Ketogenic diet with a carb day?

BetterThanThou · 01-03-2014 11:40pm #1

I just want to know if anyone has anyone tried a ketogenic diet with a carb day? I've been trying the ketogenic diet this week, and I've had great success maintaining the diet, I like it much more than the typical 40/40/20 diet that I formerly was doing. I'm personally not really a carb person, bar junk food and sweets. I really don't have any interest in "clean" carbs. So, replacing the carbs with fats really does make my diet much better for me and I like the meals I've been making a lot more. But, my problem is, the idea of not being able to ever eat junk food like chocolate/soda/mcdonalds/ect is a big downside for me, and I don't think I'll be able to stick to it just because of that. I have no problem avoiding carbs during the week, even when I do have cravings I can just wait them off usually, which I've found this week I really haven't been getting that much, in fact, less than on a typical clean diet. I've heard some people do carb ups one day a week, but, as far as I know, wouldn't that be bad for the diet and ruin it for a few days due to taking your body out of ketosis? Or am I wrong on that? Does anyone here on the ketogenic diet have a carb day once a week?

Mellor · 02-03-2014 5:54am

Cyclic Ketogenic Diet - CKD
Google should throw up a load of info

oscar_mike · 02-03-2014 9:06pm

True, a day of high carbs could knock you out of ketosis, but ketosis is not strictly necessary to burn fat. The low carb effect still works even if you are not in ketosis. Like you im a big fan of junk food and takeaways so I like to have a crash day once a week where i eat what i want. It helps keep the head screwed on. Then i get back to work on low carb for the other 6 days of the week. My diet hasn't been ruined and my weight is still healthy for me. A good weeks work would easily balance out a cheat day.

MaceFace · 03-03-2014 8:22am

When you carb-up, you will be knocked out of ketosis and it will take some time to get back into a state of ketosis.
How long that takes depends on how long you are on a keto diet.

If you want to do CKD, when you first start, give it 2-4 weeks of no carb's and then you can have a carb up "period" every "so often". Remember, that after a carb-up, if you eat enough carbs, your body will replenish the glycogen stores so the days after a carb up will be about emptying those stores and getting back into ketosis. How long that takes depends on your activity level and how well your body can adapt back to a ketogenic state. Assuming you take it seriously, it can be a couple of days.

I generally don't carb up because going back on carbs after a period of no-carbs makes me feel a little nauseous. Also, it doesn't affect my performance.

Most importantly of all is that if you are going to carb-up and eat junk food, you still have to be conscious of the calories.

Soarer · 03-03-2014 12:39pm

MaceFace wrote: »

When you carb-up, you will be knocked out of ketosis and it will take some time to get back into a state of ketosis.
How long that takes depends on how long you are on a keto diet.

If you want to do CKD, when you first start, give it 2-4 weeks of no carb's and then you can have a carb up "period" every "so often". Remember, that after a carb-up, if you eat enough carbs, your body will replenish the glycogen stores so the days after a carb up will be about emptying those stores and getting back into ketosis. How long that takes depends on your activity level and how well your body can adapt back to a ketogenic state. Assuming you take it seriously, it can be a couple of days.

I generally don't carb up because going back on carbs after a period of no-carbs makes me feel a little nauseous. Also, it doesn't affect my performance.

Most importantly of all is that if you are going to carb-up and eat junk food, you still have to be conscious of the calories.

^^^^^^^^

Everything that he just said!

You have to give yourself a few weeks of no carbs to get well into keto. When you start keto first, you don't get "into it" properly for 2-3-4 days depending (ketostix are well handy for checking!). If you have a carb day within the first week or so, it'll take you another 2-3-4 days to get back into it again. But if you've been in keto for a few weeks and you have a junk day, you'll only be out of ketosis for a day or two.

That's in my personal experience anyway. Everyone is different.

Biggest thing is you like the food on the diet. A lot of people think it's too samey. I don't mind samey when it's meat!

runawaybishop · 03-03-2014 3:08pm

You can get back into keto quicker after a carb up by exercising and exhausting glycogen stores.

SantryRed · 04-03-2014 4:53pm

Sorry to slightly rob the thread, but I don't think my question warrants a new one.

Basically, I'm looking to shed a bit of body fat % off my body. I'm a healthy weight, about 12 stone 9 and 6"1. I just want to get a bit leaner and am training/in gym 4/5 times a week. Would keto suit me or is it more suited towards people looking to lose a lot of weight? Thanks.

oscar_mike · 04-03-2014 5:27pm

It would definitely suit you, technically you are still trying to loose weight by trying to loose body fat. Keto specifically targets fat while preserving muscle.

runawaybishop · 04-03-2014 6:38pm

SantryRed wrote: »

Sorry to slightly rob the thread, but I don't think my question warrants a new one.

Basically, I'm looking to shed a bit of body fat % off my body. I'm a healthy weight, about 12 stone 9 and 6"1. I just want to get a bit leaner and am training/in gym 4/5 times a week. Would keto suit me or is it more suited towards people looking to lose a lot of weight? Thanks.

