Dublin Bus middle door Why?

skulltown

Its has been a number of times now.. but rush hour... heading home... standing at the middle door because the front door is too packed... Bus driver opens the middle on every stop except the stop I stop at why why why what is the point in it. Really annoying what the hell explain...!!!!

Five Lamps

There are three issues:

A) Passengers aren't used to the centre door concept after all these years. They need to be "retrained" and told to use them.

On all these new busses the rear doors are very badly signed. You need to put a big EXIT sign over them and another sign towards the front "exit through centre doors:

C) Drivers are the big problem. They need to be proactive. Off peak, they should just be refusing to open the front door for passengers. Twice I've been on off peak services and watched the drivers simply not bother even when passengers stood at the doors.

cdebru

skulltown wrote: »

Its has been a number of times now.. but rush hour... heading home... standing at the middle door because the front door is too packed... Bus driver opens the middle on every stop except the stop I stop at why why why what is the point in it. Really annoying what the hell explain...!!!!

Because maybe the stop you are using is unsafe/unsuitable to open the center doors, could be parked vehicles, no hard surface, a railing, unable to get into the stop properly etc etc.
Or maybe he is just ****ing with you.

Five Lamps

cdebru wrote: »

Because maybe the stop you are using is unsafe/unsuitable to open the center doors, could be parked vehicles, no hard surface, a railing, unable to get into the stop properly etc etc.
Or maybe he is just ****ing with you.

Ehhh... no. I think you can discount the "unsafe stops" line that seems to be thrown out. Utter rubbish. The later is more likely or just pure unprofessionalism by the drivers.

LXFlyer

Five Lamps wrote: »

Ehhh... no. I think you can discount the "unsafe stops" line that seems to be thrown out. Utter rubbish. The later is more likely or just pure unprofessionalism by the drivers.

To be fair that is not the case.

There are quite a few stops that are appallingly designed and where there is insufficient space for a bus to pull in, straighten adjacent to the kerb, stop, and then pull out.

Frankly as I've said before, there ought to be a proper safety audit carried out of every single stop, so that the safety issue can then be removed and any confusion ceases.

At the same time there are plenty of other stops where drivers could use both doors.

But I'd say frankly it boils down to getting a bit fed up deciding which door to open or not, and it's just easier to use the front ones given that's where most people go to in the first place.

cdebru

Five Lamps wrote: »

Ehhh... no. I think you can discount the "unsafe stops" line that seems to be thrown out. Utter rubbish. The later is more likely or just pure unprofessionalism by the drivers.

You think lol.

http://www.sydneybuses.info/publications/Bus%20Infrastructure%20Guidelines%20-Issue%202.pdf

Have a read of that, then have a look around Dublin and come back and tell me how many stops meet or come anywhere close to the common sense guidelines in that link.

AlekSmart

skulltown wrote: »

Its has been a number of times now.. but rush hour... heading home... standing at the middle door because the front door is too packed... Bus driver opens the middle on every stop except the stop I stop at why why why what is the point in it. Really annoying what the hell explain...!!!!

Were there any seats available upstairs perchance..?

The practice of individuals standing in the Centre-doorwell tends to block any access to passengers wishing to use it,who then return to the default and head for the front....incredibly,most of those who stand at the Centre Door watching it open and close repeatedly for a 30+ minute journey will then head for the :eek: Front :eek: door when their stop then comes along.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:.

Situational awareness is right

pclive

I think The location of the stairs makes it easier for passengers to alight using the front doors especially when the bus is full of standing pax.

It seems to be badly designed.

Uriel.

Five Lamps wrote: »

Ehhh... no. I think you can discount the "unsafe stops" line that seems to be thrown out. Utter rubbish. The later is more likely or just pure unprofessionalism by the drivers.

I am not sure about unsafe per se but the stop I normally get off when returning home - you get off at front door, and if driver has pulled in/approached the stop correctly you step out onto a square piece of concrete and then onto the footpath.

At same stop if you got off at the middle door you'd step straight onto a seriously flooded and mucky grass verge, in this weather at least. Sorry but i don't want to be stepping out into that, thanks. You could perhaps even ho so far as saying unsafe as you are stepping from an elevated position onto a slippery surface.

