Waterford to London Route

O Riain

Any news on a possible Waterford to London Route at the airport? Heard there would be some announcement coming towards Summer but have not heard anything yet.

wellboytoo

I have heard only rumours , mainly with flybe dropping 30 routes over the last 18 months any potential airline based in UK is hoovering up the cream of these rather than basing a plane and crews in Ireland,and the Minister is giving them this year to get a carrier and all bets are off after that.
As I say rumour only,

savic04

This above is fairly true.. I have heard in the past numbers of weeks that despite decent uptake of seats that Flybe could be gone from WAT altogether by mid summer..

Teebor15

Rumours, rumours, rumours...I heard the world is going to end on Friday around tea time!

The FACTS are that Flybe are in the middle of a cost-cutting and restructuring program under new management. They have already cut what they have planned to cut in the current plan and neither the Birmingham or Manchester routes were on that list. Forward bookings are very positive at the moment especially on Birmingham, with I presume many people using Birmingham to get to London. In saying that, passenger numbers are not always a reliable guide to how well a route is doing as 70 passengers paying €50 yields a less return than 40 passengers paying €100. But I'd say they are doing ok.

Talks are still on going with a number of carriers though so far its proving elusive due to the logistics of postioning and aircraft on to the route. Also the lack of carriers with suitably sized aircraft flying into the London airports. London city airport is the only airport which has these airlines/aircraft but this airport really just facilitates business travellers and would not work from Waterford. Luton is still the ideal choice followed by Stansted and then finally Southend again. Heathrow and Gatwick are non runners.

I'd still be optimistic but it is true that they would want to get something sorted out sooner rather than later though.

wellboytoo

Teebor15 wrote: »

Rumours, rumours, rumours...I heard the world is going to end on Friday around tea time!

.

Steady now I thought thats what I said?

wellboytoo

I hear planning permission will be lodged for the runway extension in the next fortnight.

ComeraghBlue

Great news if true. Ryanair have publicly stated that the runway is the only hindrance to them coming to WAT

wellboytoo

it's trwue It's trwue...
In my best Gene Wilder accent

Teebor15

Planning permission is one thing, funding is another thing altogether. Still though, its steps in the right direction, even if they are only baby ones!

Dum_Dum

wellboytoo wrote: »

I hear planning permission will be lodged for the runway extension in the next fortnight.

Is this permission for a runway to accommodate 737-800 ("Ryanair") or for the shorter one that won't?

b757

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Is this permission for a runway to accommodate 737-800 ("Ryanair") or for the shorter one that won't?

Shorter one that doesn't I believe. Let's wait and see..

wellboytoo

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Is this permission for a runway to accommodate 737-800 ("Ryanair") or for the shorter one that won't?

personally I hope its the shorter one for the Airbus, Ryanair would spell the death knell for WTD in the long run IMHO

hardybuck

Ryanair would probably advertise it as Dublin (Waterford) or Cork (Waterford)!

I doubt they'd operate there though. They've stated publicly that airports like Waterford are unviable if I remember correctly.

old gregg

I want to walk out my front door and be clubbing in Berlin 3 hours later. Is that too much to ask?:D

Dum_Dum

wellboytoo wrote: »

personally I hope its the shorter one for the Airbus, Ryanair would spell the death knell for WTD in the long run IMHO

In the long run we're all dead. In the mean time I want to fly cheaply just like the rest of Europe has been doing for the last fifteen years.

wellboytoo

Dum_Dum wrote: »

In the long run we're all dead. In the mean time I want to fly cheaply just like the rest of Europe has been doing for the last fifteen years.

That's my desire too, keep Ryanair out .
Let Easyjet in who can't come to Ireland without O Leary kicking seven shades of ****e out of them, their based in Luton we need a flight to Luton connections through their network all over Europe.simples and the added bonus being we get people from outside our natural catchment area to use Easyjet.

Irishlad2014

I think with the runway extension we would be looking at an airline like Cityjet coming in. The runway will be about the same size as London City Airport.

