Spinning or Rowing?

GreeBo

Hey,

I've just (re)-joined BenDunnes in Sandyford and they have a spinning class on every morning at 7am.
So far I keep just missing it so use the concept2 instead.

So I'm wondering which is "better" for me?
I'm trying to tighten and tone up a little bit (Im 5'11" and 11.5 stone) but have a bit of a love handles issue. Im also doing weights (benchpress, bicep curls, chinups, lat pulldown, squats, calf raises and some trap work)


I've done spinning before and do push myself in them, but I also push myself when rowing. At the moment Im doing 30mins and getting around 6600m (or the odd 5k in 22mins)

The rowing feels a lot more of an allover workout, but would I be burning more calories in a spinning class?

Cheers!

Alf Veedersane

It depends on the effort you're putting in MFP has spinning and moderate effort on the rowing machine as burning the same calories.

But I'd have said the fact that the rowing works a lot more muscles tips the scales in its favour.

GreeBo

In both cases Im working as hard as I can, Im wobbly getting off the bike and have to stay sitting down for a few mins after the rowing too, so taking me out of the equation, which is more effort...understanding that it might be a silly question

Alf Veedersane

GreeBo wrote: »

In both cases Im working as hard as I can, Im wobbly getting off the bike and have to stay sitting down for a few mins after the rowing too, so taking me out of the equation, which is more effort...understanding that it might be a silly question

If you're going to spend as long time spinning as rowing, then the calories burned probably won't differ hugely. Not enough to get bogged down in trying to work out if there's 30 or 40 calories in the difference.

LuckyLloyd

22 minutes for a 5k isn't bad at all. Keep with the rower. Do spend a half hour watching rowing technique videos ('concept 2 rowing technique' on youtube will do the job) and video a couple of minutes of yourself rowing. If you're going to put in a lot of volume on the erg it's worth trying to achieve a decent, full stroke consistently.

Having spent a lot of time on the erg over the past year I think anyone volunteering to do 30 mins on it regularly is a little mad, but it's definitely a beneficial way to spend your time!

EDIT: do mix it up a bit also. No harm in doing stuff like:

5 x 500m rows; 90 second rest between each one
3 x 1k rows; rest 1:1

and also stroke rate work, i.e. spend 30 minutes at 28 spm to really drive in consistent technique.

Pay attention to your SPM averages. The more time you spend on the erg the more that number alone should control your effort and pace - i.e. a flat out 500m test = Xspm whereas a 5k timetrial is Yspm, etc.

Alf Veedersane

I'd echo pretty much what LL said (especially the insanity of 30 minutes on it ). Worth spending a little bit of time getting the technique right for a few reasons, one of which being that you'll improve efficiency. It can be a little like swimming in that you can expend an awful lot of energy not going very far if your technique is wrong. And the proper technique is transferrable to a deadlift if doing that ever tickles your fancy.

GreeBo

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you're going to spend as long time spinning as rowing, then the calories burned probably won't differ hugely. Not enough to get bogged down in trying to work out if there's 30 or 40 calories in the difference.

Spinning class is 45 mins afaik, I've done 45 on the rower before...felt like death, much harder (imo) than 45 mins of spinning.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

22 minutes for a 5k isn't bad at all. Keep with the rower. Do spend a half hour watching rowing technique videos ('concept 2 rowing technique' on youtube will do the job) and video a couple of minutes of yourself rowing. If you're going to put in a lot of volume on the erg it's worth trying to achieve a decent, full stroke consistently.

Having spent a lot of time on the erg over the past year I think anyone volunteering to do 30 mins on it regularly is a little mad, but it's definitely a beneficial way to spend your time!

EDIT: do mix it up a bit also. No harm in doing stuff like:

5 x 500m rows; 90 second rest between each one
3 x 1k rows; rest 1:1

and also stroke rate work, i.e. spend 30 minutes at 28 spm to really drive in consistent technique.

Pay attention to your SPM averages. The more time you spend on the erg the more that number alone should control your effort and pace - i.e. a flat out 500m test = Xspm whereas a 5k timetrial is Yspm, etc.

Good idea about mixing it up, at the moment its either 5k or 30 mins.
My SPM is 29/30 in both cases, I start the 30 mins at 7/8 and go to 10 for the last 5 mins, desperately trying to get the total around 6600m
for the 500 and 1k rows, should I be going 100% flat out?