_Kaiser_

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair that is not the case.

There are quite a few stops that are appallingly designed and where there is insufficient space for a bus to pull in, straighten adjacent to the kerb, stop, and then pull out.

Frankly as I've said before, there ought to be a proper safety audit carried out of every single stop, so that the safety issue can then be removed and any confusion ceases.

At the same time there are plenty of other stops where drivers could use both doors.

But I'd say frankly it boils down to getting a bit fed up deciding which door to open or not, and it's just easier to use the front ones given that's where most people go to in the first place.

I too disagree with this argument that it's the stops that are the problem.

Watching Top Gear last weekend, the lads were biking around London and in one scene one of them nearly ran into a pedestrian who was getting off a bus via the centre door (coincidentally it was an ALX400-bodied Denis , the same body as our AV or AX class).

The bus itself hadn't fully pulled in either (hence why James May was able to cycle alongside it) but that didn't stop the driver from opening the centre doors anyway.

So is the issue really bus stops or:

1. Cyclists cutting inside buses when they're loading/unloading
2. Pedestrians/passengers not watching where they're going (I know it's unfashionable these days to suggest people have a bit of cop-on and responsibility for their own personal safety)
3. Pig-headedness/apathy/laziness on the part of the drivers

Or all 3 of the above?

Uriel.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I too disagree with this argument that it's the stops that are the problem.

Watching Top Gear last weekend, the lads were biking around London and in one scene one of them nearly ran into a pedestrian who was getting off a bus via the centre door (coincidentally it was an ALX400-bodied Denis , the same body as our AV or AX class).

The bus itself hadn't fully pulled in either (hence why James May was able to cycle alongside it) but that didn't stop the driver from opening the centre doors anyway.

So is the issue really bus stops or:

1. Cyclists cutting inside buses when they're loading/unloading
2. Pedestrians/passengers not watching where they're going (I know it's unfashionable these days to suggest people have a bit of cop-on and responsibility for their own personal safety)
3. Pig-headedness/apathy/laziness on the part of the drivers

Or all 3 of the above?

I think anyone that cycles or drives(Motorcycle) up the inside of a bus while it is stationary and has an indicator on is looking for trouble, even if the bus isn't completely pulled in. I am not talking about a driver deciding to open the doors in the middle of a lane, several meters shy of the bus stop to let impatient passengers out "early" or anything like that (actually I don't ever see that happening anymore).

I am not entirely sure you can blame passengers alighting either. if the bus pulls into the bus stop, you can reasonably presume that you can disembark without some idiot coming streaming up the inside. In fact, depending on the circumstances (type of bus, number of passengers on board, speed of the cyclist/motorcyclist coming up the inside), you would not be able to sufficiently see the road behind.

Additionally, if every passenger getting off the bus needs to stop at the door, stick their head out and check the road behind them, the stall time will significantly increase.

Now don't get me started on the passengers who get off, walk in front of the bus and attempt to cross the road.:mad::mad:

stop

Uriel. wrote: »

Now don't get me started on the passengers who get off, walk in front of the bus and attempt to cross the road.:mad::mad:

As a kid I saw a woman do this after getting off a 123 city imp on Galtymore Road, she was subsequently hit by a car overtaking the bus.

To this day I always go as slow as I can when passing a stopped bus.

Uriel.

stop wrote: »

As a kid I saw a woman do this after getting off a 123 city imp on Galtymore Road, she was subsequently hit by a car overtaking the bus.

To this day I always go as slow as I can when passing a stopped bus.

me too.

cdebru

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I too disagree with this argument that it's the stops that are the problem.

Watching Top Gear last weekend, the lads were biking around London and in one scene one of them nearly ran into a pedestrian who was getting off a bus via the centre door (coincidentally it was an ALX400-bodied Denis , the same body as our AV or AX class).

The bus itself hadn't fully pulled in either (hence why James May was able to cycle alongside it) but that didn't stop the driver from opening the centre doors anyway.

