On this day in 1981 Bobby Sands began his Hunger Strike

ChicagoJoe

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry played a bigger part in the peace process. The ira bombed themselves in to an untenable position.

The difference being, thanks to the likes of Bobby Sands, they had no say in the matter.

Who the f**k were they

Fratton Fred

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Who the f**k were they

Are you sick, or just stupid?

Jawgap

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

SF/IRA must be the only political organisations that are called both fascists and communists down the years !!!

Appearently Thatcher secretly admired their courage " But privately, Lady Thatcher admitted to having a certain admiration for Bobby Sands and nine other prisoners who died on hunger strike, saying she had to “hand it” to them "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/10010531/Margaret-Thatchers-secret-admiration-for-IRA-hunger-strikers.html

To be honest, I don't think they knew or know themselves.

They were and are the great opportunists and the fact they were willing to hop into bed (metaphorically speaking, of course) with Stalin, Mao, Kim Il Sung and Hitler, probably says all we need to know about them.....

......because there's four people you really want your leaders cite when discussing their influences.......

jonniebgood1

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Who the f**k were they

The smiley faces do not make this either a joke or funny.
Infraction.

Moderator.

jonniebgood1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry played a bigger part in the peace process. The ira bombed themselves in to an untenable position.

The difference being, thanks to the likes of Bobby Sands, they had no say in the matter.

Totally irrelevant and unproveable links/ comparisons between victims of both sides are not helpful.

tac foley

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Who the f**k were they

Image not shown - Broken hearted: Marie Comerford at the funeral of her son Jonathan, in 1993.

A mother died of a broken heart 16 years after her three-year-old boy was killed by an IRA bomb, a coroner said yesterday.


Marie Comerford suffered a fatal heart attack on the anniversary of her son Jonathan Ball's murder.

He died of horrific injuries after a bomb planted in a litter bin exploded in Warrington town centre in 1993.

His babysitter watched him die after the explosion which killed another 12-year- old boy and injured 54 others.

In the years after his death Mrs Comerford became extremely depressed and reclusive, an inquest heard.

Weeks before the 53-year-old was found dead at home in March, she stopped eating and refused medical treatment for her breathing difficulties.

Janet Napier, deputy coroner for Cheshire, told the inquest in Warrington:

'It [Jonathan's death] was an unbelievable tragedy and I do think her decline is linked to the incident. Really in a way she died of a broken heart. She had found happiness with a little lad being born then this terrible thing happened when he was taken from her and was never the same again after that.

'She gave up on everything with the tragedy in 1993. She died due to natural causes but of course we know what was breaking her heart.'

The IRA explosion on 20 March also fatally injured Tim Parry, 12, whose life support machine was turned off weeks later.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1235068/Mother-boy-3-killed-IRA-bomb-died-broken-heart.html#ixzz2wcHjbnXE
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

tac

pedroeibar1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry played a bigger part in the peace process. The ira bombed themselves in to an untenable position.

The difference being, thanks to the likes of Bobby Sands, they had no say in the matter.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Totally irrelevant and unproveable links/ comparisons between victims of both sides are not helpful.

I completely disagree with your comment which is grossly inaccurate in the context of FF's earlier post.

Twenty one years ago (almost to the day) a provable act of terrorism – the planting of 2 bombs in a busy shopping street killed two innocent small boys (Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry) and injured about 60 innocent people. That event led to the creation of a Foundation to support victims and veterans of conflict and terrorism and to help them move on with their lives. It also works to build communities without prejudice and discrimination.

Those murdered kids and maimed civilians were victims, they had no choice. Sands was not a victim – he had a choice, but he was encouraged by his political masters to play hardball with a tough opponent. He, as expected, lost. His political heirs continue to trot out the tripe that has been repeatedly rejected by the people of this island.

Why then in your view is it not helpful to ask what has the PIRA done since then to justify no comparison being made with their 'work' and the achievements of the Tim Parry & Jonathan Ball Foundation for Peace?

