if we try though

degrassinoel

Myrddin wrote: »

I think each thread will would have to be judged on its own merits, & that healthy dose of discretion I mentioned will definitely apply. If the thread is very active & is multi-platform, I don't see any reason why it would have to move to another forum



Do you mean forums like RPG's, Fighting Games, Massively Multiplayer, MOBA etc etc all as subforums of this main Games forum? To do that there'd be a ton of listed subforums showing at the top of the screen, thus reducing what exists on page 1 greatly...

Cheers for the feedback

yes exactly those forums
Fewer forums, more activity is the point i was aiming at.

there are quite a few inactive/slow/dead forums in the games category atm which could probably be closed without anyone but a moderator even noticing.

I think segregating the pc and console is just gonna be a flop. Games(this forum) is active and if anything the inactives ones should go the way of the dodo, and if you're overburdened with mod stuff, you'll have plenty of unemployed forumless mods to pick and choose from too :P

Magill

Nah, most of those forums are relatively active compared to a lot of the sub forums of other topics on boards. Merging them would likely kill off any sort of future discussions on those games. It would also turn the sub forum into a mess of "Superthreads" imo.

The PC Gaming forum would suit as it should leave the games forum intact... but also open the door for more PC specific discussions.

marco_polo

Definately keep all the main game threads here, but I do think a PC Gaming forum would be a better fit than the Steam one and would probably sustain just about enough traffic to become a sustainable forum much like the xbox and ps ones.

Kiith

It would also be handy for finding pc players for recent games, just like in the console forums. A list of pc Titanfall players would be great.

CastorTroy

I think one method of getting traffic to a PC forum would be with the bargains thread. As has been mentioned previously, the Bargains thread on the Games forum is mostly PC games anyway. The Nintendo subforum has its own bargains thread which works really well there, in my opinion. So if each platform's subforum had its own bargains thread away from the main forum instead of the one thread in the main forum it would help those subforums. (Please put away the torches and pitchforks)

But also maybe use the PC forum to create a thread for cd key sites, including experiences with them, reviews and which ones are safe to use.

And a thread where people who are relatively new to PC gaming can ask questions about setup for playing games or ask about their specs for games. I don't mean how to go about building as there is the separate forum for that, but maybe a guide as to what options someone could turn down or off if the game was running slow.

Of course we have the busy threads then around sale time. But again, that thread was pretty Steam specific even though all the other sites had their sales at the same time.

mewso

As someone who is jaded by AAA games these days I see the real distinction being in game types. The main forum should be for cross platform AAA games (as it generally is anyway) and sub forums of genres - RPG, Action, Adventure etc. I know there can be confusion over game types and blurred lines but in most cases it is relatively clear. It's a bit of a mess really and a difficult one to fix but when you have a more or less dead RPG forum, an Elder Scrolls sub-forum below that and a Skyrim thread in the main games forum you have to wonder. Things like discussion on the new Thief game being good can stay here in Games and people can discuss the proper Thief games in an Action/Stealth forum for example

Robert ninja

The whole "Games" master category on boards.ie has been convoluted for as long as I can remember. The minute I saw the Steam forum pop up in it I knew it was weird that it wasn't just a PC forum. Anyway, I think the proposed changes are obviously the better way to go.

Mr Bloat

I think with the Steam and Valve forum, the modes tried to create a solution for which there is no problem. To take each item listed in the OP in turn:

1) I think that the attraction of the Steam box has been vastly overestimated (at least for the foreseeable future). What discussion there is on it (and most other Steam/Valve topics) could easily be covered in a megathread within the Games forum. Other topics like Steam Account issues could also be covered in a single thread, it's not as if they pop up regularly. How many times does a thread about an old game pop up? Surely not often enough to warrant a forum dedicated to it, especially when there is a forum dedicated to retro gaming already.

2) If the S&V forum is renamed to PC Gaming, it's going to create confusion. People won't know that it is primarily there to discuss older PC games and the like. If it is PC Hardware people want to discuss, the PC Building and Upgrading forum already caters for that.

3) If the forum change is going to go ahead I suppose this would be the logical way to apply it.