So is the issue really bus stops or:

1. Cyclists cutting inside buses when they're loading/unloading
2. Pedestrians/passengers not watching where they're going (I know it's unfashionable these days to suggest people have a bit of cop-on and responsibility for their own personal safety)
3. Pig-headedness/apathy/laziness on the part of the drivers

Or all 3 of the above?

Is there some pigheadedness yes undoubtedly, but the simple fact is our bus stops are not up to standard, not 100% of them but a large portion of them.
As long as that situation continues you will find it very difficult to deal with the pigheadedness.
If you have a read of the link I posted earlier you will see some basic common sense guidelines for bus infrastructure and then look at this city and compare it to that commonsense and see how far behind we are.

We actually have stops that are specifically designed solely for front door operation, but it doesn't stop there look at locations of stops, on bends, just before traffic lights with busy left turns, outside convenience shops, post offices, etc then railings with a gap wide enough just for front doors, laybys with insufficient room to pull in get straight and pull out, a complete disregard for parking regulations and a complete disinterest from the Gardai.
Bus stops that are too small for the volume of buses serving them, paid parking right up to either side of a bus stop, with a box that you would have to helicopter the bus into.

I don't believe you can blame pedestrians they should have a reasonable expectation that if the doors open they are safe to exit without having to check for cars, trucks, bicycles or motorbikes.

moc moc a moc

skulltown wrote: »

why why why what is the point in it. Really annoying what the hell explain...!!!!

Here's a mad idea: instead of asking a load of internet people, why not ask... the bus driver??

LXFlyer

TfL also have bus stop design guidance, and I think that again many stops here would not comply with these standards.


http://www.tfl.gov.uk/microsites/interchange/documents/accessibile_bus_stop_design_guidance.pdf

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

TfL also have bus stop design guidance, and I think that again many stops here would not comply with these standards.


http://www.tfl.gov.uk/microsites/interchange/documents/accessibile_bus_stop_design_guidance.pdf

37 metres for rigid buses and 49 for articulated buses you could probably count on the fingers of one hand bus stops in this city that meet those guidelines never mind foot path height, flag location, shelter location, bus cage width, location of traffic lights, line of sight, account of bus volumes etc etc.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

37 metres for rigid buses and 49 for articulated buses you could probably count on the fingers of one hand bus stops in this city that meet those guidelines never mind foot path height, flag location, shelter location, bus cage width, location of traffic lights, line of sight, account of bus volumes etc etc.

Which is entirely my point - there needs to be a full review of this.

dfx-

moc moc a moc wrote: »

Here's a mad idea: instead of asking a load of internet people, why not ask... the bus driver??

Or just take the extra 5 seconds to let people out the front door, concrete over the middle door and let everyone get around quicker:cool:

Five Lamps

The bus stop design is an utter red herring. These stops are few and far between (if they exist at all). How come cities around the world have been able to use multi door buses without these palatial bus stops.

On a number 1 bus today. Driver not only not using the middle doors but also had a mate standing up at the front for the bants. It seems that more and more of these double door buses are in service and drivers need to get the finger out and start doing their jobs.

monument

cdebru wrote: »

37 metres for rigid buses and 49 for articulated buses you could probably count on the fingers of one hand bus stops in this city that meet those guidelines never mind foot path height, flag location, shelter location, bus cage width, location of traffic lights, line of sight, account of bus volumes etc etc.

BRT would solve those issues and other ones -- for a good chunk of main routes in the city -- and would do so in a constructive, jointed up way.

Yet, we have so many against BRT. You can nearly understand the railfans being against it, but bus heads or people who who want an all round good transport system, it's a wonder.

Losty Dublin

Five Lamps wrote: »

The bus stop design is an utter red herring. These stops are few and far between (if they exist at all). How come cities around the world have been able to use multi door buses without these palatial bus stops.

On a number 1 bus today. Driver not only not using the middle doors but also had a mate standing up at the front for the bants. It seems that more and more of these double door buses are in service and drivers need to get the finger out and start doing their jobs.

If a bus stop isn't capable of allowing a bus to pull up and align it's doors to the kerb without a gap then there is an issue with the stop design. We are not talking any revolutionary design of a bus stop but a place where it can pull into, allow boarding and alighting, and pull out safely.