Jawgap

Aside from agreeing with @pedroeibar1, Tac and FF I'm not going to add anything.

I will observe, however, that I think certain posts are intended to be as provocative as possible to derail and drag the thread in a direction that moves it away from the original statements made by the OP.

I think at this point the OP should just admit that his assertions about Sands have no other basis than his opinion. While respecting his right to voice an opinion, I think he / she should just admit that an opinion, no matter how passionately, held is just that - an opinion.

The list of events held to commemorate what would have been his 60th birthday is instructive as to the lack of regard in which he was held.

And apparently "At the time of Nelson Mandela’s death, Russia Today, compared the ANC leader with Bobby Sands."

.....and last October a translation of Bobby Sands’ diary won the Italian Cultural Association LETTERATURE DAL FRONTE (Cassino) prize.

.....and last Sunday there was a 6v6 SOCCER () game in San Diego to commemorate his birthday.......

Santa Cruz

Don't forget all the participants in Operation Transformation who got such inspiration from his weight loss

rockatansky

tac foley wrote: »

Image not shown - Broken hearted: Marie Comerford at the funeral of her son Jonathan, in 1993.

A mother died of a broken heart 16 years after her three-year-old boy was killed by an IRA bomb, a coroner said yesterday.


Marie Comerford suffered a fatal heart attack on the anniversary of her son Jonathan Ball's murder.

He died of horrific injuries after a bomb planted in a litter bin exploded in Warrington town centre in 1993.

His babysitter watched him die after the explosion which killed another 12-year- old boy and injured 54 others.

In the years after his death Mrs Comerford became extremely depressed and reclusive, an inquest heard.

Weeks before the 53-year-old was found dead at home in March, she stopped eating and refused medical treatment for her breathing difficulties.

Janet Napier, deputy coroner for Cheshire, told the inquest in Warrington:

'It [Jonathan's death] was an unbelievable tragedy and I do think her decline is linked to the incident. Really in a way she died of a broken heart. She had found happiness with a little lad being born then this terrible thing happened when he was taken from her and was never the same again after that.

'She gave up on everything with the tragedy in 1993. She died due to natural causes but of course we know what was breaking her heart.'

The IRA explosion on 20 March also fatally injured Tim Parry, 12, whose life support machine was turned off weeks later.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1235068/Mother-boy-3-killed-IRA-bomb-died-broken-heart.html#ixzz2wcHjbnXE
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

tac

Pointless post, you could post hundreds of similar stories of grieving families from both the nationalist and Republican Community who's children were killed 20 years before that ever happened.

Edit- just seen the post previous.

rockatansky

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Who the f**k were they

Jesus Are you for real???

rockatansky

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Your comment illustrates the twisted ‘logic’ of some supposedly Republican individuals. Supposedly Republican because they have no idea of what Republicanism is about, nor yet democracy.

If I suffer from such twisted logic with regards to Republicanism and Democracy, please do tell how a Catholic man of 19 years of age in 1969 Ulster should have handled having no right to a job, no right to a home, no right to vote and no right to an education. Not only having a community hating him and his family and buring them out of their family home purely because of his religion, but also has to deal with a Police Force who's main objective was to secure the Protestant State for its Protestant People. Seeing as you are the one with all of the logic of Reublicanism and Democracy, do tell what was the correct way for him and every other man and woman in his positon to handle this situation?

I am not in any way saying that any of the above reasons justify the Warrington bombings . I could go on an on for a very long time about how many acts of sheer madness and utter stupidity that were carried out by the IRA, be it bombs in shopping Centres, Restuarants, Proxy Bombs etc....when Civilians were the targets it was Murder, no excuses. Some of their actions have done irreparable damage to the Republican Movement.

However at the end it was the state created by the British Goverment for the Protestant people of Ulster that is responsible for the troubles. As a resident of the South I would never have condemned anyone in that situation for taking up arms, because i believe I would have done the same if I was left in that situation.

