Free Range VS Organic

oo7

Hi,

I understand both of the above terms, but i can never seem to find a chicken or eggs that are 'Free Range AND Organic'

It seems like you have to choose from one or the other. Is there a reason for this?

Which is actually better for you:

01 - Free Range Egg OR Organic Egg
02 - Free Range Chicken OR Organic Chicken

September1

All organic are free range in European Union. Basically organic eggs have more restrictions that free range, restricting what could be fed to hens, antibiotics use and minimal outside area for hens. There is no advantage known to be using any kinds of eggs but welfare of animals is better protected in organic than free range eggs.

Some reads:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Council_Directive_1999/74/EC
https://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/food_products_animal_origin_eggs.html

oo7

Ok cool, so organic eggs are free range too... what about chicken.

I'll read up on those when i get home tonite, thanks.

September1

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Organic means the chickens are fed with organic feed. It doesn't necessarily mean they're also free-range, as far as I know.

Not in European Union, here organic means that certain conditions on facilities can be met. For example organic chicken production is limited in size (eg. max number of chickens is 4800 and laying hens is 3000).

oo7

ok, thanks

Alf Veedersane

September1 wrote: »

Not in European Union, here organic means that certain conditions on facilities can be met. For example organic chicken production is limited in size (eg. max number of chickens is 4800 and laying hens is 3000).

I realised that and deleted the post because it was wrong.

iPink

The organic eggs in lidl & aldi (for example) all say that they are 'from hens left to wander freely during daylight hours' or words to that effect (not 100% certain of EXACT wording!).

which leads me to believe that as well as being fed organic food they are also free range. ...

oo7

Ok cool, thanks...

I think there needs to be a much stricter regulator / authority in place as i don't think the majority of people understand or know half of what they are eating, or the nutrients or should i say lack of nutrients.

I was speaking to a truck driver last week who now transports (imports) large "blocks" of chicken, in other words pallets of processed chicken meat mashed together into blocks. That just simply shouldn't be allowed into this country.

Just read this now too - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/high-protein-diet-could-be-as-dangerous-as-smoking-study-1.1713266

goosey5

oo7 wrote: »

Hi,

I understand both of the above terms, but i can never seem to find a chicken or eggs that are 'Free Range AND Organic'

It seems like you have to choose from one or the other. Is there a reason for this?

Which is actually better for you:

01 - Free Range Egg OR Organic Egg
02 - Free Range Chicken OR Organic Chicken

I
I am an organic farmer , organic has higher standards than free range, less than half the hens in a house of organic as against free range , organics are fed meals which are completely free of pesticides , herbicides and chemical fertiliser , and medicines are strictly controlled and only used after the vets advice ! Free range get fed the same food as battery hens ! It does bug me that labels don't carry organic free range , instead of just organic !

September1

goosey5 wrote: »

I
I am an organic farmer , organic has higher standards than free range, less than half the hens in a house of organic as against free range , organics are fed meals which are completely free of pesticides , herbicides and chemical fertiliser , and medicines are strictly controlled and only used after the vets advice ! Free range get fed the same food as battery hens ! It does bug me that labels don't carry organic free range , instead of just organic !

Thank you for work! I agree that labeling is not exactly fair to hard work that is needed to go from free range level to organic level. I would say that free range should be called somehow different, as it is not what typical consumer would imagine it is. Other thing is that organic for plants means so much less than organic for animal products and people are wondering why organic chicken or eggs are so much more expensive than difference on vegetables.

sok2005

goosey5 wrote: »

I
I am an organic farmer , organic has higher standards than free range, less than half the hens in a house of organic as against free range , organics are fed meals which are completely free of pesticides , herbicides and chemical fertiliser , and medicines are strictly controlled and only used after the vets advice ! Free range get fed the same food as battery hens ! It does bug me that labels don't carry organic free range , instead of just organic !

I always wondered what happened to organically raised animals that get sick, are they given meds, left to suffer or culled?

goosey5

sok2005 wrote: »

I always wondered what happened to organically raised animals that get sick, are they given meds, left to suffer or culled?