It will make no difference if you are on a keto or non keto diet. If you are not on a calorie deficient you will not get leaner. Being on keto will not make you lose weight if you are eating too much.

oscar_mike · 04-03-2014 8:13pm

Do you just assume everyone who posts here is trying to loose weight on a calorie surplus?

runawaybishop · 04-03-2014 8:15pm

oscar_mike wrote: »

Do you just assume everyone who posts here is trying to loose weight on a calorie surplus?

edit: i misread what you said.

Yes, pretty much. If you are not losing weight you are on a calorie surplus.

oscar_mike · 04-03-2014 8:38pm

I didnt see anything in santry reds post to suggest he is trying to loose fat by overeating.... what if he was unhappy with his loss of % body fat because he was losing more muscle?

runawaybishop · 04-03-2014 8:41pm

oscar_mike wrote: »

I didnt see anything in santry reds post to suggest he is trying to loose fat by overeating.... what if he was unhappy with his loss of % body fat because he was losing more muscle?

Look, we can all see you are a completely biased keto enthusiast, we get that. Keto wont case fat loss by itself. Stop advising people that it will.

oscar_mike · 04-03-2014 8:49pm

Cant answer the question before you change the subject, no?

runawaybishop · 04-03-2014 9:09pm

oscar_mike wrote: »

Cant answer the question before you change the subject, no?

I have no respect for your opinion so i am not going to engage with you further.

oscar_mike · 04-03-2014 9:55pm

Oh i see, i called you out on your redundant, 2 bit advice and made up arguments, you cant defend them, so now you dont have respect for my opinion.... Naturally

Thank god your not an actual nutritionist:-) peace bro

Mellor · 05-03-2014 12:16am

oscar_mike wrote: »

Oh i see, i called you out on your redundant, 2 bit advice and made up arguments, you cant defend them, so now you dont have respect for my opinion.... Naturally

Thank god your not an actual nutritionist:-) peace bro

Why do you take such offense when people point out that, above all else, a deficit is the most important aspect of ANY fat loss diet.

Do you not agree with that fact?

oscar_mike · 05-03-2014 12:28am

Of course i agree with that fact.... its just that piece of advice wasn't relevant at the time.

Mellor · 05-03-2014 1:10am

oscar_mike wrote: »

Of course i agree with that fact.... its just that piece of advice wasn't relevant at the time.

It's probably not relevant to you, or me, or any other posters who understand this stuff.
But most people who starts a threads looking for help know next to nothing. Not all of them, but the majority. They have such a misconception of what is healthy, or the right way to lose weight - due to how its presented in the media - that its often best to point out the above basic info first. The majority need to be told that. Obviously there's a the few that don't, but where's the harm, its easiest to just move on to the nest bit without going around in the same circles everytime.

oscar_mike · 05-03-2014 10:32am

That's a very fair point, i will keep that in mind. I just assumed that the majority of people are somewhat aware that eating less is a prerequisite to weight loss, and restating that as advice is just plain unhelpful.

Soarer · 05-03-2014 12:10pm

The guy that did Cereal Killers was eating 4000 calories per day @ 70% fat (ish). He lost weight even though he was very lean to start with.
When he reduced his calorie intake back to "normal" rates, his weight went back up by a couple of kilos.

This fella ate approximately 5800 calories a day for 3 weeks and only gained 3 pounds. So you'd imagine it would follow that you'd not have do be in calorie deficit to lose weight?

runawaybishop · 05-03-2014 12:19pm

Soarer wrote: »

The guy that did Cereal Killers was eating 4000 calories per day @ 70% fat (ish). He lost weight even though he was very lean to start with.
When he reduced his calorie intake back to "normal" rates, his weight went back up by a couple of kilos.

This fella ate approximately 5800 calories a day for 3 weeks and only gained 3 pounds. So you'd imagine it would follow that you'd not have do be in calorie deficit to lose weight?

No, you absolutely must be in a calorie deficient. Even the blog you linked says quite clearly that his energy expenditure must have increased.

Unscientific single person studies from someone looking to sell something should not be taken as gospel. You cant lose weight by eating more than you burn off.

Mellor · 05-03-2014 12:56pm

Soarer wrote: »

The guy that did Cereal Killers was eating 4000 calories per day @ 70% fat (ish). He lost weight even though he was very lean to start with.

When he reduced his calorie intake back to "normal" rates, his weight went back up by a couple of kilos.

This fella ate approximately 5800 calories a day for 3 weeks and only gained 3 pounds. So you'd imagine it would follow that you'd not have do be in calorie deficit to lose weight?

The issue with ridiculous high fat intake (I'd consider eating a large fat only surplus to be ridiculous), is that it can be a bit rough on you digestion and "food" can run through you quite quickly, meaning you are losing calories.

SantryRed · 10-03-2014 10:04pm

Have been doing this a week and already the results have been showing which is pretty incredible, I presume it's mostly water weight I have lost. I'm concerned that I'm not eating enough fat yet but the protein is good, as I don't want to lose any muscle as I'm 180 pounds and looking to trim a stone off at most.