O Riain

A lot of people here saying Ryanair would be the death of the airport, all the while, the other airport have been booming the past few years because of that same airline.

fricatus

O Riain wrote: »

A lot of people here saying Ryanair would be the death of the airport, all the while, the other airport have been booming the past few years because of that same airline.

Yeah, they've been the saviour of Shannon, non?

wellboytoo

O Riain wrote: »

A lot of people here saying Ryanair would be the death of the airport, all the while, the other airport have been booming the past few years because of that same airline.

I disagree their MO is go in shut down all competitors and then revert back to their nearest hub.

O Riain

fricatus wrote: »

Yeah, they've been the saviour of Shannon, non?

They fly all over Europe from Shannon and while Shannon may not be doing the best in respect of its prosperous past it is doing a whole lot better then our poor little airport.

Also as for Ryanair's 'MO' of moving into an airport, destroying the competitors and then abandoning the airport. They fly all over Europe from Knock and Kerry and have been doing so for years. When are they planning to pull out of those airports?

larrymiller

Where can you fly to from Waterford?

b757

larrymiller wrote: »

Where can you fly to from Waterford?

Currently, Birmingham and Manchester with FlyBe.

wellboytoo

O Riain wrote: »

Also as for Ryanair's 'MO' of moving into an airport, destroying the competitors and then abandoning the airport. They fly all over Europe from Knock and Kerry and have been doing so for years. When are they planning to pull out of those airports?

They have a PSO from Kerry and knock is lucrative for them.

Odats

Irishlad2014 wrote: »

I think with the runway extension we would be looking at an airline like Cityjet coming in. The runway will be about the same size as London City Airport.

Cityjet too dear on price and wouldn't be competitive and recreational traffic is not their core business model. Their niche is the executive market getting into the city. They wouldn't touch Waterford with a bargepole.

Odats

The only way to make a go of it is to extend the runway to cope with 737's. Other than that it is not worth the outlay of construction.

In order for the airport to be successful your price point needs to at least match or be within range of a flight and factoring in the cost of travel of a round trip to Dublin or Cork as we know people are finicky and will put the 2 hour trip to Dublin to save a few bob.

Jamie2k9

Ryanair won't ever come to the airport, if they do they will operate a flight maybe a few days a week in the middle of the day which is useless for the majority of passengers who use the route. Given the runway extinction it would heavily restrict a B738 and something FR will get board of fast as they will have bigger and better places to fly.

People should do a google search about Ryanair's view on WAT airport, it isn't good either!

Hopefully they get somebody soon.

They fly all over Europe from Shannon and while Shannon may not be doing the best in respect of its prosperous past it is doing a whole lot better then our poor little airport.

Also as for Ryanair's 'MO' of moving into an airport, destroying the competitors and then abandoning the airport. They fly all over Europe from Knock and Kerry and have been doing so for years. When are they planning to pull out of those airports?

That bubble will burst soon, it's got to when they are being charged €1 per passenger!

fricatus

wellboytoo wrote: »

I hear planning permission will be lodged for the runway extension in the next fortnight.

So, has the planning permission been lodged?

wellboytoo

fricatus wrote: »

So, has the planning permission been lodged?

No but still imminent from what I hear, I will check and report back my Teutonic friend....

BuffyBot

Well with Aer Arann taking on a franchise operation for FlyBe out of London Southend, maybe FlyBe might end up serving the London market that way.

Teebor15

So, has the planning permission been lodged?

Yes, on the 14th March, about 4 weeks ago. decision due on the 8th May.

"Phased extensions to the existing airport runway and turning circle within the airport (150m and 200m runway extensions; 350m total runway extension and 375m including turning circle) and all associated works"

Not sure what difference the 150m will make. The 375m will bring it up to 1808m if full proposal is implemented which would open up a few more doors. The runway width may still be an issue with some carriers but would probably be workable.

b757

Does anyone seem to have a link for the planning permission? I can't seem to find it online.

wellboytoo

fricatus wrote: »

So, has the planning permission been lodged?