I find that the thing that impacts my stroke rate the most is how quickly I return to the "start" position, if I really whip myself back I'm around 32SPM, balanced pace is 29/30 and more relaxed is 27.

Will take a look at that video, I was looking at some other ones as Ive heard how important technique is!

Think I'll stick with the rowing, there must be a good reason I'm always the only person on one for longer than 5 mins

Any good warm ups for rowing? I usually do 5/10 mins on a bike....?

Alf Veedersane

GreeBo wrote: »

Good idea about mixing it up, at the moment its either 5k or 30 mins.
My SPM is 29/30 in both cases, I start the 30 mins at 7/8 and go to 10 for the last 5 mins, desperately trying to get the total around 6600m
for the 500 and 1k rows, should I be going 100% flat out?

You're better off leaving at 1 or the other and just improving the distance you go over the time for that setting. It's a nominal number. Use 1 setting and improve the distance you go over time. Setting it at 7/8 is closest to the resistance you get when actually rowing.

GreeBo wrote: »

I find that the thing that impacts my stroke rate the most is how quickly I return to the "start" position, if I really whip myself back I'm around 32SPM, balanced pace is 29/30 and more relaxed is 27.

That's because when you complete the stroke by pulling harder, you're completing the stroke that bit more quickly.

GreeBo

found this vid, seems good!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfnAhEAa_T8

Alf Veedersane

Have a gander at this as well.

GreeBo

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You're better off leaving at 1 or the other and just improving the distance you go over the time for that setting. It's a nominal number. Use 1 setting and improve the distance you go over time. Setting it at 7/8 is closest to the resistance you get when actually rowing.


That's because when you complete the stroke by pulling harder, you're completing the stroke that bit more quickly.

Yeah makes sense, cheers.

Sorry, when I meant the start position I actually meant when Im back to the front/catch...but according to the video above it recommends a 1:2 ratio, I was trying for a 1:1 but apparently its self-defeating

Alf Veedersane

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah makes sense, cheers.

Sorry, when I meant the start position I actually meant when Im back to the front/catch...but according to the video above it recommends a 1:2 ratio, I was trying for a 1:1 but apparently its self-defeating

The 2 won't slow your times that much if you really hammer the 1

Duck's hoop

Competetive rowers are some of the fittest, hardest fcukers in sport. They do a lot of erg in the off season, ergo the indoor rower is a superb way to get fit.

Building an aerobic base should be your primary concern I think. So 3 x 10 minute sessions rating 20-22 with drag set at 135. Do this 3 days a week. Up to 3 x15 after a month then x20 another month later.

I wouldn't bother with AT or TR intervals before you've that bit of a base.

It's boring as all hell, but at your level you should see yourself get fitter almost daily.

Test yourself over 1k, rating capped at 28, pull full pressure, record time and repeat in 4 weeks.

For your endurance pieces you want to pull a split that is testing but that you can repeat for the 3 pieces. Program 5 min rest into the monitor, so everything is consistent.

You will see your splits tumble in a month. You're getting fitter.

Every time you get on it, check drag factor. Every time. Set it at 135.

Put on some decent music, or podcasts and go.

GreeBo

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Competetive rowers are some of the fittest, hardest fcukers in sport. They do a lot of erg in the off season, ergo the indoor rower is a superb way to get fit.

Building an aerobic base should be your primary concern I think. So 3 x 10 minute sessions rating 20-22 with drag set at 135. Do this 3 days a week. Up to 3 x15 after a month then x20 another month later.

I wouldn't bother with AT or TR intervals before you've that bit of a base.

It's boring as all hell, but at your level you should see yourself get fitter almost daily.

Test yourself over 1k, rating capped at 28, pull full pressure, record time and repeat in 4 weeks.

For your endurance pieces you want to pull a split that is testing but that you can repeat for the 3 pieces. Program 5 min rest into the monitor, so everything is consistent.

You will see your splits tumble in a month. You're getting fitter.

Every time you get on it, check drag factor. Every time. Set it at 135.

Put on some decent music, or podcasts and go.

yeah, rowers have always seemed pretty fit and not the "skinny" fit that I see on some cyclists (I cycled for years so no offence meant!)

My aerobic fitness isnt bad, I play 5-as-side twice a week for an hour each, and its played at 100%, end to end, pretty much interval training to be honest.