You'd think that it's not that much to ask from our city fathers, wouldn't you?

LXFlyer

Five Lamps wrote: »

The bus stop design is an utter red herring. These stops are few and far between (if they exist at all). How come cities around the world have been able to use multi door buses without these palatial bus stops.

On a number 1 bus today. Driver not only not using the middle doors but also had a mate standing up at the front for the bants. It seems that more and more of these double door buses are in service and drivers need to get the finger out and start doing their jobs.

So perhaps you might tell me how many of our bus stops meet TfL standards?


Should we not be looking for best practice when implementing a change such as this?


Or should we continue with the "ah sure, it'll be grand" approach?

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

BRT would solve those issues and other ones -- for a good chunk of main routes in the city -- and would do so in a constructive, jointed up way.

Yet, we have so many against BRT. You can nearly understand the railfans being against it, but bus heads or people who who want an all round good transport system, it's a wonder.

BRT will only solve it on 4.5 corridors.


I don't think it is too much to ask that proper standards be applied across the city for this sort of thing.


Frankly it is a joke.

Five Lamps

lxflyer wrote: »

So perhaps you might tell me how many of our bus stops meet TfL standards?

I would say the majority do.

Should we not be looking for best practice when implementing a change such as this?

By all means but it's not a show stopper for using double doors.

Or should we continue with the "ah sure, it'll be grand" approach?

In this case, yes. The rest of the world seems to be able to do it.

LXFlyer

Five Lamps wrote: »

I would say the majority do.



By all means but it's not a show stopper for using double doors.



In this case, yes. The rest of the world seems to be able to do it.

Have you bothered to read the TfL guidance document before making that judgement?

cdebru

monument wrote: »

BRT would solve those issues and other ones -- for a good chunk of main routes in the city -- and would do so in a constructive, jointed up way.

Yet, we have so many against BRT. You can nearly understand the railfans being against it, but bus heads or people who who want an all round good transport system, it's a wonder.

What is proposed you have already admitted is not BRT, however it would hopefully mean at least some stops that meet the basic standards set out in the links from Australia and London.
However the "BRT" documents do not at this stage set out,

A will current bus services continue to use the BRT lanes or the new BRT stops.

B will other non BRT stops be upgraded

C will any laybys provided be up to the standards set out in those links.


My main objection to the, what the NTA calls "BRT" is

1 The desire to use Bendibuses

2 Given 1 the lack of clear segregation from bicycles and taxis and other buses.

3 The amount of money being spent on resurfacing to facilitate the use of bendibuses when that money could be better spent implementing other transport improvements.

4 The lack of mention of policing, suggests to me the NTA don't even realise that one of the main problems with transport in this country is a complete lack of enforcement.

My opinion is they should not be called BRT as it is misleading they are not BRT they should be called SuperQBC or similar.

Five Lamps

lxflyer wrote: »

Have you bothered to read the TfL guidance document before making that judgement?

It's a guidance document and I'm sure we'd all build bus stops to that spec if we could - including London.

Fact of the matter is that it's drivers and not bus stop design that's the problem here. So we need less of the excuses and hiding behind UK guidance docs and more opening the middle doors please.

Or perhaps somebody can advise is there is some other agenda here?

cdebru

Five Lamps wrote: »

I would say the majority do.



By all means but it's not a show stopper for using double doors.



In this case, yes. The rest of the world seems to be able to do it.

Have you read either of the links ?

Have you actually looked at Dublin bus stops in light of having read either of the links ?

Take this one

It probably breaches every single guideline



https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.345867,-6.276265,3a,75y,57.74h,71.19t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1suzYuw0Vi6S8a3-QW_Cb5dA!2e0