As you see above yes and I spoke to my contact who assures me "done and dusted"

fricatus

wellboytoo wrote: »

As you see above yes and I spoke to my contact who assures me "done and dusted"

Did they fly the brown envelope to the relevant councillor's house? :P

hardybuck

Can anyone outline the ambitions behind this extension? What real benefits should it offer the airport?

fricatus

hardybuck wrote: »

Can anyone outline the ambitions behind this extension? What real benefits should it offer the airport?

Ability to cater for larger planes, which means that it can service a wider range of carriers basically.

Once Kerry upgraded its runway, it was able to cater for Ryanair, and now it has a good range of flights to places like Stansted and even as far away as Frankfurt.

That's all we need TBH. We're not Dubai! London, Birmingham, Manchester, then maybe Paris, Amsterdam and somewhere in Germany. It's a realistic target based on the experiences of Knock and Kerry, and it would be enough to look after the demand that would be there in the SE.

hardybuck

fricatus wrote: »

Ability to cater for larger planes, which means that it can service a wider range of carriers basically.

Once Kerry upgraded its runway, it was able to cater for Ryanair, and now it has a good range of flights to places like Stansted and even as far away as Frankfurt.

That's all we need TBH. We're not Dubai! London, Birmingham, Manchester, then maybe Paris, Amsterdam and somewhere in Germany. It's a realistic target based on the experiences of Knock and Kerry, and it would be enough to look after the demand that would be there in the SE.

And will this proposed extension bring Waterford into line with the likes of Kerry, Knock etc.?

Yeah, if you had a wishlist of three additional routes in the morning, you'd probably be looking for London, Amsterdam and probably a toss up between Frankfurt and Paris.

fricatus

hardybuck wrote: »

And will this proposed extension bring Waterford into line with the likes of Kerry, Knock etc.?

The runway would be 1808m, whereas Knock is 2340m and Kerry is 2012m.

I read somewhere that Ryanair require 1850m for the 737-800. Can anyone clarify this? Any idea why this wouldn't be the target if there's work going on?

O Riain

fricatus wrote: »

The runway would be 1808m, whereas Knock is 2340m and Kerry is 2012m.

I read somewhere that Ryanair require 1850m for the 737-800. Can anyone clarify this? Any idea why this wouldn't be the target if there's work going on?

Because this is Ireland we are in. Here the standard is "if you are going to do something, make sure you don't do it right".

hardybuck

fricatus wrote: »

The runway would be 1808m, whereas Knock is 2340m and Kerry is 2012m.

I read somewhere that Ryanair require 1850m for the 737-800. Can anyone clarify this? Any idea why this wouldn't be the target if there's work going on?

Yeah it seems from the outside looking in to be a bit of a missed opportunity?

I think €1.25m is the cost of this job? Not a huge pile of money. You'd expect that if the extra length was linked to attracting the extra carriers and routes, they could make a business case to secure funds to pay for that.

Teebor15

O Riain wrote: »

Because this is Ireland we are in. Here the standard is "if you are going to do something, make sure you don't do it right".

What do you know about this subject? You must have some expertise in this area to be able to comment like that? What way would you go about completing this project?

wellboytoo

hardybuck wrote: »

Yeah it seems from the outside looking in to be a bit of a missed opportunity?

I think €1.25m is the cost of this job? Not a huge pile of money. You'd expect that if the extra length was linked to attracting the extra carriers and routes, they could make a business case to secure funds to pay for that.

Performance
Maximum Range : approx. 5,000km
Minimum Take-off Distance : 1,707m
Minimum Landing Distance : 1,540m

The above are specs for the Airbus supplied to Easyjet who have no base in Ireland and are based in Luton, this is where I would be targeting my efforts!

O Riain

Teebor15 wrote: »

What do you know about this subject? You must have some expertise in this area to be able to comment like that? What way would you go about completing this project?

I'm not on about the quality of the project being carried out. I'm talking about the fact that, rather then go all out and do a proper runway extension, the government are only providing enough money for a small extension.

Teebor15

hardybuck wrote: »

Yeah it seems from the outside looking in to be a bit of a missed opportunity?

I think €1.25m is the cost of this job? Not a huge pile of money. You'd expect that if the extra length was linked to attracting the extra carriers and routes, they could make a business case to secure funds to pay for that.