You obvioulsy believe that the Catholic Population had no right to defend themselves against this, therefore can you please tell how this true Republicanism or Democracy should have handled this for the better of the Catholic Population??

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It is inaccurate because at no time did I suggest that Sands was responsible for Omagh, he was dead almost two decades when that happened, an atrocity where twenty-nine people died and more than 200 were injured. All of them innocent.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to mention the Omagh Boming on a Thread about Bobby Sands, yet you've done it twice so far. Its blantantly obvious why you have and it is not going to work.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Even today Sinn Fein will never condemn any past IRA action, murder, bombing, atrocity, disappearance, whatever because in their twisted logic it would be ‘dishonourable’ to the ‘sacred memories’ of their ‘martyrs’. The real reason is that they are too cowardly to say anything negative because of a fear of losing a few votes from a rabid, tiny minority.

Sinn Fein will never condemn any actions ever carried out by The Provisional IRA and it is absoutely right that they never do. If you are waiting for this to happen then I can save you some time and don't because its never going to happen.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The real reason is that they are too cowardly to say anything negative because of a fear of losing a few votes from a rabid, tiny minority.

Have to laugh at this one. Sinn Fein are on course to become the largest Political Party in Northern Ireland. The DUP are starting to come apart without Paisley, Peter Robinson isnt even an MP. Many on boards were adamant that Gerry Adams didn't stand a chance of getting elected to the Dail. Then Suprise suprise, tops the Poll. So again your 'Tiny Minority' comment is just wrong.

Its not about ' ‘dishonourable’ to the ‘sacred memories’, where you got this from I dont know. Its about Sinn Fein Leading both the Republican and Nationalist Communities forward in this process and into the future. Families from both Communities who have both given and lost so much to the the movement Sinn Fein claim to Lead. Any you expect Sinn Feing to apologies for this? Can you honestly really not see why they cant and wont do it??

If it did happen, the only people who would benifit would be the dissident movement. They would be the only winner in all of this, no one else. To think otherwise is kidding yourself.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

We are more than 80 posts into this thread and not one Sands supporter has provided a valid suggestion to back up the views in the opening post. (In case you’ve forgotten it, it was the nonsensical ‘How this country could do with Bobby Sands today, the time is coming that we will soon hear the laughter of our children.

I cant answer that question, I have no idea how Bobby Sands would do today. I think its fair to say that nobody can. To many in the Rebublican movement led the charge that stood up to Magaret Thatchers Governemnt and paid the ultimate price for it. If you dont think thats admirable then thats fine. We're not here to try and change your mind.

rockatansky

Jawgap wrote: »

And apparently "At the time of Nelson Mandela’s death, Russia Today, compared the ANC leader with Bobby Sands."

Both Leaders of an Armed Political struggle and a Group of Political Prisoners. Both Elected to Government. The ANC and Sinn Fein have very close links. Gerry Adams attended both of their funerals.


They're not far off it.

rockatansky

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Don't forget all the participants in Operation Transformation who got such inspiration from his weight loss

Hilarious, I'm guessing by how old that joke is that you didn't make it up yourself??

rockatansky

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

many of those historically closely associated with him are RIRA thugs. Not that I expect an erudite, or even straightforward honest answer......

Sorry, Have you clarified who the 'Many' are who were closely associated with him who are now RIRA thugs??

Jawgap

rockatansky wrote: »

Both Leaders of an Armed Political struggle and a Group of Political Prisoners. Both Elected to Government. The ANC and Sinn Fein have very close links. Gerry Adams attended both of their funerals.


They're not far off it.

Makes you wonder why only Russia Today - the pro-Putin mouthpiece - picked up on it.

If that's the peg on which Sands historical significance is being hung, then it's an insubstantial cloak of importance.....

pedroeibar1

rockatansky wrote: »

I cant answer that question, I have no idea how Bobby Sands would do today. I think its fair to say that nobody can..