Line of sight for drivers and intending passengers neither can see each other until the Bus has cleared the Shoe shop.
The bus cage actually curves
Disabled parking space right before the bus cage
the footpath is nowhere near high enough
The bus stop flag is at most less than a metre from the end of the bus cage which is right next to a loading bay so physically impossible to stop at the bus stop,
No room to get bus straight
The stop actually leaves the bus in a left hand turning lane only with no indication that buses do not have to turn left.
The stop is right before a busy set of traffic lights with a busy left turn that means traffic is driving across in front of the bus trying to exit the stop.
This stop actually serves 21 bus routes
Routes serving this stop:
145 Towards Kilmacanogue
25 Towards Merrion Sq.
25a Towards Merrion Sq.
25b Towards Merrion Sq.
25x Towards UCD Belfield
26 Towards Merrion Sq.
37 Towards Baggot St. / Wilton Terrace
39 Towards Burlington Rd.
39a Towards UCD Belfield
51d Towards Hawkins St./Waterloo Rd.
51x Towards Dunawley
66 Towards Merrion Sq.
66a Towards Merrion Sq.
66b Towards Merrion Sq.
66x Towards UCD Belfield
67 Towards Merrion Sq.
67x Towards UCD Belfield
69 Towards Hawkins St.
70 Towards Burlington Rd.
79 Towards Aston Quay
79a Towards Aston Quay


I haven't bothered to count all of these but it is well in excess of 60 buses an hour at peak so it should on top of the approach, getting straight and exit space for 3 to 4 buses to stop at a time.



I also like this one

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.346811,-6.262317,3a,75.1y,80.91h,68.89t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQfx1IEMMmwp_3ZI-f5FscA!2e0


Yes that is a hatched area with a continuous white line all the way through a bus stop. Dept of transport link on road markings.

Hatched markings may be bounded by a
Continuous Line (RRM 001) where entry to the hatched area is
prohibited

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/12971-TSM_CHAPTER_7-7.PDF


Or this one

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.354785,-6.371563,3a,75y,268.94h,62.72t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1scQjGG7Ki1sC2S44K2aWohg!2e0

Yeah a railings with a gap just wide enough for front doors, open the centre doors here and you will be walking them into a railing.



Another one
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.382457,-6.202715,3a,75y,70.87h,65.85t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEIGQTZXEHgu8JjmgI2EGgw!2e0

This time apart from the illegally parked car we have the thin stretch of concrete, centre doors users would be stepping onto grass and probably knee deep in muck during the winter.

Another random one
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.376364,-6.221338,3a,75y,260.81h,57.37t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXK0M0vahdySmtAEmLhJgIg!2e0

No footpath height to speak of and a car parked right in front of the stop.

I could go on and on and on.

cdebru

Five Lamps wrote: »

It's a guidance document and I'm sure we'd all build bus stops to that spec if we could - including London.

Fact of the matter is that it's drivers and not bus stop design that's the problem here. So we need less of the excuses and hiding behind UK guidance docs and more opening the middle doors please.

Or perhaps somebody can advise is there is some other agenda here?

Yes there is, it is called if you want it to happen then you better provide the infrastructure in which it can happen other wise the labour court ruling of some nearly 30years ago remains in place and you are pissing against the wind buying buses with centre doors.

As long as you have a company that wants to hold its employees responsible in the event of any incident while at the same time asking those employees to use stops that are clearly dangerous in some cases then we are stuck in limbo, once the stops are corrected and buses can enter, load and unload, and exit safely then there will be no excuse for not using centre doors but we are not anywhere near there.

LXFlyer

Five Lamps wrote: »

It's a guidance document and I'm sure we'd all build bus stops to that spec if we could - including London.

Fact of the matter is that it's drivers and not bus stop design that's the problem here. So we need less of the excuses and hiding behind UK guidance docs and more opening the middle doors please.

Or perhaps somebody can advise is there is some other agenda here?

I have no other agenda other than as a customer, but having travelled around the network I have become aware of how shocking the bus stop design is in many cases.

The lack of any consistency means that it would be almost a "lucky dip" as to which doors can be opened.

I would prefer to see this done correctly, and that as the new buses are rolled out onto routes, that each route in turn has a proper safety audit, and whatever adjustments are required to stops are made, so that buses can operate in a safe manner, and more importantly the centre doors used on a consistent basis.

To suggest that pointing to what proper stop design for a bus service that is (in operational terms) identical to ours, should be is "hiding" frankly demeans your argument. Take a trip to London and you'll see that they take this sort of thing very seriously.

It is an integral part of running a bus service properly, but heretofore our local authorities don't seem to have been interested in playing their part.