A good farmer would see sickness quickly and know how to treat acording to the illness ,better to give small amount of meds early than large amount too late! Certainly they would not be let suffer, it upsets any farmer to lose an animal

rustyzip

goosey5 wrote: »

I
I am an organic farmer , organic has higher standards than free range, less than half the hens in a house of organic as against free range , organics are fed meals which are completely free of pesticides , herbicides and chemical fertiliser , and medicines are strictly controlled and only used after the vets advice ! Free range get fed the same food as battery hens ! It does bug me that labels don't carry organic free range , instead of just organic !

As an organic farmer, can you tell me what happens to Irish organic eggs after they've been picked?
The below might be just what happens in America but I would love to know if something similar is used in Ireland.

'In America they get aa chlorine bath and mineral oil coating before they are nestled into their cartons. There are vast differences in how eggs are processed and handled, even under the "certified organic" label.
As it turns out, what happens outside the shell is as important as what happens inside the shell, and that is the focus of this report.
Your Egg's Journey from Hen to Market

Ideally, eggs should be processed the day after they are laid. The USDA requires processing within 30 days of lay. High-quality eggs are processed within seven days of lay.
Egg processing involves the following six steps:

1. Egg collecting
2. Cooling
3. Cleaning/Disinfecting
4. Candling (a measure for assessing the interior quality of the eggs whereby eggs are held up in front of a high-intensity light and visually examined; among other problems, cracks can be identified that necessitate disposal of the egg)
5. Grading
6. Packing/Labeling

It is the cleaning process that you as a consumer should be aware of, because in this step, chemicals and contaminants may be introduced that compromise your eggs' quality.

Why Eggshells Are Like Your Skin

Did you know that, like your skin, eggshells are actually a porous membrane rather than an impermeable barrier?
An eggshell contains approximately 7,500 pores or openings. The outer surface is covered with a waxy cuticle (called the bloom when on a chicken egg), sealing the egg and helping prevent bacteria from entering.
Gases are transferred and moisture is lost through these pores.
When moisture is lost, carbon dioxide is also lost, speeding up the breakdown of the egg.i Loss of carbon dioxide causes the egg's pH to increase, which results in thinning of the albumen.
Why is this important?
Because commercial processing regularly destroys this protective cuticle.
As it turns out, it is standard industry practice to wash chicken eggs. Depending on the method of washing, the cuticle can be easily damaged, which leaves your eggs vulnerable to contamination and faster spoilage. The egg industry knows this, so to replace what Mother Nature put there for good reason, they must coat the egg with something—often mineral oil. It's akin to adding preservatives to processed foods.
Not only is mineral oil a non-natural agent, but it's a petroleum product that was never intended for you to eat.
Some egg producers use vegetable oil as a more natural alternative.
If you are a culinary talent, you might be surprised to hear that using eggs whose shells were oiled will prevent those "stiff peaks" from happening, because some percentage of the oil seeps into the egg white.
Not all eggs undergo oiling, but many larger producers do, particularly if they are preparing their eggs for long-distance shipment and/or storage.
According to the "incredible edible egg"ii website, about 10 percent of all eggs are oiled. I could find no statistic about what percentage of eggs are cleaned in a way that their cuticle has been wiped out, but I suspect it is much higher than 10 percent.
Like your skin, what's put ON your egg goes INTO your egg. Meaning, whatever the eggshell comes into contact with can cross over this semi-permeable membrane and end up in your scrambled eggs, from chlorine to mineral oil to dish soap -- to salmonella.

Your Organic Eggs May Be Chlorinated or Rinsed in Lye

According to A Guide to On-Farm Processing for Organic Producers: Table Eggs,iii detergents and other chemicals used for "wet cleaning" eggs must either be non-synthetic or among the allowed synthetics on the National List of allowed non-agricultural substances (205.603 of the National Organic Standard).
These synthetics include:

• Chlorine (sodium hypochlorate)
• Sodium carbonate
• Ozone
• Hydrogen peroxide
• Peracetic acid (peroxyacetic acid) -- a mixture of vinegar and hydrogen peroxide