Obviously I'll be happy to get fitter but its not my goal, I want to be more toned (hence coupling with weights) and also to trim down a little

where can I determine drag, I thought the only option was the 1-10 lever?
Also what do you mean by rating 20-22?

Not sure Im going to get to the stage where I can do 3 x 20min sessions in one day...thats going to be well over an hour and I wont have done any weight work (or made it into the office on time )

What would you define as my endurance pieces? The aerobic 3 by x sessions?

cheers for the help guys!

LuckyLloyd

GreeBo wrote: »

yeah, rowers have always seemed pretty fit and not the "skinny" fit that I see on some cyclists (I cycled for years so no offence meant!)

My aerobic fitness isnt bad, I play 5-as-side twice a week for an hour each, and its played at 100%, end to end, pretty much interval training to be honest.

Obviously I'll be happy to get fitter but its not my goal, I want to be more toned (hence coupling with weights) and also to trim down a little

where can I determine drag, I thought the only option was the 1-10 lever?
Also what do you mean by rating 20-22?

Not sure Im going to get to the stage where I can do 3 x 20min sessions in one day...thats going to be well over an hour and I wont have done any weight work (or made it into the office on time )

What would you define as my endurance pieces? The aerobic 3 by x sessions?

cheers for the help guys!

There is an option on the C2 to display the drag factor as you row. The damper setting on the side dictates what the drag will be, but not every machine is equal in terms of maintenance (or lack thereof) and cumulative wear and tear.

So, a setting of 5 could equate to a drag factor of 135 on one machine, where a setting of 4 will equate to that drag factor on the C2 machine beside it. As such, if using different rowers, check the drag factor with a few strokes before you begin and adjust the damper setting appropriately (or use the same machine with the same setting always). That's the only way to ensure conditions are equal for every time you row.

The drag factor of 135 is recommended as it most closely resembles the resistance offered by water. High Performance athletes rowing in indoor 2k competitions would need to have their drag factor at 135 for their time to be considered for example.

I'm not a real rower and only row indoors competitively so I do my training with a much higher drag factor than 135. The important thing is to find a damper setting / drag factor and do ALL your training against it.

Duck's hoop

What LuckyL said. Consistency is absolutely paramount in order to quantify adaptation.

I also pull at higher drag but will lower it for longer 10-12k pieces. I find it's too much load over those times.

Rating 20-22 is your strokes per minute. Seems slow at first. But as in cycling, slow is the new fast when it comes to training.

Use your HRM as well.

I think for overall conditioning and 'toning' the rower is best. Look at the middle and upper back / lat / trap development of most rowers. Not to mention the legs obviously.

And strong core is important so that gets hit too.

GreeBo

Did about 45 mins broken up into several sets, trying to focus on technique, quads seem to be worked much more, and much less arms which I guess is the plan. Had the drag on 100, 25 spm averaging 90 watts per stroke.

Found it difficult to get the timing right, is an effort to start back with my arms so I don't have to jump my hands over my knees. Distances are well down...

LuckyLloyd

You have to take one step back to take two forwards. If you've been used to incorrect technique, changing will feel awkward at first. But in the long term the payoff will be huge.

GreeBo

Went again this morning, just did 2k in 9:56 at 110 drag, 22 SPM

I'm a little unsure if I should be pulling (pushing with my legs I guess) as hard as I can each time or just trying to be smooth?

Also, should I be straightening my legs fully?

Alf Veedersane

GreeBo wrote: »

Went again this morning, just did 2k in 9:56 at 110 drag, 22 SPM

I'm a little unsure if I should be pulling (pushing with my legs I guess) as hard as I can each time or just trying to be smooth?

Also, should I be straightening my legs fully?

Yes, your legs should be fully extended.

Nothing wrong with pulling throwugh to complete the stroke. That won't make it less smooth. Where most people lose thesmoothness of stroke is on the way back to the catch, by trying to get there too quickly and losing the movement order.

LuckyLloyd

GreeBo wrote: »

Went again this morning, just did 2k in 9:56 at 110 drag, 22 SPM

I'm a little unsure if I should be pulling (pushing with my legs I guess) as hard as I can each time or just trying to be smooth?

Also, should I be straightening my legs fully?

Each stroke should be equally full and hard and the rate should therefore be the arbitor of how fast you go. Legs should end fully extended with the handle pulled in to your torso (just short of touching) and a slight lean back. Then you allow your arms to come forwards moving your torso with it and then legs last.