Look, of course the Airport would like to build have a 2000m runway to open all doors, but without the state or a philanthropist dipping their hands into their pockets then it ain't going to happen.

So instead they are doing the best they can, since the original promised capital funding was withdrawn they have took stock and rather sit idly by moaning, they have used every possible avenue open to them to secure small amounts of funding to complete many of the periphery tasks that would have been part of the overall project anyway. These include,

Removing an entire hill from one side of the runway to the other.
Purchasing the land required for the extension at either end and grading it ready for tarmac.
All new airfield lighting installed with the ducting moved further from the runway edge to cater for the possible widening of the runway.
Navigation antennas moved further from the south end to cater for extension.
At the moment contractors are just completing a major security fence project on the south side. Ring fencing all the land required for the extension. Just drive the back road from Tramore to Dunmore East and you will see what I'm talking about.

They are doing as much as what little resources they have to get everything ready for the final piece of just to laying the tarmac. I believe they will have to secure the 1m approx to do that themselves also from the private sector.

The reason they have submitted planning for what they have is simply that's all they they feel they afford to do by raising money themselves, and even that may be pushing it. That's why they hope to get 150m done first and then add another 200m in a few years after more more bag packing or sponsored cycles!

1850m for a B737 is just a nominal figure. There are many variables which decide what length is required like type of 737, engine type, how many passengers, how much fuel is required, how far are they going? the wind direction and speed, the outside air temperature, Runway width, runway strength, Is the runway damp or wet?, is the runway on a slope? are there obstacles on the climbout, etc. A fully loaded B737-800 would require over 2000m to go max distance, whereas an empty one to Dublin might only need 1400m.

In summary the airport are taking small steps on their own to hopefully keep the show on the road and eventually get to where we need be (We as in a proper airport for the south east)

O Riain

Teebor15 wrote: »

Look, of course the Airport would like to build have a 2000m runway to open all doors, but without the state or a philanthropist dipping their hands into their pockets then it ain't going to happen.

So instead they are doing the best they can, since the original promised capital funding was withdrawn they have took stock and rather sit idly by moaning, they have used every possible avenue open to them to secure small amounts of funding to complete many of the periphery tasks that would have been part of the overall project anyway. These include,

Removing an entire hill from one side of the runway to the other.
Purchasing the land required for the extension at either end and grading it ready for tarmac.
All new airfield lighting installed with the ducting moved further from the runway edge to cater for the possible widening of the runway.
Navigation antennas moved further from the south end to cater for extension.
At the moment contractors are just completing a major security fence project on the south side. Ring fencing all the land required for the extension. Just drive the back road from Tramore to Dunmore East and you will see what I'm talking about.

They are doing as much as what little resources they have to get everything ready for the final piece of just to laying the tarmac. I believe they will have to secure the 1m approx to do that themselves also from the private sector.

The reason they have submitted planning for what they have is simply that's all they they feel they afford to do by raising money themselves, and even that may be pushing it. That's why they hope to get 150m done first and then add another 200m in a few years after more more bag packing or sponsored cycles!

1850m for a B737 is just a nominal figure. There are many variables which decide what length is required like type of 737, engine type, how many passengers, how much fuel is required, how far are they going? the wind direction and speed, the outside air temperature, Runway width, runway strength, Is the runway damp or wet?, is the runway on a slope? are there obstacles on the climbout, etc. A fully loaded B737-800 would require over 2000m to go max distance, whereas an empty one to Dublin might only need 1400m.

In summary the airport are taking small steps on their own to hopefully keep the show on the road and eventually get to where we need be (We as in a proper airport for the south east)

I knew there was good work going on out in the airport and it's good to get an idea of just what the people involved in the airport are doing.

It is terrible that these people have to put in the extra work due to the lack of help from the government but it is good at least that we have these people willing to fight for the airport and hopefully develop it.

hardybuck

Teebor15 wrote: »

Look, of course the Airport would like to build have a 2000m runway to open all doors, but without the state or a philanthropist dipping their hands into their pockets then it ain't going to happen.