So, we are finally approaching an answer to the OP question and claims. About time.

rockatansky

Jawgap wrote: »

Makes you wonder why only Russia Today - the pro-Putin mouthpiece - picked up on it.

If that's the peg on which Sands historical significance is being hung, then it's an insubstantial cloak of importance.....

Here's a suggestion, Instead of relying on others to make comparisons for you, why don't you try researching both yourself and come to your own conclusions.

rockatansky

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

So, we are finally approaching an answer to the OP question and claims. About time.

No 'finally' about it. Here's my answer that I gave on page one of this thread, it's effectively what I've said in my most recent post:

rockatansky wrote: »

I don't believe that anybody who takes such course of action (hunger strike) can be 'hero worshiped'. I do believe he and all the others who participated in the blanket and Hunger strikes showed a strength and determination that can only be admired by those who find themselves in a similar situation.

Now that I've cleared that up for you, is it possible you could provide more information on the 'many' who are now RIRA thugs??

rockatansky

rockatansky wrote: »

No 'finally' about it. Here's my answer that I gave on page one of this thread, it's effectively what I've said in my most recent post:




Now that I've cleared that up for you, is it possible you could provide more information on the 'many' who are now RIRA thugs??

Also, would it be possible to address the point regarding 'twisted' Republicans and their views on Democracy also?

Jawgap

rockatansky wrote: »

Here's a suggestion, Instead of relying on others to make comparisons for you, why don't you try researching both yourself and come to your own conclusions.

To be honest I got it from the Bobby Sands Trust website......

http://www.bobbysandstrust.com/archives/category/news

I was just parroting what they were saying about him...........

rockatansky

Jawgap wrote: »

To be honest I got it from the Bobby Sands Trust website......

http://www.bobbysandstrust.com/archives/category/news

I was just parroting what they were saying about him...........

Maybe I misunderstood you, is your issue with the comparison made between Sands and Mandela or that it was it that was made by the RT News Agency? In which case is it really relavent who made it. It's either right or wrong?

con___manx1

On the first day of Bobby's hunger strike he writes in his diary of the last meal . He writes the irony of it contain an orange and yes it tasted very bitter ; )

Jawgap

rockatansky wrote: »

Maybe I misunderstood you, is your issue with the comparison made between Sands and Mandela or that it was it that was made by the RT News Agency? In which case is it really relavent who made it. It's either right or wrong?

My point has nothing to do with either. I'll spell it out a bit clearer......

I assume that the Bobby Sands Trust website is the 'one stop shop' for all, or certainly, the bulk of information about him?

It was what would have been his 60th birthday recently.

Normally when such significant dates occur for historically relevant figures there are events - for example, conferences discussing their impact, essays or articles in specialist journals and mainstream media, perhaps a documentary, maybe a re-showing of a film if one was made about them etc etc etc

In this case, for Sands, the Trust website seems to have missed out on chronicling the events or maybe they didn't happen? The site mentions:

.....an article published in a British newspaper discussing a film loosely based on Sands' life (which was largely financed by a corporation in the ownership of the British government)

.....the award last year of some Italian literature prize to someone who wrote a book about him

.....a brief statement by Christy Moore

.....a SOCCER game in San Diego - not a Gaelic football or hurling match or even a mini-tournament, but a 6 on 6 indoor soccer game - if they had 12 players why not have a handball competition instead?

So, maybe I'm missing something, but out of that list which one suggests that Sands was a historical figure?

The point about the Russia Today comparison is straightforward - only Russia Today made that comparison. One news agency, in one country? In all the coverage of Mandela's death and funeral, all the tributes that must have been written.......the profiles.......the obituaries.......the articles discussing every aspect of his life........and only one news agency in one sentence mentions Sands? And you and the OP still reckon Sands was historically relevant, and internationally respected???

Jawgap

Found the Russia Today piece.......

http://rt.com/op-edge/ireland-human-rights-defender-998/

It ends with the following disclaimer......