Pull hard, slower recovery and vary the stroke rate to dictate pace.

Also, up your drag. 110 too low. 135 or higher.

In terms of the 2k, your stated 5k time indicates more pace available. You can tolerate a higher spm and you'll see that time tumble. Do bear in mind though that full out 2k efforts are incredibly taxing. You won't to do much more than five or six a year maximum.

Good luck man, it's still good exercise while your working this stuff out don't forget.

Alf Veedersane

And times will suffer in the short term as you nail down the technique and figure out where you whould be pitching your effort.

But pretty soon the times will improve with technique.

GreeBo

Cheers lads.

yeah I do find that on the way back to the catch I sometimes get it wrong and hit my knees....Im trying to focus on almost stretching out with my arms before I start to bend my knees...hopefully this isn't an issue?

The 2ks werent flat out by any means, just trying to get into a rhythm and organise the steps correctly, hopefully I can get used to it and pick up some pace.

I'll up the drag next time, one of the videos said to set it low until you get the technique, I guess to try to avoid pulling with your arms maybe...?
28/29 seems comfortable to me, that what I would do for 30 mins on 8/10 for my 30 min/6660m sessions, so I guess I should be able to do that with the new technique...eventually

TommyKnocker

I found the below video very useful when I started with the Concept 2. Explains things very well I think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqVmMd7FdAA

Alf Veedersane

GreeBo wrote: »

Cheers lads.

yeah I do find that on the way back to the catch I sometimes get it wrong and hit my knees....Im trying to focus on almost stretching out with my arms before I start to bend my knees...hopefully this isn't an issue?

Think about it as if you're on the water. You get your hands past your knees and down a little to get the blade out of the water (you rotate the handles as well so it's only a small movement).

So at the catch it's (push with) legs then (pull with) arms. And on the return it's arms, then legs.

The Guvnor

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You're better off leaving at 1 or the other and just improving the distance you go over the time for that setting. It's a nominal number. Use 1 setting and improve the distance you go over time. Setting it at 7/8 is closest to the resistance you get when actually rowing.


That's because when you complete the stroke by pulling harder, you're completing the stroke that bit more quickly.

7/8 would be like rowing upstream!
2/3 would be like rowing downstream.
4/5 would be like rowing on a glass like lake.

Spinning or rowing - well imo easier to do a longer session on the bike but the erg does work more muscles - perhaps mix it up a bit.

Alf Veedersane

The Guvnor wrote: »

7/8 would be like rowing upstream!
2/3 would be like rowing downstream.
4/5 would be like rowing on a glass like lake.

Spinning or rowing - well imo easier to do a longer session on the bike but the erg does work more muscles - perhaps mix it up a bit.

Not every erg is the same. Yours is probably clogged :pac:

LuckyLloyd

The Guvnor wrote: »

7/8 would be like rowing upstream!
2/3 would be like rowing downstream.
4/5 would be like rowing on a glass like lake.

Real rowers (I'm a fake rower) always describe the damper settings in the above terms.

My experience or explanation would be slightly different:

- higher damper settings: more feedback on each stroke, each stroke feels more difficult but a lower SPM is required to maintain a faster time;
- lower damper settings: less feedback on each stroke, each stroke feels less difficult but a much higher SPM is required to maintain a faster time;

In my mind, if you're a big strong athlete who needs to stay behind your heart rate you want the damper nice and high. The lower your raw power and better your anaerobic fitness the lower you can set the drag.

If you have no plans to ever row a real boat then I think the above consideration is more important than a drag factor that best represents water. My anecdotal thoughts anyway.

Mellor

People are always talking about how 135-140 mimics water. I doubt it's that simple tbh.
Wouldn't a heavier person cause the rower to sit lower in the water, increasing drag. So bigger people should use a higher setting for realism.

Duck's hoop

Boats are not standard.

All boats, from singles to eights, are built for a particular min / max crew weight.

If you're trialling for seats or squads or whatever it's always set 135. Or 130 for women.

Mellor

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Boats are not standard.

All boats, from singles to eights, are built for a particular min / max crew weight.

If you're trialling for seats or squads or whatever it's always set 135. Or 130 for women.