4) See 3.

All in all, I think splitting anything away from the main Gaming forum is a bad idea. As others have already said, there are too many sub-forums within Games already. Creating a PC Gaming forum will do nothing but take traffic away from forums already dedicated to discussing hardware and older games.

Ape Lincoln

There's a gaming bargains thread in the games forum and most of the posts are about Steam

I've nowt against Steam mind.

Myrddin

Thanks for all the feedback so far folks, it makes interesting reading & it's all helpful.

mewso wrote: »

It's a bit of a mess really and a difficult one to fix but when you have a more or less dead RPG forum, an Elder Scrolls sub-forum below that and a Skyrim thread in the main games forum you have to wonder.

That's a fair point, & when spelled out like that, you do indeed have to wonder. Over the last while we've gotten rid of several forums that were dead, Resident Evil, Command & Conquer, Game Reviews, Counter Strike, Half Life, Sega, Metal Gear Solid, etc....all more or less dead. It is an ongoing kind of thing though, & before retiring a forum, we like to be sure that it's definitely beyond saving, & that all avenues have been explored in attempting to save it.

We will, in time, get around to the RPG's forum & evaluate it

Mr Bloat wrote: »

I think with the Steam and Valve forum, the modes tried to create a solution for which there is no problem. To take each item listed in the OP in turn:

1) I think that the attraction of the Steam box has been vastly overestimated (at least for the foreseeable future). What discussion there is on it (and most other Steam/Valve topics) could easily be covered in a megathread within the Games forum. Other topics like Steam Account issues could also be covered in a single thread, it's not as if they pop up regularly. How many times does a thread about an old game pop up? Surely not often enough to warrant a forum dedicated to it, especially when there is a forum dedicated to retro gaming already.

You're quite correct in that at the time of the Steam & Valve forums inception, there was no real demand for it (Steam Box wasn't out yet, Steam OS wasn't out yet etc)...but the idea was that we got the forum up & running, & make people aware of its existence, so that when these products came to light...they instantly had somewhere to live & an existing userbase ready to chat about them.

Regards the frequency of threads about old games, I think you'd be surprised about how well such threads could potentially thrive in an environment different to one this forum provides. People are far less likely to bother starting a thread about an older game here in Games, as they know it'll be swallowed up within a few hours/a day & be on page 2 before it ever got going. But give people an environment where they know they can comfortably talk about older games (and by older we mean just out of the limelight, it doesn't have to be a text based adventure ) & they just might, be more inclined to do so.

Nothing is certain, & you could end up being completely right...but at least if we try something, we can say we tried & failed...rather than not bothering at all.

2) If the S&V forum is renamed to PC Gaming, it's going to create confusion. People won't know that it is primarily there to discuss older PC games and the like. If it is PC Hardware people want to discuss, the PC Building and Upgrading forum already caters for that.

Well the mods there will have a charter in place that defines the nature of the forum, & for newer users who wouldn't be familiar with how it works, threads can be moved & the user advised. Tis all a learning process Regards discussing hardware, no, that's not what the forum would be for...as you said it's already catered to in Tech so we're mindful of creating any conflict there.

There might be threads about having problems runnign certain games or whatever, & naturally there would be an element of hardware chat that'd creep in there, like "What os/gfx card are you using", "try updating your drivers" & all that kind of thing, which I think should be perfectly fine. Anything further than that though, & it should be sent over to Tech.

All in all, I think splitting anything away from the main Gaming forum is a bad idea. As others have already said, there are too many sub-forums within Games already. Creating a PC Gaming forum will do nothing but take traffic away from forums already dedicated to discussing hardware and older games.

You say its a bad idea to split anything away from the main Games forum, but we're not splitting anything away We're proposing to allow the kinds of discussion to happen in PC Gaming that aren't happening here (somewhat older games, & everything related to pc gaming that isn't about new/current games etc). Also, there are examples of forums that have split content away from Games that are thriving, & in no way affecting this forum - Fighting Games, MOBA, Arcade & Retro, Massively Multiplayer, etc....so it can work, given the right set of circumstances.