My macros are as follows:

Protein: 146g
Fat: 97g
Carbs: 21g
Calories: 1575

My maintenance calories is at 2,322 so I am way down on that and I need to get my fat up too, so I'm hoping to kill two birds with one stone. Following American people, bacon is a huge part of adding both calories and fat, but here in Ireland, our rashers are filled with protein and don't have as much calories or near as much fat.

Could anyone recommend where I'd get proper American style bacon? Or what would be a good snack or addition to my food to bring up my fat intake a lot? I currently have a good bit of cheese/butter with both my lunch and dinner.

Thanks.

oscar_mike · 10-03-2014 10:11pm

You could try peanut butter. Fresh cream either. Nuts are relatively high in fat also.

Mellor · 11-03-2014 12:23am

SantryRed wrote: »

Following American people, bacon is a huge part of adding both calories and fat, but here in Ireland, our rashers are filled with protein and don't have as much calories or near as much fat.

Not sure where you got that idea.
Irish rashers aren't "filled with protein". I doubt they are significantly different to American.
Compared to other meats, the are pretty low in protein they are also high in fat, and by extension calories. Twice the calories of lean meat.

Done bacon is no harm, but I don't think its a good idea to get the build if you fat from it as there's a lot if sodium and other stuff that's cone along too.

MaceFace · 11-03-2014 7:55am

SantryRed wrote: »

Have been doing this a week and already the results have been showing which is pretty incredible, I presume it's mostly water weight I have lost. I'm concerned that I'm not eating enough fat yet but the protein is good, as I don't want to lose any muscle as I'm 180 pounds and looking to trim a stone off at most.

My macros are as follows:

Protein: 146g
Fat: 97g
Carbs: 21g
Calories: 1575

My maintenance calories is at 2,322 so I am way down on that and I need to get my fat up too, so I'm hoping to kill two birds with one stone. Following American people, bacon is a huge part of adding both calories and fat, but here in Ireland, our rashers are filled with protein and don't have as much calories or near as much fat.

Could anyone recommend where I'd get proper American style bacon? Or what would be a good snack or addition to my food to bring up my fat intake a lot? I currently have a good bit of cheese/butter with both my lunch and dinner.

Thanks.

I think you need to revisit your maintenance calories. Not knowing your bodyfat %, it is hard to give an accurate guess of what it should be, but 6ft 1", 180lbs, male (I assume), train 4-5 times a week.....
your maintenance calories would be closer to 2700.
That is about over a 40% deficit which will guarantee you will lose muscle.
Here is a very good keto calculator.

BTW - even if your maintenance calories were 2322, that would still be > 30% deficit which is too much.

You're height/weight ratio doesn't sound bad on paper, but again, knowing your bodyfat%, and age would help. I have seen people train like lunatics who still look skinny fat which I attribute to lack of proper resistance training in their program. This could be of help to you.

Back on topic - I think you need to up your fat intake significantly (at least 170g/day).
Easiest...
Exec Coffee - coffee, 10g coconut oil, 5g butter, blend.
Other foods I often use...
Cheese, Caesar dressing, olive oil, salmon, Eggs, Sausages (careful of carbs), nuts (careful of calories), Avacado, fatty cuts of meat.

Good list here

SantryRed · 11-03-2014 7:29pm

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure where you got that idea.
Irish rashers aren't "filled with protein". I doubt they are significantly different to American.
Compared to other meats, the are pretty low in protein they are also high in fat, and by extension calories. Twice the calories of lean meat.

Done bacon is no harm, but I don't think its a good idea to get the build if you fat from it as there's a lot if sodium and other stuff that's cone along too.

I had a google and assumed ours were actually back bacon? According to google, I got this: https://www.google.ie/search?q=back+rasher&oq=back+rasher&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2944j0j4&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8#q=back+bacon

Nurtition facts on the right hand side.

SantryRed · 11-03-2014 7:31pm

MaceFace wrote: »

I think you need to revisit your maintenance calories. Not knowing your bodyfat %, it is hard to give an accurate guess of what it should be, but 6ft 1", 180lbs, male (I assume), train 4-5 times a week.....
your maintenance calories would be closer to 2700.
That is about over a 40% deficit which will guarantee you will lose muscle.
Here is a very good keto calculator.

BTW - even if your maintenance calories were 2322, that would still be > 30% deficit which is too much.

You're height/weight ratio doesn't sound bad on paper, but again, knowing your bodyfat%, and age would help. I have seen people train like lunatics who still look skinny fat which I attribute to lack of proper resistance training in their program. This could be of help to you.

Back on topic - I think you need to up your fat intake significantly (at least 170g/day).
Easiest...
Exec Coffee - coffee, 10g coconut oil, 5g butter, blend.
Other foods I often use...
Cheese, Caesar dressing, olive oil, salmon, Eggs, Sausages (careful of carbs), nuts (careful of calories), Avacado, fatty cuts of meat.

Good list here

Thanks a lot for your help. I'd say looking at the pictures that I'm about 17-18% body fat. Looking to reduce that to about 12% in time for the summer. I'm 22 if that helps. Thanks a lot for your help though. I think I'm consuming too much protein instead of fat at the moment. Will work on it!

Ketogenic diet with a carb day?

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