It's makes sense to have uniform drag when trials g for teams as the person is going to be in the boat with 3-7 other people. Any weight related drag advantage us lost.
I was talking about singles. I've no real knowledge of rowing, so I'm mostly assuming. But is it wrong to say that a heavier person will feel more drag than to a smaller person in the same boat?

It's might not be applicable to elite level rowing, as with similar sports, there's probably an optimum weight/power

Panda_Turtle

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Every time you get on it, check drag factor. Every time. Set it at 135.

Whats drag factor 135? The rower in my gym has levels 1 - 10? I usually set it at 10, cause thats the hardest, no? Usually only do ten minutes at a time though.

Duck's hoop

You can gear a boat to feel heavy or light by adjusting inboard and span.

Singles are made for people in 5-10 kg increments so they sit neither higher nor lower than they should. It's important to use the correct size boat.

GreeBo

According to the concept2 people, lower drag settings are like a canoe, higher settings will be like a rowboat.
It takes more effort to get a rowboat moving (more inertia etc) compared to a light canoe.

Panda_Turtle, drag factor is available under the "other" options menu, its the live drag factor as measured by the machine when set to X on the 1-10 scale.
Due to various factors (wear & tear etc) level 5 for one machine could be very different to level 5 on another.

Duck's hoop

This has me confused. I'm experienced in both, as well as kayaks, and can't see how they're comparable tbh.

In a canoe you're kneeling and propelling the boat with a paddle, one side at a stroke, with upper body.

A kayak it's a double bladed paddle, sitting and bracing with feet but still only one side per stroke.

A racing single scull is very light. 14 kg, and about 16 inches across. Your main means of propulsion is your legs. You do a squat every stroke effectively.

They're very fast. And accelerate much faster than a canoe.

GreeBo

It's probably my poor terminology, low drag is like a scull, high drag is like a row boat. Think going for a row with a lady with picnic and an umbrella, much more effortrequired to get up any speed

biZrb

I'm a novice rower, so I know the pain an erg can cause!
Some great advice already given on how to use the ergs correctly - I see so many people in the gym put the drag up to 10 then row for 10 minutes with terrible technique.

The main idea with training on the rowing machine is to keep your stroke rate high and your split low (the split is the average time takes to do 500m). So if you are starting out on the ergs, set the stroke rate nice and easy at rate 20 and row for 20 minutes trying to keep your split constant. Over time you should aim to lower your split at rate 20, once you can do that then you'll feel able to increase the stroke rate and start to lower your split again.

But concentrate on technique first, once you get comfortable with that then start looking at your stroke rate and split. Just remember its arm, body, slide at the catch position. So legs extended, your back is slightly rocked back and your arms bent with the handle at your chest, then fully extend your arms, rock your body over (not all the way, just slightly) then bend your legs. Then do it the opposite way where you should put lots of power in, use your legs to drive you up the slide, you should feel it in the glutes and hamstrings.

I'll post up some of my training plan later, to give you an idea of what you could also do to stop it just being a boring 20 minute at rate 20 session.

The Guvnor

Mellor wrote: »

People are always talking about how 135-140 mimics water. I doubt it's that simple tbh.
Wouldn't a heavier person cause the rower to sit lower in the water, increasing drag. So bigger people should use a higher setting for realism.

Boats are built for a specific weight - in theory if all boats being suited for the rower the drag will be the same.

7/8 is way to high a damper setting for me personally always was - if I was to do a 2k test I would opt most likely for 3.5 or 4.

The erg is flywheel and at a basic level the goal is when this flywheel is at speed to keep it spinning in the most efficient manner possible.

Lower levels require a faster leg drive and harder catch.

The Guvnor

I know about the damper settings but as with a lucky pair of socks if one was in a rowing club you may have a favourite erg and therefore in your mind you'd keep it the same as training even if it was all just in your mind.

I actually have a model c here - must connect it back up and embrace the pain once more!

traco

The Guvnor wrote: »

7/8 is way to high a damper setting for me personally always was - if I was to do a 2k test I would opt most likely for 3.5 or 4.

The erg is flywheel and at a basic level the goal is when this flywheel is at speed to keep it spinning in the most efficient manner possible.

Lower levels require a faster leg drive and harder catch.

Can you expand on the last comment about Lower levels - faster leg drive? Is that lower strokes per min or lower drag?

I did a 2k last night and on the basis of this thread I checked the drag beforehand, had to set it to 8 to get 134 on the monitor, which I was surpised at as I was hoping it'd have been lower. Didn't matter much as I usually set it between 7/8 so it was only a fraction higher.