It's been mentioned a few times already that there are too many forums within the Games category, & as I mentioned above, we will look at that on an ongoing basis...if it's possible to simplify it down without losing any scope, that's generally the approach we take...but it's a process that has to be done right, so it takes time

Kur4mA

Simples.

Create a poll asking if people are going to bother their arse getting a Steam Box and/or installing Steam OS. I think you'll mostly find the majority of people are not going to bother for the foreseeable future. In other words, a dedicated Steam & Valve forum isn't actually needed and you guys are over-thinking this far too much.

Myrddin

kyub wrote: »

Simples.

Create a poll asking if people are going to bother their arse getting a Steam Box and/or installing Steam OS. I think you'll mostly find the majority of people are not going to bother for the foreseeable future.

Bit late for that, considering the forum already exists

In other words, a dedicated Steam & Valve forum isn't actually needed

Kind of already established that

and you guys are over-thinking this far too much.

Perhaps, not the worst crime in the world to be accused of though Given the Steam forum now exists, I take it by that post you'd just wrap the forum up & take no further action? While that's certainly one option, I think without at least having this discussion, it'd be a shame incase there were any missed opportunities for creating chat that might splinter off from what's already happening in this forum...we are appreciative of the feedback though, & will happily listen to any ideas anyone might have

Lone Stone

Bleh its all about game's merge them into one forum. Im a primarily pc gamer, and i only ever come to this games forum & the mmo one, no need for all the categories.

Myrddin

Lone Stone wrote: »

Bleh its all about game's merge them into one forum. Im a primarily pc gamer, and i only ever come to this games forum & the mmo one, no need for all the categories.

Merge what exactly into one forum? Surely the category as a whole can't be realistically condensed into one forum... I'm all for paring back the list of forums, & making the category more intuitive to navigate...but I'd need specifics

Kiith

Lone Stone wrote: »

Bleh its all about game's merge them into one forum. Im a primarily pc gamer, and i only ever come to this games forum & the mmo one, no need for all the categories.

That doesn't work imo though. I've used other forums in the past, where games have a single thread, and everything is in one forum. It's a nightmare to find view it, and talk of anything bar the newest releases disappears in minutes.

Cuddlesworth

And this is when I find out that the forum layout I've been using hasn't had a menu update in well over a year. And I don't like the new one.

Shiminay

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

And this is when I find out that the forum layout I've been using hasn't had a menu update in well over a year. And I don't like the new one.

I say this with the greatest of respect and I am genuinely not trying to troll, but it's not like the site hasn't spent the last 4 years saying "old menus will be going away and won't be getting updated and will stop working"

But that's besides the point.

I'm in two minds about this. There's a lot of sense in renaming the Steam forum to PC Gaming and moving it to the "Platforms" sub-cat (rename Consoles to Platforms and move the "mobile" forum into this area too).

We also need to remember that the Games category doesn't just cater to computer games.

I may put my work hat on and take a look at a re-organisation with the CMods - I've mostly left it in your hands because you've been really pro-active with it these last couple of years

Myrddin

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

And this is when I find out that the forum layout I've been using hasn't had a menu update in well over a year. And I don't like the new one.

Is that the skin you're using you mean? If so, yep, all the older skins are nowno longer supported.

We're perfectly happy to discuss the category as a whole & gain insight into how it can be improved, but right now, today, if we can stick to the PC Gaming forum proposal as laid out in the op...it'd be appreciated

Myrddin

Shiminay wrote: »

I may put my work hat on and take a look at a re-organisation with the CMods - I've mostly left it in your hands because you've been really pro-active with it these last couple of years

That too would be wholly welcome It's clear from users comments, there's definite scope for discussion on improving it anyway

ShadowHearth

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Can we ban anyone who makes a "PC gaming master race" comment from Games and direct them to PC Gaming? :pac:

Can we just Lock away anyone who says that PC gaming overpriced and too complicated. :pac:


On topic: I sort of liked idea of Pc gaming forum before, but now I dont really want it.
From my own experience I noticed that subforums are pretty much a death sentence to most game threads. I rarely go to other subforums at all, unless I am really bored or there is zero activity in main games forum.

We could have a Gabe Newell appreciationt thread!