The statements, views and opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RT.

So even Putin's mouthpiece doesn't editorially accept the comparison......

jonniebgood1

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Totally irrelevant and unproveable links/ comparisons between victims of both sides are not helpful.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I completely disagree with your comment which is grossly inaccurate in the context of FF's earlier post.

Twenty one years ago (almost to the day) a provable act of terrorism – the planting of 2 bombs in a busy shopping street killed two innocent small boys (Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry) and injured about 60 innocent people. That event led to the creation of a Foundation to support victims and veterans of conflict and terrorism and to help them move on with their lives. It also works to build communities without prejudice and discrimination.

It is irrelevant to the OP.
There is no link between this tragedy and the main topic in this thread. There are tragedies on both sides and this is what I refer to when I advise against "unproveable links/ comparisons between victims of both sides". For example do we compare the victims of Bloody Sunday with those of Warrington or Manchester. Fred linked this tragedy to Bobby sands which is a ridiculous and unproveable link. Can that ever be factually proven? of course not. So while listing details as you have above as an extension of Freds point may be seen as empathetic it can be of no assistance to the threads topic, rather it helps those who have been asking for the thread to be closed down in their aim.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Why then in your view is it not helpful to ask what has the PIRA done since then to justify no comparison being made with their 'work' and the achievements of the Tim Parry & Jonathan Ball Foundation for Peace? .

You are making the discussion absurd.
Why not ask similar questions regarding Thatcher not allowing prisoners the rights they wanted as against the IRA prisoners work in peace partnership in the 1990's and 2000's?

The answer is that it would be an irrelevant link, nothing to do with this thread, perhaps spurious in an attempt to derail thread, etc.

In looking at the last part of the thread this seems to have been successful which seems to support my initial point about not being helpful, which has been ignored.

Fratton Fred

A claim was made that Bobby Sands helped pave the way for the peace talks, I simply refuted that claim by using a more likely scenario.

Post Eniskillen, support for an armed campaign was on the decline. The second Warrington bomb all but killed it off, hence the ira had little choice but to discuss a cease fire.

As I said, the murders of Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry is much more significant in terms of the peace process.

rockatansky

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A claim was made that Bobby Sands helped pave the way for the peace talks, I simply refuted that claim by using a more likely scenario..

Bobby Sands (along with the other hunger strikers) running for and winning a seat in the Westminster elections (and Dail) strengthened the position of those in the Republican Community that believed it was vital that a strong Political base was maintained and grown in strength in parallel with the military wing. It helped solidify Gerry Adams position that would in future enable him to bring the vast majority of the Republican movement along with him and Sinn Fein during the Good Friday Negotiations and avoid a big split in the movement.

Their actions played a much bigger part than the fallout of the Warrington Bombings in terms of the Peace Process.

marienbad

rockatansky wrote: »

Bobby Sands (along with the other hunger strikers) running for and winning a seat in the Westminster elections (and Dail) strengthened the position of those in the Republican Community that believed it was vital that a strong Political base was maintained and grown in strength in parallel with the military wing. It helped solidify Gerry Adams position that would enable him to bring the vast majority of the Republican movement along with him and Sinn Fein during the Good Friday Negotiations.

Their actions played a much bigger part than the fallout of the Warrington Bombings in terms of the Peace Process.

How do you measure that ?

rockatansky

marienbad wrote: »

How do you measure that ?

By Gerry Adams and Martin Mcguinness serving as MLA's and Ministers in the Power Sharing executive. All other political leaders from the past 30 years North, South and in the UK have fallen by the wayside (With the exception of Peter Robinson, but lets be honest he's not exactly on stabr ground is he). They are left standing.

The IRA decommissioning of their arsenal again without any major split in the ranks. Sinn Feins continued political growth where they stand a very good chance of being the largest party in the 6 counties, as well as potentially being the largest party in opposition in the South.