So instead they are doing the best they can, since the original promised capital funding was withdrawn they have took stock and rather sit idly by moaning, they have used every possible avenue open to them to secure small amounts of funding to complete many of the periphery tasks that would have been part of the overall project anyway. These include,

Removing an entire hill from one side of the runway to the other.
Purchasing the land required for the extension at either end and grading it ready for tarmac.
All new airfield lighting installed with the ducting moved further from the runway edge to cater for the possible widening of the runway.
Navigation antennas moved further from the south end to cater for extension.
At the moment contractors are just completing a major security fence project on the south side. Ring fencing all the land required for the extension. Just drive the back road from Tramore to Dunmore East and you will see what I'm talking about.

They are doing as much as what little resources they have to get everything ready for the final piece of just to laying the tarmac. I believe they will have to secure the 1m approx to do that themselves also from the private sector.

The reason they have submitted planning for what they have is simply that's all they they feel they afford to do by raising money themselves, and even that may be pushing it. That's why they hope to get 150m done first and then add another 200m in a few years after more more bag packing or sponsored cycles!

1850m for a B737 is just a nominal figure. There are many variables which decide what length is required like type of 737, engine type, how many passengers, how much fuel is required, how far are they going? the wind direction and speed, the outside air temperature, Runway width, runway strength, Is the runway damp or wet?, is the runway on a slope? are there obstacles on the climbout, etc. A fully loaded B737-800 would require over 2000m to go max distance, whereas an empty one to Dublin might only need 1400m.

In summary the airport are taking small steps on their own to hopefully keep the show on the road and eventually get to where we need be (We as in a proper airport for the south east)

Fair enough. So, in your opinion, what's a realistic type of success for them? Attract one more carrier and about 2-4 routes?

fricatus

Great post Teebor... great to get such insight where normally all we get is speculation!

Teebor15 wrote: »

Look, of course the Airport would like to build have a 2000m runway to open all doors, but without the state or a philanthropist dipping their hands into their pockets then it ain't going to happen.

I think people know that, but it's just that to the casual observer, lengthening the runway to just short of what Ryanair (for example) use doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Why not just hold on, raise more money, then go the whole hog once that's in place? Your post has answered this I think.

Teebor15 wrote: »

1850m for a B737 is just a nominal figure. There are many variables which decide what length is required...

I think anyone with a passing interest in aviation understands this, but AFAIK, that figure is Ryanair's own standard threshold, and consequently (if that's the case) would definitely be important to this discussion.

wellboytoo wrote: »

Performance
Maximum Range : approx. 5,000km
Minimum Take-off Distance : 1,707m
Minimum Landing Distance : 1,540m

The above are specs for the Airbus supplied to Easyjet who have no base in Ireland and are based in Luton, this is where I would be targeting my efforts!

I'm assuming that's for the A319 - would that be right? Once again though, surely Easyjet impose their own standard, which would probably differ from the strict minimum set down by Airbus.

Easyjet flights to Luton would be sweet though - if that's the strategy being followed (even if they can't talk about it), it would seem to make a lot of sense!

Jamie2k9

Easyjet would be excellent and my number one option. Easyjet operate to Jersey which has a runway of 1702m so I don't see any problems with WAT for them. A few others are SEN with 1856m and they operate flights to Tenerife from it and they also operated before form Belfast City 1829m to LTN.

If that is the strategy being followed then one would hope they have held serious discussions and EZY have indicated an interest. Easyjet have recently announced 20% growth in LTN to and if it was them their network out of Luton is pretty good to connect to.

wellboytoo

fricatus wrote: »

Great post Teebor... +1



I'm assuming that's for the A319 - would that be right? Once again though, surely Easyjet impose their own standard, which would probably differ from the strict minimum set down by Airbus.

Easyjet flights to Luton would be sweet though - if that's the strategy being followed (even if they can't talk about it), it would seem to make a lot of sense!

Yes that's correct

b757

If anyone wants to look up the application, go onto the Waterford CoCo's joke of a website and in the planning section search for application number 1489.

Not much on it anyway by the way.

Jamie2k9

Are Flybe about to pull out? Both Manchester and Birmingham no longer bookable after 9 September.