Retr0gamer

gizmo

Myrddin wrote: »

Regards the frequency of threads about old games, I think you'd be surprised about how well such threads could potentially thrive in an environment different to one this forum provides. People are far less likely to bother starting a thread about an older game here in Games, as they know it'll be swallowed up within a few hours/a day & be on page 2 before it ever got going. But give people an environment where they know they can comfortably talk about older games (and by older we mean just out of the limelight, it doesn't have to be a text based adventure ) & they just might, be more inclined to do so.

What about discussion about older games which aren't on the PC and are console-only?

Essentially, I don't really see how it's a valid reason to have a PC Gaming forum.

Not that I think we should have one anyway as, ultimately, I think it will do little else other than perpetuate the "us versus them" mentality which rears its ugly head around here with annoying regularity.

Vikings

I'm more of a lurker around here venturing in from time to time to see what games are popular at the time when I want to try something new, with that background here is my thoughts on this:

Each console already has its own subforum, so that is taken care of.

There is a PC Building & Upgrading and Overclocking & Modding forum, so that is taken care of.

A lot of the big games like COD, Battlefield & GTA have their own forums and on top of that there is forums specifically for RPG's, Fighting Games, Strategy games etc.

So what is left to discuss? The odd cross platform game that might not fit into any of the above categories like Batman or Assassins Creed maybe.

And then the range of PC games that are out there.

I don't think there needs to be a dedicated PC gaming forum, the other forum options out there already provide enough diversity. I come here for my PC gaming needs already, why change that?

Myrddin

gizmo wrote: »

What about discussion about older games which aren't on the PC and are console-only?

Without coming across as sarcastic, I would have thought that would be obvious? It wouldn't be called the PC Gaming forum to discuss console-only games in

Essentially, I don't really see how it's a valid reason to have a PC Gaming forum.

Not that I think we should have one anyway as, ultimately, I think it will do little else other than perpetuate the "us versus them" mentality which rears its ugly head around here with annoying regularity.

It would be a concern, but more so one for the mods...

Vikings wrote: »

I come here for my PC gaming needs already, why change that?

We're not looking to change it though

I'm not posting to convince anyone one way or the other, more so that everyone properly understands the proposal & on that basis, gives it fair consideration. I will re-emphasise, we're not looking to change or remove anything from this forum...we're looking to cater to what doesn't get talked about in this forum

Grumpypants

I think there is scope to have a PC gaming sub category if it was open to all aspects of PC gaming not just either the games or the components. I know there is a PC building forum but it is not really aimed at the gaming side of things. A PC category where we can talk about older PC games, Steam/Origin/key site sales, kickstarter, PC components like graphics cards, monitors, keyboards that suit new games etc would be fairly useful.

The PlayStation and Xbox forums used to be very active, i used to post there as you could freely talk about console games without having to put up with every thread getting derailed by someone saying you could built a PC for $300. I would like to see a return to that or at least a relaxing of the rules.

When those categories were changed they really died off as there isn't enough to talk about in relation to consoles without the games.

The games forum then became too busy and a thread would drop to page 2 or 3 very quickly if it was n't flame bait.

Another issue with the forums is that it is not clear what the rules are.

As long as the rules are simple and similar across all the sub categories then it should balance out.

I think Games forum for all new games and new gaming news regardless of the platform would be busy.

PlayStation/Xbox/PC forums for all peripherals and smaller games or games older than 1 year that wouldn't get a fair shot on the games forum would offer a place to discuss other items bar the main stream titles.

jumbobreakfast

If you do create a PC gaming section then consider merging survival sandbox and older gaming subforums into it

gizmo

Myrddin wrote: »

Without coming across as sarcastic, I would have thought that would be obvious? It wouldn't be called the PC Gaming forum to discuss console-only games in

That was my point though. If the lack of discussion about older games in general is a concern then it should be addressed as a whole for all platforms. Using it as a reason to keep a PC Gaming orientated forum around therefore isn't valid.

If, on the other hand, the new forum was to focus more on the PC-orientated side of hardware and gaming services, then it could be quite useful. Basically, keep it a "Platform-only" forum, like the existing console ones and leave all of the games discussion in the general Games forum.