Tried to maintain 21 spm, lowest was 19 highest probably 26, time was 7:23.6 which was OK but faster than I was aiming for as I'm only getting back after 2.5 weeks of flu. In hindsight it mightn't have been a smart thing.

Personally I aim for low stroke count with as big a leg drive as I can manage, this gives me more recovery time on the return storke and low SPM. If I up the SPM I don't seem to get any faster on the splits and I end up using more arm, this usually happens when I'm struggling towards the end of a hard push.

I don't train rowing specifically and just have 400m warm up row to get the bllod flowing at the start of every training session so I wonder how a period of programmed rowing would see me progress.

To reply to OP question - rowing all the way if you want overall body workout, fitness, strenght and volume of blood pumped around the body. A hard 2k will probably take more out of you than a 50 min spin session but I suppose its all down to the intensity that you work at. The beauty of the C2 is that you can log everything and compete against yourself and the numbers don't lie not matter how hard you think you were working.

LuckyLloyd

Personally wouldn't recommend doing hard all out 2ks on the erg regularly. It would be an excellent testing marker after a training cycle, but it's the equivalent of an all out mile run. You'd run yourself into the ground if you were doing that all the time!

traco

I only do the 2k every 8 weeks and it does suck the life blood from you, and I can't break under 7 mins.

My last ref to the 2k was meant to be to suggest using it as a test to assess progress. A solid rowing program with specific focus on endurance and technique to build mileage ending with some intervals would be as good or better than spinning for overall body workout.

Duck's hoop

traco wrote: »

I did a 2k last night and on the basis of this thread I checked the drag beforehand, had to set it to 8 to get 134 on the monitor, which I was surpised at as I was hoping it'd have been lower. Didn't matter much as I usually set it between 7/8 so it was only a fraction higher.

Tried to maintain 21 spm, lowest was 19 highest probably 26, time was 7:23.6 which was OK but faster than I was aiming for as I'm only getting back after 2.5 weeks of flu. In hindsight it mightn't have been a smart thing.

Personally I aim for low stroke count with as big a leg drive as I can manage, this gives me more recovery time on the return storke and low SPM. If I up the SPM I don't seem to get any faster on the splits and I end up using more arm, this usually happens when I'm struggling towards the end of a hard push.

I don't train rowing specifically and just have 400m warm up row to get the bllod flowing at the start of every training session so I wonder how a period of programmed rowing would see me progress.

You won't break 7 mins if you rate 21-22 for 2k testing. You should be going out in the forties, quickly settling into low thirties, ignore the split and just pull full pressure @32 SPM.

Reason you can't pull higher SPM is you're not fit enough and need to work speed work into your programme.

Guvnor's point is that the erg is a flywheel. You work v hard to get it spinning, then you 'flick' it along with your strokes, maintaining momentum, not allowing it to slow. Think of spinning a bike wheel with your hand/finger as a kid is the analogy often used.

In that regard it's v like on the water rowing where you go anaerobic to get up to speed, settle in then bust yourself again on sprint piece for line.

traco

I think my fastest 2k is 7:06 and has been sub 7:10 for a while. I would consider myself fairly fit and even with a dodgy chest pulled a 2 x 500m with 90 sec recovery at 1:37.4 & 1:38.3 on Tuesday. Regular 500m test is usually 1:29 or therabouts.

I see what you're saying about flicking it along but if I go mid to high 30's my splits don't improve, if anything they drop off as I end up doing the flick with the arms if that makes sense. By slowing down the strokes I the flywheel drops speed and I catch it with the leg drive rather than my arms.

It's something I'd like to improve, I've linked a few pages I'd bookmarked but they suggest go with what works for you personally. I have been working on trying to keep the strokes low to develop as much power as possible and distance per stroke but maybe thats not right. I know my legs would not maintain 40 spm for 7 mins, I'd be all arms at about 1k at that pace. By the way I'm 6'4 and 104 kg so lashing in and out at a high rate will take a huge toll on me.

For 2014 I'd love to get 6:55 for 2k and 1:25 for 500m so

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11805
http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5771&start=15

LuckyLloyd

Duck's hoop wrote: »

You won't break 7 mins if you rate 21-22 for 2k testing. You should be going out in the forties, quickly settling into low thirties, ignore the split and just pull full pressure @32 SPM.