These agents serve mostly as sanitizers, rather than washing agents.
If chlorine is used at levels over 4 ppm, it must be followed with a clean water rinse at no more than 4 ppm residual levels. Chlorine itself is relatively benign and breaks down to chloride in your body -- which is not much different from the chloride ion in table salt.
However, chlorine can interact with organic materials to form highly toxic compounds called DBPs (disinfection byproducts), which can be carcinogenic and mutagenic. And eggs are an "organic material," which bears the question of: what chemical interactions are occurring in a chlorinated egg that have yet to be discovered?
Instead of harsh chemicals, the guide cited above recommends cleaning eggs with plain vinegar (mixed with 3 parts water) because it is non-synthetic and quite effective at removing both bacteria and stains on the eggshells (which some people find objectionable).
Some farmers report rinsing eggs very quickly in water, just to dislodge any debris, and believe this is adequate. Others use a dry brushing process -- no liquids at all -- just a brush, sandpaper, or a loofah sponge.
This dry brushing technique is highly recommended for small producers.
If eggs are rinsed in water, it is very important that the wash water be about 20 degrees warmer than the eggs, and at least 90 degrees F, but not more than 40 degrees above the eggs' temperature because of the risk of thermal cracking. This proper temperature gradient encourages the contents of the egg to swell and push the dirt out of the pores.
If the water is too cold relative to the egg, the egg can literally "suck in" the washing solution -- along with the bacteria in it. Water exposure should be as brief as possible to minimize the potential for contamination, and the eggs dried immediately.
Mineral oil is not listed in the National List of allowed substances.
I think it is unlikely that an organic farmer would choose to use mineral oil, but the regulations are so variable from state to state, and the national guidelines so nebulous, that there is lots of wiggle room.

Irish eggs don't get washed iirc, it's just in USA
I think in USA it's illegal NOT to wash them, but in UK & Ire it's illegal to?

rustyzip

bluewolf wrote: »

Irish eggs don't get washed iirc, it's just in USA
I think in USA it's illegal NOT to wash them, but in UK & Ire it's illegal to?

Really?? That's mad. America and food regulation is bonkers.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2012/10/25/why-american-eggs-would-be-illegal-in-a-british-supermarket-and-vice-versa/


Ireland:
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingsectors/poultry/Labellingandhygieneguidelinesforheneggs140111.pdf

Washing of eggs is not allowed. Washing of eggs can damage the invisible natural protective coating on the egg
shell which may in-turn increase the risk of penetration of the egg by Salmonella bacteria

http://www.fsai.ie/faq/egg_washing.html

BigProblem

is there much difference in quality between buying free range chicken fillets and non free range chicken fillets? obviously the free range cost more but for training and getting the protein in do people always buy free range :cool:

laoch na mona

a little of topic but wort sharing
the stupidest thing I ever saw was a box of organic eggs which claimed the hens were free range and had a strict vegetarian diet, Clearly one of these claims had to be false as chickens in a field will scratch for worms ect

mickman

oo7 wrote: »

Ok cool, thanks...

I think there needs to be a much stricter regulator / authority in place as i don't think the majority of people understand or know half of what they are eating, or the nutrients or should i say lack of nutrients.

I was speaking to a truck driver last week who now transports (imports) large "blocks" of chicken, in other words pallets of processed chicken meat mashed together into blocks. That just simply shouldn't be allowed into this country.

Just read this now too - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/high-protein-diet-could-be-as-dangerous-as-smoking-study-1.1713266

That sounds disgusting!

mickman

laoch na mona wrote: »

a little of topic but wort sharing
the stupidest thing I ever saw was a box of organic eggs which claimed the hens were free range and had a strict vegetarian diet, Clearly one of these claims had to be false as chickens in a field will scratch for worms ect

i would think that some chicken producers say free range if the chickens get 5 mins of time outside during hte day. they would be put back inside then and fed this "vegetarian diet"

pprendeville

Would someone mind explaining what is the difference between a free range chicken which is sold in Aldi/Lidl and a non-free range chicken which is sold in any shop? i'm guessing the part free range refers to them being allowed to roam for food but are they pumped with hormones or other stuff to help them "grow". a butcher told my Dad today in Supervalu there are no differences between the two. This particular Supervalu doesn't sell free range chickens.

ford2600

pprendeville wrote: »

Would someone mind explaining what is the difference between a free range chicken which is sold in Aldi/Lidl and a non-free range chicken which is sold in any shop? i'm guessing the part free range refers to them being allowed to roam for food but are they pumped with hormones or other stuff to help them "grow". a butcher told my Dad today in Supervalu there are no differences between the two. This particular Supervalu doesn't sell free range chickens.