DarkJager

This would be a great idea. The PC Gaming hipsters would have their own place then to circle jerk about being the "master race", away from the rest of us who couldn't care less about it

Raphael

I think the big reason for using a platform based model over a genre based one is that it's a line along which communities align more easily.

People who play games on PC will probably have played a lot of the same games, and will be able to discuss them, likewise xbox or ps3. So having a platform to discuss smaller titles, or older ones that would be drowned out in this forum is a better option than trying to find a genre forum for it.

Some of the genre forums (MMOs for example) work because there is a community there. A group of like minded people who play that genre and try out new games in that genre. Some of the genre forums (RPGs for example) do not, because there is no community surrounding the genre.

I believe that if you dumped the entire games cat back into this forum, it's be ridiculous. If you agree with that, then why is their harm in talking about moving some of the hidden traffic out? No one's talking about kicking every PC gaming thread out of here. Hell, I don't even think threads will really be moved. What will be there is that if your thread gets buried here without anyone seeing it, you can have somewhere with a lower traffic to try posting it.

Myrddin

Grumpypants wrote: »

I think there is scope to have a PC gaming sub category if it was open to all aspects of PC gaming not just either the games or the components. I know there is a PC building forum but it is not really aimed at the gaming side of things. A PC category where we can talk about older PC games, Steam/Origin/key site sales, kickstarter, PC components like graphics cards, monitors, keyboards that suit new games etc would be fairly useful.

I think there might be a very slight tech element that could creep in, such things are inevitable with pc chat...but again we're trying to be absolutely fair to forums that already cater to this stuff outside of the category. If the tech talk would relate to the game in some way, as in what specs maybe you run it on (or can't run it on) then maybe that'd be ok...but when it comes to hardware advice & how-to-upgrade type talk etc...that's really leaving the realms of the Games cat.

The PlayStation and Xbox forums used to be very active, i used to post there as you could freely talk about console games without having to put up with every thread getting derailed by someone saying you could built a PC for $300. I would like to see a return to that or at least a relaxing of the rules.

When those categories were changed they really died off as there isn't enough to talk about in relation to consoles without the games.

I think that change has been by far more successful than not. There's now a centralized hub to discuss games, very little cross-posting (which was an issue when browsing three or four different forums about games), & the console forums took away all the now gaming chat that was still relevant. Yes they lost some traffic, but in terms of usability, I things have very much improved.

Another issue with the forums is that it is not clear what the rules are.

As long as the rules are simple and similar across all the sub categories then it should balance out.

By rules you mean the subject matter of the forum I presume? Or individual forums charters etc? Have you any examples?

I think Games forum for all new games and new gaming news regardless of the platform would be busy.

That's pretty much how its working already though?

PlayStation/Xbox/PC forums for all peripherals and smaller games or games older than 1 year that wouldn't get a fair shot on the games forum would offer a place to discuss other items bar the main stream titles.

Well I won't speak for the other console forums in this regard, but yeah, that's the idea with PC Gaming more or less.

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

If you do create a PC gaming section then consider merging survival sandbox and older gaming subforums into it

Yeah it definitely would give us some scope to reduce the overall category footprint, & consolidate some related forums together.

gizmo wrote: »

That was my point though. If the lack of discussion about older games in general is a concern then it should be addressed as a whole for all platforms. Using it as a reason to keep a PC Gaming orientated forum around therefore isn't valid.

Maybe, if it is successful, we could look at that as an idea alright, but don't forget we have a very popular Arcade & Retro forum which already covers the vast majority of older console gaming discussion. For whatever reason, pc games never really feature all that much in A&R.

If, on the other hand, the new forum was to focus more on the PC-orientated side of hardware and gaming services, then it could be quite useful. Basically, keep it a "Platform-only" forum, like the existing console ones and leave all of the games discussion in the general Games forum.

The hardware thing prob won't be a runner, I'll say that off the bat. There are forums outside of the Games Category that cater to this, & again, I'm not about to cause them problems. I acknowledge some crossover is likely, but it'll be basic stuff. Gaming services, sales, etc etc are all a definite inclusion.