Reason you can't pull higher SPM is you're not fit enough and need to work speed work into your programme.

Guvnor's point is that the erg is a flywheel. You work v hard to get it spinning, then you 'flick' it along with your strokes, maintaining momentum, not allowing it to slow. Think of spinning a bike wheel with your hand/finger as a kid is the analogy often used.

In that regard it's v like on the water rowing where you go anaerobic to get up to speed, settle in then bust yourself again on sprint piece for line.

My 6:54.2 2k PB was done with an average stroke rate of 23

But my 500m PB of 1:20.7 would have been with a much lower SPM than would be normal for a similar time.

Duck's hoop

I'm not saying you're not fit relatively. But you're not race fit I reckon.

Racing (on or off water) is 80% aerobic, 20% aerobic. Your training should reflect this. I think your anaerobic system needs training.

Also you need a very large aerobic endurance base.

You're probably going off too hard as well. Set a split and stick to it.

At your size and weight you should be capable of times quite a bit quicker than that if you rate higher. I don't see why rating should be so very much more difficult for you? If Matt Pinsent can do it...!

Try pulling some 500s at 28 and see what happens.

traco

I'll make a conscious effort go up the spm rate for the next cycle and see if that makes a difference.

BTW I don't specifically train rowing. I try and train 4/5 times a week in a Crossfit gym and row 400 at 1:50 as a warm up at the start of each session. Depending on programming the rower might appear once every 2 weeks in a metcon and they would usually be short high output sessions typically for cals or distance with other exercises involved.

The Guvnor

Just on strokes per minute.

A coach might well say every stroke is always the same - same power, same leg drive, everything.

On this logic the only way to go faster is to increase the spm.

In theory this is great - just go from 20spm to 30spm and away we go but as we all know it does not always pan out that way.

It is relevant although as was said speed work is essential.

Starting back tomorrow! It will be slow and I will not be setting any records apart from possibly my worst half an hour ever on the machine! :eek:

biZrb

traco wrote: »

I see what you're saying about flicking it along but if I go mid to high 30's my splits don't improve, if anything they drop off as I end up doing the flick with the arms if that makes sense. By slowing down the strokes I the flywheel drops speed and I catch it with the leg drive rather than my arms.

It's something I'd like to improve, I've linked a few pages I'd bookmarked but they suggest go with what works for you personally. I have been working on trying to keep the strokes low to develop as much power as possible and distance per stroke but maybe thats not right. I know my legs would not maintain 40 spm for 7 mins, I'd be all arms at about 1k at that pace. By the way I'm 6'4 and 104 kg so lashing in and out at a high rate will take a huge toll on me.

For 2014 I'd love to get 6:55 for 2k and 1:25 for 500m so

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11805
http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5771&start=15

To improve your split you need to put more power into your legs. Thats where the vast majority of power comes from in rowing. When you are at the catch position, so legs bent, body rocked over arms out straight, to propel your body down the slide, you push off with your legs with as much power as you can, then when your legs are extended rock your body back then you pull your arms back into your chest.

It sounds like you need to work on technique a bit before you start doing 2K tests. I tried doing a 2K test when I had only been rowing about 2 months and just couldn't sustain the stroke rate for that long.

I do think keeping a low stroke rate while trying to get a higher split is a good way to go, a high stroke rate is just moving faster up and down the slide, while the split is where the power is so if you can get a great split at a low stroke rate it'll be easier to maintain at a high stroke rate.

GreeBo

Hey
I did two by 2k's this morning both around 135 drag and 20-22 SPM

First one was 9:54 and second was 9:06.
I was really focussing on technique on both of these, though for the second one I tried *really* driving with my legs, SPM crept up a little bit to 26 though I was really trying to keep it low and enjoy my breaks. Splits really dropped, last 500m was 1:55.

So, am I doing it right?

Duck's hoop

You're doing it right if that's what you wanted to do!

Every session should have a goal, be it technique or fitness or whatever.

I would say to focus on 1 thing. And do it as well as possible. Dial in your technique and then go for times.

But do either long pieces at low rate or short at higher rate. Or intervals.

Like on your session today you wanted to be rating slow. But it crept up to what is pretty fast.

Have a good idea of what you're doing before you go in and stick to it. That's hard some times and is flexible to a point.

Or just do what the hell you want and call it Fartlek!