Insofar as I know "free range" means they are allowed a certain amount of space to roam on grass for food; not sure how many hours of day is requirement.

Chicken growers (what a lovely word) often get around it by have the space and opening but arranging the lighting such that roaming doesn't happen.

Hormones in Irish chicken would be unlikely I would think, lots of antibiotics I would think, grain only diet, whatever temperature/lighting will optimise growing.

Factory farming irrespective of what's being farmed poultry/pork etc barely qualifies as meat in my book. I still eat a little bacon but having visited a piggery or two it's hard to justify in a healthy diet.

In an Irish context have the lamb, beef and wild fish. I paid 130 for a mountain lamb in November; have bought off same farmer for 6 years. Quality is excellent; I think he supplies a lot of Dublin restaurants. It's very good value if you like fat and like to stew/slow cook.

Decent eggs are pretty easy to get however and not any more expensive than lidl/aldi.

There are two large egg producers near me with thousands of hens foraging on grass.

pprendeville

Thanks for that Ford. Youre right about buying in bulk. I bought a lamb off a local organic farmer last year. Best meat I ever had. Raised along the shores of the Shannon. I later met someone who told me they pay a premium over in France for lamb raised near the shore as the land they graze on is tidal and the salts deposited from the estuary give the meat a unique flavour and are probably beneficial to the animal as well.

No doubt, easy to get organic eggs and I have a few suppliers. Twas just the free range chicken I was keen to find out more about. So would you say theres a big difference or not between free range chickens and non-free range from a nutrition perspective?

ford2600

pprendeville wrote: »

Thanks for that Ford. Youre right about buying in bulk. I bought a lamb off a local organic farmer last year. Best meat I ever had. Raised along the shores of the Shannon. I later met someone who told me they pay a premium over in France for lamb raised near the shore as the land they graze on is tidal and the salts deposited from the estuary give the meat a unique flavour and are probably beneficial to the animal as well.

No doubt, easy to get organic eggs and I have a few suppliers. Twas just the free range chicken I was keen to find out more about. So would you say theres a big difference or not between free range chickens and non-free range from a nutrition perspective?

I'd doubt there is much difference in their diet or living conditions to make much difference

pprendeville

ford2600 wrote: »

I'd doubt there is much difference in their diet or living conditions to make much difference

do you eat much chicken or is it mainly the red meat and wild fish you mentioned?

ford2600

pprendeville wrote: »

do you eat much chicken or is it mainly the red meat and wild fish you mentioned?

I tend to but a decent chicken a few times a year and eat it all; not bad value then.

Roast on top of whatever veg I have, plenty salt on skin and butter underneath it.

Turn upside down for last 20 mins to brown underside.

Remove all meat and chicken from chicken and mix with veg, meat juices and fat in roasting tray and serve. I usually serve the breasr meat to others but the taste is in the brown meat and skin for meat along with the fat and meat juices.

Lots of deer shot near me( I don't have time myself lately), so between that beef.lamb and fish there isn't much room for chicken.

On fish, watch out for the organic con; usually means farmed fish fed "organic" feed. Omega 3 fats are main reason people eat fish, fish will only be high in omega 3 if they are eating plankton. Ditto grass fed beef/butter etc

pprendeville

I tend to but a decent chicken a few times a year and eat it all; not bad value then.

Yup, same here for the chicken, the taste comes from the skin. I love the skin especially when it's crunchy. Must turn it upside-down next time round.

There's a local man who shoots a lot of deer also nearby. Got a nice shot of it including burgers which are lovely fried with onions.

Thanks for the headsup on the fish. I just try to go with Atlantic caught and avoid the salmon at all costs.