DarkJager wrote: »

This would be a great idea. The PC Gaming hipsters would have their own place then to circle jerk about being the "master race", away from the rest of us who couldn't care less about it

Great, thanks a mill for that...we'll be sure to take it on board :(

Again, thanks all...the different viewpoints really help.

Gbear

In terms of neatness it doesn't seem like all the gaming genres need a sub-forum off the main "Games" dropdown.

Maybe just have the Games/Games structure and have everything related to gaming in that - all genres, all platforms, all events, development, games journalism and media.

Have this forum for discussion of cross platform games and issues (like censorship, internet freedom, piracy, etc).
Have platform specific threads (hardware, software, exclusive games) in their respective platform subcategories.

So inside Games/Games you have threads like you see here now - Titanfall, Assassins Creed, etc.
You'd also have a bunch of subcategory headers - Platforms (which would contain each platform - as many as you like), Events, Journalism and Media, Development.

MMOs and Strategy tend to be PC only so they'd all go to the PC Gaming sub (Games/Games/Platforms/PC Gaming).
Fighting and Racing games would go to their respective platform if exclusive or Games/Games if they weren't.

Myrddin

Gbear wrote: »

Have this forum for discussion of cross platform games and issues (like censorship, internet freedom, piracy, etc).
Have platform specific threads (hardware, software, exclusive games) in their respective platform subcategories.

That sounds similar to how it used to be, where console games were discussed in the console forums...it created a lot of cross posting (as most games are cross-platform), & you'd run the risk of threads not living up to their potential as if they are an exclusive game, they'll be away from the main forum.

So inside Games/Games you have threads like you see here now - Titanfall, Assassins Creed, etc.
You'd also have a bunch of subcategory headers - Platforms (which would contain each platform - as many as you like), Events, Journalism and Media, Development.

It's a nice idea, but I think there might be too many subforums then in this forum...all the real estate they take up means less visible threads on the first page...which means you're potentially going to lose out on chat as page 2 might as well be page 20 for a lot of people. Also, you're burying a lot of forums behind lots of extra clicks, where at least in the drop down menu they're instantly visible & more likely to be visited...

MMOs and Strategy tend to be PC only so they'd all go to the PC Gaming sub (Games/Games/Platforms/PC Gaming).
Fighting and Racing games would go to their respective platform if exclusive or Games/Games if they weren't.

I'd be really, really reluctant to move any forum that's doing well. Fighting Games runs itself, Massively Multiplayer is working too. Strategy could potentially become a subforum of the theoretical PC Gaming forum alright, it would depend on several factors though.

gizmo

Myrddin wrote: »

Maybe, if it is successful, we could look at that as an idea alright, but don't forget we have a very popular Arcade & Retro forum which already covers the vast majority of older console gaming discussion. For whatever reason, pc games never really feature all that much in A&R.

Arcade & Retro doesn't cover the types of games you've mentioned as being viable threads for discussion on this forum though, e.g. older in the sense that they're just out of the limelight. Anyway, it's more of a mod issue and is probably something that can be clarified in the Charter. My main concern is simply the risk of splitting potential games based discussion away from the Games forum.

Myrddin wrote: »

The hardware thing prob won't be a runner, I'll say that off the bat. There are forums outside of the Games Category that cater to this, & again, I'm not about to cause them problems. I acknowledge some crossover is likely, but it'll be basic stuff. Gaming services, sales, etc etc are all a definite inclusion.

I should have been more specific here, sorry. I didn't mean general "What graphics card should I get?" type things, moreso topics such as Oculus Rift and the influence VR will have on gaming in the future, in-home streaming tech via SteamOS or nVidia GameStream and smaller, more gaming-orientated peripherals like mechanical keyboards and the gaming specific advantages they offer over their membrane-based brethren.

titan18

Multiple issues really with it (and some of the ideas suggested).

Steam and Valve doesn't really need a sub-forum by itself. Probably one of the largest Steam related threads would be Summer and Christmas Sales. No reason why that can't be in the Games forum as a thread. It tends to be highly active so having it in Gaming Bargains is messy, but doesn't need a whole sub-forum. SteamOS and SteamBox aren't popular enough yet to justify one either, so really you're left with technical issues.

There was a comparison made to putting a new PC Gaming forum in with Nintendo,Xbox and Playstation, and older games would be discussed. For the most part, there's very little game discussion in the console forums. It's about the console itself and it's features, and game discussion tends to relate mostly to upcoming games you're looking forward too, games you should buy etc, rather than individual discussions on something like The Last of Us, or an Xbox only discussion on Titanfall or something. Game discussion is generally contained within the Games forum, barring stuff like MMOs,MOBAs, COD,FIFA, GTA etc. Those sub-forums also help for technical issue discussion, but for PC Gaming, there's too much of an overlap with the Tech forum or PC Building and Upgrading for it to need a separate forum here.


Whilst you could create a PC Gaming forum, I'm not sure how you can split the discussion. MOBAs, MMOs, Football Manager,Sims etc all have their own forums already, so that takes out a lot of major PC-only games and discussion. Having a general Steam community thread, Origin community etc for sharing profiles etc is handy, but whilst it's annoying in the Games forum to see those threads imo, they're not really in need of their own forum. Indie game discussion is something that I could also see end up moving there, but that can take away a lot from the Games forum as instead of seeing a game pop up that takes you be surprise, it's a list of AAA games discussion. Even outside of Indie, but bigger games that wouldn't have a giant marketing budget could end up shut off in their forum rather than appearing on the main Games forum and more people seeing them.


Without stepping on other forums, you're pretty much looking at topics of Steam/Origin/etc profiles, and technical stuff like how can I get a game e.g Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines working on windows 7/8 or something similar. I'm not sure it'd be a very heavily used forum if created without bringing in other stuff, and taking away from others.

Also, if you're getting rid of the Steam forum, get rid of RPG and Strategy whilst you're at it, there's even less of a need for them.

Myrddin

gizmo wrote: »

Arcade & Retro doesn't cover the types of games you've mentioned as being viable threads for discussion on this forum though, e.g. older in the sense that they're just out of the limelight. Anyway, it's more of a mod issue and is probably something that can be clarified in the Charter. My main concern is simply the risk of splitting potential games based discussion away from the Games forum.

Let me try to reassure all of the Games forum users, this forum will not allowed to be affected in any way. Personally I'd consider this forum the flagship forum of the category, & these proposals only serve to suggest that we can possibly take advantage of what's not happening in this forum, not what is happening.

For example, if I pluck a game from page 10 or 20 of this forum & start a thread about it in a theoretical PC Gaming forum...will it in any way affect this forum? I really, really doubt it. When a game is new, current, in the limelight, or already exists in here as an active thread...then that will stay the way it is. But if someone wants to have a chat about Stalker, or Half Life, or Crysis, or Bioshock, or even stuff like Sleeping Dogs etc...those threads would die a death in this forum because the content on page 1 is always so fresh, & the turnover of threads so fast.

A PC Gaming forum might give an angle to allow those threads to actually work out, the turnover there would be slower, & the main thing is it'd in no way affect this forum...in fact the two forums could possibly even compliment each other.

I should have been more specific here, sorry. I didn't mean general "What graphics card should I get?" type things, moreso topics such as Oculus Rift and the influence VR will have on gaming in the future, in-home streaming tech via SteamOS or nVidia GameStream and smaller, more gaming-orientated peripherals like mechanical keyboards and the gaming specific advantages they offer over their membrane-based brethren.

Ah I see, I think those type of things would absolutely be welcome in a PC Gaming forum, they're relevant to pc gaming, & don't conflict with existing fora in any way. So yep, definitely add those to the list of possible subjects.

Myrddin

titan18 wrote: »

Multiple issues really with it (and some of the ideas suggested).

Steam and Valve doesn't really need a sub-forum by itself. Probably one of the largest Steam related threads would be Summer and Christmas Sales. No reason why that can't be in the Games forum as a thread. It tends to be highly active so having it in Gaming Bargains is messy, but doesn't need a whole sub-forum. SteamOS and SteamBox aren't popular enough yet to justify one either, so really you're left with technical issues.

Yep, happy enough to concede that...it's not working as we expected.

There was a comparison made to putting a new PC Gaming forum in with Nintendo,Xbox and Playstation, and older games would be discussed. For the most part, there's very little game discussion in the console forums. It's about the console itself and it's features, and game discussion tends to relate mostly to upcoming games you're looking forward too, games you should buy etc, rather than individual discussions on something like The Last of Us, or an Xbox only discussion on Titanfall or something. Game discussion is generally contained within the Games forum, barring stuff like MMOs,MOBAs, COD,FIFA, GTA etc. Those sub-forums also help for technical issue discussion, but for PC Gaming, there's too much of an overlap with the Tech forum or PC Building and Upgrading for it to need a separate forum here.

It's not directly comparable with the console forums though, for a start, Arcade & Retro covers any & all past console gaming from hardware to software. For whatever reason, A&R is not something that older pc gaming tends to be discussed in, so there is a gap there. Is there an interest in discussing older games? Would it help if there was a place to discuss them & all other aspects of pc gaming? That's what we're looking to evaluate with this thread

Whilst you could create a PC Gaming forum, I'm not sure how you can split the discussion. MOBAs, MMOs, Football Manager,Sims etc all have their own forums already, so that takes out a lot of major PC-only games and discussion. Having a general Steam community thread, Origin community etc for sharing profiles etc is handy, but whilst it's annoying in the Games forum to see those threads imo, they're not really in need of their own forum. Indie game discussion is something that I could also see end up moving there, but that can take away a lot from the Games forum as instead of seeing a game pop up that takes you be surprise, it's a list of AAA games discussion. Even outside of Indie, but bigger games that wouldn't have a giant marketing budget could end up shut off in their forum rather than appearing on the main Games forum and more people seeing them.

The niche genres are certainly catered to, but what of games outside of the scope those forums offer? Indie games would be no different to how all games would be handled...if it's a new or upcoming Indie game then it belongs in this forum...if it's a n indie game out of the spotlight, or slightly older, why not send it over to PC Gaming where the thread would stay current for longer? Of course it might not work out in the end, but on paper at least, it seems like a good idea. Also, it gives us some scope to possibly clean up the category as a whole, by either assimilating some old/dying forums or maybe making them subforums of it.

Also, if you're getting rid of the Steam forum, get rid of RPG and Strategy whilst you're at it, there's even less of a need for them.

Again we're certainly open to category feedback, but one step at a time I think will serve us best

Magill

While a lot of the concerns people have are fair, I still think there is a place for a PC gaming forum.

I'd imagine there will probably be a bit of overlap with some other forums (PC Building in particular) but there is still quite a bit on the hardware side that would just suit better in a forum dedicated for actual gaming on PC... you know like actual gaming gear and new technologies like the Oculus Rift.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least as active as the Xbox forum as there is just a much broader scope for topics than you'd find on either of the consoles outside of the individual games imo.

Unless your plan is to delete the steam forum... i honestly don't get why there would be any objection to renaming it to at the very least include other services such as Origin.

CastorTroy

I suppose the big question is Can you get Gaben to mod it?

Grumpypants

Myrddin wrote: »

I think there might be a very slight tech element that could creep in, such things are inevitable with pc chat...but again we're trying to be absolutely fair to forums that already cater to this stuff outside of the category. If the tech talk would relate to the game in some way, as in what specs maybe you run it on (or can't run it on) then maybe that'd be ok...but when it comes to hardware advice & how-to-upgrade type talk etc...that's really leaving the realms of the Games cat.


.

In terms of talking about hardware I would think the "how to install" or "recommend me a card" threads would go to the PC building forum, but the stuff that would never fit in that forum would work in a dedicated PC gaming forum.

Things like new technologies like the steam box, Oculus Rift, talking about a new line of graphics cards or keyboards etc. New software like the Mantle API or streaming services. Discussions on the best settings for a certain game etc.

Mix in a healthy does of PC games and it would be great. The main cross platform games would still fit in the main Games forum but there are enough PC only games that it would work and make it worth visiting.